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v8fbird
August 8, 2006, 12:28 PM
I've always disliked the NRA (pro-gun control); that's why I've never become a member. I use their range, and I took their class, but I figure that is different than offering direct monetary support. Anyway, I took my CCW class yesterday night.

Here are the problems I had; you all can let me know what you think:

#1 - While showing us how to hold a gun, the guy stressed keeping the hand as high on the backstrap as possible. When he demonstrated, he actually had the skin between his thumb and pointer finger stretched up and ON the slide of his Glock. As most of the people in the class were novice shooters, I can just see someone going to their range time and getting their hand pretty chewed up when they follow his instructions.

#2 - TWO minutes after the guy talks condescendingly about "NEVER POINTING YOUR GUN AT ANYONE," he comes walking around the room showing his "proper" grip, and as he shows the girl next to me the barrel of the gun is pointed directly between my eyes. COME ON.

#3 - They said that people ALWAYS should keep their firearms and ammo SEPARATELY in the home. Not "if you have kids" or any other qualification. Apparently it is the NRA's position that you keep your gun upstairs and your ammo downstairs.

#4 - Then a lady went over what to do if stopped. She pointed out that, in VA, you have no legal obligation to tell a LEO you have either a permit or a gun. But she said that you should tell them anyway. When asked what would happen, she said "Because the officer might look on his computer, find you have a gun, think it is suspicious that you didn't tell him before, and if you make a furtive movement towards your wallet or something, he could shoot you, AND YOU WOULD DESERVE IT." So if you have broken no laws, done nothing wrong, you deserve to be SHOT.

#5 - Direct quote about open carry in VA: "NRA does not recommend open carry; if you do, you're an idiot, asking for trouble. DON'T DO IT. It's your right. DON'T DO IT." That one speaks for itself.

#6 - Direct quote about places off limits for concealed carry: "places of worship; there are some exceptions, only the pastor can grant it, usually to the treasurer."

I attended a Virginia CLE class about VA Firearms Law. We discussed this. The VA Code says you can't carry in a place of worship "without good & sufficient reason...while a religious meeting is being held." (Sec. 18.2-283)

Basically, nobody knows that "good and sufficient reason" means. It hasn't really been challenged in court to my knowledge; plenty of people carry in church and I don't think anyone has had problems with it.

The part about pastors giving exceptions being part of the law was, quite simply, fabricated.

#7 - The woman again, about not shooting fleeing felons: "A policeman's not gonna shoot a fleeing felon, so you don't do it either." Obviously you can't shoot someone in the back. But to say that cops don't shoot fleeing felons! Anyone ever watch COPS???


Other things I didn't like:

#8 - We were told to just release the slide in an empty gun and let it fall on an empty chamber. I've always heard this is hard on the gun, I always just use my hand to let the slide forward gently. Maybe I don't have to, but I have no idea why their way is MORE RIGHT and why I got yelled at about my way.

#9 - We were told not to use the slide release button when reloading, but to just rack the slide. Again, this was put forward as the ONLY right way to do it.






Obviously, I went into this class disliking the NRA, and detesting the fact that Leviathan must license me to exercise my God-given rights. But I do think that at least some of my concerns are valid. Let me know what you guys think.

281 Quad Cam
August 8, 2006, 12:41 PM
Don't put another thought into it.

My CCW class was also an NRA type thing or some such...

Guy did alot of talking about why you shouldn't use Glocks because their "Tri-action" system isn't safe.

Alot of strange information going around in these meetings. But I believe that all of the instructors have their own brand of strange - and that, while yours was worse than mine... You shouldn't worry about what these guys say for very long after you leave.

Dreadnought
August 8, 2006, 12:42 PM
Would you mind sending me a message about through whom this course was offered if other than NRA itself? I didn't know about 8, and I usually let the slide chamber the first round in a mag. It sounds like both were interjecting (without prudence) their personal beliefs within the course material. And that guy must be a jackass for no. 2.
As for open carry, I do it, my instructor at the range does it, lots of other people do it. Why shouldn't you exercise your right by law? If you go along those lines of thinking, you shouldn't have guns either. "It's your right. DON'T DO IT."
Telling the cop you are CCW is not required, a friend of mine at work didn't know the cWP is linked to your license and he didn't tell the officer. Officer came back and asked him, "Where's your gun?" He didn't have it, but he didn't get shot either.
I am attending a course tomorrow night offered by the Personal Protection Institute so I can submit my app. for VA CWP. I'll let you know how that goes.

bclark1
August 8, 2006, 12:46 PM
Any time you're taught anything, there's going to be some nonsense. It's merely a result of having people determine what is to be taught and then presenting it.

I got tripped up in the beginning though. You're pro-gun-control but carry? I understand a lot of the at-first-glance paradoxes involved in gun rights, but that really makes no sense. And any articulate shooter can easily explain why gun control is a farce, seeing as it only restricts those who already use their guns lawfully.

azurefly
August 8, 2006, 12:51 PM
It sounds like you were in a class run by jerks who don't know their subject, and don't practice what they preach.

I can't say that I know that the stuff they tried to teach you was the NRA's official word. I imagine it's very possible that it is not.

If it went down like you said, your concerns certainly are valid.


What I would like to hear is that you detailed these problems in a letter to the people who ran the course. (I'd wait til I had my CCW license in my hand, though.) These people need to be told what they are doing and saying wrong. (It might have been unpleasant if you had raised the subjects right there in class and challenged them at the time, so you didn't do wrong by not rising up to do so.)

Really, you should be writing to them, or if they have bosses, to their bosses.


-azurefly

v8fbird
August 8, 2006, 12:59 PM
I'm not pro-gun control, the NRA IS PRO GUN CONTROL. No, I won't explain because it will start a debate. If you want me to explain my position, you can PM me.

v8fbird
August 8, 2006, 01:02 PM
azurefly,

Haha, yeah, I sure didn't say anything in the class. I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.

My eyes did bug a little bit and I sort of giggled when the woman said I deserved to be shot for not telling a cop I was carrying.


Dreadnought,

This was an OFFICIAL NRA course.

mpthole
August 8, 2006, 01:09 PM
Even though this may have been an "official NRA course", the instructors were interjecting their own personal opinions. Rather than condeming the entire NRA training system - which is the de facto go-to group for information on the safe handling of firearms - maybe you should call NRA training headquarters and express your displeasure regarding your specific instructor.

Just a thought.

v8fbird
August 8, 2006, 01:16 PM
mpthole,

I agree that you can't hold an organization responsible for what their instructors say.

These instructors, however, were NRA employees. They were NRA instructors, not independent contractors. So the level of separation from official policy was not what it would have been if they were just some schmucks NRA brought in to teach the course.



But this course is not why I have problems with the NRA. :)

Heist
August 8, 2006, 01:43 PM
PM me the name and location, I know a student filmmaker who is good with hidden cameras and mics, this would make a hilarious "blooper" video.

AAshooter
August 8, 2006, 02:37 PM
I am confused. To my knowledge, the NRA does not offer a CCW course. They recently started rolling out a Personal Protection Outside the Home Course but I doubt very few classes have taken place.

