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Wildalaska
July 29, 2006, 03:00 PM
So its 3:30 am and I pull in to my parking lot. I had seen this huge hairy guy (evidently drunk) walking up the road and when I pulled into my lot from the back, I saw him standing by the front entrance so I was a bit on alert. As I am parked, the back entry to the lot is on my left side, the front entry is on my right side. There is a car immediately next to me on the right, on the left an empty space, then a car, the front of the car up against the wall of my building. My vision is therfore obstructed on the left, my back window is tinted so somewhat instructed behind. I shut the car off and as I always do I looked around, thought I saw some movement but wasnt really sure so when I got out, I was even on higher alert. Shut my car door and go to lock it when I had some sixth sense there would be something up, so I stuck my hand in my right back pocket where I carry my Seecamp in a back pocket holster and grabbed the gun but not draw. All of sudden around my car at an angle of about 11 oclock comes the dude hes now about 20 feet away with his fists clenched, I backpedal and run into the car next to me on the left...so Im trapped (really no place to go anyway but forward)...hes now about 10 feet away so I pull the Seecamp, point it as his face while saying in my best command voice "back off mother******". As soon as the gun comes up he stops dead in his tracks and begins backpedaling while cursing me (I think he said that I was a demon or Satan or something), I tell him to "get the f**k out of here" and he starts running off. Well now the adreniline is kicking down so I pace the parking lot for a bit and debate whether to call the cops, decide not to (what are thyey going to do anyway), then go in and call Spiff...:)

Thing Im ****** off the most about is that if he would have come closer to me I probably would have been forced to pop him...he wasnt showing a weapon but he was huge and on something and while I feel I can handle myself (despite my advancing years, pot belly and wimpy size) this guy would have been a handfull and I would have taken some punishment. Couple that with the fact that I was on my property and was basically UNABLE to retreat (I was backed into a car), I am sure it would have been a righteous shoot...but than what a hassle with paperwork and the like...

One thing that is important is attitude...while I am a nice, kind pussycat of a guy and never look for trouble, and despite of the fact that I look like a runty ungroomed rabbi, for some reason (or so I am told by my coworkers) I look either crazy or (as one guy told me) a "grandpa with an attitude"...I think this coupled with the gun drove this street scum off......

When I called Spiffy he was ready to get dressed, grab his AR and go looking for the guy, guess his love life wasnt good that night :)

WildandthatsmystoryAlaska

orionengnr
July 29, 2006, 03:19 PM
Glad you had it when you needed it.
0330 in Alaska, almost August...was the sun just about to come up?

What type o' Seecamp you carrying?
The more I carry, the more I like a small CHL pistol with a big hole in the barrel. If the BG can see it, the bigger the better...likewise, if I have to use it.

Gunfighter45cal
July 29, 2006, 03:21 PM
Bet that Seecamp felt tiny in your hand. Seriously, you handled it pretty well from my end. Probably should have called the police in case he comes up with a story like" I was just going to ask the guy for a cigarette and he pulled a gun on me", or if he comes back armed for revenge and you have to shoot. But it's really easy to sit here and armchair quarterback. The most important thing: you're here to post this!

Hello123
July 29, 2006, 03:25 PM
Good job, but you should always call the police to document the situation. If the same loser comes back and you have to pop him, I would want it documented his previous behavior. I would call the cops for a report today.

Bender711
July 29, 2006, 03:49 PM
Sounds like you did the right thing to me, good job, and im glad no one was hurt.

garryc
July 29, 2006, 03:50 PM
Thing Im ****** off the most about is that if he would have come closer to me I probably would have been forced to pop him...he wasnt showing a weapon but he was huge and on something and while I feel I can handle myself (despite my advancing years, pot belly and wimpy size) this guy would have been a handfull and I would have taken some punishment. Couple that with the fact that I was on my property and was basically UNABLE to retreat (I was backed into a car), I am sure it would have been a righteous shoot...but than what a hassle with paperwork and the like...

And in some states you would have been justified (But not Ohio). It's called disparate force. It is reasonable to believe that you could not defend yourself in a physical confrontation with someone you believed was acting aggressively and irrationally and who was clearly superior to you in strength.

CWO4USCGRET
July 29, 2006, 03:51 PM
Well now the adreniline is kicking down so I pace the parking lot for a bit and debate whether to call the cops, decide not to (what are thyey going to do anyway), then go in and call Spiff...

A call to the police should have been made. The aggressor should have been reported. You did good protecting yourself, but what about the next person he meets - what if it was a 12 year old girl or a 75 year old man? Next time, before you call spiffy, please report it to the police - let them decide what to do or not do.

18DAI
July 29, 2006, 04:06 PM
Good job. Glad your ok. First to dial 911, is usually perceived as the "victim". Might be worth the call, if there's a next time. Stay safe. Regards 18DAI.

SGHOTH
July 29, 2006, 04:17 PM
Glad you are OK and everthing ended well.

Wildalaska
July 29, 2006, 04:25 PM
The reason I didnt call 911 was the fact that I would have had to stand around and wait forever and what would they do...put out a BOLO for some guy who is long gone?

In retrospect I should have...but I jest needed to call my Spiffy :)

So let me get this one up: If the guy would have kept coming, shoot or not shoot? Wait for contact or just pop him?

WildletmehearyourthoughtsAlaska

kingudaroad
July 29, 2006, 04:45 PM
If an attack was immanent, I think hairy dude needed to be shot. One thing to note is that the size of your gun did not make a bit of difference. One look down the barrel and the confrontation was over. Great job WA.

TexasSIGMan
July 29, 2006, 04:48 PM
So let me get this one up: If the guy would have kept coming, shoot or not shoot? Wait for contact or just pop him?

Well I would think that Alaska, like Texas, is still in the United States (unlike a few of the 50, they know who they are).....

On your own property, after presenting a weapon and commanding stop, no place to retreat to, and a larger opponent acting aggressive, were I in your case I would have fired if he continued the advance.

There is always the odd chance of encountering someone that is just for whatever reason really confused, and harmless, but I'd not take that chance.

Glad you didn't have to make that choice and glad you're OK... Might have screwed up me getting my 556.........:D

PinnedAndRecessed
July 29, 2006, 04:53 PM
If the guy would have kept coming, shoot or not shoot? Wait for contact or just pop him?


My CCW instructor here in OK said that before one can pull a handgun he/she should have already been assaulted. Specifically, I'm on the ground with a bloody nose and the attacker is kicking me.

The instructor even demonstrated such a shot.

In short, he was full of it.

This was the same guy who insisted Smith and Wesson had already marketed a computerized "smart gun" and that a bullet, fired into the air, would hit the ground with the same velocity as with which it ascended.

Those were just a few of his "pearls of wisdom."

kymasabe
July 29, 2006, 05:02 PM
I think you did well. And to answer your question, if he had advanced and intended you harm, firing in defense would have been my response.

I'm often chuckled at for carrying my Kel-Tec .32...I'm curious, what Seecamp were you carrying?

Little gun or not...it certainly was effective wasn't it!

Wildalaska
July 29, 2006, 05:08 PM
I carry the Seecamp 32 with silvertips

For the average Joe, I think a small auto is a back pocket is faster to present thatn anything in a belt holster.

WildimhoAlaska

Tim Burke
July 29, 2006, 05:15 PM
I think a small auto is a back pocket is faster to present thatn anything in a belt holster.It's fast if you start with your hand on the gun. The great thing about pocket carry is that starting with your hand on the gun is easy, but doesn't telegraph your intentions.

bg226
July 29, 2006, 05:20 PM
Glad you are safe.

A .32 in the pocket is better than a .45 in the safe.

springmom
July 29, 2006, 05:22 PM
Next time, call the police. Documentation is your friend.

If he had kept coming you had two choices. One is to stand and take it, and the other would have been to shoot. And you would have been furious with him, most likely, for being so stupid as to make you shoot him. You handled it well.

Springgladitwasn'tmemom

Bender711
July 29, 2006, 05:36 PM
Like my dad always yells at the TV. SHOOT HIM IN THE HEAD! Thats my though on shoot or no shoot if he had kept coming.

Knotthead
July 29, 2006, 05:59 PM
I agree that the proper thing to do is to call the police for the variety of reasons given above, but I might have hesitated myself. If I lived in one of the more urban areas of my home state (KY), I might not have out of fear that the police would have made me out to be the bad guy. While I expect that most rural law enforcement officers understand the need for self-reliance, my perception is that the more urban ones do not. I don't have anything to back this assumption up, and I wondered if anyone out there has any experience with this situation.

Dwight55
July 29, 2006, 06:01 PM
garryc, . . . what's so special about Ohio that makes the proposition of shooting this slime ball off limits?

Far as I can see, . . . me and WildAlaska are just a couple of old geezers who CCW, . . . and neither of us is in the physical shape to take on someone 30 years our junior, . . . in a street fight.

I figure the guy would have been a serious threat to my life, limb, health, etc. and that IS sufficient to pop him if push comes to shove. Get beat up if you want, . . . but I have a 1911 and 25 rounds of ammo for it on me most of the time and I ain't takin' a thrashing from some punk who wants to rob me and beat me to a pulp for kicks and giggles.

If I don't see a weapon, . . . I'll give him the benefit and tell him to stop. But if I see his ball bat, . . . club, . . . knife, . . . he'll probably wish he didn't have them when he went to the gun fight.

Good job, Wild, . . .

May God bless,
Dwight

imur_huckle_berry
July 29, 2006, 06:29 PM
So let me get this one up: If the guy would have kept coming, shoot or not shoot? Wait for contact or just pop him?


shoot

Lancel
July 29, 2006, 06:32 PM
Sometimes I also choose to carry my Seecamp .32 as a primary. It's done with the understanding that I'll have to work harder to stop the bad guy.
If the guy would have kept coming, shoot or not shoot? Wait for contact or just pop him?
The scariest bad guy I ever knew didn't carry a weapon. He was a big psycho with plenty of knife scars on his normally shirtless chest. The local police were even afraid of him.

The point is that if a person is told to stop but is determined to close on a drawn pistol, he's beyond common sense and negotiation. Yes, I would shoot.

And I would notify the police to be logged as the concerned, justified citizen I am.

Larry

springmom
July 29, 2006, 06:35 PM
I agree that the proper thing to do is to call the police for the variety of reasons given above, but I might have hesitated myself. If I lived in one of the more urban areas of my home state (KY), I might not have out of fear that the police would have made me out to be the bad guy. While I expect that most rural law enforcement officers understand the need for self-reliance, my perception is that the more urban ones do not. I don't have anything to back this assumption up, and I wondered if anyone out there has any experience with this situation.
Today 05:36 PM


The constables, sheriffs, and Houston PD...and most importantly, the District Attorney...are good about their treatment of people who must shoot in self-defense. It has to be a legal shoot, but if it is, then it is, and they're not going to harass you.

