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Wild Bill Bucks
June 27, 2006, 11:05 AM
I here people complaining all the time about so called canned hunts on private ranches, where they take you to a feeder and put you in a stand, where you watch Bucks come in and out to a feeder all day until you find the one you want to shoot.

I agree that ,it ain't REALLY hunting, but does ANYONE really pay $1500.00 to $2500.00 with the expectation of stumbling around on a private game ranch HOPING they will see something?

That's what we have to do here in Southeastern Oklahoma. If I really want to just hang a big rack on the wall, then you pay your money and go on a canned hunt right?

youp
June 27, 2006, 08:45 PM
is 1500 or 2500 alot of money anymore? have you seen what they want in Manitoba to sit in an unheated box all day?

Tha fact is we as a society of hunters have begun to place a great value on a big horned buck. This great value is reflected by the price people are willing to pay for a big buck.

There are few people that actually know how to hunt a deer. We can sit over feeders, find a rub line, or a funnel. Go out on a ranch and actually find and pursue one buck? No one I know.

Art Eatman
June 27, 2006, 09:33 PM
The common usage of "canned hunt" is not the same as sitting in a stand near a feeder. A canned hunt is where the animal is so constrained that no element of fair chase is involved. Confinement in a small area that is surrounded by a high fence, for instance.

Hunting from a stand takes less skill than still-hunting on foot through brush or woods, but it's still fair. It's no different from a mountain lion's ambush near food or water...

Art

guntotin_fool
June 27, 2006, 09:44 PM
In most states, hunting from a stand near a feeder is called baiting and is frowned upon. So many people wet themselves over being able to say "I shot a ten pointer" or what ever that this type of shooting is becoming more and more prevalent. I think it stinks.

In my state of Minnesota, if you plant foodplots that will benefit the animals all year long, then you may hunt over it. If you just place food or mineral/salt with the intent of luring a deer, then you are baiting. Shooting over a feeder is not hunting it is culling. big difference.

chemist308
June 27, 2006, 10:52 PM
If I really want to just hang a big rack on the wall, then you pay your money and go on a canned hunt right?
Don't give in to the ad-man on that one! If you're going to drop that kind of cash get a bow or a muzzleloader, and if you must, out of state lisences. Odds are actually against you that way.

biglabsrule
June 28, 2006, 09:16 AM
Is that legal in your states, baiting. In New York it's prety shameful to have to use a salt lick or corn, and very illegal. Last fall 3 or 4 cops from New Jersey came up here and did that, got busted and fined heavily... most people respect the white tail enough to give them a fair chance around here, but if its legal suppose thats all your preference... know i wouldnt do that, or be truely proud of a rack i took that way

Art Eatman
June 28, 2006, 10:17 AM
Different states have different rules. And, it's pretty much a deal of, "You hunt your way; I'll hunt my way. If you're happy with your way, I'm happy for you."

Face it: With an urban society, there's no way that all hunters can learn and develop the skills that rural folks have. They don't have the time or opportunity. I'd rather see a guy sitting in a stand than sitting in an office dreaming about being out hunting--regardless of how it's done.

I've always been a long-haul walking hunter in my desert. Ten and more miles a day--but those days are gone. I hurt too bad to do that anymore. While I take pride in the kills I've made, I'm not gonna run my mouth against some guy who's happy that he managed to kill a good buck while sitting in a stand. He's doing the best he can with what he knows how to do. I've never seen the point in raining on some other guy's parade.

Art

Desertfox
June 28, 2006, 10:26 AM
Once again Art, you are the voice of reason.
A bad day hunting is usually better than a good day working. (unless you are Dick Cheney)
Stalking, stand hunting, ground blind hunting, chasing dogs, or drive hunting, all add up to being in the great outdoors in pursuit of your passion.

Scorch
June 28, 2006, 12:39 PM
There was a thread a week or so ago about what your definition of hunting is. I think the definition came down to pursuing an animal with the intent of bagging it.

I personally find canned hunts disgusting, as there is no skill involved in locating, trailing, or pursuing the game. Therefore, it is not hunting, it is shooting, an execution, or slaughter. Apparently SCI and B&C feel the same way, because they don't allow canned hunt trophies into the books, has to be fair chase (meaning the animal had a chance to escape).

What about stand hunting? While it's not exactly pursuing the animal, there is some level of skill or artifice involved. I'm sure stand hunters don't get one every day, so there is at least the chance for the animal to outwit or outmaneuver the hunter. So I would say it's hunting.

Coursing, trailing with dogs, ambushes, stand, still hunting, etc, all involve some skill, physical prowess, stealth, or whatever outdoor skill is needed to bring the animal down. If you agree with the type of hunting, do it and enjoy it. If you don't agree with it but it still meets the criteria for hunting, let someone else enjoy it. If it isn't hunting, then don't do it.

jhgreasemonkey
June 28, 2006, 03:01 PM
Canned hunts are okay for someone who's not able to hunt like disabled or elderly. I have been skunked enough seasons to consider it once or twice. But I am quick to realize that I hunt for the adventure and challenge. So I will stick with the old fashioned way and get one once in a while. Its more rewarding.
FYI-in Washington state you are not allowed to stand hunt, or hunt with hounds and bait. (now our cougar population is too high and affecting the deer population in parts of N E Wa.)

FirstFreedom
June 28, 2006, 03:12 PM
I agree with Art. I will say however, that if your goal is just the big rack for the wall, then fine - nothing wrong with that in my view. BUT, there's usually more to just a rack on the wall. It's a rack on the wall *WHICH HAS A GOOD FAIR CHASE STORY BEHIND IT*, that you can brag about to everyone you meet over the years, with pride. There's just less pride to it being a 'game ranch' animal (even if you're not calling that a canned hunt). But it also depends on how big the ranch is - if it's big enough, then it's really no difference from free range animals. It is NOT above me personally to go on a ranch-hunt, and I probably will for bison, exotic deer, and possibly even elk. And furthermore, I will gladly hang the rack or cape on the wall. But it's still not *as good* as a true free range story + rack. :) [for bison I will have to - that's the only way]

ninemm
June 28, 2006, 05:28 PM
I once worked with a person who told me the details of his bear hunt.

He sat in his hotel room drinking beer and watching television until about 2 or 3 hours before sunset...he then drove to his tree stand, climbed up to the stand, previously placed there by a hunting guide, and when the bear came by around dusk to eat out of the same bucket that had been baited every day for several weeks...he shot it with a Marlin 444. End of "Bear Hunt".

It was fairly amusing to hear him tell other people about the bear he shot, ie, how big it was, etc. Without saying exactly how it was done. He went into detail with me because we were friends. He had the reputation as a great hunter.