Can you be more specific on exactly which course we are discussing?

tepin
August 8, 2006, 03:47 PM
I just received a copy of "Personal Protection Outside the Home" from the NRA WEB site. 80% of the book is a repeat of "Personal Protection Inside the Home". Even some of the photo images are the same. The good news is that they are in color now. Many of your points / quotes are verbatim from the book. The NRA certainly has its faults and flaws. Sounds like you got a couple of bad instructors that dont know S*** other than what they read from a book. Putting your hand behind the slide of an auto is a bad plan! :eek:

Glad you got your paper :)

Raptor5191
August 8, 2006, 04:10 PM
"#7 - The woman again, about not shooting fleeing felons: "A policeman's not gonna shoot a fleeing felon, so you don't do it either." Obviously you can't shoot someone in the back. But to say that cops don't shoot fleeing felons! Anyone ever watch COPS???"

Police officers are no longer justified in shooting a felon simply because they are fleeing. The individual in question must present an immediate risk of death or great bodily harm to others. Both law and department policy largely prohibits this.

Also...NEVER judge what a police officer can/should do by COPS. Most cops (including myself and my friends that are still active) see that show as a constant reminder of how a lot of guys throw safety to the wind when they get in front of a camera. (Granted: occasionally you will see someone whose head is on a swivel and is on top of the game...but not often).

v8fbird
August 8, 2006, 04:17 PM
"To my knowledge, the NRA does not offer a CCW course."

http://www.nrahq.org/shootingrange/nrahqrange/events.asp

Look at August 7-8.

Tues is the class, Wed is the range time.





In fact, I just got back from the range. It actually was useful. I have always shot off to the left; I've never bothered to figure out why, I have the same clusters as everyone else only 4" to the left at 25'. Turns out I was pulling the trigger with my first knuckle joint instead of the pad at the tip of my finger. We changed that, BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM five through the center X.

v8fbird
August 8, 2006, 04:31 PM
"I just received a copy of "Personal Protection Outside the Home" from the NRA WEB site. 80% of the book is a repeat of "Personal Protection Inside the Home". Even some of the photo images are the same. The good news is that they are in color now. Many of your points / quotes are verbatim from the book."

I'd love to see it, but it's not worth the $20 based on your critique. ;)

Powderman
August 8, 2006, 04:57 PM
v8fbird:

The instructors you ran into were NRA certified instructors. The course was not necessarily orchestrated by the NRA.

Here's what you should do:

1. Contact the NRA Training Division, and tell them forthwith about your classroom experience. Give names and dates.

2. If you want some training, find another school with a good reputation who does not employ clowns.

To the best of my knowledge (and I am an NRA Life Member) the NRA does NOT advocate ANY form of gun control, nor restriction in the right to keep and bear arms in any degree. Anyone who states that they're from the NRA and acts like these people did has something seriously wrong with them.

Savage10FP308
August 8, 2006, 05:16 PM
I have a lot of problems with the original post. First of all, I am dying to know how NRA is pro gun control. Secondly, you should hold a gun however it feels comfortable in your hand, while keeping in mind that you ought to stay clear of the moving parts. You then claim that the instructor pointed his/her weapon at you. If they did then let them know. Just because they know gun safety doesn't mean that they practice it and they need to be reinforced. To the next point, it is not the NRA's policy to keep your ammo and weapons seperate. You don't know what you are talking about. The instructor may have said so, but that doesn't make it NRA policy. Yet another point, if you want to tell a LEO you have a weapon then do so. If not then dont. Who cares what someone else thinks? Which goes along with my next point as well. If you want to open carry then do so. Like you said it is your right! #7 is just plain ridiculous! I have never seen a cop shoot someone in the back on the show COPS. Come to think of it, they don't show shootings on COPS. The "shootings" they show have already happened by the time the officer and camera crew arrives. Your last few points go back to what is comfortable to you! If it is safe and it feels natural to you then do it your way. Quit complaining about it and go on with your life. You aren't a member therefore you dont have to put up with them anymore. Forgive and forget and move on.

smince
August 8, 2006, 05:23 PM
I'm a former NRA Certified Instructor. I never taught anything like that. And I always had the DA come into my classes to instruct on the proper law. Only reason I gave it up was that most people in my area think they were born to shoot and carry and don't need any outside instruction. FWIW, AL has no class requirement to get a CCW.

As for as open carry, it is theoretically legal in AL. IMO, even if 100% legal, I'd still rather carry concealed. Why give away the fact you are armed?

v8fbird
August 8, 2006, 05:43 PM
"I'm a former NRA Certified Instructor. I never taught anything like that. And I always had the DA come into my classes to instruct on the proper law. Only reason I gave it up was that most people in my area think they were born to shoot and carry and don't need any outside instruction. FWIW, AL has no class requirement to get a CCW. As for as open carry, it is theoretically legal in AL. IMO, even if 100% legal, I'd still rather carry concealed. Why give away the fact you are armed?"

You're right about people. As for me, I don't think I am born to shoot or to carry. I haven't been well trained. I'm not a terribly great shot. But at the same time I think the government has no right to make me any of those things before I am allowed to carry concealed. "Shall not be infringed" wasn't followed by "after licensure is obtained." If we keep and bear arms in part to fend off tyranny, what kind of nation do we live in where the state decides who can carry arms?

As for open carry, I've never done it. I probably won't. If someone asked me, I'd probably recommend against it. But there are a lot of Virginians who have been starting to. I am 100% behind them. If someone gets hassled for open carrying, there need to be 10,000 people out there the next day doing the same thing -- just try to hassle us all. If the rights of one can be violated, then none of us have the rights. For it to be official NRA position to NOT exercise one's rights is absurd.

v8fbird
August 8, 2006, 05:53 PM
"First of all, I am dying to know how NRA is pro gun control."

I said I didn't want to start this debate. Start with the preconception that ALL gun control is immoral and unconstitutional. Then go start reading NRA material; it will become clear that while they fight for some things, they quite easily give in to most gun laws on the books today.


"Secondly, you should hold a gun however it feels comfortable in your hand, while keeping in mind that you ought to stay clear of the moving parts."

You're making my point. My problem was that he was teaching it to 23 other people who didn't know any better.


"You then claim that the instructor pointed his/her weapon at you. If they did then let them know. Just because they know gun safety doesn't mean that they practice it and they need to be reinforced."

Again, the point was that he should have known better.

"To the next point, it is not the NRA's policy to keep your ammo and weapons seperate. You don't know what you are talking about."

Apparently. But yeat again, the point was neither did he.


"Yet another point, if you want to tell a LEO you have a weapon then do so. If not then dont. Who cares what someone else thinks?"

Fourth time -- point wasn't that I'm going to listen to him, the point was that he shouldn't have been saying what he said.









"Quit complaining about it and go on with your life. You aren't a member therefore you dont have to put up with them anymore. Forgive and forget and move on."

This is the proper forum to air complaints such as this. If you don't like what I had to say, then "Quit complaining about it and go on with your life. You aren't MY MOTHER therefore you dont have to put up with ME anymore. Forgive and forget and move on."

oldbillthundercheif
August 8, 2006, 06:07 PM
The NRA needs to be informed about this doofus.

As a NRA certified instructor myself, all I can do is wonder where he completed his training. The guys that run the instructor course at Camp Perry every year would not put up with this kind of nonsense.

Please let a friendly NRA person know about this horrendous sham! If they don't know about it, they can't fix it and TRUST ME... they will want to fix this.

Where did you get the idea that the NRA is pro-gun control?
If your definition of gun control is: "holding securely onto your guns untill someone kills you and takes them from you cold, dead hands", then you are right. Otherwise, no dice...

Drop an e-mail to them about this guy for the sake of the rest of us, if not for the NRA. Please... I'm begging you. This must be set right.