They are, however, likely to say "Good for you."

Springmom

18DAI
July 29, 2006, 06:35 PM
If he'd have kept on coming, I'd have called for two ambulances, and then told the officers (when they arrived) that I was in fear for my life, and before I cooperated with his investigation, I'd like to speak with my attorney. My 0.02 Thankfully, your ok, without having to ride out that crap storm. Regards 18DAI.

Dean C
July 29, 2006, 06:36 PM
Wild,
I know you're an ICON here, but I've got to say either you didn't call 911 because of some extra beverages or my BS meter is still working.
dean

Wildalaska
July 29, 2006, 06:42 PM
Nope last night was booze free, totally......

WildnowtonightisdifferentAlaska

Epyon
July 29, 2006, 07:02 PM
You did right, if you were in Florida, the "right-to-shoot" law would've allowed you to shoot him even if you weren't on your own property. How are Alaska's laws about shooting anyway? If you're on your property (be it business or home.) do you have to retreat first, or can you stand you ground?


Epywhydoyoutypeweirdsentencesinyournameon

tshadow6
July 29, 2006, 07:23 PM
You did the right thing. You made it home in one piece. Some folks may say you should have done this or that, but they wern't there. Every day above ground is a good day.

Bender711
July 29, 2006, 07:23 PM
Benbecausethatswhathedoesder

razorburn
July 29, 2006, 07:32 PM
razorbutitmakesithardtoreadburn.

cpaspr
July 29, 2006, 07:34 PM
Given the situation, disparity of size, age and physical ability, and the fact that you were backed up with no retreat possible - one more step from the perp and I'd shoot.

Years ago, had two guys force their way into my apartment. Both bigger, older, meaner (I was 22-23, 5'8", 142#). Found out later one was a semi-pro fighter. What's semi-pro anyway? Is that like being semi-pregnant? But I digress.

My watchband broke and cut my wrist when I rolled out of the first guy's grip. (Stupid me, tried to push them back out.) I back pedalled while telling them to leave, that they didn't belong there. Had a hunting knife on the bookshelf as a letter opener. I had determined that if they took one more step or reached for that knife I was turning and jetting down the hall. I could clear the bed in one jump, and there was a loaded .22 under the mattress. I would have shot if they'd have followed. By the grace of God, they realized they had the wrong apartment (my bookshelves had books, not booze bottles like my neighbor).

Sometimes, you're just one step away from a trigger pull and you know that that is all it will take. Sometimes ya gotta pull it, sometimes you don't. Glad ya didn't have to.
____________

Epyon

Why does he type in the middle of his name? Cause that's his trademark.

CPAandIforonewouldmissitifheeverstopsdoingitSPR

springmom
July 29, 2006, 07:42 PM
Nope last night was booze free, totally......

WildnowtonightisdifferentAlaska

I certainly would HOPE SO!!!!! :D

Spring'causeifanybodyprobablyneedsadrinkyoudoafterthatmom

Blackwater OPS
July 29, 2006, 08:04 PM
Justifiable shoot, size and age of your attacker plus a reasonable suspicion that he under the influence of narcotics.

Funny though, I thought you gave up carry? Glad you changed your mind.:)

Lycanthrope
July 29, 2006, 08:17 PM
I had that happen once and my only thought (despite my 4" Kimber Compact) was that .....I wish I had a bigger gun.

I can't imagine that with a Seacamp.

Lycchallengemetappropriatelyandeveryonewenthomethrope

Gunfighter45cal
July 29, 2006, 08:26 PM
That's what I was referring to earlier. I've done this numerous times and ALWAYS wished I had a bigger gun; be it with an J frame, 1911, or even an M4 or shotgun.

garryc
July 29, 2006, 08:45 PM
My CCW instructor here in OK said that before one can pull a handgun he/she should have already been assaulted. Specifically, I'm on the ground with a bloody nose and the attacker is kicking me.

Thats very close to the way it is in certain counties in ohio

Roberta X
July 29, 2006, 08:50 PM
Well done, WA, and I am glad it didn't come to gunfire.

...The ratio of having to fire vs. the BG deciding he's got other things to do is supposedly about 1 in ten, so the outcome's not unexpected. It's chillin' either way.

Edward429451
July 29, 2006, 09:28 PM
If he would have kept coming I think you should have shot him. Anyone who advances on a drawn weapon can certainly be reasonably assumed to be intent on doing you harm or worse. Plus with the disparity of force, no way you should let a big bruiser get close or ahold of you! Yay teeny Seecamp. (right where he would've expected your wallet to be!) You don't have to be a punching bag for anyone.

Now then, Mr. PC...you know the PC thing to do was to call the cops. Shame Shame.:D

I know why you didn't. Underneath all your PCness, you got a streak of the stubborn American pride. Your freudian slip is showing...:D

Glad you're OK.

Al Norris
July 29, 2006, 09:38 PM
Wild, I know exactly how you felt. Glad ya didn't have to shoot.

And yeah, I know why you wanted to talk to spiff... Me, I had a live cop there. We both talked it through.

Holman
July 29, 2006, 09:52 PM
You did the right thing. You made it home in one piece. Some folks may say you should have done this or that, but they weren't there. Every day above ground is a good day.

+1 well said!

Al.40cal
July 29, 2006, 09:58 PM
Great job WA! You and him are alive and just maybe that POS learned a lesson in trying to take advantage of someone!

cen
July 29, 2006, 10:34 PM
Now I've got buddies who say " If I draw my gun, I'm going to shoot, that's the only reason to draw it". I disagree. In your specific situation you avoided numerous awful situations by not firing. Hey, if the guy leaves, GREAT, did you WANT to shoot him, hell no. But If he kept coming, you were ready. Who knows what kind of weapons he may have had, or maybe he was on crack or meth, who knows. I like the fact that most of the time, the presence of a weapon, stops the altercation entirely.

Series 70
July 29, 2006, 11:50 PM
Glad you didn't have to shoot, but it's good that you were prepared. Did you have a light handy? You didn't say, but it seems like one would have certainly been handy.

CelticMP
July 30, 2006, 12:25 AM
Glad you didnt have to shoot WA. Sticky situation... do i? or dont i?. and then in the morning it is what if ?and why didnt i? but enough about the psychology of it. glad you are ok and that he decided to retreat instead of forcing your hand ( no pun intended ;) ). besides if you went to jail <not saying you would have> but IZinter and IZhum and bunch of other people would have to shop elsewhere for discount firearms and that would break thier hearts:D . oh yeah and you being in jail would suck too:D

symr00
July 30, 2006, 12:37 AM
Glad you're ok but pulling a handgun on an unarmed man is a crime even if he did want to kick your ass. This is the exact reason I carry OC while carrying a handgun off-duty. Maybe you're a woman or a feeble old man and I apologize if that's the case as you would have been justified. I'm with the others that agree you should have called the cops. That guy could have called them and you would have been taken to jail most likely for assault. He also could have been looking to rob/rape or kill someone and after he left your home, looked for a better victim. Calling the cops may have stopped him from hurting another person.

leadcounsel
July 30, 2006, 12:58 AM
Are you SURE he wasn't armed with something, like a tire iron or a stick or even a big rock.... :D

Seriously though, I'm not sure about Alaska, but most states only require that you were in fear of your life from imminent serious bodily harm. Does Alaska require a duty to retreat?

'75Scout
July 30, 2006, 12:59 AM
How long was your adrenaline pumping? If it were me I would have enough adrenaline in my system to flip over my truck til dinner time.

You handled it well. You gave him a chance to stop and saved his life by drawing when you did. Any closer and you would have had to pop him. My thoughts are the same as mentioned before. No weapon and far enough away I'd hold the fire for a moment. Any weapon in sight and its the OK Coral. Even more so if family is present, because retreating is even harder.

Although I would have called the cops for the reason that he might have placed a call too. And definatly wait to talk to LEOs if you have to shoot until you talk to your lawyer.

Blackwater OPS
July 30, 2006, 01:02 AM
Glad you're ok but pulling a handgun on an unarmed man is a crime even if he did want to kick your ass.

Not always, and probably not in this case.

This is the exact reason I carry OC while carrying a handgun off-duty.

Do you carry cuffs and a radio as well?:rolleyes: (Not that carrying OC is a bad idea)

He also could have been looking to rob/rape or kill someone and after he left your home, looked for a better victim. Calling the cops may have stopped him from hurting another person.

Because they could charge him with what, walking at someone in a parking lot?

PATH
July 30, 2006, 01:16 AM
WildAlaska,

You exhibited good ol' common sense in your confrontation with this individual. Disparate size and age made you a target. Presenting your firearm saved that idiots life and prevented you from getting hurt.

If you had to make a decision to shoot I am sure it would have been as a last resort. I guess in the end it is one of those "you had to be there" sort of things. Tough call. I'm sure glad you are okay though!

symr00
July 30, 2006, 02:09 AM
Do you carry cuffs and a radio as well? (Not that carrying OC is a bad idea)

No, I don't and I have carried OC with my CCW before I was in law enforcement. You can't go pulling out your gun at every tough guy wanting to pick a fight with you. If you don't know how to defend yourself w/H2H, then OC is a decent less than lethal alternative that isn't going to get you a trip to jail.

Because they could charge him with what, walking at someone in a parking lot?

Well, according to you and the original poster, he was doing something wrong enough to warrant using deadly force. That's why he drawed down on him, right?

Blackwater OPS
July 30, 2006, 02:22 AM
Well, according to you and the original poster, he was doing something wrong enough to warrant using deadly force. That's why he drawed down on him, right?

No one claimed he commited a crime, what is clear from Ken's statement is that he was in reasonable fear for his life and/or serious bodily injury. THAT is what warranted the presentation of deadly force and possibly its use had the subject not decided he had the wrong guy.

You should at least know this from your CCW class before your LE career. ;)

In any case you cannot go around spraying people with OC without cause any more than you can shoot them, although the consequences are slightly less dire, so I fail to see your position.

symr00
July 30, 2006, 04:07 AM
No one claimed he commited a crime, what is clear from Ken's statement is that he was in reasonable fear for his life and/or serious bodily injury. THAT is what warranted the presentation of deadly force and possibly its use had the subject not decided he had the wrong guy.

You should at least know this from your CCW class before your LE career.


That's why I mentioned if he is an older gentleman and feared for his life then I appologize. But pulling out a gun on an unarmed person coming at you aggressively or just looking to kick your ass is a crime. That's the law here in AZ. Maybe in CA and AK it's different.



