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KBrown
July 25, 2006, 01:39 AM
Hi all,

I inherited what looks to be an old French side-by-side shotgun from my Dad. I'm curious to find out exactly what it is (manufacturer/make/model) and maybe a rough estimate as to its value. (A good idea for insurance purposes if it's worth anything.)

The markings on the bottom of the barrel (from top of barrel downward) are:

- MA
- St. Etienne 18,2
- 65
- 822
- Choke Rectifie (in an arc)
- (crown symbol over the letters "PT")
- RESSUE ET RETREMPE
- ACIERDECARBURE AU BOIS (hard to read this text)
- (some indistinct symbol inside of an oval)

On the metal inside the breech of the stock (the watertable I think it's called?) there are the following marks:

- (crown symbol over the letters "PT")
- 822

The metal in the breech area has lots of fine, ornate scrollwork on it. It looks very much like the Darne shotgun listed at the top of this page: http://www.gunshop.com/darne.htm. The difference is that the metal and scrollwork on my shotgun is straight up and down in front of the triggers, whereas the metal on the Darne shotguns goes back over the top of the triggers. The barrel opens downward by rotating a large thumb lever on top.

I hope this info helps. If need be, I can take some pictures of it if that would help identify it.

Thanks!

James K
July 25, 2006, 09:27 PM
I can tell you that it was made in St. Etienne, France, a major gun making center. It is 12 gauge (18.2mm), chambered for 2 1/2" (65 mm) shells. (Modern American 12 gauge shotshells are 2 3/4" and should not be fired in a 2 1/2" chamber.)

The crown and "PT" is the standard St. Etienne smokeless powder proof mark.

I can't help with the other marks, but maybe someone else can.

Jim

johnbt
July 26, 2006, 07:22 AM
ACIER DECARBURE - steel decarbonized

AU BOIS = with wood

Okay, my last French class was in 1969, but I think this is right.

Choke Rectifie - choke regulated/adjusted ?

RESSUE ET RETREMPE - sweat and retempers <= Google translation :D I cheated on this one.

John

(edited for spelling - the English words of all things)

mete
July 26, 2006, 09:17 AM
John, that doesn't make metallurgical sense. Perhaps it's Acier de carbure au bois -steel of wood carbon [ charcoal ] ? Let me do some checking.

johnbt
July 26, 2006, 01:28 PM
I was thinking along the lines of decarbonized using a wood or charcoal fire...instead of coal or peat or old phone books or whatever else they used to burn back then.

So off I go surfing. The e-gunparts forum has two answers to a question about decarbonizing. The first is that the manufacturer uses it to mean what they like. The second is:

www.muzzleblasts.com/vol4no3/articles/mbo43-3.html "Basically, that is homogenous wrought iron that has had excess carbon burned out. Link above is a good article on making of gun metal in the 1800's at the Remington forge. I would check with Remington before firing this with ANYTHING- schrapnel gets SO personal. Good luck- and please let us all know what you find."

John

mete
July 26, 2006, 03:39 PM
John , that's an excellent reference ,I'm saving that one ! It does clarify things but you do have to understand the whole process and terminology.:)

Dela-Where?
April 27, 2009, 11:49 AM
I have nearly the same shotgun as KBrown (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/member.php?u=41144)!

The markings on the bottom of the barrel (from top of barrel downward) are:

- UMA (though my research says the M is really Antlers indicating that it's rated for hunting.)
- St. Etienne 18,2 (there's an insignia in front of this though I cannot make it out.)
- 65
- Choke Rectifie (in an arc) Superieur (underneath)
- (crown symbol over the letters "PT") with some kind of X looking insignia under it...
- ACIER COPMPRIME over a cannon
- RESSUE ET RETREMPE (under the cannon)
- An Oval with 3 stars in it

On the metal inside the breech of the stock (the watertable I think it's called?) there are the following marks:

- (crown symbol over the letters "PT")