Savage10FP308
August 8, 2006, 09:30 PM
you dont need to worry about everyone else. Take care of yourself. If the instructor doesn't know any better then that is his own fault. And to your first comment, yes it does say "shall not be infringed" in the bill of rights. However, that is not how things are today. We should fight for them to be that way again but right now there are laws against that and if you break them then you are just as much a criminal as the guy down the street robbing the local 7/11! You did nothing but prove all of my points in your post so I am glad you are starting to understand.

j-framer
August 9, 2006, 07:45 AM
"First of all, I am dying to know how NRA is pro gun control."

I said I didn't want to start this debate. Start with the preconception that ALL gun control is immoral and unconstitutional. Then go start reading NRA material; it will become clear that while they fight for some things, they quite easily give in to most gun laws on the books today.

Very true, V8fbird. I have gently tried to explain this to people from time to time. The tragic thing is that, although the NRA leaves something to be desired in terms of absolute regard for the RTKBA (demonstrated by their support of much existing unconstitutional legislation), they are the best bet we have to hold onto some semblance of our rights. Therefore, they have my cautious support.

In the moral sewer we live in today, those who will stand up for right no matter what do not have a chance. Though I respect and admire such people, my vote is cast on the side of tact and political savoir, which the NRA exercises in abundance to gain whatever victories it can.

It's a no-win world, isn't it?

WoodsWally
August 9, 2006, 08:20 AM
It probably wouldn't take a lot of searching to find the thread on which I posted a very similar recent experience at the hands of a "certified NRA instructor." I actually think mine was worse because we were taught almost nothing. The emphasis of the "course" was war stories and how not to get sued if you shoot somebody. The extent of the course material provided was the instructor held up a tattered paperback book without comment. He took us shooting on a woods road with no backstop...

In my post, I pointed out that I teach a non-gun related course dealing with state licenses. My course material must be submitted to the state for approval: outlines, quizzes and tests, etc. On the night of my second class I was "audited" by a state inspector. A recent change in law means my students must now pass a state adminstered test after my course. I can assure you, lives are not at stake over the subject matter, but the quality of the teaching is taken seriously.

I suppose some would cry that the student's rights are being infringed since these are state requirements. Well, sometimes the state does things after "we" prove that we're not capable of doing them very well ourselves.

If the NRA is going to promote the value of "Certified Instructors" they should consider themselves obligated to perform some level of quality assurance. From what I have seen based on experience and their own information regarding the certification process it really is a bit of a sham. If you're willing to spend the money to take the instructor's course, they'll certify you forever, no checks, no renewals, no requirements. Sorta like a mail order minister's license or college degree! (Hmmm... if you become a mail order minister can you grant concealed carry rights any where you consider a place of worship?)

I'm certainly not "anti" NRA and am not even interested in a political debate about the organization. I am pro-education and I am pro-responsible behavior. It would appear that we have some doofus NRA Certified Instructors producing uneducated people who do not understand the responsiblities of owning and carrying their weapon. I think that's a problem for all gun owners. I can assure you that you would NOT like to be in the same room with my classmates if a situation developed that meant guns were likely to be drawn.

Instructor ignorance is not just a problem for the instructor. It's a problem for other gun owners and innocent by-standers.

Asking the students to solve the problem by reporting it is putting the cart behind the horse. The damage has been done... how many students will realize they haven't learned or have learned improperly? 50% of the class I was in were clearly there because they needed the certificate to get their concealed carry permit PERIOD. They're done learning. And they may be standing next to you in the 7-11.

Again, if the NRA wants help with "enforcement" then there needs to be a mechanisim... a place to rate instructors on the web site, a hot link or number to call to report problems... these are not really such difficult concepts or ideas. How about requiring the instructor to hand out evaluation sheets at the end of his course that are mailed directly to the NRA? (I'm required to send student evaluations in, btw.)

It's good to see some certified instructors posting here, obviously concerned about what students are getting... since the NRA has accepted the responsiblity of acting as your professional association, you might want to "lobby" them to do the job a lot better.

mbs357
August 9, 2006, 08:31 AM
#8 - We were told to just release the slide in an empty gun and let it fall on an empty chamber. I've always heard this is hard on the gun, I always just use my hand to let the slide forward gently. Maybe I don't have to, but I have no idea why their way is MORE RIGHT and why I got yelled at about my way.

#9 - We were told not to use the slide release button when reloading, but to just rack the slide. Again, this was put forward as the ONLY right way to do it.


So...
Use the slide release when the gun is empty.
But manually rack the slide when you change mags?
How pertarded.

Duxman
August 9, 2006, 08:54 AM
I would just like to point out - that not all instructional classes at the NRA are bad. I took my CCW course at the NRA over 2 years ago, and we had quality instructors.

There was a former FBI agent who covered the legal ground for us. And from reading what I know now, she gave us very good advice as to how to handle being approached by a LEO on a traffic stop while CC a weapon. And how to handle a shooting. (If you ever got involved in one.)

The main instructor was a good one. He taught us safety basics, everyone had their unloaded guns facing the wall. Away from each other. I was very happy with the safety demonstrated in the class.

There was a holster specialist who gave us terrific advice on which type of holsters to use while using CC. That was excellent information and I still remember a lot of it today.

Then the instructor who did my range time was a 30 year veteran and had me tighten up my groupings to 1.5 inches in under an hour.

I was very happy with the money I spent at the class. :cool:

Sorry that you did not have the same experience.

rick_reno
August 9, 2006, 09:36 AM
Probably the content/approach in the class was related more to the instructor than the NRA. Did you challenge him on any of these points? or sit there like a bump on a log getting angry? I know if he'd pointed that gun directly at me while showing it to a classmate, I would have reached up and moved it. No one points a gun at me without a reaction of some kind.

oldbillthundercheif
August 9, 2006, 11:22 AM
When I got my certification it involved an intensive 4-day course with a LOT of required reading and a fairly hard test at the end (including a simulated 1 on 1 range session with a ruthless instructor from the Army Marksmanship Unit standing in as the "student").
Oh, and you had to be Expert qualified with the specified class of firearm to even sign up for each sub-section of the class (thusly, I am only certified as an instructor for smallbore rifle, high-power rifle, service rifle, and smallbore "bullseye" pistol)

My certificate says NRA on it, so I guess this is the standard course for NRA instructors?

The ? means I don't know. That guy I did my test with from the AMU would have probably physically stomped upon these geeks you guys are talking about. Hearing about this stuff is making me want to use that certificate for target-practice.

Sure, the NRA isn't perfect, but it's all we have for throwing around serious political leverage so it's in all of our best interests to get behind it.

v8fbird
August 9, 2006, 11:40 AM
"How about requiring the instructor to hand out evaluation sheets at the end of his course that are mailed directly to the NRA?"



HA. They actually handed out review sheets after we took our range time and then you HANDED them back to them and they READ them as they put them on the pile with the others. I would imagine everyone had nothing but good things to say about the course.

Eghad
August 9, 2006, 12:02 PM
I was lucky as the course I was taking was a class from a local technical institute and was part of the scheduled cirriculum, passing included passing the written exam and the hands on firearms qualification. Imagine a college level course where you spend the class on the pistol range. :D suwheeeet

The instructors were law enforcement officers and marksmanship instructors for the local sherriff's department. They were no nonsense kinda guys when it came to safety and following instructions. The good part of the class was you got the benefit of thier experience and knowledge in the laws for use of force including deadly force. They were able to make clear the written law and the practical application of it out on the street.

Boondoggie
August 9, 2006, 12:32 PM
This is a very interesting thread, but I must reserver judgment.

Firstly there is always two sides to every story, we have been told one.

Secondly

v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.