In any case you cannot go around spraying people with OC without cause any more than you can shoot them, although the consequences are slightly less dire, so I fail to see your position.

On the contrary, OC is a less-lethal weapon and can be used on someone intent on hurting you even if they are unarmed. It's a necessary tool IMO if you carry a concealed weapon. We're not living in some la-la land where we can draw down on every dic*head intent on starting a fight with us. This is the reality of that...

http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp?S=5034336&nav=menu216_2

I'd hate to see anyone's life ruined by some scumbag. Glad everything turned out ok.

GUNSMOKE45441
July 30, 2006, 07:40 AM
The guy should get a lifesaving medal or some award, because he clearly saved his life by running.
I read the link in the above post, jury was not given all the facts, hard to make a ruleing based on partial evidence:mad:

WELL DONE WA!!!!

stephen426
July 30, 2006, 10:36 AM
Wild,

Glad you are okay.

As for your shoot/no shoot question, I would have given him one more step after the gun was presented and then pop a round into him. Another step and he gets another round until you are out of ammo. The only Seecamps I know of are chambered for .32 acp. This is a puny round and has very little stopping power even if you are using hollow points. There are plenty of documented cases where people have been shot with a much more substantial caliber and still killed the person who shot them. If the guy had a concealed contact weapon, 10 feet is would not be nearly enough distance to stop him, especially with a .32 acp. Even without a weapon, a large guy who is intoxicated may not feel pain and may still severely injure you, if not kill you, with his bare hands. I would definately go for a head shot if the first shot COM did not stop him or at least make him reconsider.

stephentakecareandstaysafe426

imur_huckle_berry
July 30, 2006, 10:37 AM
That's why I mentioned if he is an older gentleman and feared for his life then I appologize. But pulling out a gun on an unarmed person coming at you aggressively or just looking to kick your ass is a crime. That's the law here in AZ. Maybe in CA and AK it's different.

Really? If so, I'm glad I don't live in AZ. I would have done the same thing WA, BUT, if I had decided to drop him it would have been justified in the eyes of the TX law. Glad you're ok.

281 Quad Cam
July 30, 2006, 11:54 AM
The police are very tricky.... I probably would have called - but I am a glutton for punishment.

I can honestly see them arresting me for armed assault - than trying to find the other guy only to convince him to press charges against me - which ofcourse he will do - as well as sue me in civil court.

A great many will say "The police are not here to help you." But I can't bring myself to be that strong about it.

I look at it this way... The cops get there, they have an open mind. They find out there were 2 involved. One did nothing but walk thru a parking lot, the other presented a firearm and assaulted the first man. Since you cannot prove he had bad intent, and without evidence the police cannot believe you that he made aggresive gestures... Look at it from their eyes. Furthermore you could very likely get a cop whos anti-gun.

I don't know what I'm saying. But WA may have made the right choice, considering he is home and comfy right now, and not in a jail cell awaiting brandishing or assault charges. Just another failure of the justice system.

CyberSEAL
July 30, 2006, 12:28 PM
Good job Alaska. Not all altercations require a phone call to the police. Easy for people who weren't there to give you advice I guess...

Dusty Dan
July 30, 2006, 12:30 PM
That'll teach you to confuse steak sauce for your aftershave. A "huge, hairy guy" in Alaska, huh?

I've been hearing about these critters the locals like to call "bears", or some other stupid thing.....:D





J/K--glad you're okay. I would like to see some statistics on how many attacks are avoided just by a gun being drawn--I'd guess in many cases you don't even need to fire to defuse a situation. Kudos for keeping your head and exercising trigger discipline.

CyberSEAL
July 30, 2006, 12:32 PM
But pulling out a gun on an unarmed person coming at you aggressively or just looking to kick your ass is a crime.

"Just looking to kick your ass"...this is my new favorite quote. When you choose to carry concealed, you are playing by a different set of rules. You cannot allow yourself to get into a physical altercation where your gun could be taken or control of it lost in any way. Someone "just looking to kick your ass" when you're carrying could present a real problem.

Just because it's the law, doesn't mean it's right. I conceal carry in Washington D.C. and many other places I'm not supposed to, because those places are where it's needed the most.

VirgilCaine
July 30, 2006, 12:51 PM
Glad you're OK and you did right by breaking leather. However, if the other guy went and told the first cop he saw, "that guy pulled a gun on me"...

You might've had some 'splainin' to do. A complete monday morning arm chair quarterback observation.

I think I'd want my name in the "Complaintant" box and not the "subject" box if any thing came of it.

+1 for the good guys.

Roberta X
July 30, 2006, 01:14 PM
Some of your fellers must be from "duty to retreat" states. If it is a crime or not to draw on a man who is behaving in a threatening manner is somewhat situational (have you other options with a good chance of safety?) -- but it is also governed by state law.

In Indiana, case-law since the 1800s supported the right to self-defense even in public settings, though subsequent decisions suggested disparity of force was also a factor; recent legislative action has made "no duty to retreat" quite explicit. So where I live, in WA's situation, it would be no crime at all for me to draw and aim.

Drive for a couple of hours to IL and play out the exact same scene, and I'd be committing multiple felonies -- against a poor innocent victim of circumstance.

You really have to know what the rules are before sharing your well-thought advice. Wiki tells us Alaska is considering a "stand your ground" law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law#Other_states) Working only from news reports, it appears that if one is cornered outside one's home, (http://sayanythingblog.com/2006/01/30/alaska_considering_stand_your_ground_self_defense/) armed self-defense is legal in Alaska.

Harley Quinn
July 30, 2006, 01:47 PM
Late to the thread but:

I hope this will not be something to come back and haunt you. The guy knows your car, has seen you etc., etc..

I believe you need to tell a few police in the area and have them be alert for this guy.
I am not sure if police frequent your location, but I think you should have called them when it happened. Not 911 though. Call and mention the problem, tell them you pack and are now more concerned then ever.

Maybe you felt insecure in your right to have pulled a weapon. I am sure many thoughts went through your head.
I would not allow myself to become secure with this as of yet.

Awareness is the key now. IMHO

HQ

Captain38
July 30, 2006, 01:53 PM
I'll admit that I've just scanned most of these comments, including the original post, so I'm probably being redundant and saying something that someone has already said here before me. Nevertheless, I'd recommend contacting the police because there's a real tendency in police work to believe the first person who reports such an incident and it's not all that unusual for a bad guy to try and cover his ass by reporting that you pulled a gun on him for no good reason just in case he's ever identified.

Reporting the matter will also give the police the information necessary to increase their routine patrols in an area where some innocent person might otherwise become a potential victim. They can't solve problems they don't know about!

Final comment: The original post was so well written that the author may have missed his calling as a writer. It's far superior to anything that's ever seen written up in a police report, but, again, someone mentioned something called a "BS meter"?

cpaspr
July 30, 2006, 03:53 PM
please re-read his original post. He said:

on the left an empty space, then a car, the front of the car up against the wall of my building. ... I backpedal and run into the car next to me on the left...so Im trapped (really no place to go anyway but forward)...

Duty to retreat or not: HE COULDN'T! This point should never have come up, since he stated from the beginning that he could not retreat. End of discussion before it should have even been mentioned.

It really ticks me off when people pop off with opinions without bothering to read the original post.
__________

symr00 -

You're relatively new here, so probably haven't read much of WA's previous posts, and so don't know much about him, but if you had read the entire thread, you would have caught Dwight55s comment (post #21) that WA is at least 30 years older than most streetfighting mugging perps of the type originally portrayed.

WA also stated in the first post, second paragraph ...he wasnt showing a weapon but he was huge and on something and while I feel I can handle myself (despite my advancing years, pot belly and wimpy size) . . . and was basically UNABLE to retreat (I was backed into a car) and, third paragraph ... and despite of the fact that I look like a runty ungroomed rabbi, for some reason (or so I am told by my coworkers) I look either crazy or (as one guy told me) a "grandpa with an attitude"...

So yeah, from the above two selections, WA is small ("runty") and older ("advancing years" and "grandpa"). (No offense intended, WA.)

Older = less able to flee. Smaller = less able to fight. Duty to retreat = discussed above.


CPAdonerantingfornowSPR

BobK
July 30, 2006, 04:42 PM
Wild, seems to be a few differents opinions on how you handled your situation. But, you know what? I just doesn't matter. It does matter however that you are safe and unhurt. I think most people would have done the same. Others should put themselves in your shoes before they comment.

spacemanspiff
July 31, 2006, 12:13 PM
Well my weekend wasn't as adrenalin-filled as WA's, but it was busy nonetheless. Heres the weird part. I was getting home a few minutes before WA's incident, and I saw the person (or someone who matched taht description) walking down the street trying to flag down traffic. He was quite large.

Knowing that size disparity, and given the cornered scenario, about the only other thing i could think of that WA could have done is maybe give him a faceful of light. Thats what the offhand is for, especially when drawing out a peashooter.

spacemannomylovelifewasntbadthatnightiwasworkingattheravespiff

DBOUNCE1
July 31, 2006, 04:47 PM
sounds like you handled it well. so here is my question

where can i go to look and see where is is legal to OC i looked on packing.org but didn't see anyhting on OC, i would rather CC but nebraska dosen't have yet supposed to pass 1/1/07.


and also where can i go to find out the legalities on drawing my weapon when it is acceptable

thanks for the help guys

bclark1
July 31, 2006, 04:56 PM
just catching up on this thread and i don't have much else to offer, but glad you're alright and that it worked out without either of you getting more than a scare. whether this guy who would attack a stranger deserves to wander the streets another day is open to debate, but as you noted, it's good you didn't need to go through the hassle of shooting.

auberg
July 31, 2006, 05:52 PM
With a Rabbi like you, I think I would be at services every week.:D

Wildalaska
July 31, 2006, 06:14 PM
about the only other thing i could think of that WA could have done is maybe give him a faceful of light. Thats what the offhand is for, especially when drawing out a peashooter.


I didnt have my light unfortunately, however, after working a few concerts where the youths are doped up, the lights really wouldnt stop a drugged out freakazoid.

Unless I use the 500 Lumen M6 :)

WildimissmyspiffhesalwaysoutpartyingwithoutmeAlaska

spacemanspiff
July 31, 2006, 06:23 PM
True it might not have stopped him but it would have bought you an extra second. Then again, he wouldn't have seen the muzzle of your gun and might have taken that extra two steps.

spacemani'monthewagonnomorepartyingformeforatleast3or4daysspiff

p.s. spacemantherestwoconcertsnextmonthAvenged7foldandKillswitchengagebothatEgancenternextraveisAug25spiff

p.p.s spacemanifyouwanttoworkthetrappercreekbluegrassletmeknowidontwanttovolunteertodoitwithoutafriendlyfaceonhandspiff

HarryB
July 31, 2006, 06:32 PM
OC is always a good thing to have. Here in AZ Harold Fish was walking in the woods when 3 dogs starting to charge him. He fired a warning shot and the dogs fled. The dog handler charged at Fish threatening to kill him. Fish fired three times, killing the handler. The bottom line is that a jury convicted him of second degree murder. To me it seemed like a cut and dry case of self defense.