I don't have anything against people that do this type of hunting. It is not something that I would do. You can call it harvesting game or what ever you want...it just does not seem fair to the animal. JMO

Rembrandt
June 29, 2006, 06:19 AM
Big buck for $1500-$2500?.....try $6500 and up. That's what some Texas game ranches are getting. While bow hunting sheep near Kerrville, guide showed us a 1000 acre area that had nothing but Whitetail bucks in it, no doe's. Really nothing more than a commercial livestock operation where you harvest your own meat. North American Whitetail magazine had been there the week before shooting photos....next time you see those giant bucks in the magazines, look closely at the trees and background. Probably taken in the Texas hill country.

Art Eatman
June 29, 2006, 11:53 AM
"The times, they are a-changing."

I live in a tourism area, but it's way away from most anywhere, there at the west side of Big Bend National Park. What I've regularly heard is complaints about the length of time it takes to drive there, since the nearest air service is 250 miles away: "I just don't have the TIME!"

So it is with many who work long hours in cities. They don't have the time to do the old-days style of getting a season lease and spending several weekends or three- or four-day hunt sessions. But they have money.

So, as ever, where there's a market, somebody's gonna fill that need.

Most of us here at this particular forum aren't of that general group. We spend more time studying the subject of hunting, and make hunting time a priority. We're a whole different deal.

Their style ain't my style, so I just mostly ignore it. As I said before, better they're at least out seeing the "wild" :) than sitting in that office, dreaming.

Art

FirstFreedom
June 29, 2006, 04:34 PM
I've been told that there's a landowner down in Kiowa or Comanche Co., Okla, that has a big elk herd on his 4500 acres (that escaped from the adjoining wildlife refuge), and he only charges about $4,000 to guarantee a shot at a BIG bull elk, and only about $800 for a shot at a cow. Now it's seeming like a good deal compared to a $6,500 trophy deer.

[P.S. In Okla., it is legal to hunt elk in Kiowa, Comanche, & Caddo Counties provided you have a tag. The only way to get a tag is to get written landowner permission. So the landowners with elk on their land charge whatever the market bears for this permission. But these are true free range elk at this point - now that they have escaped the wildlife refuge. I think there are like 4-6 archery days and 3 or 4 gun days each year, for these 'feral elk'.]

silicon wolverine
June 29, 2006, 07:25 PM
Its simply american capitalism. while i dont think its "sportsmanlike" i guess if you want to blow the dough who cares? here in SD there is onyl one canned hunting ranch and they raise thier own animals and are perodically inspected by anuimal health officals and all shooters are reuired to have a tag.

SW

jhgreasemonkey
June 29, 2006, 07:27 PM
It bothers me that this is turning into a rich mans sport. :(

Wild Bill Bucks
June 30, 2006, 10:26 AM
Trophy hunting has always been a RICH man's sport. In past centuries, the Kings owned ALL the land and would kill anyone found poaching. In the last century, Teddy Roosevelt, hunted all over the world for trophies.

It's still pretty much the same way now, only a little more wide-spread, with more people having enough money to do it.
I'm not someone who cares enough to pay for a big rack, but I don't have a problem with anyone who does. Just not my cup of tea.

Besides, you can't cook the rack long enough to get it tender.:D

Jseime
June 30, 2006, 08:27 PM
Ah thats not hunting unless you break a sweat or get frost bite on several appendages or both its not really hunting. In my eyes theres a big difference between shooting and hunting and killing something in a fence that it cant jump is shooting.

If youve got money spend it on good hunting accessories and go do it. For the price of one trophy buck on a canned hunt you could go buy an old beater chevy 4X4 and do some real hunting outside the fence.

guntotin_fool
June 30, 2006, 09:33 PM
I think the " no TIME" issue is an excuse. For almost everyone in the USA< with 5 hours of their location there is real wild game hunting. I am positive that within 8 hours there is for all. driving time, not flying.

People are lost without hot showers, motel hunts, just walking out and learning a bit about what is going on.

Any one disagree?

Art Eatman
July 1, 2006, 08:50 AM
"Any one disagree?"

Yeah, somewhat; not totally. A helluva lot of the high-pay folks put in 10 to 12 hours a day, six days a week. Lotta stress. Lotta fatigue that militates against "just getting outdoors" in country where you can see wild game.

All manner of different types of folks. For instance, think of some guy who's never been away from a city (I once had to teach a room mate how to drive a car; he was in Grad school, but being from Queens, NY, he'd always ridden the subway or a bus.). Never exposed to shooting. Now he's 25 or 30 and somehow gets inveigled into a hunting trip.

This guy, from the gitgo, is gonna deal with camping? Is gonna have a clue about still hunting or cross-country chousing about at 10,000 feet?

Be charitable. Nobody was born an expert anything.

Art

samsmix
July 4, 2006, 03:43 AM
I gotta disagree with you Art. In my home state of Montana baiting game will draw you a healthy (and well deserved) penalty. I am an avid hunter. Avid enough to subsist mostly on venison. I am a meat hunter, sure, but have taken a number of very respectable bucks. But I have NEVER had my honor called into question as it invariably would be if I had shot deer in an enclosure or over bait.

If...and I mean IF, what these people are doing is okay by the standards of fair chase, why do so many people find it offensive? And don't tell me it's the money, because a similar amount can buy you a REAL hunt. A hunt with no bait. A hunt with a real chance for the animal to escape, not a high fence within which you can "pick up his trail" again, but a REAL chance of escape.

Don't get me wrong. It is OKAY to put down livestock (Even easily spooked livestock). That is what they were managed/raised for, but that is a "shoot" (like a pigeon shoot) not a hunt. Calling a shoot a hunt makes for a powerful taint. It is a taint that rubs off on us all.

rem33
July 4, 2006, 09:28 AM
Last fall we were hunting a area we have hunted on and off a long tine. Everywhere on the fences we kept seeing signs posting that this was "Private" hunting areas.
This turned into a rather large area for miles spread out on any land that was in pasture or being farmed, and plenty of the sagebrush areas near. Up a draw on a hill was a monster new house we thought, but it turns out to be " the lodge".
Finally we ran into a couple of guys that were fixing fences so we ask if they know any info on all this. They hand us a brochure for a new hunting club.
I looked the web site up read the pamplet and it is a rich mans sport to hunt there. They have secured 29,000 acres, quite a bit I don't have the actuall numbers in front of me but it was about $4500 to join and a couple of hundred a day or more to hunt.
I don't know if they own the land or have a lease arrangment with the land owners either way and for several reasons I dont' care for this, and hope they go broke.
I am in SW Idaho with lots of open areas and public land to hunt but for how long and what about areas of the country with not much or no puplic land. Is this happening all over? My guess this is just the begining.

Art Eatman
July 4, 2006, 03:51 PM
:) samsmix, I can show you places in the southeast where you absolutely cannot stalk. The undergrowth is just puredee too dense. Unless you're in old-growth forest, you can't see ten feet. I think of the riverbottom jungles along the lower Appalachicola River, and some timber-company land east of Tallahassee...