Why? Did you fail to archive an 80% pass in the written portion? or did you fail to qualify in the practical portion? This would be the only two reasons I am aware of that would restrict you from receiving your certificate.

Speaking as a qualified NRA instructor myself, I can say that there are good instructors and bad ones. The NRA provides a criteria / outline for what some states calls out as a minimum requirement to apply for your CHL. NRA instructors are required to follow these guild lines. But that's not to say that their own personal experiences/preference doesn't some time get integrated. Unfortunately you would be hard push to find an independent CHL class (TDI in Ohio for example) that won't cost you 3, 4 even 5 times that amount that would qualify you for a CHL. I am not saying you get what you pay for, but be realistic, the NRA tries to provide as many people the opportunity to obtain their CHL without having to go through a lot of hoops or expense. That's not to say that anyone should be subjected to danger or any other irresponsible actions.

You stated that the NRA is Pro-Gun control and that's why you will never join, but will not elaborate on this in the thread.

OK, I will respect that. But without the NRA, do you really think you/me/any of us could enjoy such freedom? maybe, maybe not. Personal I don't want to find out.

I am sorry to hear about your experience with this particular group, and as some have already suggested, if you feel you have a legitimate claim regarding any wrong doing on the part of the instructor. You should report it to the NRA with all relevant details. NRA doesn't want anyone discrediting or misrepresenting them and I am sure would appreciate your comments.

skipjack
August 9, 2006, 02:20 PM
Without the NRA, Gore would have probably carried WV, and we would likely be in "President" Gore's second term.

The NRA, as any organization or individual is not perfect. But, they do an awful lot of good holding politicians' feet to the fire on 2nd amendment issues.
They also provide a number of educational and instructive programs that have helped countless students over the years.

In my opinion, before condemning the NRA, you should contact them to address your concerns. If they are not receptive, then you have a legitimate beef with them. So far, all I see is your allegation that you received instruction from some sub-par instructors; something that NRA would probably like to know.

v8fbird
August 9, 2006, 03:03 PM
"Without the NRA, Gore would have probably carried WV, and we would likely be in "President" Gore's second term."

I have to say, I don't really feel BLESSED that it didn't happen...

"The NRA, as any organization or individual is not perfect."

There are alot of MORE perfect organizations than the NRA, such as GOA and JPFO, in that order. If I'm going to give money, I'm going to give it to them. They may not have the political clout, or the huge membership, or the funds that the NRA does, but I have yet to see something from either organization that I disagree with.

oldbillthundercheif
August 9, 2006, 04:04 PM
Thanks for naming those two organizations, they seem to be fighting the good fight. Unfortunately I had never heard of either of them until your post, and that is exactly the problem with them.

You said it yourself... they don't have the massive membership or political clout that the NRA has. Don't worry about giving money to the NRA, they have plenty already and the piddly $25 you would give for a membership makes no difference to the leviathan.

Every membership counts, though. This is a numbers game we are playing and an NRA membership makes it clear which side you are on. If you are a member of the GOA and JPFO you might as well get a membership in the only organization that politicians listen to. Who would that be?

Oh, yeah... the NRA!

CobrayCommando
August 9, 2006, 05:18 PM
The NRA's stance on fully automatic firearms, at least the stance they have taken in public, is confusing to me.

smince
August 9, 2006, 05:25 PM
If you're willing to spend the money to take the instructor's course, they'll certify you forever, no checks, no renewals, no requirements
Funny, I had to renew mine every 3 years.:confused:
Firstly there is always two sides to every story, we have been told one
Similiar to my sig line:
There are (at least) two sides to every story, and the truth is always somewhere in the middle

Boondoggie
August 9, 2006, 07:23 PM
smince - It just goes to show that great minds think alike.

v8fbird - you still haven't answered the question.

v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.

Why? Did you fail to archive an 80% pass in the written portion? or did you fail to qualify in the practical portion? This would be the only two reasons I am aware of that would restrict you from receiving your certificate.

Maybe the missing portion to the rest of this story.

skipjack
August 9, 2006, 07:56 PM
"Without the NRA, Gore would have probably carried WV, and we would likely be in "President" Gore's second term."

I have to say, I don't really feel BLESSED that it didn't happen"

So...the NRA is too much in favor of gun control, but Al Gore isn't? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.


"There are alot of MORE perfect organizations than the NRA"

Actually, there is no degree of perfection; perfection is an absolute.

I think, for whatever reason, you just have an ax to grind with the NRA.
That is your prerogative, but it sounds illogical. I am and have been a member for more years than I care to remember. I don't always agree with
them on every issue...I don't agree with anyone on every issue.

Be glad you have the opportunity to enjoy exercising your right to carry.
I live in Maryland, and carry permits are doled out to only the privileged or well connected.

RandyDTC
August 9, 2006, 11:53 PM
AAShooter:
There have been 6 "personal protection outside the home" classes held at NRA HQ to date. They are thinking about holding a 7th. The lesson plan will be released as soon as all revisions are complete. Once the lesson plan has been released, the people who have attended the training classes at HQ will start teaching it.

v8fbird:
Document your experience with the NRA instructors and call the training department. I am quite sure they will find out what happened.

Randy

Bud Helms
August 10, 2006, 02:47 AM
I agree that you can't hold an organization responsible for what their instructors say.
I disagree. The NRA can and should most certainly be held responsible for what their instructors say, while instructing an NRA-approved course. Now, what may have happened is a local course was offered and the status of the instructors being NRA-certified was touted in advertising for the class. That doesn't mean the class was an approved curriculum by the NRA. I don't have a crystal ball, 'just a thought on how this could happen.

The most amazing thing I read in this thread so far is: Thanks for naming those two organizations, they seem to be fighting the good fight. Unfortunately I had never heard of either of them until your post, and that is exactly the problem with them. This was in reference to GOA and JPFO. I am speechless at this. The only two nationwide alternatives to the NRA.

WoodsWally
August 10, 2006, 08:01 AM
The NRA can and should most certainly be held responsible for what their instructors say, while instructing an NRA-approved course. Now, what may have happened is a local course was offered and the status of the instructors being NRA-certified was touted in advertising for the class. That doesn't mean the class was an approved curriculum by the NRA. I don't have a crystal ball, 'just a thought on how this could happen.

You are definitely correct about the first part... and may be right about the second. Except that I did get my certificate and it says: The National Rifle Association of America - awards this certificate to (my name LOL) as evidence of having attended an NRA Personal Protection Course... it bears the seal of the NRA and signature of the secretary (at the time the certificate was printed, anyway).

I'd say that makes them a bit responsible for my experience: an NRA certified instructor teaching an NRA course.

Unless, of course, it's Al Gore's fault.

I do not have an axe to grind with the NRA... but I do think any organization needs to decide what business they are in and do it well. I make no statements about what the NRA accomplishes (or doesn't) politically, but I do say that if they are going to certify instructors and courses, they accept the obligation to provide at least a modicum of quality control. A failure to do that weakens the credibility of the organization in general.

What would this thread look like if the NRA manufactured or sold guns that didn't work?

oldbillthundercheif
August 10, 2006, 10:53 AM
Yeah, I had heard of the GOA before. I was just trying to make a point. Sorry for removing your speech, Bud.

I would hate to be speechless, I run my mouth all the time :)

skipjack
August 10, 2006, 11:04 AM
Maybe you fellows should have taken GOA's instructional course.

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 11:21 AM
Boondoggie,

v8fbird - you still haven't answered the question.
Quote:
v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.
Quote:
Why? Did you fail to archive an 80% pass in the written portion? or did you fail to qualify in the practical portion? This would be the only two reasons I am aware of that would restrict you from receiving your certificate.
Maybe the missing portion to the rest of this story.

