The annual cheap plastic invasion has arrived!

[FirstFreedom]

What gives when the stores put out the muzzleloaders (like Bass Pro). This year there is not a single, lone, uno, one, ML put out with a stock made of wood. Nothing but cheap black or camo plastic as far as the eye can see. What the hell? I know plastic stocks are popular with regular rifles & shotguns, but wood-stocked rifles and shotguns ARE stocked and DO sell. So why is it that BP shooters are so particularly cheesy on the gun selection?

[oldmaster111]

As an old muzzleloader, all I can tell you is that the gun makers want to attract the hunters with muzzleloaders that look like their other, centerfire rifles. Hunters probably prefer black or camo plastic. I don't hunt so I don't know for sure, but they seem to sell. I prefer a wood stock and I prefer my muzzleloaders with wood stocks also. Just my 2 cents.

[4V50 Gary]

Concur with oldmaster111. Gunmakers seek to expanded their lines into black powder so as to capture part of the market. They're not competing against the folks who make replica long rifles or even replica military arms. Rather, they're directed at modern hunters who probably have no interest in black powder and want to take advantage of an extended hunting season which is created by muzzle loading only hunts. First Freedom, I agree that there's no beauty or charm in those modern guns - its pure hunter driven.

[444]

Just a guess, I would say that plastic is cheaper.
I agree that many hunters have no interest in blackpowder per se, they just want something to hunt with. They are primarily interested in price. Performance matters less and beauty doesn't matter at all.
Maybe I am making unfounded generalizations, but it seems to me that I have met a number of people over the years that were strictly hunters. They own guns but they own them strictly as tools of hunting. They seem to me to be a very cheap lot. They get by with the absolute minimum they can.
For me, I am totally into the guns. I hunt a little but the gun I am using is my main focus and hunting is secondary to that for me. I sometimes try to come up with something to hunt just so I can use a certain gun I own for something.

[willsjeep]

An answer from a new (read inexperienced) BP shooter hunter.
I decided last year to try BP shooting so I purchased a replica BP revolver (1858 New Army) just to try it out and see what happened.
I wound up really enjoying the experience, so I started looking around for a BP rifle to shoot and use for hunting.
The budget being what it is in my home, I wound up purchasing (yesterday as a matter of fact) a Traditions bolt action BP rifle. I walked out the door with everything I needed to fire (except the 209 primers, which I have 3 or 4 thousand of already) for under 180.00.
I wanted one of the wood stock percussion cap models but could not afford the extra dollars one would cost. Yes I could have saved and bought one, but it might have been next year before the money was available for that.
Now I can shoot this one, learn what I need to, and be ready for hunting season.
SO the biggest factor for me was cost, if I could have gotten a wood stock that fit the budget, I would have.
Will

[Rachen]

Try Cabelas. They have everything from old timey Kentuckies to CVA in lines.
Flintlock, caplock, your choice.
If you want to take the rifle hunting, you might wind up better with a plastic camo stock because they are guaranteed waterproof and weatherproof, if you buy a wooden stock, it would be much more handsome, but you would have to keep it that way with wood reconditioners and special spray-lacquer to keep the wood fine and inpenetrable.

[arcticap]

I've seen people searching far and wide for wood replacement stocks for their plastic stocked muzzle loaders. But there aren't many available for purchase that I can find. There's a whole untapped market out there just waiting for an outfit to make them available.

[springmom]

If you are looking for the whole package - wood stock and all, try buying used. I recently acquired a TC Hawken, wood stock caplock, on the "used" rack at Carter's Country in Spring, TX, for a very reasonable price, about half of the new price. I think it had been used by someone who decide to try BP shooting and decided to give up BP shooting not long after, as it was in prime condition.

It looks really fine hanging over the fireplace, and no plastic on it.

I really love it - I guess that makes me a wood stock baby?? :D :D

[ArcherAndShooter]

Darned computer logged me in automatically as SpringMom.

I'M the wood stock baby.

[ZRX]

Plastic and stainless steel just feel dead and cold in my hands!

[Wild Bill Bucks]

I think it has more to do with personalities than performance. I just recently replaced the wood stock on my Encore with a rynite thumbhole stock. I haven't notice any difference in the way it shoots, but I have noticed a difference in the weight. By having the thumbhole stock I have also noticed a big reduction in felt re-coil, since my hand takes most of the re-coil off of my shoulder.
I bought mine to hunt with, not to hang on the wall and look pretty, so I guess that puts me in the "Strictly tools for hunting" category that 444 explained, but I have noticed NO difference in performance, since the stock doesn't fire the bullet.:D

[FirstFreedom]

I just cannot understand why hunters, who are also hunting during rifle season as well (presumably 90%+ of them), and who buy and use wood-stocked rifles for rifle season, don't at least occasionally want to buy a wood-stocked ML.

