PDA

View Full Version : 1" groups at 200 yards with a 30-30


shureshot0471
July 28, 2006, 12:46 AM
Ok at my local gun store today I was talking to a guy and he said that at 200 yards with the new Hornady Lever Reveloution rounds he was shooting 1" groups. What do yall think, if this is true then that means that the 30-30 lives on. I would love to belive that this is true.:D :D :D

Scorch
July 28, 2006, 01:26 AM
I saw the test G&A did on the LeverEvolution ammo, and it shot about 1.5"-2" at 100 yds, which is respectable for a 30-30, but there is a big difference between that and 1" at 200 yards. Buy him a box of ammo and tell him to meet you at the range because you want to see him do it again. If he can do it, you can tell your grandkids about the time you saw a 1/2 MOA lever action rifle. But get pictures, because they probably won't believe it either.

hoghunting
July 28, 2006, 07:01 AM
I'll agree with Scorch as very few 30/30s will group 1" @ 100 yds much less 200 yds. He might be measuring with a gunwriter's yardstick. As Jeff Cooper said, a gunwriter's yardstick is only 18" long as he has read about their shots, but he has seen them shoot.

Magnum Wheel Man
July 28, 2006, 08:14 AM
LOL... I can shoot 1" groups at 100 yrds with carefully chosen hand loads in my TC Contender off the bench ( on a good day... the gun & ammo shoot better than I do ), but IMO, the rounded nose of a tube mag safe bullet coupled with the 30-30's safe pressure levels, don't equal a cartridge capable of consistant groups of more than 1 shot within 1" at 200 yards...

Musketeer
July 28, 2006, 09:16 AM
http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=198

The round in question is not your grandfather's 30-30. These are not round nosed but pointed, using the new rubber/plastic tip. I still don't know about 1" at 200yd but I do intend to try them out.

shureshot0471
July 28, 2006, 02:37 PM
Well I hope that it is right that means that the 30-30 will live on. And it is such a awsome brush gun.:D :D :D

Mannlicher
July 28, 2006, 03:23 PM
I do believe that a good 30-30 will shoot groups approaching 1 inch at 100 yards. My marlin 336Y, using my handloads, and a 1X$ variable scope shoots this well.
Two hundered yards is a different thing. One inch at 200 is .5 MOA, and frankly, I say it can't be done with a lever gun and anyone's 30-30 ammo.

oh, and magnum wheel man, the ammo the guy was supposedly shooting was Horandy Leverevolution, which is NOT round nose tube mag safe stuff, but pointy bullets with a soft plastic tip.

swampdog
July 28, 2006, 04:40 PM
But get pictures, because they probably won't believe it either.

Maybe he wasn't using a lever action. If he was, I'd have to call bs on this one. I'm sure hornady is capable of loading 1/2" moa ammo. As far as your average marlin, winchester or browning lever action goes, no way. I used to have a browning BLR in .308. It was a 2" moa rifle on its best day. My marlin .35 will do a little better, but not much. The ammo is only part of the equation.

I've heard more bs in gunshops than in bars. Just last week a guy was telling me about a black bear he'd shot with a .44 magnum, 6 times. The first five bounced off it's skull and the last round flattened out on it's shoulder. He had to reload and finally put it down with a shot through the ribs. I asked him what he was using, suspecting some lightweight hollow points. Winchester 240gr jsp. Uhuh. :D Somehow, I find bullet proof bears more believable than 1/2" moa lever actions.

Our local gunshop is called Bullshooters. It lives up to its name and the owner wasn't talking about bullseyes.

"Gunwriters yardstick" is great. I'll have to remember that one.

jhgreasemonkey
July 28, 2006, 04:56 PM
I believe it was gunsandammo that had an article on this a couple months back. They are supposed to be pretty sweet. And it makes sense.

hossdaniels
July 28, 2006, 08:01 PM
outdoor life had a gun test issue a few months back and a marlin 30/30 beat nearly all of the bolt actions tested. sounds fishy, but maybe it's possible. they were using the hornady ammo.

FirstFreedom
July 28, 2006, 08:10 PM
And what color were his eyes? Cuz he's full of it.

mikejonestkd
July 28, 2006, 08:35 PM
With a stock marlin or winchester.....no way Jose..

with a custom barrelled rifle like a Brown model 97 or a tc contender custom barrel from a good shop..........maybe but probably not on a regular basis.

