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View Full Version : New draw and shooting style I never heard of


FirearmFan
June 28, 2006, 12:24 PM
I had the honor and pleasure of meeting a former navy seal in grad school who spent some time in Iraq, backed up the guys after the Somalia incident and, was a member of their jump team so I figured he would be a good person to help me improve my skillset for IDPA and basic defense.

He was showing me the draw he was taught for protective detail and it raised a question or two in my head. I have done my fair share of homework and never heard of a draw like this. I wanted to run it by you all and get your thoughts. He did mention this is appropriate if the "Bad guy" has the jump on you or time is limited.

It starts off like most others I have seen with your hand starting mid-line over your solar plexus and in a swift movement moving to your weapon which is holstered strong side. The pinkie and ring finger work under the cover garment and with your whole hand you flick it out of the way. You grip your side arm and draw until it clears the holster. At this point you turn the weapon so it faces towards your target or down range and depending upon the situation start pulling the trigger as you bring the weapon up in a classic two handed grasp. The support hand moves behind the first so you don't shoot yourself. Depending upon how fast you pull the trigger as you bring the weapon up three to six shoots could be down range before you have a two handed grip.

The theory behind it is your opponent will at the least be off balance because rounds are going past him and if you are good, they are striking him.

I though about this and questioned it because you have to think about what's beyond the target. In addition, can it be employed with any accuracy?

Thanks for reading and let me know what you think.

5whiskey
June 28, 2006, 01:42 PM
Although it've never seen them tailor it to ccw (I practice it personally, it has it's uses). The point is to level the firearm as soon as it leaves the holster and basically "shoot from the hip" all the way up to a standard weaver, or whatever else you use, stance. I practice it quite often, and with practice you can make it work to get a few hits from 5-7 yds. Don't expect them to be perfect COM, you're likely to have one in the abdomen, one in the shoulder, ect. Hey, that's alot better than taking an extra 1.5 seconds to get a perfect hammered pair COM. You'll get to hit COM just as quick as normal anyway, you just got a few not exactly well aimed rounds off first.

I also draw an extra mag out with my weak hand as I'm drawing the weapon and clasp the mag in between hands with a two handed stance. It takes a little practice to shoot accuratly while holding the mag, but you'll be able to change mags in less than 2 seconds between the last shot of the first mag and the first shot of the second mag effertlessly.

I wouldn't use this technique of firing as soon as the holster is clear if there were any other people were around. A parking lot where no one else was, yeah. Any where were other people are around, no.

Mannlicher
June 28, 2006, 03:00 PM
God forbid if your opponent is NOT off balance, or slow. My guess is that he is going to shoot you first, since he as the 'drop on you'. Still, if you are a gonner anyway, might as well try something.

BlueTrain
June 28, 2006, 03:40 PM
Unless you are limited by your official position to carrying a certain handgun in a certain way and must conform to policy--and we are all non-conformists here--then I think you have to work out your own way of doing things. For various reasons, the same thing doesn't work for everyone all the time. Of course, that doesn't mean you have unlimited choices.

Some writers who sounded like they knew what they were talking about have their own ideas about how to draw and shoot but I have found out that some of them just wouldn't work for me or, more often, didn't gain me anything. Moreover, I have found that some of my physical abilities have changed over the years and none of them have gotten any better. Allowances have had to be made for that but we all manage.

I also believe in flexibility in technique since we are rarely in the same physical position very often and you would never be in the same circumstance that you would be when shooting on the range. Likewise the target is unlikely to be stationary for very long. You yourself should also not be stationary for very long either.

I've never heard of drawing the extra magazine at the same time but it might be a good idea but maybe not, either. But under the original description of the problem, it also amounts to a question of whether your action will beat someone else's reaction. Maybe it will and maybe it won't.

5whiskey
June 28, 2006, 04:19 PM
One more thing to think about, though. Seals and Force Recon (and pretty much most military infantry) are usually in a different situation. If their in jihadistan and have to draw their secondary, well it's usually an act of extreme desperation and warrents the shots fired on the way to a good stance. They're also drawing from open carry and not concealed, so that makes a huge difference.

Try drawing your spare mag sometime, though, if you never have. It's not that hard to shoot while holding it and your mag changes will go 3x quicker with little effort.

Scorch
June 28, 2006, 04:59 PM
I spent a number of years in Force Recon, and was never taught to start shooting as soon as you cleared the holster. We were taught that if you had to use a sidearm, to draw, minimize target area by crouching or dropping to one knee, raise the weapon and fire when it aligned with your opponent. The first shot will raise the weapon to eye level. When the weapon is fully raised, use the sights. Two shots very fast, about 1 second total time.

Of course, that was on our tropical trip to wonderful Grenada, not recently. I got out of the USMC in 1986 and don't know what they are teaching these days.