Denny Hansen
July 31, 2006, 06:34 PM
That's why I mentioned if he is an older gentleman and feared for his life then I appologize. But pulling out a gun on an unarmed person coming at you aggressively or just looking to kick your ass is a crime. That's the law here in AZ. Maybe in CA and AK it's different.

Uh, not quite right. If you brandish a weapon and you are not in fear of your life, you may be arrested for assault. That was not the case here, and assault, brandishing, threatening and intimidating, disorderly conduct, etc. etc would not be applicable.

Just glad you’re OK, Ken.

Denny

Wildalaska
July 31, 2006, 07:00 PM
Thanks Denny and to all who wished me well...

I want to emphasize (and all this was going through my mind as it was happening) that I honestly was trapped and this guy did not look "normal".....I know from long experience (and you cops out there can do this too) what someone looks like under the influence and this guy WAS under the influence...coupled with his aggressive behavior and I honestly beleive that I was going to be subjected to unlawful physical force...dont forget too I was in MY parking lot...

Alaska stutes provide that you can used deadly force "he person reasonably believes the use of deadly force is necessary for self defense against death, serious physical injury, kidnapping, sexual assault in the first degree, sexual assault in the second degree, or robbery in any degree."...Contrast that to places where deadly force is only authoirzed to meet deadly force (like NY)

Heres Alaskas definition of serious injury:

(A)physical injury caused by an act performed under circumstances that create a substantial risk of death; or

(B) physical injury that causes serious and protracted disfigurement, protracted impairment of health, protracted loss or impairment of the function of a body member or organ, or that unlawfully terminates a pregnancy;

One punch from this guy or more than one would have been serious.....

WildalivealiveAlaska

Harley Quinn
July 31, 2006, 07:33 PM
Time to take a few TKD classes, learn to scream and kick high, when he is 20 feet away from you.
If he continues to come at you just shoot him. Hey, is'nt that why you carry, to shoot?:D
If you are not going to shoot um, don't carry.;)

Or you can go down and get counceling on why we need to be a kinder and gentler Nation. That might change your attitude.
Or after they tell you how many people are actually victim's you just might shoot quicker:D

I know it is really against your religion. I am just kidding, Sick cop.:cool:

HQ

mgdavis
July 31, 2006, 10:22 PM
Aren't you glad you weren't having another one of These (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190396) days?

Harley Quinn
July 31, 2006, 10:57 PM
The guy is definitly living on the edge.;)

Need some serious physcial exercise and fighting abilities, so you will be able to sleep better and not go to work so early, (dark).

HQ

azurefly
July 31, 2006, 11:21 PM
A call to the police should have been made. The aggressor should have been reported. You did good protecting yourself, but what about the next person he meets - what if it was a 12 year old girl or a 75 year old man? Next time, before you call spiffy, please report it to the police - let them decide what to do or not do.

I know I'm late to this thread, and haven't read the intervening posts yet, but, I want to offer to CW04 that a large part of the ambivalence that many of us civvies would have about calling the police is the crapshoot we engage in regarding whether we end up with a cop who is prosecutorially hostile to our right to carry guns, and use them for personal defense.

In other words, we could easily end up with a cop who decides he has a need to slap the cuffs on us, because well, we just admitted to aggravated assault with a firearm! :barf:

It's tempting to just keep yer yap shut and count yerself lucky that you had what you needed to avert being harmed by some psycho dude. If he never goes and swears out a complaint against you (another gamble) you're in the clear. But then, while some advocate being the first to contact the police about a righteous use of your firearm because it gives you the legitimacy (even if it's just a display: obviously if you fired you'd call the cops, I would think), there is danger that the cop who responds will be all "Massachusetts" on ya. :mad:

-azurefly

azurefly
August 1, 2006, 12:29 AM
"He also could have been looking to rob/rape or kill someone and after he left your home, looked for a better victim. Calling the cops may have stopped him from hurting another person."

Because they could charge him with what, walking at someone in a parking lot?


Well, I was thinking that if he called the cops on the bruiser, and the cops caught up with him, they would probably be able to size up -- as cops can -- whether the guy was off-kilter and dangerous or not, and if he was, they could probably have easily nudged him into giving them the reason to haul him in. Anyway, I've seen that kind of thing happen enough on "COPS." :D

I just am giving credit to cops being able to make an assessment of a large, potentially-dangerous vagrant type and determining if leaving him to wander might end up endangering further innocents who may either be less prepared than WA or less cool-under-pressure.

-azurefly

tanksoldier
August 1, 2006, 02:49 AM
If you have a gun, and you allow yourself to be drawn into a physical confrontation, you could find your gun in the hands of your opponant.

You don't HAVE to get into a fistfight just because your adversary is apparently unarmed, even if you're the same size or bigger. Due to the limitations of most states' CCW we don't have the same force options a police officer has... no pepper spray, no ASP, no taser, often no knife... it's fists or gun.

If the drunk had continued to advance on Wild, what was he going to do? Put the gun away and duke it out with the guy, or let the guy walk up and take it from him?

At some point you have to decide to shoot even an apparently unarmed badguy... and the law has to recognize that.

threegun
August 1, 2006, 06:54 AM
The scariest bad guy I ever knew didn't carry a weapon. He was a big psycho with plenty of knife scars on his normally shirtless chest. The local police were even afraid of him.


I work at a pawnshop. A really normal looking average sized customer was confronted by police for dealing in stolen property (not at the shop). This guy was maybe 5'9" 180 or so and of average muscular build. He successfully fought off 4 officers actually taking one officers gun from its retention holster (tossed it away before being shot) then ran under a house and fought a german sheppard police officer to a draw. I saw his mug shot while detectives took paperwork and statements from us at the pawnshop and told us the story. He looked like Rocky Balboa before mick cut him. The point is he didn't look like a bad *** but would have been able to kill most of us with our own gun if he wanted to and if we didn't shot him.

This is just one reason why I would have shot if he didn't stop

YellowLab
August 1, 2006, 08:49 PM
THe number one rule is that I go home. Money can be replaced. There lots of it out there.

You only have 1 life.. and my belief is that NO ONE but me has the duty to protect it.

I live in semi rural PA and at best we have State Trooper coverage. Response time is 10-20 minutes.

Not being flippant, but in you situation if the 10 ft zone is breached (I think some places call it the saftey zone or some such) its two to the chest and one to the head.

With AIDs, HEP C and god knows what else floating around in Mr. Bad guy a physical confrontation is not gonna happen. I'll pay my law dog whatever it takes... but I go home. Period.

Mikeyboy
August 1, 2006, 10:01 PM
Time to take a few TKD classes, learn to scream and kick high, when he is 20 feet away from you.
If he continues to come at you just shoot him. Hey, is'nt that why you carry, to shoot?
If you are not going to shoot um, don't carry.

To quote Bobby from King of the Hill. "That's my purse!!! I don't know you!!"
If that don't work apparently you can shoot an unarmed man dead for walking "menacingly" toward you :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Can we turn the tactical down a little here. Wild did fine. The guy backed down, and no one got hurt. Actually Wild it was probably Bigfoot trying to ask you a question about a 1911:D

CWO4USCGRET
August 1, 2006, 10:51 PM
Azurefly, I think your reasoning for not calling the police is total bullcrap. As I said previously calling the police and letting them handle it is a civic responsibility. Sometimes even off-duty officers best response it to be a witness...depending on the situation of course - before anyone starts the "what ifs." Now to address your concern about what you said about the zealous officer: Do you lie to him? No, do you tell him everything? No. Could you say something like I was in my parking lot coming home and this big (enter description) person was acting threatening and menacing, he appeared to be under the influence of something; I was able to avoid him but I feel it was necessary to call you.

Recently (about 0230 in the morning) my 110# German Shepard started barking and woke me up. He was trying to get through the picture window, some teenaged young woman apparently drunk, was having trouble walking (hell standing up). Although I could have gone outside with anything from .22 to 12 gauge; I called 911, identified myself, explained what was happening and they took care of it. What they possibly did was saved her life. She could have very easily stepped into the path of an oncoming car or even tried to go into someone else's house and get shot. Like I said, calling the police is a civic responsibility, and should be done.

WRT WildAlaska's reaction to the threat I see nothing wrong with his action regarding clearing leather. The only negative comment I have about his actions which could haunt any of us if we do have to shoot someone is his (and others) comments about "popping" him. Ambulance Chasers (personal injury lawyers) just love that...he walked toward me, looked crazy, so I popped him...the same thought is if I use my baton on someone, I didn't wail on him, I struck him as I was trained, to stop him from his assaultive behavior. If I shoot someone, it isn't "I popped hm," I shot him twice to the chest and once to the head to stop him because he had the ability, opportunity, and intent to cause me serious or fatal harm. Maybe it sounds hokey to some, but when you testify that you responded to the threat as you were trained to do it goes alot longer to showing you acted properly.

azurefly
August 1, 2006, 11:23 PM
CW04,
Take it easy, killer! I wasn't saying that I necessarily espouse not calling the police -- just offering reasons why in some places even a person who was justified in drawing a gun might fear the type of treatment he might get by the officer who responds. We all know that there are jurisdictions that are far from sympathetic to those of us who would use a gun for lawful self defense.

-azurefly

CWO4USCGRET
August 1, 2006, 11:37 PM
Azure, you don't know me well enough to refer to me as a "killer" so take it easy yourself I won't take it real personal, but I don't like it. Here is your comment that predicated my response:

I want to offer to CW04 that a large part of the ambivalence that many of us civvies would have about calling the police is the crapshoot we engage in regarding whether we end up with a cop who is prosecutorially hostile to our right to carry guns, and use them for personal defense.

In other words, we could easily end up with a cop who decides he has a need to slap the cuffs on us, because well, we just admitted to aggravated assault with a firearm!


You are the one talking about ambivalence about calling and it being a crapshoot worrying about "hostile" (arrest heavy?) officers responding.

My comment about calling the police is to report the aggressive behavior and t allow them to investigate the threat and take action. For all they know you heard a noise, saw the threat, and called it in.

azurefly
August 1, 2006, 11:57 PM
Dude, I was just saying take it easy. You came off like you took personal insult to what I had written, calling it "bullcrap." I was just trying to set the record straight. I myself am not of a set opinion about what I would do if I had to draw on someone but not fire. Would I call police? Would I refrain? I don't know.