I can show you vast areas in the Texas brush country where, if you try to stalk, you'll wind up nekkid as a jaybird by day's end: Cactus, mesquite, catclaw, blackthorn acacia...I've killed deer in that country that had almost a total layer of thorns under the skin of their forelegs. You peel the skin back on the lower leg, and it's almost completely black from the mesquite and cactus thorns.

But I ain't in the bidness of rainin' on other folks' parades...

Art

rbernie
July 4, 2006, 08:42 PM
But I have NEVER had my honor called into question as it invariably would be if I had shot deer in an enclosure or over bait.I see little moral difference between the guy who plants lots of red oak and apple trees and puts out deer forage seed in the clearings and the guy who uses a corn feeder. I may not hunt over a feeder but I'm not about to call anyone on using bait, since the line between using bait and not is very very fine indeed. Why is some bait (acorns and apples and forage) OK but corn feeders are not?

Secondly - at what point does a high fence enclosure cease to be considered fair chase? A hundred acres? Five hundred acres? A thousand acres? Two thousand acres? I'm certainly not going to look at a guy who still hunts on a thousand acre high fence ranch and tell him that he's really not hunting simply because he's chosen to manage his land in part via the use of high fences. I still hunt on a high fence ranch that's about 1600 acres in size. I can fully attest to the fact that it's most definitely 'fair chase', high fence or not.

Art Eatman
July 4, 2006, 10:39 PM
Back, I dunno, maybe 40 years ago, the Michigan wildlife folks high-fenced a 100-acre tract that was heavily wooded and had a lot of understory. They stocked it to the limit of the land's carrying capacity for deer.

During the next deer season, they put a controlled number of hunters in the tract, carefully spaced.

As I recall from the article, the hunter success rate was around 3%. Yeah, three percent.

I hunted prairie dogs a couple of weeks back, about an hour or so east of Colorado Springs. Darned near like a pool table, and trees/brush were rare things. 2,000 acres would be easy pickings to see a deer. (Or antelope).

To me, then, the control for "fair chase" within high fencing is the terrain and the "growies" on the land. (Leaving out such ridiculous notions as some little 10-acre patch.)

Overall, for me, playing Sneaky Snake is the most fun for hunting Bambi.

:), Art

Csspecs
July 4, 2006, 11:49 PM
I hunt in the norther lower peninsula of Michigan, I have hunted the same area with my father and brother for the last four years. We hunt for three weeks of bow season and have yet to get even a doe, and we use bait! (its legal).

I know people that sit in blinds that have bait piles that are always there and they don't always get their deer.

Then I come on here and some guy from New York or Wisconsin that hunts in a corn field with a high powered rifle states that the way I hunt is cheap and unfair!

I use bait because I don't have 1000 acres of corn fields to "hunt" in. At best I can see 50 yards, without a bait pile to keep the deer busy I may not even see ONE deer (and a doe at that) for the whole season.

samsmix
July 5, 2006, 01:29 AM
rbernie,
Just to get us on the same page, where I am from "bait" is determined to be any food crop not put there in the normal course of agriculture, as well as feed scattered or deposited by hand or machine. So a little patch of corn you never harvest, right next to the pond your duck blind is on...that's bait.
We grow litterally millions of acres of wheat and alfalfa in the course of normal agriculture here. These crops would not be considered bait, and shouldn't be, because there is just too much of it for it to act as a lure in any one place.

Art,
I'm sorry if I did not tread respectfully. While I am quite emphatic about the subject at hand, I was not trying to be offensive. I also am not saying that I would not take place in a "shoot". However, were I to bag a trophy animal this way, I would always end the tale with a "yeah...I sure wish I had been able to pursue such an animal on his terms." Or something to that effect.
When high nutrient feed is fed to animals in an enclosure, it has a predictable result: they get BIG. If one were to try to submit a pen-raised & pen-caught fish as a record book catch, he would be debunked as a fraud. Is it simply an attempt at falsifying glory. That does not mean that it is wrong to catch such fish, or indeed to shoot such animals, only that it is wrong to portray the act and the outcome as something it is not.
I am pretty new here, and thus far have been very much in agreeance with most of what you have to say, but I am afraid that here we muse agree to disagree. Of course since enlightened debate is one of the founding principals of our great nation, I intend to continuue enjoying your opinion, even if I do not agree with it.

Jack O'Conner
July 5, 2006, 08:30 AM
Exotic animals are not native to North America. But they're thriving at game ranches across USA and parts of Canada. New Zealand, Australia, New Calodonia, South Africa, Argentina, and other nations also offer exotic hunts.

A trophy hunter can pursue European red stag, fallow deer or Indian axis deer + blackbuck. African sable, kudu, and gemsbok are available. Even endangered species such as addax, symitar-horned oryx, Eld's deer, and others are thriving at USA game ranches. There is a significant advantage hunting within USA as opposed to travelling overeseas.

Some of these game ranches offer shooting of fairly tame animals. This is controversial to say the least! Others (larger in size) have hunts which are challenging in terrain and getting close for a good shot.

I advise any hunter to take the time to research the game ranch thoroughly so it will match his expectations.

Good hunting to you.
Jack

Art Eatman
July 5, 2006, 11:56 AM
I can understand the use of "bait" while hunting. I don't particularly care for nor approve what's going on with breeding programs and all the supplemental feeding in an effort to CREATE monster bucks.

Sure, build high fences to keep other deer out, in order to maintain a herd at the carrying capacity of the land. Sure, reintroduce native grasses, herbs and forbs which had been lost to farming or overgrazing. That, to me, is a rational interaction with ecosystems.

But that's not the limit of what's being done on "game ranches" which specialize in these multi-thousand-dollar hunts.

I suggest that in these discussions we keep stuff separate. Hunting over a feeder in a truly-wild-deer environment, I think, is different from being set out in in a stand on one of these game ranches. In the first, there's no guarantee that El Gigantico will ever show up; all you'll maybe see is a few does*. In the second, it's pretty well assured that big bucks will continue to show up at a place where they've been trained to expect Yummies.

Art

* Whitetail bucks generally don't eat much or often, once they're in rut. They subsist off the fat buildup that occurs in the late September and October "feeding frenzy". That's why a late-season buck's tallow is commonly a thin, yellow layer instead of thick and white. So, the does come to feeders and the larger bucks hang back in the brush, watching and waiting--and you might or might not see one. Little 4-point and 6-point bucks might show up, but they're generally too small to bother with.

samsmix
July 6, 2006, 01:28 AM
Art,
I guess I never really looked at your profile. If I were from Texas instead of "Montucky" I might have been raised seeing things in a different light. I simply grew up with a different definition of free chase.