What I mean is, BassPro caters to joe sixpack hunter. Look across the rifles - about one-half synthetic, one-half wood. So presumably they're selling in that ratio, or they wouldn't be stocked that way. So half of joe sixpack new buyers are gettting wood stocked rifles

Now last year there were maybe 2 or 3 wood-stocked MLs and the rest synthetic. But now (so far) this year they've put out 100% synthetic-stocked ones. So I just wonder what it is that makes joe sixpack think to himself "now I like my woodstocked Win 70, but I really must have this camo plastic Traditions/Knights/whatever." :confused: As if deer can be fooled by camo guns during ML, but not during rifle season. Or taste & aesthetics just goes out the window because it's only 1 week per year?

WBB, the thumbhole stock you bought is interesting, but not really explanatory of what's happening here, since these are not recoil-absorbing thumbholes, and you are not the typical buyer. Glad to hear that that worked for you however.

[FirstFreedom]

Lest you think I may be exxagerating, here are pics of each side of the temporary muzzleloader rack.

On side 1, as you can see from pic 1, there are 26 muzzleloaders. On side 2, as shown in pic 2, there are 27 muzzleloaders to choose from. Most all of these are variations on CVA, Traditions, & Knight lines & models.

So that is FIFTY-THREE muzzleloaders, and there aren't 5, or 4, or 3, or 2, or even ONE stock that is not plastic. None! Very weird.

[arcticap]

There's still some wood stocked inline models being produced, but because they are usually much more expensive, they aren't being stocked by Bass Pro or most retailers.
With the exception of an inexpensive Palmetto inline that costs about $100 and isn't very ergonomic, I don't know of any other "cheap" wood stocked inlines that haven't been discontinued.
There's probably many different reasons for this situation, but good wood costs more money, and plastic is probably considered to be more acceptable than cheap wood by most consumers, and more successful to sell affordably to the masses by both the large manufacturers and retailers.

[Doubletaptap]

I wouldn't have nothing but wood on my guns. Hrmmph!
I believe the synthetic stock is cheaper and appeals to the hunters because you really don't have to worry about messing up the finish when hunting. They're also lighter and come in CAMO!!!! for the rifles that want to hide:D
Along with water resistance and all else they make a good hunting tool, or something you don't have to protect and worry about scratching or dinging up,therefore reducing re-sale value.
Still, my guns have wood stocks, and hunting/handling marks only seem to add character!!

I mean, what's better,showing the crew your camo plastic rifle, or explaining that little scratch in the wood happened when you shot your record boone and crockett buck with your trusty rifle?
Scratches and dings are memories of the past.
Besides that, you can't have a engraver carve a fancy scroll or animal on a plastic stock. You can't put silver or gold,or wire inlays in a plastic stock.
They are cold dead machines with no feeling to me.

George

[arcticap]

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g159/arcticap/P1000019aa.jpg

[willsjeep]

As an update to my earlier post, I have been shooting my Traditions inline 209 primer, plastic stocked ML some these last few days. It shoots very well with open sights and the more I shoot it, the better I should get.
However I am not overly fond of the plastic stock or the 209 primer ignition.
When the budget allows I do plan on buying a high qaulity wood stocked side hammer gun. Until then I will just have to shoot and hunt with what I can afford.
Remember we have the types and number of firearms we have today because our ancestors wanted something better, so if they were satisfied with wood stocked matchlock smoothbores, the more modern types would never have been invented.
I like the history of firearms just as much as anyone, but I also appreciate the modern touches.
Just my .02,
Will

[Wild Bill Bucks]

I paid $14.72 for a 1x12 pine board only 8 ft long at the lumber yard yesterday.

With the economy being what it is, the manufacturers are probably looking for a cheaper way of producing their products, and the plastic is probably cheaper.

Places like Cabelas and Bass Pro are buying their rifles by the thousands, so a price reduction of 30 or 40 dollars per unit is probably more attractive to them thereby reducing the demand from them of wood stocks.

As far as buying a side lock, try the local pawn shops, since the in-lines have come out, you can't give a side lock away. Most of the pawn shops have a room full of them they can't sell.

I agree with FF though, you would think that there would be at least a couple of wood stocks available to the consumer who might not be worried about what they spend.