The "take it easy, killer," is just a figure of speech, for cryin' out loud. (For that matter, so is "for cryin' out loud"! :p ) It wasn't like I was calling you an actual killer or something. Sorry if it was misunderstood.

-azurefly

azurefly
August 2, 2006, 12:00 AM
CW04, your clarification makes sense to me but it was something I hadn't caught earlier. I thought you were still talking on the subject (that most of us were still on) regarding whether we call and tell a cop that we had just drawn a handgun on someone we thought was intent on harming us.

You were talking about reporting the guy for being a menace, yes?
Well, what if we call it in, and the next thing you know, he is picked up, and after questioning, he admits that he approached some dude in a parking lot who scared the crap out of him by pulling a GUN on him? "Really? Someone pulled a gun on you?! Where? Take us there!"

Next thing you know, you're in handcuffs.

So there are potential drawbacks to even your plan of saying nothing about the gun but warning them that there's a big nasty dude wandering around.

-azurefly

Lt. G
August 2, 2006, 01:22 AM
Glad you're still here Wild. You showed more restraint than I would have.

Lt. G

tepin
August 2, 2006, 11:39 AM
In my opinion, if you pull a gun on someone and tell them to “get the F*** out or I will shoot you” and they keep walking towards you, a reasonable person should conclude that the bad guy believes he has the ability to disarm you. Whether the gun is in your hand or on the ground 10 feet away, the bad guy is going for a gun and you have the right to defend yourself if no other options exist. You need to consider the caliber of your firearm. I am not familiar with your choice of firearm but a person as large as what you have described and being drunk and possibly highly motivated, anything smaller than a .40 might be on the light side of stopping power.

Wildalaska
August 2, 2006, 12:09 PM
You need to consider the caliber of your firearm. I am not familiar with your choice of firearm but a person as large as what you have described and being drunk and possibly highly motivated, anything smaller than a .40 might be on the light side of stopping power.

This is a good one for a rant:

OK here it is....Here is the first rule of gun fighting:...Have a Gun. I had one. My choice of pistols is based on COMFORT. Its so small I forget its there (which causes problems sometimes :)). I dont worry about all this caliber mumbo jumbo, I dont pay any attention to stopping power equations or apocryphal stories of crazed crackheads taking 27 shots of 40 in the chest....I comfortably have a gun, guys want to go around with 40s or 45s in their pockets with spare mags or clips or whatnot, hey, their thing, me I can whip that little 32 out from my pocket faster than a bucket of slop gets et by a hungry pig. Think a 32 isnt effective? let me shoot you in the face with one from 7 feet.

Every time I see the word stopping power I want to :barf: Im an armed civilain who uses a handgun as a LAST RESORT for self defense, stopping power is for cops and ninjas that go into harms way.

WildinarticulatethisamsorryAlaska

threefivesevenmag
August 2, 2006, 12:35 PM
Agreed. It's not necessarily the caliber, it's the person behind it. WildAlaska made it out okay and nobody was hurt in the process. All the other factors of caliber selection are negated.

Roberta X
August 2, 2006, 12:55 PM
Hooray for WA and Threefivesevenmag!

The "right" caliber is the one you will carry. Having a nice 1911 is no help at all if you're not able to carry it consistently, whatever the reason.

I own a lot of guns. The one that's most often on my person is a silly little DAO Colt Pocketlite .380. Not because I have worked out some specific .380 round that will take down a zombie but because it is a reliable gun I can carry in nearly every situation.

Just as WA said, the first rule is, "Have a gun." Maybe it's a Kel-Tec .32; maybe it's a flat and nasty Tokarev TT-5 or one of the zillions of .25s and .32s cranked out in Spain during WW I and after: it is still better than a purse with a brick in it or a sharp stick. It's better than a celphone or a stinging rebuke.

"The best is the enemy of good enough." I've been held up at gunpoint twice, each time by nervous youth weilding rusty small-caliber revolvers. While a .45 or Dirty Harry's .44 mag would have been nice, I was empty-handed. I'd've given my eyeteeth for WA's Kel-Tec. I'd've given my eyeteeth for a 1907 Savage .32 with a full magazine.

The idea isn't to fight a war, it's to live within our civilization and get home alive. Sometimes that means a plug-ugly or unloveable sidearm; sometimes it means a mousegun.

Holman
August 2, 2006, 02:54 PM
Carry the caliber you are most comfortable with. A gun in hand is better than no gun at all. I own several handguns from .38 Special to .44 Magnum and my favorite carry gun is my .38 special. It's not the size of the gun that matters, it's can you hit where you aim if you have to use it? One shot in the heart from any caliber is effective and will get the job done.

mbs357
August 2, 2006, 03:00 PM
This is a really popular thread!
It's been in the "last post" box on the main forum index every time I've checked the page for quite sometime, and I've been here rather frequently in the past few days. =)
I'll just chime in to say that I'm glad you came through ok, WA. ;D

odessastraight
August 2, 2006, 07:12 PM
W.A. if you feel comfortable with pulling a .32 on Big Foot then I, nor any other back seat driver should question your judgement in that matter. It worked for you. Congratulations. I have a different opinion about using mouse guns as CCWs and want what I consider effective in a package that I WILL have with me always. This has come down to a snubby in either .357 or in .44 special. It weighs a tad more than your Secamp, but I can live with the extra weight for what I consider effective stopping power. Anyway, I'm pleased that it worked out for you so well.

About calling LE... Hummmmmmm, I firmly believe in the rule of law and have lived a law abiding life (at least to the extent that I quallify for a CCW permit), but I don't think I'd have called the law in WAs case. I'm libertarian enough to feel that we don't need the government (to include LE) so involved with our private business. That was between WA and the Big Foot punk...WA solved the problem without LE. Yeaaaaah, had he took off shouting that he was going to call the cops on me then I WOULD have beaten him to the punch to cover my 6 o'clock.

CWO4USCGRET
August 2, 2006, 10:19 PM
called the law in WAs case. I'm libertarian enough to feel that we don't need the government (to include LE) so involved with our private business. That was between WA and the Big Foot punk...WA solved the problem without LE. Yeaaaaah, had he took off shouting that he was going to call the cops on me then I WOULD have beaten him to the punch to cover my 6 o'clock.

My bold highlight, Odessastraight's comment. I am amazed by how many who have responded to this thread are so adamantly opposed to calling the police in this situation. Also amazing is how many ae actually debating the caliber of the gun he was carrying. Proficiency and competence regardless of caliber is more important then bullet size. I carry everything from .22 lr to .41 Magnum, depending on the occasion. More often then not, it is either a PPK in .380 or a ParaOrd Warthog in .45 ACP. I am proficient with all my handguns, know their limitations, and act accordingly. At the range the actual confrontation (within 20 feet) will happen any of those calibers are more then adequate. Silver tips are great .32 ACP rounds; hydrashok .38 special +P, Golden Saber 185 grain +P .45 ACP, .22 lr CCI mini-magnums; 215 grain .41 Magnum JHP - they will work; I know they will.

WildAlaska acted appropriately when he defended himself. No questions about that, he did what he felt was necessary; perceived a grave threat to his personal safety, and acted accordingly - got rid of the threat.

What would have happened had the assailant went after a lesser threat, someone unarmed, and either injured them severely or killed them? What if after WA sent him packing, tail between his legs, and he took it out on the next person he saw? Not caling the police to report something like that is neglecting civic responsibility; it condones illegal behavior. If you are that concerned about getting in trouble with the law for taking an action that you are legally permitted to do (instead of taking steps to help safeguard your community, then maybe you should re-evaluate carrying concealed.

Sorry guys, I would much rather be tried by 12 then carried by 6 or live with knowing that maybe had I made a phone call, someone else's life wouldn't have been ruined.

azurefly
August 2, 2006, 10:24 PM
If you are that concerned about getting in trouble with the law for taking an action that you are legally permitted to do (instead of taking steps to help safeguard your community, then maybe you should re-evaluate carrying concealed.


I think you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that some people live with the VERY REAL possibility that even though they did not break any law, or even react inappropriately by producing a firearm, they may be charged or otherwise hassled by police. It is a real phenomenon. You are far too dismissive of the concerns of others, and are acting like it should be done your way or no way.

Many people here have made clear that they take responsibility for themselves, as they well should, and will not put their necks out necessarily for the rest of the public. After all, each member of the public should be taking responsibility for his or her own safety. I don't owe it to the next person down the street to risk having a cop give me a hard time about my pulling a gun on "Bigfoot," especially since my view is that joe-down-the-street ought to have seen to his own protection himself.

-azurefly

CWO4USCGRET
August 2, 2006, 10:35 PM
I think you are stubbornly refusing to acknowledge that some people live with the VERY REAL possibility that even though they did not break any law, or even react inappropriately by producing a firearm, they may be charged or otherwise hassled by police. It is a real phenomenon. You are far too dismissive of the concerns of others, and are acting like it should be done your way or no way.


Azure, it isn't my way, it is what any law abiding citizen should do.

My last comment on the issue.

stephen426
August 2, 2006, 10:55 PM
CWO4USCGRET,

While you might be an outstanding officer who understands and respects the right of citizens to bear arms, the negative attitude and hesitance to call LEO by some members who posted on this thread may have been caused by a negative experience from some stupid arrogant prick with a badge who thinks only LEO should have guns. I hope that only describes a very small percentage of LEO, but I have personally run into a few of them. Don't take it as a personal attack.

azurefly
August 2, 2006, 11:16 PM
Once again, what every citizen should do cannot be addressed by simply acceding to what you think they ought to do a la being so altruistic about the safety of hypothetical future victims of "Bigfoot" who may or may not even come to exist, that they expose themselves to what they perceive to be the potential for persecution and malicious prosecution by local law enforcement.

Me, I would leave the weighing of whether to call the police and say, "I just had to pull a gun on this guy who accosted me in a threatening manner," to the individual, who is more likely to know (or have a sense of) how sympathetic his local law enforcement agency is to citizens doing that kind of thing.

-azurefly

Lancel
August 3, 2006, 12:01 AM
Reporting to the police means using common sense.

For those posters who are afraid to call the police: Just report the presence and actions of a bad guy. You don't have to call 911. You can either go in person or stay anonymous if you like and just call the station.

Keep it simple. You don't have to confess that last year you were drunk in Paducah. Just consider your words to report the bad guy's location, appearance, and actions.

It's not about you, it's about the bad guy.

It's always possible to refer to your 'good citizen' call at a later time if needed.

This is not intended to second guess Wild's action, he did well, attack stopped, no blood shed. Sun Tsu would be proud.