There is also a 4 digit number 2119 with a sideways 1 after it (stock number?), and a 5 digit serial number in the low 67000 range; these are on all parts of the gun.

coolforgot
September 2, 2010, 01:29 PM
:cool:
Could the P.T undercrown stand for Phillipe Regina ?
I have a similar French S/S hammers with
St Etienne
L50
65
17.0
I take it it's a 21/2" chamber ?
what would the equivelent 'bore' be ?
I have seen the following comparisson on Wikipidia, but still unclear ?
14 17.60
16 16.83

cheers, coolforgot

SDC
September 2, 2010, 03:10 PM
The "PT" stands for "Poudre T" ("Powder T"), which was the type of smokeless propellant they used in the proofing test; like the Belgians, the French specified that the powder used had to be marked on the proofed firearm.

coolforgot
September 3, 2010, 08:32 AM
Mine definately has a P R under a Crown

what would the equivelent 'bore' be ?
I have seen the following comparisson on Wikipidia, but still unclear ?
14 bore = 17.60
16 bore = 16.83 ?

I have 17 stamped on Barrels ? :cool:

Jim Watson
September 3, 2010, 09:27 AM
17 mm is probably the diameter at the choke of a 16 gauge.

PetahW
September 3, 2010, 10:25 AM
[an old French side-by-side shotgun from my Dad.]


[I'm curious to find out exactly what it is (manufacturer/make/model)]

FWIW, w/o a trip to France, AND a talk with older/knowledgeable gun people there, that may be an insurmountable task - since the reason guns like these were unmarked by a maker is that they actually had no single maker.
These type guns, referred to as "guild guns" today, were each made by several different entities (people/families/small partnerships/etc) - one of which was most likely an expert barrel maker, another an action maker/actioneer, and yet another a stockmaker.

All the "marks" are the legal marks required in Europe's various countries (France in this case), to both "prove" that the gun was made well enough to fire/use, in some case what it was made of, and to explain what ammo it took in the event that somebody who happened across one didn't know.


[ and maybe a rough estimate as to its value.]

Guild guns, some very ornate indeed, generally have low collector attraction, with most of their value lying in their utility - which should always be verified by a competant gunsmith prior to use.

.

oneounceload
September 3, 2010, 02:48 PM
FWIW, w/o a trip to France, AND a talk with older/knowledgeable gun people there, that may be an insurmountable task - since the reason guns like these were unmarked by a maker is that they actually had no single maker.
These type guns, referred to as "guild guns" today, were each made by several different entities (people/families/small partnerships/etc) - one of which was most likely an expert barrel maker, another an action maker/actioneer, and yet another a stockmaker.

All the "marks" are the legal marks required in Europe's various countries (France in this case), to both "prove" that the gun was made well enough to fire/use, in some case what it was made of, and to explain what ammo it took in the event that somebody who happened across one didn't know.


[ and maybe a rough estimate as to its value.]

Guild guns, some very ornate indeed, generally have low collector attraction, with most of their value lying in their utility - which should always be verified by a competant gunsmith prior to use.

.

Always interesting because many of the English "BEST" guns were made the same way - a lone soul in one hamlet made locks, another the action, another the stock, etc..........and then they were "finished" by the name brand house and sold as such - yet THOSE guns have HUGE collector value......

James K
September 3, 2010, 02:53 PM
I am sure there are still interested people, but note that the thread is over four years old.

Jim

PetahW
September 3, 2010, 06:42 PM
Yep - a good, old-fashioned zombie thread........... :p

BTW - Since "English" is the official language in the US, and France hasn't exactly been the best of friends with the US in over 40 years - everyone gets one guess which one there's less collector interest in: French shotguns, or British ones. :D

.

1981cj7
November 23, 2011, 02:30 PM
I too have one of these shotguns and mine says Rose' a' Villenauxe. I'm interested in the maker, or what to call it? It is a great looking gun and @
5 # 13 oz. it is a grouse hunters dream. What should one pay for a gun like this? I guess the more you pay for it the more it's worth. lol