Now I do NOT mean this as a jibe, but up here we do refer to high fences, bait stations, food plots & high dollar pay for play as "Texas style" hunting, and it is usually spoken with disdain. I DO however see the need for fences in the case of exotics. It would not be the same as a real hunt in the real Africa, but I always wanted to plug a gemsbok, and TX might be on the list for that. Also, my wife and I might go on a Bison shoot next year, as the meat is wonderful. Also, we have no wild pork here in MT, soooo.....

Desertfox
July 6, 2006, 08:59 AM
Make sure when you sit down to the dinner table for some of that bison or gemsbok you say at the end of your prayer, and I quote you in saying, "yeah...I sure wish I had been able to pursue such an animal on his terms.".

Just to keep things on a level playing field.

God bless hunters of every kind!

Art Eatman
July 6, 2006, 11:20 AM
samsmix, I'd bet a paycheck that all the high-fenced land in Texas wouldn't even come close to one percent of ranchland.

The O2 Ranch, for instance, south of Alpine, is low-fence. 200,000 acres on the west side of the highway, 100,000 acres on the east side. I know of NO high-fenced ranches anywhere in the Davis Mountains. IOW, none in the four million acres that is Brewster County, or in Jeff Davis County.

I can take off from my house and not even see the remains of an old fence until I'm twenty and more miles away.

Anybody judging Texas by the amount of high fence culls his women by a mole on her ankle...

:), Art

Wisby
July 6, 2006, 12:37 PM
I think it really comes down to whats the norm in your area and how many animals are in your area and overall enviroment in your area and each individual case. For instance:
If I worked for a company that sponsered a few Trophy game ranch hunts a year, for the Triple 7 ranch or something equal for people that wanted them (kinda like Tickets to the superbowl or something) I would have no problem going since it was on the companys bill. I personally would never pay out has much money as they want for one of those hunts, thats "Just Me"
though.
For putting out a Feeder or "Baiting" depending on the situation is ok for me unless you just have Deer running rampid but I don't like using a feeder on a timer unless your hunting a lease you paid alot of money for. I mean if your feeder goes off at 7am and 7pm then it's kind of a crap shoot, but if you got a bucket of Corn with a pole sticking out out of the bottom on a trail you are sure a bucks run on and you can't see more than 15 feet in front of you and you had to cut shooting lanes just to see 50 yards then you almost have to have something to stop them or get them to you.

Or

In my current situation, there is absolutlly no way I can keep tabs on the movement of animals on the lease i'm on. Since i'm in the Navy stationed in Washington and I'm on a lease with my dad and best friend in Texas that I pay 800 bucks for and get to use maybe twice a year if i'm lucky. I will hunt a feeder and I will hunt from a stand but after I bag at least on deer be it a spike, doe or Trophy buck... I will probally stop stand hunting and do more stalking/still hunting but I have to get at least one to justify the cost of the lease in some weird twisted way in my brain.

Mannlicher
July 6, 2006, 12:49 PM
Like some others have mentioned, I am a still hunter. I prefer heavy cover, swamps and creekbeds. With scouting and observation, I know where the deer in my hunting area bed, water, feed, and play. I know what they eat, and when they are putting the feed bag on.
This is merely cutting down the odds.
Sometimes I climb up into a stand, particularly if hunting across a clear cut or hay field. Nothing wrong at all with stand hunting. Even in a stand though, you have to know your animal to know where to place the stand.
Now a 'canned hunt' is a different matter. There, the guide has done all the scouting, placed the hunter in the stand, and sometimes even drives the deer to the hunter. Some folks like that kind of action. I don't. However, I am not going to talk down to the guy who takes his deer that way. I might not have any respect for his woodscraft, or lack thereof, but he is still hunting the way that he likes to hunt.

castnblast
July 6, 2006, 04:10 PM
Ever wonder why kids don't hunt anymore??? Hunting is to dang expensive. The price we put on Huge Racks, is ruining our sport, our reputation, and could eventually destroy our sport all together. :mad: Why? We're pricing kids out of the equation. Most guys can barely afford to hunt themselves, and w/ kill/trophy fees on top of lease fees, you do the math. I make it a point to take my son hunting with me. He's 3 now, and loves the outdoors. He went with me Turkey hunting this spring and did a great job. I'll take my daughter too when she turns 3. I won't shove it down their throat, but I'll introduce it. If they like it, they can come. If they don't, I'll support them in the hobbies they choose. Bottom line, they will go. I hunted through out Highschool, and it kept me out of trouble. My friends were partying, I was out at the lease. Hunting, enjoying God's creation. It wasn't all about shooting something. But back to the subject matter. If my kids aren't welcome, I'm not going. I won't support the ongoing greed of bigger and better. That is not hunting. That is just greed, and I won't stand for it. I hope sportsman as a group will realize this before it is too late and the sport dies. We are headed in that direction, and only we can change it. Will you do your part?:confused:

samsmix
July 8, 2006, 05:56 AM
Art,
I'm glad to here you live in such open country, and I genuinly did not mean to offend. I never said it was an accurate description, but that's still what they call it up here. Now that you mention it though, that IS a rather unsightly mole she's got on her ankle! Hmmm....

DesertFox,
I don't mind eating or killing raised or even tame meat. I am still killing an animal weather I pull a trigger or pay someone to do my killing by buying meat at the supermarket.

CastNblast,
You may have a VERY good point about the future of our sport.

priv8ter
July 8, 2006, 10:51 AM
What it really comes down to is we are all shaped by how we learned.

I grew up here in Washington, so my first introduction to deer and elk hunting was the classic 'Scope, spot and Stalk' in the sage brush around Ellensburg. Getting out and walking is one of the things I enjoy. After this experience, the thought of sitting in a stand for hours just doesn't sound like FUN to me.

Samsmix, I'll tell you...Montana's description of baiting sounds a little extreme to me. Dropping a big pile of corn and apples on the ground...that sounds like baiting to me. But...buying a 120 acres, planting a couple of apple trees and some alfalfa....and then seeing what kind of deer that attracts...that's my DREAM. I would love to get a chunk of Eastern Washington land and work it to make it more attractive to the deer.

I had a thread once where I threw the smack down on guys that run deer with dogs, because it was a totally foreign concept to me...it just sounded horriblem and lazy and...ick. But, after a couple of southern gentleman took me to task and told me about all the work that goes into training the dogs, and keeping up with the dogs...I conceeded that nope, it didn't sound lazy anymore. It still didn't sound like something I wanted to do....but it WAS hunting.

As far as the original point of this thread...I think everyone has to admit that there IS such a thing as canned hunts...where there is no pretext at a Fair Chase. To me, I've just got better things to spend money on than paying four-figures to go shoot some animal. In fact....the excuse I use for not getting a deer or an elk the last few eyars is because I couldn't afford to have it processed...had to get new windows for the house :(

greg

kingudaroad
July 8, 2006, 12:53 PM
You would think with all this unfair bambi killing going on around here that there would be a negative effect on population. Like the whales or the little furry sea lions or the great herds of buffalo hunted to depletion. But this is not the case.