He chose not to call the police after considering that specific situation. That's different from someone giving generic advice to not call the police because you are afraid of them.

Larry

odessastraight
August 3, 2006, 12:03 AM
Gunner (at least we call you guys "Gunner" in the Marines), I respect you for the forcefull presentation of your convictions/opinions (Heck, I never met a CWO4 who didn't have those qualities), but I do think you're being a tad too PC and too much of a "company" man in this instance. I carry my CCW to survive a threat of grave injury or death not to make the world a safer place for others.

You seem to have a somewhat inflated regard for LE. I have friends and relatives who are LE officers...good folks. Some are not all that good and I'd avoid having them around if I can have a choice. It's only common sense to recognize that fact. Heck, LE works for us. Our taxes pay for their keep. We can decide whether or not to involve them in certain situations as described above.

Well, since you said that was your last comment on the matter I feel like I'm picking on an unarmed man...so I reckon I'll just let you slide.

swk314
August 3, 2006, 12:08 AM
I believe that it is civic responsibility to call the police if you ever had to brandish a firearm to defend yourself. But i can understand where azurefly is coming from since i do live in Massachusetts. It is extremely hard in some places just to get a license to carry. I live in boston and they want you to either own a business or be a crime victim just to even give you one(assuming that you survived the criminal attack). People here are afraid of losing their license if they had to call the cops to investigate. Many people are afraid they they themselves are going to end up in handcuffs, while the perp goes on about his business. If they do have to shoot they always hear the same thing, you should have called the police. I bet most times they will revoke the license and take any guns you have into police custody, leaving you defenseless again. Should people always call the cops? Probably. Will they always call the police? Probably not? And in some cases I can't blame them.

azurefly
August 3, 2006, 12:14 AM
For those posters who are afraid to call the police: Just report the presence and actions of a bad guy. You don't have to call 911. You can either go in person or stay anonymous if you like and just call the station.

Keep it simple. You don't have to confess that last year you were drunk in Paducah.


Did you miss the part where I hypothesized that the gorilla, once picked up, might start telling the cops (who may or may not be sympathetic to CCW) that some guy at such-and-such parking lot pulled a gun on him?

Who knows whether that's going to end up burning you or not. Risk it? Hey, man, I'm not making the decision for you -- don't try to make it for me.

-azurefly

azurefly
August 3, 2006, 12:21 AM
I believe that it is civic responsibility to call the police if you ever had to brandish a firearm to defend yourself. But i can understand where azurefly is coming from since i do live in Massachusetts.

Holy Moly -- you live in Massachusetts and you still believe it is your civic duty to put yourself and your freedom on the line knowing that the overwhelming civil authority in MA is steadfastly hostile to your right to KABA?! :eek: Talk about misplaced loyalty! You might as well tell me that I should return the dropped wallet to a guy who just robbed me, after it fell out of his pocket while he beat me!

There is such a stark disconnect between your first sentence and the rest of what you said in your post. I can barely believe that after noting all of that, you still feel that a person has an obligation to call the authorities -- when they're the same authorities that don't give YOU the benefit of any doubt when it comes to having or using a gun! :rolleyes:

-azurefly

azurefly
August 3, 2006, 12:25 AM
Remaining true to the heart of the original subject --
can anyone say whether there actually is a LEGAL requirement of any state's CCW license that mandates that a licensee notify the police if a gun is drawn against a person in self defense or any other situation involving display or use of force?

Is there any statutory requirement to notify authorities that you had to use a gun? Of course if you shot someone, I imagine something might obligate you to notify authorities, but I admit I don't know where even that is found. But if you aim a gun at some prowler from your porch and he runs off, does any law say you have to call police? If not, what about if you FIRE the gun but don't hit anyone or damage any property?


-azurefly

swk314
August 3, 2006, 12:44 AM
Azurefly,
Hence the reason why i will be moving to Vermont in just 7 days. I think it would be a good idea to call the police just to cover your 6 o'clock. if it's on record that you had to defend yourself and that guy comes back, then you are covered. I agree with you as to why people don't call the police. Especially after living in this draconian state. I don't know if this is the way i would handle the situation. I don't know where you live, but here in Mass it's usually the first person to call the police that are often times regarded as the victim. I have talked to many lawyers about this and alot of them tell me this is the way it is here.

Lancel
August 3, 2006, 01:48 AM
Did you miss the part where I hypothesized ...
Nope, I didn't miss it-- I dismissed it.:)

To me it's not a matter of calling the police to inform them that I had to draw my weapon. It's about reporting a bad guy. I don't have to volunteer everything I know or did at the time. Whether I wore boxers or briefs is moot.

...the gorilla, once picked up, might start telling the cops...
He may do that anyway whenever he gets picked up, today, tomorrow, next month. It's not a secret if the bad guy knows about it (along with any witnesses - motorists, window watchers, whatever- I didn't notice because of my tunnel vision at the time).

If the subject comes up, I'm on record as being a concerned, law abiding citizen.

Larry

Lancel
August 3, 2006, 02:12 AM
A sidenote:

It's unfortunate that some of my fellow Americans see the police as another version of bad guy.

I've been to those places both here and overseas.

I do hope that those living in the oppressed territories are able to escape or elect a new government someday.

Larry

Edward429451
August 3, 2006, 10:13 AM
Reporting to the police means using common sense.


So is not using power tools that aren't grounded. Most of the time it's ok to use that tool, ie the sun is shining, the power wire lays on dry ground. If it's raining and your ladder is metal and the power cord is laying in a puddle though...thats when common sense kicks in and the tool is not used.

The police administration & procedures is not grounded to the people anymore. Most of the time it's ok to use the tool but more n more people get electrocuted by trying to do the right thing.

It is unforunate that people are seeing the police as a potential threat to themselves. That's cause & effect. We didn't get up and decide oh lets make the police the BG today for no reason.

Come on Wild, you're on a metal ladder in a puddle with an ungrounded (power supply)...flick that switch. It'll be ok. Uh huh. Just remember that once you flick that switch, there's no turning back. They electrocuted Labgrade for trying to do the right thing, remember?

Besides, the critical point is past now. If the guy was going to call on WA, he'd have done it already, and they'd be knocking on the door. If he calls so much after the fact now, what're they going to find? An older guy much smaller than the behemoth who works in a gunshop? And the perp prolly has a record to boot. I think you're safe from that at this point. If the guy does come back, it's going to be just as clearcut as before.

Hey look on the bright side...WA saved the taxpayers some money. Kudos.

Samurai
August 3, 2006, 01:32 PM
The question was, I believe, are you under an obligation to call the cops if you discharge your weapon?

The short answer is, no. There's no duty to report your own actions. (That's nationwide, under the 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination.) But, in my city, it is illegal to discharge firearms within city limits. As I understand it, it's like that in most mid- to large-sized cities. So, if you discharge a weapon, you commit a crime. Now, whether to involve the legal system (and waive your 5th Amendment right by confessing to firing the shot) is a tactical decision that must be dealt with one case at a time. (We are all clear that litigation is a modern form of combat, and that therefore all decisions regarding law enforcement must be made on a tactical basis, right???)

If you expect that someone will call the cops, then you'd better call. The phone call is your chance to establish justification for firing the round by being "in fear of imminent death or SBI." Besides, even if it's an accidental discharge, it would be nice to rely on that "concerned citizen" phone call as evidence of lack of malicious intent.

If, on the other hand, you don't expect that others will call the cops, or if you don't expect to get caught, then there's no reason to call and incriminate yourself by admitting to having committed a crime (i.e., unlawful discharge within city limits). You'd only be shooting yourself in the foot, so to speak...

azurefly
August 3, 2006, 01:41 PM
Nope, I didn't miss it-- I dismissed it.

To me it's not a matter of calling the police to inform them that I had to draw my weapon. It's about reporting a bad guy. I don't have to volunteer everything I know or did at the time. Whether I wore boxers or briefs is moot.

Please, it's disingenuous to imply that this is no different from whether you were wearing boxers or briefs that day. This is about the police coming back to you after you called them to report the guy, and them asking you, "So, uh, this guy says that you actually pulled a GUN on him that day. You didn't mention having done that."

Now they're ****** off at you for misrepresenting what had happened.
AND, they now don't trust the crap that comes out of your mouth because they know you will omit stuff and edit your story if you think certain parts might cast you in a negative light. With them, you have no credibility anymore. All because you deigned that you had to call them about this guy because he's such a menace to the public and you're so altruistic that you feel it's your duty to make them safer, but didn't wish to mention that you'd pulled the gun.

So my view is, you either call them about the guy AND TELL them that you pulled the gun, or you don't call them at all. The more distortion you put into your story, the more potential it has to really screw you.


-azurefly

281 Quad Cam
August 3, 2006, 01:56 PM
^^^ +1 azurefly

You can't expect the police to run this guy down, and him not accuse you of pulling a gun. Infact he may accuse you of much more than that.

Police have a problem with being open minded. If there is a problem between two people - both are suspect.

The dividing line however, is that you pulled a gun and admit to it... and the bad guy doesn't admit to doing anything wrong.

Now, if you cut out all the "he says she says..." and go on confessions. ONLY YOU have confessed to doing something that could be illegal.

I think the tables could turn VERY quickly to the scumbag pressing charges on you, and suing you in civil court.

GreenFlash107
August 3, 2006, 02:35 PM
I don't care what state you live in. If you are ccw, and you feel threatened enough to pull it, and you have the present of mind enough to call out " STOP', and they don't STOP, then by all means DROP him!

Lancel
August 3, 2006, 05:01 PM
There's no doubt that an imaginative poster can invent a scenario to support his point. I can imagine words and actions to provoke others but I try to conduct myself otherwise.

The ability to have intelligent conversations with authority figures is a good one to cultivate.
That includes conversations with bosses and wives.:)

I'm fortunate to live and play in an area where the police reaction to the original poster's actions would be praise and understanding.

azurefly
August 3, 2006, 06:21 PM
I'm fortunate to live and play in an area where the police reaction to the original poster's actions would be praise and understanding.


That good fortune is really all it comes down to in this debate we're having.
I would leave it up to the individual, in his individual circumstances, to have an understanding of whether he is likely to get praise or trouble from the police for having scared a criminal off by using a concealed carry handgun.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question, "Should WA have called the police," some members' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding.


-azurefly

CWO4USCGRET
August 3, 2006, 07:03 PM
it alone...

There is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question, "Should WA have called the police," some members' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding.

You know Azure. everyone has the "right" to do whatever they darn well please.

There is a point that I have been trying to make, that has been overlooked, missed, or just plain ignored:

My comments about calling the police have nothing to do with wether or not WildAlaska should report himself for pulling out his gun; from the sound of it, as a lawfully CCW Permit Holder he acted as he is permitted under the law and had I been arrested for pointing his gun at someone (under the described circumstances) I would be the first to send in a donation to his defense fund.