No, I didn’t fail. There were no tests; you can’t fail. UNLESS, I would imagine, you **** off the instructors. That’s why I didn’t try that.

skipjack,

So...the NRA is too much in favor of gun control, but Al Gore isn't? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I said that I can’t imagine things being any worse than under Bush. That does not mean I support Al Gore. Neither does the fact that I don’t like the NRA mean that I like Al Gore. Try thinking a LITTLE outside the box for a minute, the box being your misconception that people necessarily are Republicans or Democrats. I am a Libertarian. I don’t like Bush; I don’t like Gore; I don’t like the NRA. That is far from talking out of both sides of my mouth.

I think, for whatever reason, you just have an ax to grind with the NRA.
That is your prerogative, but it sounds illogical. I am and have been a member for more years than I care to remember. I don't always agree with
them on every issue...I don't agree with anyone on every issue.

Which of my original 9 points did you have a problem with? Why do legitimate problems demonstrate that I have an “axe to grind”? Simply, I DISAGREE with the NRA enough that I won’t be a member. I fail to see how that demonstrates a problem in my logic.

It would appear that YOU have an axe to grind with ME for not supporting the NRA.

And one suggestion...stop being HOSTILE to people and they'll be much more likely to respond to you.

Bud Helms,

What I meant is that you can’t pass judgement against an organization because of something one of its employees taught me to do. But you’re right, NRA is responsible for the course, especially since it wasn’t just NRA-approved, it was an NRA course, with NRA instructors held at the NRA headquarters.


skipjack,

I am a little confused...woodswally and v8, are you the same person?

?????????????

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 11:25 AM
"Maybe you fellows should have taken GOA's instructional course."

So far as I know, GOA does not offer any instructional courses. If they do, I'd be thrilled to know about them and I wonder why I've never heard about them from Larry. :)

GOA will send you to Front Sight in Nevada, though, for a Life Membership donation.

EVVshooter
August 10, 2006, 11:44 AM
Actually #9 is exactly the way you should do it unless you're going to put in a lot of practice hitting the slide release. If you're ever in a stressful situation you lose your "fine motor skills" (hitting that little slide release with your thumb) and are left with only "gross motor skills" (racking the slide with your hand/fist). Watch any IDPA or IPSC match with newer shooters and see how much trouble they have with a reload if they're trying to hit the slide release, then imagine real pressure like being fired at instead of just being timed and you'll see the value of the rack the slide method.

Boondoggie
August 10, 2006, 11:46 AM
v8fbird - No, I didn’t fail. There were no tests; you can’t fail. UNLESS, I would imagine, you **** off the instructors. That’s why I didn’t try that.

I am sorry, I must have miss-understood you.

v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.

Would you care to elaborate? or is this something else you would rather not discuss here on the thread?

There most certainly is a test, and yes you CAN fail. The written portion requires an 80% or higher as a passing grade. There is also the practical portion, both of which MUST be met in order to receive your certificate.

P%^& off the instructors has got nothing to do with passing or a failing, being unsafe or otherwise irresponsible will get you thrown out of a class every time.

Personal feelings about the NRA or any other orginazation aside for the time being, what DID really happen in the class that promted you to post this thread?

RandyDTC
August 10, 2006, 12:04 PM
There most certainly is a test, and yes you CAN fail. The written portion requires an 80% or higher as a passing grade. There is also the practical portion, both of which MUST be met in order to receive your certificate.


I am not certain which course he attended, however, that really doesn't matter.

There is no test for the NRA's (3.5 hour +) FIRST Steps Pistol class.

There is a written test at the end of the NRA's (10 hour) Basic Pistol course, but there is no pass/fail condition associated with it. It is nothing more than a tool for the instructors (and students) to determine how much learning took place.

Randy

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 12:05 PM
"There most certainly is a test, and yes you CAN fail. The written portion requires an 80% or higher as a passing grade. There is also the practical portion, both of which MUST be met in order to receive your certificate.

P%^& off the instructors has got nothing to do with passing or a failing, being unsafe or otherwise irresponsible will get you thrown out of a class every time."


Where do you live? Are you assuming that every state has the same requirements for CCW? Again, THERE WAS NO WRITTEN TEST. THERE WAS NO PRACTICAL TEST.

We sat in a classroom and listened. Then we went to the range and we shot. If there was a practical test I didn't hear a word about it and I must have passed it.

You honestly think that the instructors couldn't have kept me from getting my certificate? You think I should have started an argument with them in front of the class?

Dreadnought
August 10, 2006, 12:15 PM
Last night I attended the Personal Protection Institute's Safe Start class, our instructor turned out to be the founder, Tom Crawford. He was very articulate in his explanations and had a broad knowledge of other states' policies. If you have the opportunity to come to Richmond (Ashland, actually) I highly recommend PPI for your CHL class. I met another of his instructors there, and it seems they are all very well trained and professional.
He only mentioned his recommendation against open carry near the end of his lecture because of the two main disadvantages 1) you look like you are trying to kick up some **** and 2) you lose the tactical advantage of an attacker knowing you are armed. He never said "Don't do it," just that he recommended against it.
I was hypersensitive to the shortcomings v8fbird mentioned about his class and noticed none of them in mine.

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 12:24 PM
"Actually #9 is exactly the way you should do it unless you're going to put in a lot of practice hitting the slide release. If you're ever in a stressful situation you lose your "fine motor skills" (hitting that little slide release with your thumb) and are left with only "gross motor skills" (racking the slide with your hand/fist). Watch any IDPA or IPSC match with newer shooters and see how much trouble they have with a reload if they're trying to hit the slide release, then imagine real pressure like being fired at instead of just being timed and you'll see the value of the rack the slide method."



Yes, that's exactly the reasoning they gave, and it makes perfect sense. That's why I didn't list it under my "problems," just under things I "didn't like." They told us that's just the way it's done -- the only way it's done. They didn't say "for beginners we recommend" or "unless you practice this an awful lot, we recommend." And they told me repeatedly I was doing it "wrong."

I would imagine if you were proficient at both methods that you would find the slide release button much quicker for reloading. There are pluses and minuses to each.

smince
August 10, 2006, 12:26 PM
Again, THERE WAS NO WRITTEN TEST. THERE WAS NO PRACTICAL TEST.

For the CCW permit or the NRA Class? I'm confused:confused:

Did you pass the course or didn't you?

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 12:36 PM
"For the CCW permit or the NRA Class? I'm confused
Did you pass the course or didn't you?"


Why is this so VERY VERY hard to understand??

I posted:

"No, I didn’t fail. There were no tests; you can’t fail. UNLESS, I would imagine, you **** off the instructors. That’s why I didn’t try that."

There are no tests to pass the course. There are no tests to obtain a permit. You have to show up and stay to get your certificate. You have to fill out your application correctly to get your permit.

There were no tests.

I did not have to pass the course.

I completed the course.

I have my certificate.

RandyDTC
August 10, 2006, 12:44 PM
v8fbird - have you contacted the NRA training department regarding your experience in the class?

Randy

skipjack
August 10, 2006, 12:47 PM
"Try thinking a LITTLE outside the box for a minute, the box being your misconception that people necessarily are Republicans or Democrats. I am a Libertarian."

Wow, you garnered all that from my suggestion that you are talking out of both sides of your mouth? You are amazingly talented at reading minds!