Sounds like the guy at the gunshop is confusing 200 FEET with 200 YARDS :)

JohnKSa
July 28, 2006, 09:19 PM
Some lever actions are surprisingly accurate with good ammo. I don't think that one can take it as a given that it's impossible for a levergun to shoot 1/2 MOA. It's not at all common, certainly, but that's not the same as impossible.

In this sort of situation, I'd be very likely to dismiss the person's claims without a second thought--but that's more because I don't know anything about his shooting ability and because I've heard some pretty crazy things in gun shops. ;)

GON2FAR
July 28, 2006, 11:59 PM
Just to throw my .02 out there....

Its doubtful, highly doubtful, but not impossible. Ive seen some crazy fluke groups in my day, when all the stars come into alignment and the gun gods smile and grace you with a group you have no reasonable right to attain. FI once saw an 870 Wingmaster slug gun, fully rifled bbl, with a since-forgotten brand of sabots print an honest 3/4" group at 100 yds....whereas normally this was a 2.5-3" gun at that distance. Just never can tell. But being a gun shop manager, I can assure you, you'll find no place on earth the tales grow taller than at the local gun shop counter. :D

ElkSlayer6x5
July 29, 2006, 12:21 AM
Is he shooting a brush gun @ 200 yds? :rolleyes: thats my question
I too must call B.S
The round in question is not your grandfather's 30-30. These are not round nosed but pointed, using the new rubber/plastic tip. I still don't know about 1" at 200yd but I do intend to try them out.
Me too, they must be magic. maybe my ole winchester can pull it off :D

Terrill
July 29, 2006, 09:27 AM
From my own testing....
About 1 1/8" at 100 yds andf 100fps faster than any other load I've tried. I have not shot it past that distance but will as soon as I get my rifle back from Wild West Guns.

BrianBM
July 29, 2006, 10:56 AM
Why is it that levers are inherently less accurate? Once a round's in the chamber, isn't accuracy more a matter of the load and the barrel then of the clockwork that got the round into chamber in the first place?

Could it be that levers are generally built, and barrelled, to cruder tolerances in the first place?

Anthony Terry
July 29, 2006, 11:40 AM
alot of these guys on TV and in mags. use these products and make them look awesome to sell them. they get paid to do that. there could be a little difference in trajectory, but not alot more in a 30-30. like using these bullets and beating out a bunch of bolt guns, thats just unbelievable. that type of bullets were they using the the bolt rifles? i bet not premiums. they got paid good to advertise like that id say.

JohnKSa
July 29, 2006, 02:39 PM
Why is it that levers are inherently less accurate? Once a round's in the chamber, isn't accuracy more a matter of the load and the barrel then of the clockwork that got the round into chamber in the first place?It's not a function of the action of the rifle, so much as it is a product of the stock design of most common lever action rifles.

You're right, there's nothing inherent in the "clockwork" of a lever action rifle that contributes to typically mediocre accuracy. However, two piece barrel banded stocks and tubular magazines hung from the barrel are not generally considered a recipe for a sub-moa rifle.

MeekAndMild
July 29, 2006, 04:07 PM
However, two piece barrel banded stocks and tubular magazines hung from the barrel are not generally considered a recipe for a sub-moa rifle.
I was thinking the same thing John. When I sight in for hunting I'll usually take a couple of other rifles so I can have something to do during the 10-15 minutes it takes for a levergun to cool enough to where its point of aim returns. I think its the barrel band though I've heard folks who believe the magazine changes things more.

BrianBM
July 30, 2006, 02:43 PM
Thank you, I'd wondered why we never hear of sub-MOA lever guns.

Are lever guns that use a magazine that mounts into the reciever more accurate? Surely you don't HAVE to use a tubular magazine in order to have a lever gun.

Harley Quinn
July 30, 2006, 02:46 PM
Some one is pulling the leg of the original poster. 200yds is along way off.

HQ:rolleyes:

JohnKSa
July 30, 2006, 08:48 PM
Thank you, I'd wondered why we never hear of sub-MOA lever guns.Well, I've heard of a few, so that's not entirely accurate. They're just not terribly common.Surely you don't HAVE to use a tubular magazine in order to have a lever gun.No, and you don't have to have a two-piece stock either. With the possible exception of pump-actions and recoiling barrel designs, there aren't many accuracy issues that relate directly to the style of clockwork used in the rifle. Most have a lot more to do with stock design and "interference" with the barrel.

shureshot0471
July 30, 2006, 10:57 PM
Looks as we have stired a topic good statements guys have really learned alot. Now lets throw this in the tequne was to preform this as a proper bench test. This is how they got the 1" groups. Now what do yall think still believe me.:D :D :D

Desertfox
July 31, 2006, 09:48 PM
I just tested my Marlin 30-30 with the new LeverEvolution rounds at 160 gr. from hornady against good ole 150gr. silvertips.