Double Naught Spy
June 28, 2006, 06:13 PM
Right, it isn't a new draw style and it isn't one that is specifically associated with special forces or anything like that. What it is is a smart form of draw that allows you to start shooting once the gun has rotated to be on target. That does not mean that you have to start shooting once the gun is rotated, only that the option exists. This puts you in a shooting position long before a 'bowling' draw. The lift and rotate to horizontal (on target) also puts you in position for retention shooting, say you are fending off a person charging with a club, so you use your off hand to parry blows while shooting from a hip retention position that keeps your gun protected so that you can use it to protect yourself.

Of course, drawing on a drawn gun, as noted, has many time-related drawbacks and while you may be fast and good, the distance your hand and gun must travel are dozens of times greater than the trigger pull distance of the bad guy's gun.

For short range shooting, it is something concealed carry people should consider practicing. Most folks can shoot well at 2 yards from a retention position with only a small amount of practice. With consistent practice, you can find common but skilled CCW folks doing it out to 10 yards.

You can practice the process slowly and work it all the way through, keeping in mind that you can start or stop shooting at any time. I would suggest starting with something like a full-sized silhouette at 3 yards and with somebody assisting you to watch for possible safety violations.

Start the draw and rotate the gun to horizontal OVER the holster, stop, take your first shot.

Bring the gun up and forward along the ribs (but not touching or against the body), stop, fire one shot.

Continue to bring the gun forward to meet with the off hand directly in front of the sternum, stop, fire one shot.

Start the forward thrust with your two handed grip and about half way before you reach your normal sighting and firing position, probably BEFORE the sights are in alignment with your eyes, stop, fire one shot.

Continue to your normal firing position, stop, fire one shot.

Now reverse the process, firing along the way. If you have controlled all your shots properly, the work through the process in a slow manner, not stopping completely but continuing in a fluid motion, firing along the way.

As your skills develop, you can increase your distance. Obviously, if you are being charged by an attacker, you will be retreating. Make sure you have your control and shooting skills down properly and safe before you introduce moving into the process.

stevelyn
June 28, 2006, 08:19 PM
DNS is correct in his description of the method. There is nothing special or new about it. The military is just now jumping on the shooting wagon and starting to catch up with reality.
It's taught at the DPS Academy and it's what I've referred to as shooting from the "retention position" in other posts.

It's actually Step 3 in the 6 part weapon retention presentation. We call it the "Rock and Lock" step.
The muzzle clears the holster, the pistol is rotated muzzle toward target while still held close to the body, forearm parallel to the ground. From this postion you can shoot (we practice this as a close in live fire dill) or you can start pushing the gun forward while sliding your hand across your body to "Smack" or get a two handed grip if time and room allow.

If you want, I'll post my training class outline to give a better idea if you wish.

BTW, the method was developed by DOE because all their nuke security people were always within arms reach of people reading security badges. It provided a defesive shooting technique for them to use in close confinement and likely while hanging onto a BG without exposing the weapon out where it could easily be grabbed.

shoot2live
June 29, 2006, 10:29 PM
we do this alot in idpa. I've found a slight tilt of the gun does two things for me...since the target is at arms length, generally, the tilt clears my "love handles"...(no loss of blood :D ) and allows the slide to chamber a round.
I've held the gun straight too many times and the slide rams into my upper chest (nipple region) and that hurts !! fyi...I lock my elbow in tight to the body when i draw which helps the tilt flow a bit more naturally.

DWARREN123
June 29, 2006, 10:34 PM
Combat draw and fire procedure. For the times when things are bad.

smince
June 30, 2006, 08:07 PM
BTW, the method was developed by DOE
I don't know. Chuck Taylor taught this in the 70's as the "speed rock". It's been around for years, and by many different names.

Drawing the extra mag early may be good with Mil-issue pouches, but a good ccw open-top mag carrier will allow changes just as fast (if not faster), and you will still have full two-handed control over your weapon while firing.

Archie
June 30, 2006, 11:09 PM
Firing shots as soon as your sidearm is (what you think) level may be a reasonable thing to do in Jihadistan (thanks 0351), it is probably not a good idea in the mall.

Yes, firing shots even into the floor may confuse your enemy, but wild shots need to be accounted in the civilian world. Killing two and maiming three by-standers is not going to be accepted no matter how afraid you are. In a theatre of war, it's a sad but real fact of life called 'colateral damage'. In the civilian world (including the law enforcement sector) it's negligent homicide at best.

armedandsafe
July 1, 2006, 01:13 PM
I have taught this method for years. It is very good when done properly, but must be rehearsed constantly so you do it right, when under the pressure of combat/defense.

I lock my elbow in tight to the body when i draw which helps the tilt flow a bit more naturally.

This is essential to performing this manuever safely. I teach to forcefully push the elbow down and into the body before the first shot. This helps clear the weapon of any body parte and aligns the muzzle faster.

Pops