In the real world, there were two possible outcomes to the 2000 election.
How many electoral votes did the libertarian party carry? One candidate was and is clearly anti-gun. Interpret as you see fit.

I personally don't care whether you support or join the NRA...I do have a problem with your bitching about a course that you made no objections to at the time of the course, nor have you indicated that you have apprised NRA of the perceived shortcomings. Had you the temerity to point out all these misdeeds to the instructors or NRA HQ, and still remain unsatisfied, then you would have a point.

"So far as I know, GOA does not offer any instructional courses"

Thanks for making the point that GOA and JPFO do not offer education and training programs. They are political animals...albeit much smaller than the NRA. That doesn't diminish their value, but it does put them in a seperate category.

Heist
August 10, 2006, 12:49 PM
You'd think v8firebird had gone out and burned a flag, judging from the unseemly attacks that keep being leveled at him.

Boondoggie
August 10, 2006, 01:02 PM
v8fbird - I completed the course.

v8fbird - I have my certificate.

v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.

Ok, I guess now I am really confussed :confused:

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 01:17 PM
"Quote:
v8fbird - I'd end up dumping $100 and not coming out with my certificate.
Ok, I guess now I am really confussed "


If I had started arguing with them about things, they would have gotten upset. They might have asked me to leave for causing problems. IF THAT HAD HAPPENED, I would have been out my $100 and would not have received my certificate. That is why I kept my mouth shut.

Boondoggie, hopefully this brings us towards closure with your confusion over my plethora of posts which I admit probably are confusing. ;)

"I do have a problem with your bitching about a course that you made no objections to at the time of the course,"

Why? Don't read the thread anymore. Most everyone else seems to think there is something to be gained from reading the thread.

"You'd think v8firebird had gone out and burned a flag, judging from the unseemly attacks that keep being leveled at him."

If I'd actually burned a flag, they'd probably defend it as my right. But criticizing then NRA? That's treasonous! :barf:

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 01:21 PM
"v8fbird - have you contacted the NRA training department regarding your experience in the class?
Randy"

No, I haven't. I may or may not write an anonymous letter. These guys WERE the NRA training department. These guys are some of the NRA's range instructors. These are some of the people that are probably THERE every single time I go to the range. I'd prefer to not have my name remembered and associated with "the guy who had problems with what we taught."

Not to mention the fact that I don't have the time to write every letter and make every call that I would like to.

smince
August 10, 2006, 01:45 PM
Not to mention the fact that I don't have the time to write every letter and make every call that I would like to.
You could have written them several letters in the time you've taken with this thread.:rolleyes:

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 01:55 PM
"You could have written them several letters in the time you've taken with this thread."

And then it could have been trashed by some intern and that be that. Or maybe I'd get a letter back apologizing and promising it would be looked into. At least this way the people who have read the thread know about my experience.

Raptor5191
August 10, 2006, 02:00 PM
v8fbird,

I assume by what you have posted that this is the range you typically shoot at, right?

Is it practical to go somewhere else?

If so, I would name names in regards to their retardidity and poor job, then just go somewhere else.

There is a range here that my wife and I used to go to that had a few guys that felt it was necessary to constantly try to convince everyone how cool they were. My wife and I at first just got a real chuckle over it...apparently they have never learned the lesson that "you never know what they guy you are bragging to might have actually done".

However, it just got REALLY old. Changed homes (ranges) and have been very happy with the change.

RandyDTC
August 10, 2006, 02:07 PM
No, I haven't. I may or may not write an anonymous letter. These guys WERE the NRA training department. These guys are some of the NRA's range instructors. These are some of the people that are probably THERE every single time I go to the range. I'd prefer to not have my name remembered and associated with "the guy who had problems with what we taught."


Why in the world would you even consider writing an anonymous letter? If something isn't right, stand up and ask them about it.

You are mistaken - the people who ran this class are NOT the employees of the training department.


Not to mention the fact that I don't have the time to write every letter and make every call that I would like to.


You had time to write it up for posting on the internet the subsequently defend it. Come on now... that's an excuse.

Randy

Heist
August 10, 2006, 02:07 PM
If I'd actually burned a flag, they'd probably defend it as my right.

Oh, then you obviously haven't heard of that preacher who has announced his intent to murder anyone who burns a flag.

RandyDTC
August 10, 2006, 02:13 PM
And then it could have been trashed by some intern and that be that. Or maybe I'd get a letter back apologizing and promising it would be looked into.


Address the letter(s) to Mr. Lander, Mr, Quandahl, Mr. Howard, and/or Mr. Sipes. Trust me - it will reach the proper desk(s).


At least this way the people who have read the thread know about my experience.


Right - and the people who have read your complaint can do exactly NOTHING for you.

Straight up dude, if you don't have the scrotal fortitude to address this problem with the people who have the ability to make it right for the next person, don't bother posting about it anonymously on the internet.

Randy

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 02:33 PM
Ok,

Randy, smince, here's the real excuse:

I don't WANT to. I am too lazy to. I am not convinced it would do any good. I WANTED to post it here, that's why I posted it here. I don't WANT to write the letter, that's why I probably won't write the letter.

Smince, I'm glad you are so much more of a responsible citizen than am I. Randy, I am glad you are so much braver than my cowardly self.




Raptor,

I really don't know of any other ranges in northern virginia. I know there must be a few, but I seriously doubt they are as easily accessible to me as is the NRA range. Sometimes it is hard to get away from idiots; that's why I figured I would just keep my mouth shut.

I'm glad it worked out for you.



Heist,

Haha, no. I'd be really curious to read about that one. Do you happen to have a link handy?

skipjack
August 10, 2006, 02:38 PM
"Why? Don't read the thread anymore. Most everyone else seems to think there is something to be gained from reading the thread."

Don't read or post unless I agree with you?


"I may or may not write an anonymous letter"

There you go...show 'em what you're made of!:rolleyes:

oldbillthundercheif
August 10, 2006, 02:48 PM
You say that these guys WERE the NRA training department. I have known some of those guys in the past, why don't you go ahead and name names?
If any head-honchos were involved in this silliness I would personally like to know which ones.

If the instructors were at the top of the NRA training program food chain, I guess you must have completed this course around the Washington D.C. area, right?

If not, then they are Local NRA reps and are entirely open to criticism from anyone they may **** off. You are right that the NRA would probably not dismiss their head of training programs just because they irritated one person, but your assumption that your complaint would not be taken seriously is just plain wrong.

They are quite serious about maintaining a safe and normal atmosphere in their programs. Your complaint could help this be reestablished in your area.

If you are so concerned about persecution from the horrible NRA, go ahead and set up an e-mail account without your personal information attached to it and bounce them off an anonymous e-mail.

I'm pretty sure they will not hire south american hitmen to wax you or try to ruin your reputation or whatever else you seem to be so frightened of...

taz-2005
August 10, 2006, 03:11 PM
v8fbird - Did the instructors use the word "weapon" in class? I'm a certified instructor and in my lesson plans it clearly says not to use that word since it has such a negative connotation. Just curious.

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 03:19 PM
"v8fbird - Did the instructors use the word "weapon" in class? I'm a certified instructor and in my lesson plans it clearly says not to use that word since it has such a negative connotation. Just curious."

I honestly can't remember. If I had to guess, I would say no.