My comment about not calling the police concerns a civic responsibility to make sure the bad guy gets taken off the street before he attacks someone who isn't armed and prepared like WA. What if the bad guy, stung by his near brush with death got even angrier, broke into a house and brutally raped and murdered someone? What if, had someone done their civic duty and responsibility, called the police, gave an accurate description of the person, and he was interecepted; found to be high on drugs, had a history of violent behavior, and thanks to a phone call, taken off the streets.

What I hear you saying is by not calling the police, you condone the violent behavior, and even though you are a responsible, law abiding citizen, you'd rather let someone else potentially get harmed then make a phone call?

What ever happened; where I grew up neighbors (and even strangers) helped each other.

odessastraight
August 4, 2006, 04:59 AM
Lots of issues in this thread and the issue of what is or isn't effective for CCW has come up. WA's .32 was effective. That's a fact. The BG backed down. Had he not...??? It's no skin off my nose what anyone uses for CCW, but I must say that claiming .22s and .32s as effective against 200+ pound, mean tempered BGs seems about as bogus as would claiming effectiveness for shooting geese with .22 rat shot or shooting Mule deer with a .30 Carbine.

Welcome back, Gunner. I would have bet at least even $ on your return. I don't share your feeling of any kind of obligation to save the rest of the world from your perceptions of remote hints of danger. Heck, we've got enough politicians who play that game.

cpaspr
August 4, 2006, 01:44 PM
Cause I can see legitimate concerns for both sides of the fence.

Yes, CWO4USCGRET, whatever did happen to when neighbors and strangers helped each other? Well, for one thing, and I know I'm preaching to the choir here, over the last 20+ years enough people have had their keisters sued off way too many times for doing "the right thing" to make a lot of people gun shy (no pun intended).

What ifs, shouldas, wouldas and couldas. No one knows. That's the problem. What if WAs bigfoot sees the error of his ways after staring down the barrel of that Seecamp? What if he cleans up his act and becomes a model citizen; heck, what if he becomes a spokesperson for the local constabulary among what used to be his peer group about how being a BG can get you real dead real fast? We just don't know.

And those of us on this forum don't know if the local situation in Anchorage that Ken may have to face if he reports the incident could potentially risk his entire livelihood. If Anchorage has some overagressive DA and hotheaded cops who don't support RKBA, he could theoretically risk losing not only his CC permit, but his gun owning rights as well. Note his occupation. Gun Store Owner. That means he could potentially lose everything, if the political situation is bad enough.

It shouldn't be that way, but we all know that in some places it is. That's just it. We don't know. And sometimes the possible risks others might end up facing, like in your last posted example, just aren't worth what might be more certain personal consequences.

azurefly
August 4, 2006, 02:21 PM
What I hear you saying is by not calling the police, you condone the violent behavior, and even though you are a responsible, law abiding citizen, you'd rather let someone else potentially get harmed then make a phone call?

What ever happened; where I grew up neighbors (and even strangers) helped each other.


Wow. Where do you get off putting words in my mouth that I "condone the violent behavior," and would "rather let someone else potentially get harmed then [sic] make a phone call"?! :mad:

That's reckless and irresponsible of you, not to mention quite defamatory.

Like someone else here said, I carry a gun for PERSONAL PROTECTION, and it is not my responsibility to see to the safety of the general public. While I understand the concern that the guy may set off to hunt a less prickly victim, I would have to, like anyone else, weigh the potential for ME to get in trouble.

Let's change the situation a bit. You confront a similar vagrant in a place where you technically were not supposed to have your gun. Maybe you were picking up your girlfriend at a local university, or you had dropped into a local bar and grill kind of restaurant and had a burger and a coke (no alcohol), but the place is the kind that is circumscribed by the terms of your CCW license.

Now you call the police. They pick the guy up. He makes a counter-assertion that YOU pulled a gun on him. Naturally, the police ask you about this, and you have to decide on the spot to deny it (and to deny even having a gun on you) or not. If those cops decide to frisk you -- and they probably will, I imagine, since a criminal complaint is being made that you pulled a gun! -- they will find that you were carrying a gun on you in a prohibited place. Yay. Your altruism just lost you your CCW license.

I stand behind saying that personal protection is every individual's onus, and I will not be held responsible for the fact that the wildman's next victim was not adequately equipped or of the adequate mindset to defend him or herself.


But really, you ought to be more responsible than to post words into my mouth like you did.


-azurefly

odessastraight
August 4, 2006, 04:10 PM
Well, just a very brief time out to wish the USCG a HAPPY BIRTHDAY. Long may your dedicated and outstanding service to the USA continue.

CWO4USCGRET
August 4, 2006, 04:21 PM
The men and women, present and past including the reserve and auxilliary and their families, thanks for the birthday wish to the Coast Guard. 216 years old; the oldest sea going military service of the US.

CWO4USCGRET
August 4, 2006, 04:47 PM
I haven't taken any comments personal. That's the purpose of a discussion board - so people can discuss things rationally. Of course sometimes when someone says something and another person doesn't like it then the fur begins to fly....

Azurefly says: Wow. Where do you get off putting words in my mouth that I "condone the violent behavior," and would "rather let someone else potentially get harmed then [sic] make a phone call"?!

That's reckless and irresponsible of you, not to mention quite defamatory.

CWO4USCGRET says wow, first I am "Killer" now I am "Defamer." Harsh words; for expressing an opinion on the subject of calling a police officer or not. Libel, is the written form; and defined by Merriam-Webster as such: Main Entry: 1li·bel
Pronunciation: 'lI-b&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, written declaration, from Anglo-French, from Latin libellus, diminutive of liber book
1 a : a written statement in which a plaintiff in certain courts sets forth the cause of action or the relief sought b archaic : a handbill especially attacking or defaming someone
2 a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means (3) : the publication of blasphemous, treasonable, seditious, or obscene writings or pictures (4) : the act, tort, or crime of publishing such a libel.

Although I am not an attorney, an opinion, based on the comments made by someone, about those comments isn't libel, slander, nor defamatory. Unless I am mistaken Azurefly, your comments on this forum indicate support to not call the police in this situation - for fear of as you put it: I want to offer to CW04 that a large part of the ambivalence that many of us civvies would have about calling the police is the crapshoot we engage in regarding whether we end up with a cop who is prosecutorially hostile to our right to carry guns, and use them for personal defense. and then this comment too: Once again, what every citizen should do cannot be addressed by simply acceding to what you think they ought to do a la being so altruistic about the safety of hypothetical future victims of "Bigfoot" who may or may not even come to exist, that they expose themselves to what they perceive to be the potential for persecution and malicious prosecution by local law enforcement., and finally this one: Holy Moly -- you live in Massachusetts and you still believe it is your civic duty to put yourself and your freedom on the line knowing that the overwhelming civil authority in MA is steadfastly hostile to your right to KABA?! Talk about misplaced loyalty! You might as well tell me that I should return the dropped wallet to a guy who just robbed me, after it fell out of his pocket while he beat me!

There is such a stark disconnect between your first sentence and the rest of what you said in your post. I can barely believe that after noting all of that, you still feel that a person has an obligation to call the authorities -- when they're the same authorities that don't give YOU the benefit of any doubt when it comes to having or using a gun!

Azurefly, based on the general tenor of you comments I have quoted I surmised that you would be reluctant to call the police to report the confrontation that occurred. Not a what if or suppose that; but what WildAlaska reported. From what I read you would be more concerned about the attitude of a police officer toward you carrying a concealed weapon then the fact that someone who actually exhibited aggressive, threatening behavior going away and possibly harming someone else. Correct me if I am wrong, but that's my opinion, based on what you have written. It is neither, libelous, slanderous, nor defamatory; it is mearly an interpretation of what has already been spoken.

We could play the "what if scenario game" all night; probably figure out solutions to all of them too...I won't though; I have commented on an actual situation, suggested that the police should be called to report the aggressor, and given my logic and reasoning for it.

If a person acts in accordance with the laws of their realm (in this case, Alaska), which according to packing.orgs link, you don't even need a permit (unless the law has changed) to carry concealed and the use of deadly force (even displaying it is using it) in this case was justified (which in my opinion I would have acted the same way) then I sure wouldn't be worried about what the police would do to me...

I can guarantee you, with no uncertainty, that even if you follow the letter of the law to the T and shoot someone, you will be taken into custody, questioned, and unless the shooting was totally bogus, released while it is investigated. You may or may not be charged with and including, murder depending on the circumstances and the bad guy (or his family) will probably file a wrongful death or injury civil suit against you. That's even if you are totally justified. What will more than likely happen is the prosecutor will investigate and say no charges, it was justifiable. If I shoot someone at work, I know I will be at home, awaiting the investigation, and since I work for the government, the civil lawsuit. Its the part of the risk associated with carrying a gun.

General P.
August 4, 2006, 04:53 PM
How can we in this country be so brazen to fight for and hope to instill freedom elsewhere when we ourselves must resort to argument whether we could defend ourselves against such offensive action as described? Maybe instead of exporting freedom to other countries we should send them our judges and lawyers :mad: .
If this guy as described put a hairy paw on me, I would surely shoot him, and again and again...because he kept getting up and after me. I would not sit opposite from him in court, his family maybe but not him, and watch him grin as I get the old shaft. But thankfully I live in a state where I think I would get a fair trial. See... now why would the assailed be concerned with gettng a trial at all.
Good job Alaska. Hope you don't have any more like it.

Holman
August 4, 2006, 05:07 PM
Wildalaska first let me say that I am glad you are ok, second you did not have to take the next step to defend yourself. The most important thing here is that you live to see another day on top of the dirt. You handled the situation perfectly.

azredhawk44
August 4, 2006, 05:39 PM
WildAlaska:

Glad you're alright. This board wouldn't be nearly the same without you. Stay safe up there!

AZRedhawkalsoputtingsillyphrasesinhisnameintributetowildalaska'scourageandwisdominthefaceofdanger44

revjen45
August 4, 2006, 06:08 PM
When I got fined for getting run over by a truck on a dark street with no crosswalk I lost any iota of trust I might have had for the law. Turned out that the law was so obscure that the lawyer I called had to look it up and get back to me. If I need lawyer to cross the street don't expect me to call the police, admit to pulling a gun, and expect anything resembling justice or common sense. I have no obligation to place my own liberty at risk and give my life savings to the legal industry to report the creep to the police so they can harrass him and maybe arrest me. If this sounds cynical that's OK. I don't trust the law or its minions and will avoid contact with them if possible. I don't need or trust the police. I have a 9mm that I do trust and that won't screw me with some obscure piece of arcane malice.

azurefly
August 4, 2006, 07:09 PM
I hear ya, revjen. Your stated experience (and you didn't even pull a GUN!) is the kind of experience I have read about and vowed to myself to try to avoid having to go through personally. How often is it that a person can learn a lesson from someone else's experience without having to go through that kind of crap himself? When we can take someone else's word for something like this we can relieve ourselves of the pain of getting a first-hand experience.

