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Revolver Gustav
August 1, 2006, 04:54 PM
I was just wondering of what the exact 'duties' of a CCW holder is. I know the primary purpose of carrying a concealed weapon is to protect your family, yourself, and your properety, but what else? Is it a natural obligation to aid police should they be after a felon near you? If a woman in a back alley or something is being mugged, should you step up and stop him, call the police, or go on about your business? Is it your duty as a CCW user to uphold the law in a loose way after LEOs? Not like a vigilante, but you know--as a citizen. Just wondering.

Glockamolie
August 1, 2006, 04:57 PM
No "duties" whatsoever. Defense of myself or family is definite, at least for me. Defense of another 3rd person is on a case-by-case basis.

Ozzieman
August 1, 2006, 05:11 PM
"aid police should they be after a felon near you?"
That will just get you killed, police are traned and you are not and if they see some one with a gun pulled when there trying to stop a felon its a good chance that in there eyes you are a felon too, best to duck and stay out of there way.
I will tell you a story about helping a Victim.
In the 30’s a great man saw another man roughly push a woman into a car, He pulled out his 38 super and at gun point made the man get out of the car and saved the woman. Come to find out the man was the woman’s husband and they were just playing with each other. The man was General Patton.
The point is if I saw a woman in an alley being beaten up yes I would step in, but when you pull a gun on someone remember you’re responsible for your actions no matter how noble they are.

fairview mick
August 1, 2006, 05:36 PM
In the CCW classes I attended, the primary reason for carry is protection for yourself and family. If you see another felony being committed, run to the other side ot the street, and in the oposite direction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ASAP. Do not play super hero or cowboy. Just as the previous thread stated, the leo could mistake you for more problems and take you out.
DON'T BE A HERO.
Mickey

PinnedAndRecessed
August 1, 2006, 06:22 PM
The only duty here in the state of Oklahoma re CCL holders is that if requested, the holder must function as part of a posse.

Our "instructor" said that no such posse has ever been formed in the state.

axslingerW
August 1, 2006, 06:28 PM
however, I will defend myself and family. I might defend my property. I could not stand by and watch a rape or murder. Beyond that I don't really know. I hope I never have to find out.

Epyon
August 1, 2006, 06:41 PM
A situation where a woman is screaming and crying in a dark alley because of a rapist(s), I'll admit that much of my mind would just want to go in and help but what would you do in that situation? Am I being foolish and naive for trying to do good and help a would-be victim? I just really hate violent criminals and injustice, probably because I used to live in rough neighborhoods as a kid, up until middle school. Glad I'm not one of those goons, and I'm glad I stayed in school.


Epyon

dawg23
August 1, 2006, 07:05 PM
Based on your earlier posts, you are 16 years old.

When you are legally able to carry (in 5 more years), you probably won't feel the need to ask this type of question.

Epyon
August 1, 2006, 07:10 PM
no need to be mudslinging... that's exactly why I don't carry yet. But seriously, leave the insults for someone who deserves them.


Epyon


P.S: 16 year olds aren't allowed on these forums anyway.:)

dawg23
August 1, 2006, 07:19 PM
Dear Epyon:

That wasn't mudslinging - that was a comment.

Yes, 16 year olds are allowed on this forum. However, if you don't want replies, don't post.

pax
August 1, 2006, 07:19 PM
Primary duty of a CCW holder is not to shoot anyone who doesn't need to be dead.

Toward that end, you only draw when there is an immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.

If you're not overwhelmingly sure of the circumstances, and absolutely positively know beyond any tinge of a shadow of a doubt who is wearing the white hat, keep your gun in your holster, get to safety, and call the people who are trained to deal with such questions.

pax

Epyon
August 1, 2006, 07:26 PM
oh okay just making sure. I guess we 16 year olds need to redo our biography in our profile.:p By the way pax, thank you for setting the record straight on having a CCW.


Epyon

Revolver Gustav
August 1, 2006, 07:32 PM
"When you are legally able to carry (in 5 more years), you probably won't feel the need to ask this type of question."

I guess not. I just wanted to know, though. That's why I posted this.

The Real Wyatt
August 1, 2006, 07:37 PM
when you get your Concealed Carry License.

You just then have another tool with which to carry out those duties.

Wildalaska
August 1, 2006, 07:44 PM
Toward that end, you only draw when there is an immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or grave bodily harm to the innocent.