[sundance44s]

Your right about checking the pawn shops for good wood side lock guns .. last year a local pawn shop sold me 5 thompson Hawkens 50 cal. for 50 bucks a piece said he couldn`t sell them anymore .. everyone wants an inline ..sure made me happy they do ..:D

[Doubletaptap]

I love a pawnshop owner that don't keep up with current events!!!
Since T/C quit making all but the .50 Hawken the prices have soared!!
Sundance struck gold!!

[P-990]

5 .50-cal T/C Hawkens @ $50 each!! Holy SMOKES!!! :eek: What a deal! I can't find one around here in good shape for less than $300 used. Wow!

Anyway, I'm a recent returnee to the blackpowder world (though I shoot Pyrodex...). My first smokepole was a cheapie, wood-stocked sidehammer Traditions or CVA. Shot it some and then cleaned it and hung it up for a few years.

Now I'm back, with one of those plastic-stocked inlines, though I may be a bit spoiled as it is a T/C Encore Prohunter Katahdin. One great shooter! It's not exactly a Joe-sixpack gun however, retailing around these parts in the neighborhood of $700.

Of course, now I'm hooked again and really want both a nice sidehammer and a cap 'n ball revolver (looking at an 1851 Navy clone in .36 possibly). But when I hit the woods this fall, it will be with that Encore. But I also plan on using it for the whole season, not just the muzzleloader season. My centerfires have been getting cold and lonely in the safe lately! ;)

[FirstFreedom]

Now I'm back, with one of those plastic-stocked inlines, though I may be a bit spoiled as it is a T/C Encore Prohunter Katahdin

Ooooh, mama, that's a nice one - if I had my druthers, that'd be high in the running of what I'd be shooting (plastic stock or no!) - I love the handiness of that li'l 20" barrel. What kind of groups do you get with it?

[P-990]

FirstFreedom,

I get about 2" at 50-yards, for most sabot/bullet combos. It seems to have a preference for Pyrodex pellets rather than 777. Haven't fired it with any loose powder yet, but I plan to shortly. Also plan on trying some 300gr saboted bullets to see if it can do a little better than 2" @ 50.

I've tried Powerbelt bullets in it as well and found them to be abysmal. If I wanted a group that big I'd use buckshot in a 12ga! :barf: Toss a saboted 240/250gr .44/45-caliber pistol bullet and it improves dramatically.

Really, I can't see any reason not to just use this rifle as-is for the entire deer rifle season up here. It really is that reliable and accurate so far! 100+ shots and counting.

Oh yeah, gratuitous photo plug for all drooling pleasure. :cool:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/P-990/Katahdin001.jpg

[Wild Bill Bucks]

P990,

Scope that thing and it will put same hole groups together at 50 yards.

I'm using 100 grains of 777 pellets with Thompson Mag (black) sabots with a 240 grain 44 mag hollow point pistol bullet from Hornady, and the lowest power 209 primer I can get.

Simmons Aetec 2.5 X10 scope. 1/2" high at 50 is dead on at 100 yards. Same hole groups at 50 and poker chip coverage at 100.

My Thompson has a 24" barrel on it though, but it is as accurate as any gun I own.

Last year I would take a poker chip to the range, with a hole drilled in the middle for a thumb tack, and walk out to the 100 yard range, pin it up and walk back, load my gun, shoot the chip, load up and go home.

Didn't hit it EVERY time, but it sure was impressive to the other guys at the range trying to hit a 12" peice of paper with theirs. Makes your head swell up considerable as you drive home.:D

[FirstFreedom]

Man, gotta love it - Like that Katahdin. Sounds like pretty good results - it's interesting to note that the powerbelts' performance varies so widely - shows once again that every little component change can make a difference in accuracy. Kinda funny since to hear some people tell it, powerbelts are the end-all, be-all, and since you'd expect slightly LESS accuracy from a saboted bullet vs a non-saboted one, all other things being equal, just due to the imparting of the rifling spin upon plastic rather than upon lead or copper. But who know, maybe powerbelts in other weights more suitable to your rifle would perform fine. Specialty since it's a shorter barrel than most MLs - maybe a lighter bullet? OK, keep us posted. I shall continue to drool. Although my Traditions shoots pretty darn good (3.5-4" groups at 100 yards) - far, far better than my previous ML, an NEF Huntsman. Certainly good enough for whitetails out to 100 or 125 yards.

WBB, now that sounds like a real shooter of an ML - congrats - that's more like what you'd *expect* from a T/C of any flavor. Hey, WHY "lowest power" primer? And which one would that be?