Heist
August 10, 2006, 04:03 PM
Are there any NRA instructors who can comment on this and who would maybe open a dialogue with the instructors in the class described? It would be good if they can be "salvaged", so to speak.

v8fbird:
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=208893

The most interesting post mysteriously vanished, but paraphrased, it was like so: "I CCW, and if someone started resisting physically and fighting back while I was beating someone up for burning a flag, I would be justified to shoot them as I am an old man with back problems and it would be a disparity of force. :)"

oldbillthundercheif
August 10, 2006, 04:08 PM
Alright, I guess if this thing didn't irritate you enough to dislodge you from your lazyness, there is something wrong with this story...

It seemed credible to me at first, but now seems to me like this is more about your weird, counterproductive hatred for that only organization that can really make an impact on political gun debate.

I now think that your statements can only be an exageration of what really happened in this class. If it happened exactly the way you said, but didn't irritate you enough to devote 5min of your time to an official complaint...
Well, that's real strange.

Did you even take a CCW class or are you just trying to discredit the NRA instructional programs for some little personal slight you felt was directed your way by some NRA rep way back who knows when?

It was probably well deserved.

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 04:33 PM
"You'd think v8firebird had gone out and burned a flag, judging from the unseemly attacks that keep being leveled at him."



Hey Heist, how about that last one? ;)

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 04:48 PM
"Did you even take a CCW class or are you just trying to discredit the NRA instructional programs for some little personal slight you felt was directed your way by some NRA rep way back who knows when?"



How's that, cupcake?

smince
August 10, 2006, 05:03 PM
I live near Shootrite Academy ran by Tiger McKee, a former Thunder Ranch instructor. Besides true CCW/Defensive handgun courses, he teaches NRA courses. This is how they are broken down on his course schedule.


NRA Certified Instruction
The NRA courses teaches the new owner or beginner to the safe methods of handling and operation of the pistol or rifle. NRA Personal Protection provides the new owner or beginner the basics in using the pistol for self protection.

NRA First Steps Pistol
This basic class introduces the beginner or new owner of a handgun how to safely handle, manipulate, and shoot their particular type of pistol as well as storage and cleaning. 3 hours, 50 rounds


NRA Basic Pistol
Basic Pistol is a complete introduction to all types of pistols. The student will learn how to safely identify, handle, and operate various pistols. Class also covers topics such as ammunition, storage, and the basic firing positions used with the pistol. 12 hours, 300 rounds


NRA Personal Protection
The Personal Protection class teaches the new owner or beginner how to use their firearm for self defense. Starting with the very basics, this class introduces the student to safe handling and firing of the pistol and then expands into self defense applications. Personal Protection also introduces the protective mindset and avoidance tactics. 14 hours, 300 rounds

Anyway, I took my CCW class yesterday night.


First Steps isn't meant or designed to be a "CCW Course".

oldbillthundercheif
August 10, 2006, 05:24 PM
Ha! First Steps... "see that button on your fancy german pistol... that's the magazine release. Nope, not the slide release, the button. No, now keep your finger off that, that's the trigger..."

Is that pretty much how it went down?

A JPFO member who carries a Walther of all things... Interesting.

skipjack
August 10, 2006, 06:05 PM
At least he called you "cupcake"!:)

v8fbird
August 10, 2006, 06:06 PM
"Ha! First Steps... "see that button on your fancy german pistol... that's the magazine release. Nope, not the slide release, the button. No, now keep your finger off that, that's the trigger..."
Is that pretty much how it went down?
A JPFO member who carries a Walther of all things... Interesting."

Alright hotshot, you just made quite a few assumptions, none of which is right.

You assumed that I am a member of JPFO. I am not.

Judging by your suggesting me as a dichotomy for being a JPFO member and carrying a German gun, you seem to assume that I am Jewish. I am not.

I can only guess you assumed I was Jewish because you assumed I was a member of JPFO. Thus you assumed that only Jews can be members of JPFO. That is not the case.

From the JPFO website:

To answer a question we get frequently: You do NOT have to be Jewish to join!
http://www.jpfo.org/member.htm



Finally, you assumed I will be carrying the p99 because that was what I used to qualify. That may or may not be true.



To sum up, I do not belong to JPFO. I am German, by descent, but that has nothing to do with my German gun (actually, it wasn't made in Germany, I don't think). I am Christian, not Jewish. JPFO is open to anyone who supports their cause. I most likely will be carrying a Glock 22.





"First Steps isn't meant or designed to be a "CCW Course"."

When I signed up, they had it listed as their CCW course. When I took it, it was their first steps course. The course was ENTIRELY about carrying concealed. That leads me to believe that their first steps pistol course IS meant to be for CCW.

oldbillthundercheif
August 10, 2006, 06:11 PM
Jeez, sorry... You were the one praising the JPFO and calling the NRA pro-gun-control.

I suspected you were not a descendent of Gideon anyway. Those fine folks tend to try to agressively change a situation they find distasteful, rather than whining endlessly with no action.

I like cupcakes :)

odessastraight
August 10, 2006, 06:31 PM
Well 8bird, I'm not about to pile on here...but I would like to know why you also post as WoodsWally. That just doesn't seem right. Heck, it may even be against the rules.

OK, sorry...I guess I will pile on a bit; Any favorable word, or whatever kind of mealymouthed compliment you gave Gore, ...who was VP for one of the most anti 2nd Ammendment administrations ever,... goes against my grain. At least Bush is pro-gun.

Right WoodsWally?

smince
August 10, 2006, 06:34 PM
http://www.nrahq.org/education/training/basictraining.asp


NRA's FIRST STEPS Program
FIRST (Firearm Instruction, Responsibility and Safety Training) STEPS is the latest addition to the NRA's training programs for new shooters. It provides hands-on orientation to one specific rifle, pistol or shotgun model in as little as three hours, including a one-hour shooting session on a range.
Not "CCW", so now you have another NRA bone to pick at.

Also from the above site:




Since 1871, a major objective of the National Rifle Association has been to provide education and training in the safe and proper use of firearms.
Today, that objective is being fulfilled through the NRA Basic Firearm Training Program. There are 11 different courses in the program being taught throughout the nation by NRA Certified Instructors. NRA Instructors also teach the three-hour FIRST STEPS Orientation Program (rifle, pistol, and shotgun) to introduce new shooters to a particular firearm model.

Instructors provide an invaluable service in their communities by training hundreds of thousands of individuals annually. As firearm and shooting activities expand, and more Americans choose to exercise their right to carry a firearm, so too grows the need for these courses.

You can be the vital element in meeting this need by becoming an NRA Certified Instructor and conducting NRA Basic Firearm Training Courses. As an instructor, you can experience the personal satisfaction of teaching others the basics -- the knowledge, skills and attitudes that will lead to a lifetime of safe, enjoyable and successful involvement in firearm and shooting activities.

The NRA is looking for new instructors who enjoy working with people, want to share their firearm knowledge and skills with others, and are willing to make a commitment to teach NRA training courses in their communities.