That depends on your jurisdiction

WildeachonediffersAlaska

CDH
August 1, 2006, 07:59 PM
I remember when I took my first CCW class how several people asked about this subject. The officer present jumped ALL over them and made it clear that CCW holders are not in any way part of some kind of law inforcement group.
Only after you have identified a threat who intends to seriously harm you or your immediate family are you to draw your weapon (the officer's very animated suggestion) and take whatever action necessary.

His opinion about putting your life on the line to protect someone else whom you don't know was that:

1. You don't know if you are stepping into a domestic dispute which you have NO business being part of. Cops are even afraid of those deals. Call 911 on your cell phone and report it.

2. You may very well be involving yourself in a situation with an undercover officer in plain clothes in which case you might kill that officer and possibly be brought up on a Capital Murder charge. Just as likely, you could get yourself killed by the officer or his criminal target, in which case, you're just dead and the cop gets a week off with pay while the incident is investigated before going back to work and hoping some other damn CCW fool doesn't make the same mistake you did.
If you see a crime in progress, call 911 and report it.

3. We (in the class) have taken upon ourselves the responsibility for our own safety, and if someone else is being victimized, and they are not willing to do the same as us, then that's the victim's problem. If you DO decide to get involved in what you think is a legitimate requirement to protect someone else, first consider #'s 1 and 2.

The freedom to carry a weapon that can kill people with ease is not to be taken lightly, and never forget that the first bullet you fire will cost you about $100,000 in attorney's fees. Your life and the life of those you love is worth that and more. The rest; you takes your chances.

Carter

Boondoggie
August 1, 2006, 08:22 PM
Revolver Gustav - I was just wondering of what the exact 'duties' of a CCW holder is. I know the primary purpose of carrying a concealed weapon is to protect your family, yourself, and your propriety

Your propriety doesn't enter into this equation, unless someone is threatening your life or the life of another (usually another family member), say whilst in your property, you technically have no recourse. example, if you run out to find someone in you car about to drive off and you 'draw down on them' technically you are in the wrong, now if you shot, I think you would have a hard time explaining why, unless of course he was about to use your vehicle as a weapon that is...;)

Your other 'duties' if you see something bad going down....be a good witness and call 911.

RJay
August 1, 2006, 08:26 PM
CDH, That is one of the most common sense and best replys I've seen to these type questions. There are so many people who are totally unaware of the consequences of even flashing your weapon, much less puting a round down range in fear or anger.

308Enfield
August 1, 2006, 08:32 PM
+1 RJay, CDH had a great answer. As we've seen in just the last couple of days, the police in TN are VERY SERIOUS about people flashing weapons under any circumstances. A University of Tennessee football player was arrested Sunday for flashing a TOY gun at an off-duty police officer on the interstate. Pulling out a real weapon in any but the most extreme of circumstances is a fast way to find yourself in more trouble than you can imagine.

James K
August 1, 2006, 08:39 PM
There may be some exceptions, but in general a permit to carry a concealed weapon is just that - a permit to carry a concealed weapon.

It does not give you any rights you do not already have, or entail any duties you are not already required to perform as a citizen. It does not make you a police officer, it does not allow or require you to investigate crimes, chase crooks, interfere with the police, or play private eye.

It does NOT give you the right to defend yourself or anyone else, nor does it give you the right to make a citizen's arrest. You already have those rights; a firearm may allow you to exercise them effectively, but it does not give them to you.

Nor does it entitle you to play gunslinger, banging away at real or imaginary bad guys. If you commit a crime or crimes, the permit will only mean you won't be charged with the minor offense of illegally carrying a gun. You can still be charged with murder or some lesser offense if you kill or injure someone, even if you believe he is endangering your life.

As to helping others, that will be up to you and the situation, but the permit gives you no authority you do not already have. Be very careful, though. In one training course, the rookie investigator was shown a film in which a woman ran screaming out of a house, with an armed man right behind her. The man ran her down, threw her to the sidewalk, and pinned her down. Sometimes, a newbie would shoot the bad guy. But in the scenario, the woman was a mass murderer, the man was an FBI agent making an arrest.

So if you choose to butt in, make damned sure you know what's going down; remember, you have a gun, but you probably have no other weapon. You are not allowed to carry handcuffs, you might not be allowed to carry Mace. You have no authority to take control of the scene, or detain anyone, or interview witnesses, or otherwise act as a police officer.