I used a led sled just to put it on an even playing field.

My daughter did the shooting with a Nikon Pro Staff scope and Weaver mounts.

At 50 yards she groups the silvertips at 3/4". At 100 yards 2".(3 shot groups)

The Hornady's grouped tighter at 50 but were 3 inches right.
At 100 they were 5 inches right and 5 inches high in a 1 1/2 " group.

We have no reason to shoot 200 yards so we didn't. I will next time out.

Heaver rounds in the hornady yet they hit higher. The right must be due to the barrel twist and bands etc.I could sight the scope in with the Hornadys but she is hoping to shoot her first deer this fall with it and I wanna use silvertips.

Art Eatman
July 31, 2006, 10:49 PM
Brian, the accuracy issue gets into the "free floated barrel" deal that's talked about so much for bolt actions.

With a tube magazine, the barrel bands create stress on the barrel as it heats up at a different rate than the magazine tube. Same thing for the barrel bands and the wood of the forearm. The barrel heats up both more and more rapidly than either the tube or the wood. It "grows" in both length and diameter. The amount of stress changes as the barrel gets hotter from firing a group. The change in stress is what messes up the deal for tight groups.

Art

BrianBM
August 1, 2006, 06:45 PM
I take it, then, that the first shot out of a given lever ought be more or less the same as that out of a bolt made to the same tolerances, of the same length, and with the same cartridge?

Thinking about it calls to mind a photo, or an illustration, of some exotic rifle that was made for some ultrademanding shooting event. Might've been winter biathlon, but I don't remember. Anyway, the rifle LOOKED to have a tubular magazine, but the barrel and mag had NO physical connection whatever. They both grew out of the action like parallel cornstalks. What am I talking about?

JohnKSa
August 1, 2006, 10:22 PM
Not necessarily, the more stuff that's in contact with the barrel, the more likely it is that something will rattle, vibrate, unevenly bear against, or otherwise interfere with the barrel and thus alter the point of impact unpredictably.

What you're describing sounds like a stabilizer of some sort. Having some weight out front on a rifle tends to stabilize a shooting position during offhand (rifle is not rested) shooting.

The Texican.
August 4, 2006, 09:59 PM
it isn't how many shoots you can put in a quarter, but if you can drop the prey or not................... it dosn't matter to that deer, turkey, coyote how close your pattern is when you hit it in the kill zone which is larger than a quarter. :rolleyes:

My left handed wife uses my old 30-30 with sabot bullets and has consitently dropped deer and turkey at 100 to 160 plus yards.

Will have to buy her some of these new bullets to see if they work. :D

guntotin_fool
August 17, 2006, 01:55 PM
I have a 30 30 in a model 99 savage that will push the one inch barrier, maybe one in ten groups will get under an inch at one hundred yards.

I had a 788 that I was forced to sell many years ago that would shoot under 1" with scary regularity. IF and ONLY IF that guy has one of those, would I believe that he had a 1/2 moa 30-30. I still have a 6mm and a 22-250 788 that will not shoot over an inch.

Art Eatman
August 17, 2006, 02:36 PM
For a hunting rifle, the Real Deal is whether the first shot from a cold barrel on opening day goes to the same spot as it did when you sighted in, and does it again later on. Group size is pretty much unimportant, other than an overall quality check.

I dunno. I haven't needed over two shots on Bambi but once in my whole life. Darned few even needed the second, except as a coup de grace.

Art

MeekAndMild
August 17, 2006, 07:10 PM
But its still hard to believe that a lever action rifle with a barrel band will shoot warm where it shoots cold.

FirstFreedom
August 17, 2006, 07:54 PM
Lately it's been good fantastical reading on TFL - 1/2 moa .30-30s @ 200 regularly, hits with M4 @ 900. We should be notifying these guys to update their website:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~spok/grimmtmp/

jroth
August 17, 2006, 09:39 PM
will hold the SR-2 X-ring with my handloads, from sitting position.
I'm interseted in this new ammo due to the heavier bullet and a shorter OAL compared to a Win150gr factory round.