Overpopulation is the problem here, and I would bet that most rural counties in the state have more deer per acre than the land can accommodate. Ranchers now hire biologists to do expensive helicopter surveys to tell them how many deer to shoot. It is not uncommon for a 3000 acre ranch owner to be told that he needs to kill 60 deer this season and 50 next season. Plus the parks and wildlife office will issue this rancher 60 tags and open his season up for 6 months.

Now try still hunting 60 deer in one season.:eek:

I don't think Texas has lost it's desire for fair chase. Its just a unique situation.

Art Eatman
July 8, 2006, 01:29 PM
For sure, king. From around Blanco up towrd Llano, Mason and Brady, there are many areas where there oughta be a bounty on does, year around, for a year or two. The habitat is so overloaded, the deer size is down toward Greyhound dog.

During the 1963-1964 deer season, the average buck weighed at the old Johnson Trading Post at the intersection of 2244 & 71 was around 125 pounds, with big ones at around 140 to 150. By 1980, the average was donw to around 85 pounds, with "big" bucks weighing 110.

Art

kingudaroad
July 8, 2006, 04:59 PM
As for the original post, I don't believe that high fencing a 2 or 3 thousand acre ranch constitutes a "canned hunt". At least in this state there is plenty of cover, and the wildlife can literally disapear.

Now these small, penned up buck breeding factories that are popping up around here is another can of worms entirely.

like this one I found witha simple google search...

http://www.windy-b-ranch.com/breeders.htm

TNDEERSLAYER
July 8, 2006, 11:22 PM
Hello Everybody,i Just Couldnt Pass Up This As My First Post In Here.ive Hunted Behind High Fenses(im Not Rich)and Ive Killed Behind No Fences,why ,is Simple When In Rome Do As The Romans Do ,as Long As It Legal.do You Hunt Rabbits With A Dog,do You Hunt Deer With A Dog?do You Choose To Use A Scope Or A Center Fire Rifle,these Are All Choices We Make,all So We Can Make A Clean Ethical Kill,and With So Many Road Poacher Today,you Need A Fence To Keep Them Out .i Know Where Some Of You Are Comeing From On Hunting Over Bait,in Tennessee A Food Plot Is Legal Maybe In New York Its Not,ok Fine Dont Do It,but Remember Before You Choose To Impose Your Choice On Someone Else,stop And Ask Your Self,what If There Was No Hunting At All,and Thats Where We Are Heading Right Now,and With Out The Help Of The Anti-hunters And Anti Gun Folks,we Are Doing A Pretty Darn Good Job Of Looseing This Battle Our Selfs,so Stop,think,and Join Together,one Voice Cant Be Heard ,but Many Will Be Known,thanks For The Moment.

samsmix
July 9, 2006, 02:07 AM
King,
I gotta agree on one point: Those people you looked up at the Windy-B ranch are some rotten *&^s of *!@#$es. It will never cease to amaze my how far mankind will stoop out of sheer greed. Just the ariel photo made me want to :barf:

Art Eatman
July 9, 2006, 08:50 AM
"Find a need and fill it" is pure capitalism and marketing -- just like the narcotrafficantes. What's really sad is that their customers mostly just don't know any better. Might's well go out to a hogpen and shoot the biggest one in it and holler, "Looky what I done!"

From the tone of this thread and many others over these last several years, I think the key for us here is that we strongly believe in EARNING our game critters. We think in terms of the total package of a true hunting experience, including the camraderie, the campfire, the improvements to hunt camp or the building of stands and bunches of other things. It's a quality of life thing, I think. Shooting Bambi is only part of it, not the whole deal.

Art

priv8ter
July 9, 2006, 09:23 AM
Looking at that website, I have to conceed that what kills me, is thinking of deer as livestock, vice a wild animal.

There is a guy up here in Washington on Vashon Island that raises a herd of elk. From what I understand he treats them just like cattle, having them slaughtered and selling the meat through local grocery stores and butcher shops.

It sounds like these guys in Texas provide two different services:

1. They breed big deer and use them to breed does and then sell the pregnant does and fawns to other people to improve 'your herd'. This doesn't sound too different from what folks do with cattle, so this doesn't bother me.

2. They let you come and hunt their deer on their land. They said they have 1600 acres, which isn't small, about 2.5 Square miles, but my question would be, how many deer do they have there, and just how much challenge is there in hunting a deer that has been raised in a pen and fed by people. These deer can't have had a chance to develop much guile or a fear of humans.

Once again....just not my style.

From the tone of this thread and many others over these last several years, I think the key for us here is that we strongly believe in EARNING our game critters. We think in terms of the total package of a true hunting experience, including the camraderie, the campfire, the improvements to hunt camp or the building of stands and bunches of other things. It's a quality of life thing, I think. Shooting Bambi is only part of it, not the whole deal.

+1

Although, sometimes I draw a doe tag, so what I'm really looking for is Bambi's mother.

castnblast
July 9, 2006, 03:38 PM
Art, I couldn't agree with you more. :)

kingudaroad
July 9, 2006, 07:37 PM
It's a quality of life thing, I think

From the handloaded cartridge, to concocting the perfect venison recipe. It is certainly the process that I love.

guntotin_fool
July 9, 2006, 11:13 PM
I think in real hunting the animal must be respected, like the game of baseball. You can not buy your way to the big leagues and I believe you should not be able to buy your way to big game hunting.

For all the arguements about working too hard and too long, I disagree. You have vacation. use it. I do not have vacation as I own my own business, I plan very hard to make sure that I have the time to go hunting. It is foremost family time, both kids hunt, about the only time I see my nephews anymore is at the deer shack. Same with my brother and his brother in law, The guys who have the property down river from us are from all over the country, They all take time to make it an event. Every Friday night before the opener we all go to a little Inn and have dinner together and catch up. This has been going on since before I was born, Old-timers no longer with us are remembered, young ones are introduced to the hunt. Every one is respected, even when being joshed about missing the "big one" while (pick one) sleeping, snoring, eating, taking a dump, etc.
Arrangements are made to bring venison to those not able to show up, either due to illness or age, it is family time. We have maybe 9 hunters, 3 of whom of women and are clamouring for exclusive use of the bunk house next year, the other group has 12 to 14.

I get tired of people who claim they are too busy to do the important things. For me it is an excuse, a reason to be lazy.

For the guys who complain the difference between a feeder and feedplot, The feedplot will last all year. The feeders only as long as someone thro;s corn in it. I have planted pear, apple, crab apple, northern white oak, popple, winter hardy strawberry, blueberry and high bush cranberry, We have planted thickets of spruce and white pine, All for the next generation. I hunt on land owned for 100 years. we are constantly manipulating the balance. wood gets cut for firewood and lumber, trees planted by my sister in laws great grandfather, (last year I made a cradle out of a Sugar Maple planted in 1905) for a great great great daughter of the man who planted it...