Jim

choochboost
August 1, 2006, 08:43 PM
In CA, the only duty you have is when specifically requested to do something by a LEO, and only following his instructions.

Revolver Gustav
August 2, 2006, 12:16 AM
If I've made it look like I want to go out as some gun-toting vigilante out for justice... that's not what I'm getting at. I realize that there are serious consequences just for drawing your weapon as well. I guess I'm just too mad at how the world is working to let it settle that a person could stop a crime from happening or stop a person from being hurt and not. I know that's the wrong way to think and that the laws and morality run deeper than that... well thanks for your replies and for opening things up.


Edit - I just realized that I typed 'propriety' on the first post. What I mean was property. Sorry for that.

shield20
August 2, 2006, 12:28 AM
I don't blame you for wanting to help - especially stepping in with regards to a rape in progress - a really dispicable crime. But as CDH said, and as we taught in our CCW classes using real life experiences as cops - the only situations you will REALLY know what is going on are the ones involving you and your family members. Be careful.

Doubletaptap
August 2, 2006, 12:28 AM
Revolver Gustav,
Basic duties of a CCW are as follows..
1 Keep your gun concealed
2Protect yourself and family,belongings with it.
3If you get pulled over by police,show them your DL and CHL
4If you see something going down, call police,do not intervene.
5CHL is for you as a citizen civilian. You are not a officer of the law. You have no authority to do anything other than #2.
6Try not to shoot anyone if you absolutely don't have to. It will cause you days in court,possible charges filed against you and a big hassle. Also you may be sued by the BG or his family.
7Don't take your gun out to play with it or show it off.
8USE YOUR BRAIN
9Don't engage in illegal activity while carrying
10You are a representative of a special breed that can qualify for this license. Be proud of that and don't do nothing stupid to lose the license.

I'm sure some others can add more.

And I don't see anything wrong with someone asking questions and trying to learn beforehand, to help be prepared, as apparently Dawg23 does. Why rip a guy cause he's 16 and asking questions? That's what sours forums.

azurefly
August 2, 2006, 12:57 AM
Well, for one thing, CCW laws vary (sometimes widely) from state to state, so we really can't give an answer that covers "most" CCW laws or the "duties" of a CCW licensee in any random state. We'd have to get specific as to which state.

Further, when I took the class to qualify for CCW in Florida, the subject of when you could legally use your gun was THE primary issue that the class taught. It was not a practical gun handling class whatsoever -- there was no gun-in-hand time at all. And Florida does not require practical testing.

Do you have a CCW license in your state? Did you have to take a class regarding the legal issues surrounding use of deadly force? If not, you ought to.


-azurefly

Doubletaptap
August 2, 2006, 01:18 AM
Yes here in Texas we have a 8 hour class on laws and what to do and not to do.
And what happens in the courts if you shoot.
Then we have to pass a written test.
Then we have to "qualify" with the gun of our choice.
If you shoot a semi-auto you qualify for SA or revolver carry. If you shoot a revolver,it's for revolver only.

Revolver Gustav
August 2, 2006, 01:47 AM
"Do you have a CCW license in your state? Did you have to take a class regarding the legal issues surrounding use of deadly force? If not, you ought to."

I'm not old enough to even legally own a gun now... or at least purchase one. I just want to know before I am. Doesn't hurt to get knowledge early.

CDH
August 2, 2006, 05:50 AM
If I've made it look like I want to go out as some gun-toting vigilante out for justice... that's not what I'm getting at. I realize that there are serious consequences just for drawing your weapon as well. I guess I'm just too mad at how the world is working to let it settle that a person could stop a crime from happening or stop a person from being hurt and not. I know that's the wrong way to think and that the laws and morality run deeper than that... well thanks for your replies and for opening things up.

I understand the sentiment and I'm sure we all feel it in one way or another, but being given the legal right to be armed gives you no additional authority more than you already have now to act out those feelings. In fact, in some ways, you have to more conservative.
With additional ability (not authority) to easily do lethal harm, your judgement has to be that much more conservative in order to avoid doing unnecessary harm.

Perhaps if you feel that strongly about it, you might think about a career in law enforcement? Seriously.