The types of courses and instructor ratings available are:

BASIC PISTOL SHOOTING COURSE


NRA Certified Pistol Instructor
NRA Assistant Pistol Instructor
NRA Apprentice Pistol Instructor

BASIC RIFLE SHOOTING COURSE
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Assistant Rifle Instructor
NRA Apprentice Rifle Instructor

BASIC SHOTGUN SHOOTING COURSE
NRA Certified Shotgun Instructor
NRA Assistant Shotgun Instructor
NRA Apprentice Shotgun Instructor

BASIC MUZZLELOADING PISTOL COURSE
NRA-NMLRA Certified Muzzleloading Pistol Instructor
NRA-NMLRA Assistant Muzzleloading Pistol Instructor

BASIC MUZZLELOADING RIFLE COURSE
NRA-NMLRA Certified Muzzleloading Rifle Instructor
NRA-NMLRA Assistant Muzzleloading Rifle Instructor

BASIC MUZZLELOADING SHOTGUN COURSE
NRA-NMLRA Certified Muzzleloading Shotgun Instructor
NRA-NMLRA Assistant Muzzleloading Shotgun Instructor

PERSONAL PROTECTION COURSE
NRA Certified Personal Protection Instructor

HOME FIREARM SAFETY COURSE
NRA Certified Home Firearm Safety Instructor

METALLIC CARTRIDGE RELOADING COURSE
NRA Certified Reloading Instructor

SHOTGUN SHELL RELOADING COURSE
NRA Certified Reloading Instructor

RANGE SAFETY OFFICER COURSE
NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer Instructor


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To qualify as an NRA instructor, you must:

Possess and demonstrate a solid background in firearm safety and shooting skills acquired through previous firearm training (such as completion of an NRA Basic Firearm Training Course) and/or previous shooting experience.
Successfully complete the appropriate NRA instructor examination. Certified—90% or higher. Assistant—85% or higher. Apprentice—85% or higher
Satisfactorily complete an NRA Instructor Training Course for the area of specialization you wish to teach (e.g., NRA Basic Shotgun Course), and receive the endorsement of the NRA Training Counselor conducting your training.
Submit your application with appropriate certification fee. Membership in the National Rifle Association is strongly recommended.
Certified Ratings are available to individuals who wish to be fully qualified to conduct basic courses (21 years of age or older).

Assistant Ratings are available to individuals who wish to assist certified instructors in order to gain the knowledge and experience needed to become a certified instructor (18 years of age or older).

Apprentice Ratings are available to young people who wish to understudy a certified instructor in preparation for more advanced ratings. The apprentice instructor will be chosen by an NRA Certified Instructor from select individuals. These individuals must be of the emotional maturity necessary to handle such a position. In addition, they must have attended and successfully completed an NRA Basic Firearm Training Course in their chosen area of specialization (13-17 years of age).



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Your responsibilities as an NRA Certified Instructor will include:

Conducting NRA Basic Courses in accordance with policies and procedures outlined by NRA
Upholding the quality and integrity of national firearm safety and training standards established by NRA
Promoting firearm safety and the shooting sports
Reporting training data to NRA
Knowing how to shoot is an important requirement for NRA instructors, but you will also need to know how to teach others to shoot. NRA Instructor Training Courses help you develop the additional knowledge, skills and techniques needed to organize and teach courses in the NRA Basic Firearm Training Program. Instructor training courses are conducted by NRA Training Counselors. Training Counselors are active and experienced instructors who have been appointed by NRA to train other (new) instructors. You may request a list of training counselors in your geographic area by contacting the NRA Training Department at 703-267-1430.



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How you benefit by becoming an NRA Instructor:

NRA Certified Instructors qualify to take the NRA Basic Range Safety Officer Course as a validation course. The Basic Range Safety Officer validation course is offered and taken as part of the Home Study Program.
You will soon qualify to become a Training Counselor. In this position, you have the responsibility of teaching (new) NRA Instructors.
Once you receive your certificate (suitable for framing) from NRA, you will receive your identification card. You will also receive a free subscription of the NRA Shooting Education Update, a newsletter published periodically for all NRA Trainers.
Program information, training schedules, book reviews, material updates and more are provided. Additionally, the Update provides an open forum for the exchange of information and ideas on firearm safety and marksmanship education.
You become an even more valuable resource for your community. NRA Certified Instructors are leaders who provide a very important service. Because of your dedication to the shooting sports, you are providing a chance for others to enjoy the same benefits of firearm ownership that you have enjoyed in the past.

skipjack
August 10, 2006, 06:58 PM
Here is a link to the virginia stat police website...

http://www.vsp.state.va.us/cjis_cwp.htm

Technically, this course appears to satisfy the "proof of competence" in VA for ccw. However, it's the most rudimentary of all the NRA courses.
NRA does not refer to it as ccw...

oldbillthundercheif
August 10, 2006, 07:06 PM
Also...
You thought you were going to get CCW instruction, but took a gun with you that you don't intend to carry?

I'm confused about so many things in this conversation I don't know where to start...

Dreadnought
August 10, 2006, 07:18 PM
the course I took was called FIRST Steps and Concealed Firearms Training, or something to that effect (I don't have the certificate with me). We didn't have to bring our own pistols nor did we have to take any tests. The instructor was NRA certified, but I don't think the class was strictly based on NRA directives alone. We also got a hefty book out of it, with a lot of legality discussion. The beginning actually covered a good deal of tactics for avoidance, et c. I am going for his intensive one-day intermediate training class at their private range near PKD off 95. Ought to be pretty fun.:)
He did state at the beginning of the lecture that he was required to offer the live fire training, though it was not necessary to take part.

v8- I know how you feel regarding what you should/could have done/do, but in the end water doesn't go from the sink back into the spigot. You're doing what you think is right, though a POLITE (and I emphasize POLITE) letter to the above-mentioned higher-ups would probably do some good for noobs taking the class down the road. Snail mail would be preferable to email because emails just get lost and or filtered out by spamblockers.

Heist
August 10, 2006, 07:57 PM
I think he is in a state where any basic course is an acceptable prerequisite for a CCW. I recently relocated to Florida, and here a hunter safety course is all you need to apply for a license.

I'm going to deduce, based on the description of events and the course name, that he wanted a simple course to pass in order to be able to apply for his license, and that the operators of the course were touting it as a CCW course, and then added their own spin into the basic NRA guidelines.

Therefore, until he says otherwise, I don't think he was thinking "Ooh, the ultra-basic-newbie-pistol course, I will take this as preparation for my CCW!", I think he was thinking "A course I can take which will let me get my CCW, awesomesauce."

JohnKSa
August 10, 2006, 10:28 PM
A few things...

Being an NRA certified instructor doesn't mean you're an NRA employee. While there may be NRA certified instructors that ARE NRA employees, that is by far the exception. The fact that the class took place at the NRA is, similarly, not evidence that the instructors were NRA employees.

An NRA CI can lose his certification if it can be shown that he deviated from the syllabus set forth by the NRA course material or otherwise failed to teach the course in the approved manner. If you feel that the instructor departed from the material set forth in the course materials then you should bring it to the attention of the NRA training department.

NRA CIs are required to renew their certification (which involves paying a small fee) every three years or so. The rules state that an NRA CI must teach a certain number of courses in order to be elegible for renewal, but that rule is not strictly enforced.

There is an NRA CCW course, but it is very new--a recent development.

And lastly, to respond to the comment that the NRA is pro gun control: There is a difference between compromise and endorsement. Even the rabidly anti-gun Rebecca Peters of IANSA is willing to allow gun owners to retain some firearms--does that compromise make her pro-gun? Hardly.

You're free to disagree with the NRA, I do in many respects. I think it's great that you want them to change--I do too, in many ways. But it's silly to say the NRA is pro-gun control--just as silly as it is to say that Rebecca Peters is pro-gun. Both are willing to compromise to achieve their goals, that is a far cry from either of them endorsing the other's agenda.

RandyDTC
August 10, 2006, 10:33 PM
There is an NRA CCW course, but it is very new--a recent development.


The finally have it (mostly) complete. It is called Personal Protection Outside the Home.

This course has been 'in the works' since 1996.

Randy

Capt Charlie
August 11, 2006, 12:13 AM
Scrotal fortitude???

Cupcake???

Need I say more? :rolleyes:

Closed, with apologies to those who tried to keep this on a civil course