In other words, I am convinced of the dangers of calling the police (in some situations akin to this one) and I am fortunate that I didn't have to learn the HARD way. Instead, I have READ of OTHERS' experiences and learned what to avoid.


Now, as far as CW04, sir, I didn't say you LIBELED me, so I don't know why you went off on a dictionary-definition tangent. I said that your comments were defamatory. And something need not be legally actionable in order to be defamatory.

Defame: to attack or injure the reputation or honor of by false and malicious statements.

I would infer and argue that attempts to do the same fall under the definition.

You had no reason to state that I condone violent behavior, or would rather let someone else potentially get harmed then make a phone call. You made a real reach with those statements.

I'm not standing here hollering, "Oh, I'm gonna call a lawyer! Bad man! BAD!" But I think you ought to acknowledge the base attempt to put words in my mouth just because I don't agree with your views on the subject.


-azurefly

CWO4USCGRET
August 4, 2006, 07:43 PM
Infer all you want. You certainly seem to think that your answer is the only answer. If you want to make this personal don't worry, despite the numerous opportunities you have left yourself open for attack, I won't play your silly game; and that is what it is - a silly game.

I only hope that someday you may realize that calling the police to report the erratic, violent behavior of someone is the right thing to do; what would do if you were the victim of the assault after he had been chased off by someone else?

IZHUMINTER
August 4, 2006, 08:11 PM
CWO:

You certainly seem to think that your answer is the only answer.

I only hope that someday you may realize that calling the police to report the erratic, violent behavior of someone is the right thing to do;

Sir, it is you who appears to be advocating that yours is the only answer. Several folks have attempted to explain that they might not be able to inform the police of such behavior (in sufficient detail for the police to take it seriously) without themselves being deprived of their rights and liberties...and with no guarantee that the police would, in fact, do anything about the potential menace.

Saint Augustine said the pacifism is a mortal sin, as in choosing not to defend your life you are in essence committing suicide. If by informing the police of someone else's odd behavior (not dangerous behavior...not criminal behavior) could cause me to lose the tools I use to defend myself (and my family), then my moral choice is clear. I fully understand that someone else, faced with the same choice, might choose differently. I ask you to understand that as well.

Lancel
August 4, 2006, 08:35 PM
We seem to have left Wild Alaska's encounter and entered a Legal & Political discussion, so...

If the police will cause me grief and heartache if I defend myself by drawing but not firing.---What will they do to me if I draw and fire?

Maybe someone with those fears and worries shouldn't carry at all; the burden of consequences seems far too heavy.

CWO4USCGRET
August 4, 2006, 08:56 PM
I considered that, quite a bit when I wrote my responses. A few people have expressed the sentiment that they wouldn't or advised others not to call the police. Several times I have said in my responses that if you are worried about the conseqences of calling the police, then don't tell everything...I suggested that you might even say you saw the confrontation, wanted to report the dangerous behavior, but want to be anonymous about it. What is missing, in my opinion, is people not willing to help other people by doing a civic duty.

That isn't just my opinion; many people would call. I hope if you are backed into a corner and can't defend yourself for some reason, that someone will call 911 for you.

azurefly
August 4, 2006, 09:26 PM
You certainly seem to think that your answer is the only answer...


Even though I said:

I would leave it up to the individual, in his individual circumstances, to have an understanding of whether he is likely to get praise or trouble from the police for having scared a criminal off by using a concealed carry handgun.


and this:

There is no one-size-fits-all answer to the question, "Should WA have called the police," some members' insistence to the contrary notwithstanding.

aaaand this:
Hey, man, I'm not making the decision for you -- don't try to make it for me. ???


-azuresohowopendidireallyleavemyselfanywayfly

azurefly
August 4, 2006, 09:28 PM
Several times I have said in my responses that if you are worried about the conseqences of calling the police, then don't tell everything...


And then I pointed out that the police usually get to the bottom of the story eventually, and when they figure out that you had selectively omitted stuff, they're not likely to view you as a very reliable, honest guy.

We have cops here, right? What do they say about that?


-azurefly

CWO4USCGRET
August 4, 2006, 09:55 PM
call 911. If you haven't broken the law you don't have a damn thing to worry about...Tell the truth.

azurefly
August 4, 2006, 10:25 PM
Just moments ago you advocated telling an edited truth, though. :confused:

Is that the kind of "truth" you, as a cop, want to be told?

What if YOU got told by a guy that someone had accosted him in a threatening manner, and he just wanted the cops to check the guy out, and then later on as the story unfolded he ended up having to admit to you, "Uh, yeah, and I also, er, um, drew a loaded handgun and pointed it at his face. I must have, um, forgotten to tell you all that"? :rolleyes:

You wouldn't start to have reservations about giving credence to further stuff that such a guy might tell you?

Remember, YOU are the one who told us we need not tell the cops we call that a gun was involved at all...

call 911. If you haven't broken the law you don't have a damn thing to worry about...Tell the truth.

Once again, not everyone who hasn't broken the law has nothing to worry about after telling the cops he defended himself with a gun and pointed it at someone's face.


-azurefly

Lancel
August 4, 2006, 10:29 PM
when they figure out that you had selectively omitted stuff, they're not likely to view you as a very reliable, honest guy.

Examples of how to use common sense when dealing with authority figures:

LEO: Why did the gorilla stop?
Me: (courteously) 'Cause I yelled at him and showed I could fight back.

(An honest but not detailed statement)

LEO: How did you do that?

Me: I don't want to get into all that; I just wanted you to know in case you wanted to keep this guy from hurting himself or others.

OR

Me: I'd prefer not to say, I'm just telling you to be aware of this guy.

OR

Me: Neither one of us was injured. But he could be dangerous. Thought you should know.
..........
The first two answers honestly acknowledge that I have more details.
The last example reframes the question to more important elements since I've already stated that "I showed I could fight back."

Nothing in the above would count against me as a "reliable, honest guy." I'm even honest that I'm holding back.

But most of all if I was really concerned, I'd just do it all anonymously.

Larry

Lancel
August 4, 2006, 10:35 PM
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

attributed to Edmund Burke

azurefly
August 4, 2006, 11:02 PM
Lancel, you're aware, right, that it's rather difficult to make an anonymous telephone call to the police unless you're using a phone that's not yours, yes?


I find that your recommendations cause me tension. I would be very uneasy giving an evasive story like that, because as I have pointed out (numerous times) the bad guy could end up fingering you as some guy who pointed a gun at him. The bad guy will, of course, say that you did it for no good reason at all. And then it's your word against his after that.

And of course, the police will have a recording of you reporting this guy and making no mention of having drawn and aimed a gun at him.

I am no expert on it, but my intuition tells me that this is a potential recipe for disaster.

I am of the opinion that if you are gonna call the police on the guy, you ought to not try to second-guess what parts of the story you will and won't tell. What if you, when nervous, forget which parts you already told and which you omitted, and then when retelling the story you screw up? It happens. (It's how a lot of criminals get themselves screwed, actually.)

But that's also why I would want to avoid calling the cops in the first place, in some jurisdictions.

I don't know how bad the local cops in West Palm Beach might be about it if I told them I legally drew a gun on someone who was on my property and threatening me. We have the recent "stand-your-ground" law (Oct. '05) to back us up, fortunately. So chances are that here at least, I would not have such strong reservations about telling the cops what had happened.

But I don't blame people in some places, where cops and DAs are demonstrably anti-self-defense and anti-gun.

-azurefly

Richard Hanson
August 4, 2006, 11:15 PM
I will do my civic duty, that is my duty as a citizen, by exercising my franchise to elect those legislators that will support significant tort reform and who posses a profound respect for each individual's natural rights including the right to self defense. I do not consider it to be my civic duty to hazard my future, and that of my family, in an environment in which the state is often hostile to my rights and where lawyers outnumber physicians, by informing the police in any situation where there exists any doubt as to how my actions might be interpreted by the government or by a jury.

I am grateful for men like Wildalaska who exhibit both the physical courage and the moral character to defend their own liberty and I will not suggest that he erred in not calling the police in a situation where his actions might have been misconstrued. If all men where to act as rigorously and as prudently in their own defense, then I must think our society to be improved and the need for the police to be reduced.

Respectfully,
Richard

Richard Hanson
August 4, 2006, 11:26 PM
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

attributed to Edmund Burke

Lancel,

It is abundantly apparent that a good man, Wildalaska, did in fact act in a very direct manner to defend his own rights. Respectfully, evil can not possible triumph in a nation comprised of such men.

Best Regards,
Richard

Lancel
August 4, 2006, 11:44 PM
Richard,
This thread stopped being about Wildalaska many posts ago. As I said in earlier posts, Wild did well.

But it's been the longest series of posts I've had for a long time.

The conversation has reached a repetitive dead end if people don't know how to communicate anonymously (public phone is but one way) or don't see how their future and their family is in danger because the other guy couldn't figure it out either.

Time to unsubscribe (but still reachable by PM). It's been interesting. See you all on other threads.

Larry

azurefly
August 5, 2006, 12:04 AM
That seems like one of those, "These people will never rise to my level of understanding about the subject so I'm leaving" posts.

I think that all that is needed for ignorant posts to proliferate is for good men of understanding to leave the thread in disgust rather than continue to try to get their points across.


Richard, your post was excellent.

By the way, Lancel, the thread stopped being about Wildalaska pretty much after his initial post, since he did not ask a question, request advice, or invite comment. People decided to chime in and extol him or criticize him, but that itself was not "about Wildalaska" either; it was more along the lines that the thread has followed for the subsequent 5 pages.


-azurefly

chrisandclauida2
August 5, 2006, 04:37 AM
threat of deadly force is ok in all 50 states where physical force is legal. but if you shot him you would probably be in jail or awaiting trial.

a guy in az was just sentenanced to 10 years for an exact situation. only difference was a dog was added to the equasion on the attackers side.

Capt Charlie
August 5, 2006, 11:50 AM
This thread stopped being about Wildalaska many posts ago.
And.....

I think that all that is needed for ignorant posts to proliferate is for good men of understanding to leave the thread in disgust rather than continue to try to get their points across.
.....Among numerous others.

Continuing this would only be counterproductive.

With apologies to Wildalaska, that, as they say, is a wrap.