By the way, no one's beating up on you here, you're just young and need some experienced advice to keep you out of trouble. Years from now, you'll be offering the same advice to others as young as you are now.
God, I wish I was young... :(

Carter

CDH
August 2, 2006, 06:09 AM
Boondoggie said:
Your propriety doesn't enter into this equation, unless someone is threatening your life or the life of another (usually another family member), say whilst in your property, you technically have no recourse. example, if you run out to find someone in you car about to drive off and you 'draw down on them' technically you are in the wrong, now if you shot, I think you would have a hard time explaining why, unless of course he was about to use your vehicle as a weapon that is..

Actually, in Texas, it is perfectly legal to kill someone (even if they are unarmed) in the process of stealing your car from in front of your house if it's after dark. If the same situation happens in daylight, you'll be charged.
Some interesting points I'd like to throw in about that are:
1. I like it. While I would personally NOT kill someone to save my car, I am glad that in Texas, it is recognized to a certain extent that a citizen has the right to protect their property. In the UK, there are people in jail who were VICTIMS of home invasions and who defended themselves with deadly force to protect themselves and their family, and THEY were sent to jail.
For the moment, anyway, I live in a still free Texas.
2. Note that the law is literally a "night and day" difference. If you think about it, what's the difference between stopping the theft of your car with deadly force whether it happens at night or in daylight?
I think it comes back to the issue of legitimate self defense. At night and even if the thief is unarmed, it's dark so you can't know that he's unarmed. The law gives the homeowner the benefit of the doubt because you have to assume the threat is there.
In daylight, you could see that the thief was unarmed therefore you are not legally allowed to use deadly force to just protect your car. Of course if it's daylight and you can see that the thief IS armed, you're back to the legality of using deadly force to counter a direct threat to your life (not to your car).

This is all fun to talk about, but I'd like to think that most people, like myself, would first immediately call 911, and then just stand in hiding with gun in hand (in case the thief decided to enter my house) watching my car drive off.
If my home is entered at night, all bets are off.

Carter

tegemu
August 2, 2006, 08:24 AM
There have been a couple of replies that mention defending property with your CCW. As I see it that will get you in deep trouble. If your property is being damaged or stolen, that is NOT a life threatening occasion and drawing a pistol or God forbid, shooting it in defense of your property makes you a criminal too.

VirgilCaine
August 2, 2006, 08:26 AM
Here in the Big Mitt that is Michigan, we no longer have a "duty to retreat".

I mind my own business, but i'm the type of person that if I hear a yell or call for help, or if something comes across my scanner or sideband radio, I will help. That doesn't mean I'm going to run into a situation spending a fortune in Hydro-shoks, but there is a very good chance I'll personally know the folks involved.

We tend to call our neighbors before LEO's up here. State Police are 22 miles away, and our lone county Sheriff is 26 miles away. My wife knows to use the sideband before 911 if she's in trouble at home.

I guess there is a distinction between rual CCW and city CCW and whatever percieved obligations therein.

When i'm in the city, I'm in self/ wife preservation mode.

Quick story:

I was leaving a Bistro in downtown Pontiac a while back and walking to my Jeep when a young woman jumps out of a car and begins screaming about 30yds in front of me. A man in the car is yelling, "get the &%$! back in here".

I asked the young lady if she was alright and she said, "NO! he just farted and it stinks!!"

Things may not be what they appear, and if you run in singing, " here I come to save the daaaay!"....

The TinStars might already be on the way, and you could really gum up the works.

M1911
August 2, 2006, 09:33 AM
I guess I'm just too mad at how the world is working to let it settle that a person could stop a crime from happening or stop a person from being hurt and not.First, the situation may not be what it first appears. Cops are trained and experienced in quickly determining what is going on, but even they get it wrong.

Second, when the police do arrive, they'll see you with a gun. This is a very, very, very dangerous situation. Police officers end up mistakenly shooting undercover and off-duty officers on a fairly regular basis -- for example, Officer Cornel Young, Jr in Providence. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10228242/

Third, if you get killed in the incident, the victim that you saved is not going to take care of your wife or put your kids through college.

Fourth, you most likely are not adequately trained to intervene, even if you have taken your state's CCW course.

Fifth, if you do use deadly force, even if it is justified, you may be arrested and quite possibly face criminal and civil trials that will use up your entire life savings and leave you in debt for many years even if you prevail. If you don't prevail, you could spend the rest of your life in prison.

While many of people have Walter Mitty dreams and would love to be the hero, actually acting on those dreams is fraught with danger. If you want to be a cop, go to the academy and join the force.