The kid in grad school NYC who had never been able to drive a car, that is fine, but before he goes all out let him spend a few falls in the finger lake region hunting white tail, he will be much more appreciative of what comes later. And more than likely he will change his whole mind set on what happens north and west of Manhattan...

I know a few people who have gone on canned hunts, two came back as anti's as they just saw it as slaughtering an animal for fun...it took me a couple of years to convince the one to just go bird hunting with us once, to let them realize what they had experienced was not hunting it was killing.

When culling needs to happen, I understand that. but call it that. I have spent many days out culling geese of golf courses. Canadian geese are smart and when they find a fenced, predator less, heavily maintained 500 acre lawn to eat they tend to stay. The problem comes when they eat so much grass loaded with all sorts of chemicals that the offspring begin to look like the banjo player from Deliverance. We shot one this spring with three legs...

FirstFreedom
July 10, 2006, 10:32 AM
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25822&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

kingudaroad
July 10, 2006, 12:24 PM
For all the arguements about working too hard and too long, I disagree.

Kind of hard to cast judgement about another mans resources unless you have walked in his shoes.

gunslinger1911ACP
July 10, 2006, 12:36 PM
I've had it with all the b*tching and moaning on this thread. You sound like a bunch of 13-year old girls.

Guys! We're all on the same team here. Regardless of whether or not you prefer canned hunts or hiking 2 miles in a foot of snow to fill your fridge or hang a 10-point on the wall, we need to remain united on one thing: Preserving our right to hunt and own firearms. The are individuals groups at work in this country who would like nothing more than to ban hunting all together and call your Remington 700 a "sniper rifle". There is also a movement to restrict hunting on public land and private land. So, count your lucky stars that you are blessed to be able to participate in your "hunt".

-gunslinger

Art Eatman
July 10, 2006, 12:59 PM
gunslinger, I doubt anybody disagrees with your closing statement. Howsomever, "canned hunt" has a specific legal meaning in Texas, particularly with respect to aged zoo animals (lions, etc.); such canned hunts are illegal. For other, legal-game, animals, it's a moral issue for us. It concerns the whole fair-chase issue that's at the heart of Texas game laws.

It seems to me that discussion of the morals and ethics of hunting is indeed worthwhile. In the larger context, it's my own belief that it's a shame that so many parents not only don't discuss morals and ethics with their kids, on all manner of subjects, they apparently don't even understand the concept.

Art

Wild Bill Bucks
July 10, 2006, 03:08 PM
Well said Art,

I've always told my children to remember when raising theirs, 'You only raise your children until about the age of 12 years old, after that, they are only a product of the way you raised them".

If you don't teach your children the ethics and morals in ALL things, including hunting, then there is no way they will ever learn them.

In todays world there are a lot of kids running around that will be tommorrows bandits, simply because they lack the morals that should have been taught to them by their folks. There's to many children raising children now-a-days.

rem33
July 10, 2006, 04:08 PM
amen Wild Bill

samsmix
July 11, 2006, 03:59 AM
I'll second you all about the raising of children. I was a child with a child myself, but I'm doing my best. She's 10 now, and already Daddy's little huntin' and fishin' partner. She's sits on pins & needles all fall waitin' for her turn to hunt. Then around Chrismas we start hunting cottontails.

If you get in my car with your action open she'll give you an ear full, too! Also, a friend of mine was going to shoot a cottontail durring the summer (it's legal) while we were fishing, and she gave him a short lecture on how it was better to leave it for seed, and how it could have babies at this time of year. Most kid that age would pull the trigger themselves. I was so proud!


Say Gunslinger1911ACP,
Just to set things straight you DO NOT have a right to hunt. This is a ploy used by the left to demonize military style guns. Or at least anything they feel like labeling "military" style. YOUR RIGHT is to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, so that the people may be granted the means to overthrow a tyranical government. Hunting, and it DEEPLY pains me to say this, is only a privlege. Privleges can be taken away. Rights cannot.

gunslinger1911ACP
July 11, 2006, 07:57 AM
Point taken.

I was unaware of the hunting of zoo animals in Texas. If that is a 'canned hunt', then I'd agree those types of hunts should not be allowed.

My reference to canned hunts was a bit different. There have been some comments on this thread and others that indicate to me, climbing in to a deer stand on a high-fence South Texas ranch at 5am and waiting for a 10-point to make his way along a sendero to a corn feeder is not hunting. I disagree.

samsmix
July 11, 2006, 08:36 AM
Corn! Oh sure, I bet that stuff is just everywhere in the desert. How could corn possibly create an artificial attractant, what with all that other high nutrient feed deserts are so famous for?

No, that's not "canned" (assuming a large area in the fence), but is it really "fair chase"? I'm gonna go with a very large NO on this.

If you really want fair chase in a High Fence, agree that noone is to set foot within 1/2 mile of the fence. NOW the animal can have an escape route.

Art Eatman
July 11, 2006, 09:04 AM
Aw, now, whoa up, samsmix. Getcha a piece of paper and a crayola. Draw a square as a representation of a high-fenced pasture. Figger it's some couple of thousand acres of rolling brush country. The brush ranges in height from four to ten feet. The shorter stuff is on the hilltops; it's thick and taller down in the draws. Walking around, visibility ranges from ten feet to maybe an occasional two hundred yards.

You're the only hunter inside this pasture.

What difference does it make to a deer WHERE you are? One jump and he's outta sight, whether you're in the Great Big Middle or somewhere along the fence. It's not wide-open grasslands.

Lemme say this: The "feeder thing" has been beaten to death, here. It's purely opinion, one group feeling one way, another group feeling another. I bet that there are more feeder-hunters than there are people in the whole state of Montana, when you figure Texas, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, etc., etc. You wouldn't otherwise see all those feeder-ads and stand-ads in all the hunting magazines. It's "different strokes for different folks".

And nobody is forcing anybody to hunt over a feeder. Those of us who'd rather not hunt that way, like you and me and others here, don't have to.

:), Art

BlueTrain
July 11, 2006, 09:23 AM
I have only been hunting a few time and do not now because of the next-to-impossible difficulty of doing so. I do know several enthusiastic hunters, including family members, but do you think any of them would invite me to go along with them? But that's a different issue.

I think it should be called hunting only if that is what it is. If it isn't, then call it something else. I never heard the expression canned hunt. Guided hunt, yes, and that's what a lot are. A safari is a glorified (and expensive) guided hunt and the only way you can go in most of Africa these days. In Europe they use the terms stalking and also shooting. Shooting especially implies that nothing more than shooting is involved and that is just about the size of it. Stalking involves a little more and no more than a couple of people are involved.