[Wild Bill Bucks]

FF,
Federal 209 primers. I read an article about primers somewhere, that said if you shoot a primer that is to hot, it has a tendancy to push the bullet forward a little, before the charge of powder, has a chance to ignite.
I was using CCI primers, and my groups were around 3" at 100 yards. When I changed to Federal , the groups came down to 1 1/2" so I figured the primers made a difference.

I noticed in the latest catalogue from Cabelas, that Winchester has come out with a primer specially made for 777 powder. I ordered some to see if they will bring my groups down any tighter. I'll post the results in a week or two.

[P-990]

Success!!! I'll take a pic and post it later, but I finally got the Katahdin down to what I expected it to do at 50 yards. Three shots into just over an inch, center-to-center. Used Hornady 300gr XTP-Mags in .452" with their sabot and 105gr of loose Pyrodex RS. Ignition was via the Remington 209 Kleanbore muzzleloader primer. I'm stoked!! :cool:

The other guys at the range were impressed by the what the smokepole would do. I've decided that loading loose powder is not such a big deal, especially if I premeasure it into my Quick-Shots beforehand. I think I've found my hunting load!

[Wild Bill Bucks]

P990,

Sounds like you got things worked out. I had the same experience with the belted bullets in my Thompson. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with them.They were also EXTREMELY hard to push down the barrel. I have about 6 or 7 guys that all hunt ML here at work, and we all tried them, and some had FAIR accuracy with them, but NONE of them liked them when they shot animals. Every body that shot deer with them have gone back to sabots, they say they don't drop deer like they should.

I use the 240 grains because my shots are generally from 80 to 100 yards, and they seem to do better for me. The 300 grain is a bit much for me , but if your ranges are around 50 yards, they are a devistating bullet.

Good Luck this year.

[P-990]

WBB,

Funny you should mention that about the Powerbelts. Two of my coworkers are muzzleloader hunters and raved about them for ease of loading and accuracy. One shoots an old-model Katahdin and the other an Omega. One uses 777 and the other Pyrodex, both in pellet format. Neither has taken an animal with them yet.

I have switched from using 777 pellets initially because I found a nice ring of crud just above my breech plug after the first 70-80 shots. I've also noticed that Pyrodex doesn't leave a hard fouling between shots in the same location in my rifle. Plus, I think the smell is part of shooting a front-stuffer! :p Reminds me of my first experiences with muzzleloading.

And yes, my ranges will most likely be within 50 yards, possibly within 50-feet depending on where I am. I'm just hoping that XTP-Mag will open up properly!

Good luck and good shooting!

[Wild Bill Bucks]

P990,

That ring of crud, from what I have been reading comes from your primers.
Type in, Winchester Triple 7 Primers, and read the article on them. This article kinds of confirms what I have been thinking about that crud ring, as mine does it with 777 or pyrodex either one.

The guys here all tell me that they could not get the expansion out of the power belt bullets that they wanted after hitting a deer. They are all shooting a 100 grain charge. Expansion might improve with a 150 grain load, but none of them like to shoot that heavy a load, it was just easier to go to a softer bullet.

[Csspecs]

The reason for the plastic stocks could also be due to the weather during the ML season. I know that in northern MI the weather is always a snow/rain mix that soon freezes. Not something I would want to take a nice wood stocked gun for, it would be ruined the first day.

[arcticap]

The crud ring that results from 777 has been described as "carmelized sucrose" resulting from the 777 ingredients. The Pyrodex fouling doesn't have the same composition even though it can accumulate. Some guns get more of a crud ring from the 777 pellets than the loose 777, and some guns have less of a crud ring from the new, less potent primers since the primer may contibute to creating it.
Someone said that the 209 primers specifically designed for .410 shotshells are less potent and can be substituted also.
So whether it's the high heat of the primers, the highly compacted 777 (in either "loose" or pellet form, or the heat & pressure generated by a large powder charge of 777 no matter which primer is used, the crud ring may mostly result from the ingredients in the 777 which produces the "carmelized sucrose" by product.
I haven't really noticed any crud ring when shooting loose 777 in smaller bore muzzle loaders with lower powder charges and many say they can shoot all day without swabbing. But if the 777 crud ring seems to be more stubborn to remove and a pain to deal with between shoots once it builds up, then it's probably not a bad idea to shoot with smaller powder charges of not so highly compacted 777 when target shooting, just enough to get the job done. Then load up to full strength when ready to hunt. And maybe even use an easier to load projectile like a plain lead conical for any necessary follow up shots to help make loading past the crud ring a bit easier in the field while hunting.