Maybe we should complain about the unfair advantage people have who use optical sights on their rifles.

rem33
July 11, 2006, 10:03 AM
If the animal is fenced in he is there and you know he is. To me it makes a difference. I know that it might not be easy to find him but he isn't leaving, isn't the same at least not to me, but then I have never hunted anywhere but the western US where there are millions of acres of Natl. forest, BLM, or State land we can hunt on. I have been reading this thread and to me sitting on bait is like fishing, ain't the same, hunting inside a fence is not hunting it's shooting or killing. I shouldn't judge cause I haven't been there done that, or lived whewre you had too and hopefully I never will. I guess it's OK for those that do but something about it doesn't seem right to me.

Jack O'Conner
July 11, 2006, 10:24 AM
High fence operations in Africa are really taking off. Keeps the predators out and the trophies in. Yet no one talks about canned hunts in South Africa.

Its my impression that many Easterners somehow feel guilty about killing wildlife.
This is likely a result of many decades of short seasons and foolish laws restricting semi-autos and modern muzzle-loaders from their forests.
Jack

Art Eatman
July 11, 2006, 02:00 PM
rem33, how many acres do you hunt, on any one given day? Walking around, that is, not from any vehicle or horse. Just curious...

One thing about a whitetail: If the food and water is ample, he or she is gonna basically stay within a half-mile to a mile of "home". I know lots of low-fence pastures where anybody who's spent any amount of time around the area will know roughly where to look for a particular buck.

To repeat: The high fences are to keep other deer OUT, not the resident deer in. It is the way the landowner controls the population so it doesn't grow beyond the carrying capacity of the land. And, typically, such a pasture is quite a bit larger than a guy can hunt over in a day--fencing ain't cheap.

Art

rem33
July 11, 2006, 02:43 PM
Well we hunt very large areas, dozens to hundreds of square miles. I said in another post I have a very damaged ankle, and wear a support or good boots always ( Egad now the excuses) Shattered 25 years ago and it never lets me forget it. All day or long hikes, long distances dragging game will without fail cause me to take pain meds which i hate to do. I hunt with my dad who is in his 80's. We have developed a way that is as fair a hunt as we can without still hunting which we have done and still do on occasion but neither of us care a lot for.
I carry good binoculars and a good spotting scope, We get high and glass vast ares of sage brush for the most part, looking for several minutes to hours then try and stalk what we find, if we find. We can be careful that way and not kill something in a place that too difficult to get out. I carry over 500 feet of rope and have a good winch.
For the most part walking is not a good way to hunt in my opinion, but can work ok if your slow and quiet, the game is going to hear or smell you coming but i have filled my tags that way numerous times.
One might say the way we hunt is not hunting in the pure since and maybe they would be right, so who am i to judge.
I can fill my deer tag every morning if I want to go to a ranch I can hunt at day break and wait for the deer to head back to the hills. They cross every morning without fail. Is that hunting? Well some might say so ,but I would call it filling your tag and not really hunting. I confess I have done that too.

I think I was wrong to judge anyone, I haven;t been in others shoes, or hunted where you or others do, or delt with the conditions you have to deal with, but it does sound strange to me hunting inside a fenced area where you know for a fact the animal is there, or over bait. I have shot coyotes over a gut pile the next morning, and those alfalfa fed deer sure taste good, so I have too I guess.
Gunslinger is right we have enough trouble without fussing amonst ourselves.

Art Eatman
July 11, 2006, 08:01 PM
:) No biggie.

I pretty much learned from my father: Walk toward where Ol' Bucky beds down, kick him out of bed, and if his horns stick out much past his ears, shoot him. It makes for a lot of exercise and sometimes a long day when Ol' Bucky ain't home.

We've done quite a number of hunts where four or five of us would get on line and sweep a valley. Of course, the guys in the bottom generally won't see much; the upwind guy on the hillside will most likely get any shot. The fun comes in when a little piddly-diddly forkhorn jumps out and folks start hollering, "Shoot him! Shoot him!" If some sucker bites, and shoots the buck, next heard is, "Awww...What'd you shoot that little ol' thing for? He ain't hardly worth taggin', and he's too big for camp meat." :D

I've always thought sneaky-snaking was the most fun. Just ease along slow, stopping from time to time to just sit and watch. Wet weather is good, since there's no noise from dead leaves and grass. I got close enough to a fat little 8-pointer one time to hit him in the rump with a small rock from about ten feet. "Counting coup," I guess you could call it; he was fat as butter but not really big enough to shoot. Young and dumb, but I educated him about people. :D

Hey, it's all fun.

Art

samsmix
July 12, 2006, 03:41 AM
Okay, so we are trying to keep other deer out? One of the Great Lakes states had a problem with over population, so you know what they did? They made it so that you were not elegable to shoot a buck 'till you did your part and shot a doe. Of course I do understand that southern does could have a fawn at any time of year, so that might complicate things, but the idea has merit.

I also knew I was going overboard by suggesting noone go within 1/2 mile of the fence. The idea was more to make folks think about it a bit.

samsmix
July 12, 2006, 04:16 AM
ART,
Now that sounds like huntin'! Say, would a "OO" loaded shotgun help the guys in the bottom any? Would it be allowed there? My own father is 86, and while he is a crack rifle shot, just can't plow brush anymore. We walk narrower strips of cover with him in the clear and me bird-dogging the thick stuff. I use a shotgun for this, and it works great. We have bagged quite a few with this tandem rig. Just keep your shots to 25yds or less as buckshot is a HORRIFIC crippler beyond that distance. "3in 15-pellet loads have more authority than the old 9-pellet, but both work. You need 4-5 pellets for a quick kill. The piece of meat each pellet tears up is no bigger than your thumb.

Just so ya know, I do respect your opinion, even if I just can't square with it. If you ever make it up this way though, I'll show ya some "Right Purdy" country to hunt in.

Art Eatman
July 12, 2006, 10:55 AM
High fences came about long before all this big-buck-breeding garbage. The deal is that it's not just, "Give me all your money and come shoot a monster buck!"

First you hook up with Mr. Banker for some 10K or 20K acres, plus Oh-My-God dollars per foot for high fencing around it.

Pastures are improved from re-seeding with native grasses, herbs and forbs. Remember, a lot of this land was once overgrazed or farmed. Water supplies are improved via wells and stock tanks. That's bulldozed dirt tanks as well as any small sheep/goat-sized water troughs. Phreatophytes such as cedar and mesquite are reduced in quantity, if not eradicated; this allows creeks to once again flow as in the distant past. Mesquite got replanted northward as those oh-so-romantic trail herds headed toward Kansas, and when the Indians quit setting range fires. Cedar, like greasewood and sage brush, is a replacement growth from overgrazing.

Okay: Now you have a place that's a deer's smorgasbord. If you don't have high fences, guess who comes to dinner? Yup. All the deer from the surrounding ranches where improvements haven't been done.

Next you get into the management thing. You shoot a certain number of does. You shoot "garbage" bucks: Mature spikes, or scraggle-horned bucks. You don't shoot six- and eight-point bucks, but only the fully mature critters. After some years of paying priincipal, interest and taxes, you wind up with deer on your place that look like what your grandfather talked about--if and only if you can keep the other deer off your land.

The feds don't do any of that on "our" public lands. WYSIWYG.

So there's a short course in land management and restoration. Or you can say, "To Hell with it!" and have a bunch of low-fence, rocky, over-goated junk land where coyotes and buzzards carry rations to get through or over. IMO, once you're west of Sonora, Texas, on I-10, you're looking at a bunch of "ruint" country, all the way to Phoenix, Aridzony. Or US 90 from Castroville to Van Horn, except for some of the grasslands around Marathon, Alpine and Marfa.

:), Art

rem33
July 12, 2006, 12:09 PM
Art

e-gad,,, now that you Really explain it I feel even worse for blastin you, I had no idea about all that, I would hunt that in a NY minute, and by my age otta know better than to run my mouth,, DUH,,,,,

Art Eatman
July 12, 2006, 06:51 PM
Ehhh, no problem. I'm just lucky in that I've probably read more about how other folks do what they do than most folks have. And I've wandered around Texas a lot more than most. I've never done any big-deal hunting, but I've done a whole bunch of piddling little wanderings through all manner of jungly stuff and open country and in heavy brush...

If you pay attention, some, you learn a little. :)

Art

riverrat66
July 13, 2006, 12:44 AM
Whitetail hunting to me means, pre-season scouting to see where the deer are bedded down, where they are feeding and what trails they are using to get back and forth to those areas and where their rubs and scrapes are. Then we usually wait for them to move from one area to the other. Years ago I would walk many miles in search of the ever elusive whitetail and have actually walked up on a whitetail bedded down in a snow storm but my body is no longer able to do that. In fact, I gave up hunting for 10 years until I purchased my own land and made it accessible for myself. I hunt in a shotgun w/slug only area and the average shot distance is 45 yards!

There's no comfy little shack to sit in while waiting for the bucks to come and feed over the food plot (food plots are illegal) and one needs a special permit to shoot a doe.

I've seen those TV programs where some guy brings his 10 year old to some ranch in Texas and they sit in some shack until some gigantic buck walks out into the food plot some 200 yards away and the kid shoots the deer. Then they take some pictures and Dad says how proud he is of his son and someone else guts the thing and drags it away for them. Sorry but I do not consider that hunting because that buck has probably been showing up at that food plot for the last three weeks. That's like shooting fish in a barrel.

In New York State baiting deer is illegal, even feeding deer during the non-hunting season is illegal because of Chronic Wasting Disease. http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dfwmr/wildlife/deer/feedregs.html

I hunt in the norther lower peninsula of Michigan, I have hunted the same area with my father and brother for the last four years. We hunt for three weeks of bow season and have yet to get even a doe, and we use bait! (its legal).
I know people that sit in blinds that have bait piles that are always there and they don't always get their deer.
Then I come on here and some guy from New York or Wisconsin that hunts in a corn field with a high powered rifle states that the way I hunt is cheap and unfair!
I use bait because I don't have 1000 acres of corn fields to "hunt" in. At best I can see 50 yards, without a bait pile to keep the deer busy I may not even see ONE deer (and a doe at that) for the whole season.
Csspecs,
Bowhunting is the most difficult way to harvest a whitetail deer. Maybe you need to change your methods. Are you hunting from a treestand? I hunt on less then 100 acres on heavily wooded land and see many deer every year. I don't hunt cornfields with a high powered rifle either. I've killed deer with a shotgun from 75 yards to six feet away! I don't kill a deer every season because I don't hunt strictly for the meat because I've taken many deer in my lifetime and now I just hunt for large trophy animals.

riverrat66...out

Wild Bill Bucks
July 13, 2006, 11:44 AM
I bow hunt on a little 20 acre plot in Southeastern Oklahoma, with a small creek running through the middle. There are always deer moving along the creek, but they are ALWAYS moving. I use a corn pile just to slow them up for a good solid shot, so I really don't see it as BAITING.

I keep feeders up all year on the property, just to keep deer in the area, but I don't hunt any of them. I set up away from them, so my hunting doesn't effect the deer that come to the feeders regularly. My wife says the feeders are OFF LIMITS, as she likes to watch them as they feed.:D

davlandrum
July 13, 2006, 05:30 PM
While doing 20 years in the Army, I got to hunt a lot of states with very different regulations. A lot of our personal feelings about how to hunt are tied very deeply to how we were taught to hunt. People who have been raised around stand hunting over feed stations (baiting) don't perceive it as negative. I hunted this way on a small Army facility outside San Antonio. The rule was, to hold your place (the map was divided up), you had to keep food coming all year. Bowhunting only. If you wanted to get a higher choice on spot location, you could come in and work on the guzzlers or other projects. I thought it would be a slam-dunk way to hunt, but got shut out there 2 years running. I still shudder to think about how much I spent on feed corn and labor.

I got to hunt upstate NY (Ft. Drum area), my first state where I could hunt multiple seasons. I grew up in Oregon, so just assumed that you could only chose 1 season per species everywhere. Had to learn blackpowder in a hurry.

Hunted Maryland, where the bag limits just blew my mind. Started supporting Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry while there.

Along the way, I learned a certain level of respect for someone who can sit in a stand all day in the freezing rain. Coldest I have ever been in my life! I am just lousy at sitting still, 12 feet in the air, and waiting.

There are certain issues that bother me personally, and I support efforts and organizations that try to shape the game regs. But the regs and an individual's choices are the final say. If it is legal, but I chose not to, that is a personal choice. I have heard too many traditional archers disparage compound shooters (I shoot a compound now after a long stretch of recurve shooting) to do the same to people that are hunting legally, just different than I do.

I know that personally, I would get no satisfaction from a canned, high-fence hunt, and would not be excited to see someone's trophy bull taken in such an operation. But hunting is a very personal thing. Maybe someday I will have a big bull on the wall and maybe I won't. If I do, I will know that it came from hard work and long miles and a lot of time in nature, with a little skill, luck, and divine intervention thrown in the mix.

Hunting season is coming, can't wait!!

shureshot0471
July 25, 2006, 04:53 PM
I am too lazy to take time to sit and read all of the posts, but I would like to see anyone on this fourm take out and go stalk a Deer in the south Texas terrian. Sitting at a stand in south texas or in any state is just fine. Most ranches that this is done are greater than 5,000 acers there is no way that a deer will even ever see all that proptery, Hunting fact in Texas a whitetail ussaly will not move out of a 1/2 mile area of where it was born. Other fact whitetail deer in other states will not ussaly move out of an 3 mile area of where it was born. Well guys 5,000 acers is way more than 3 square miles. It is fair chase. :D :D :D

Jack O'Conner
July 25, 2006, 05:59 PM
Gunslinger:

Many animals have been saved from extinction by hunters. Texas ranchers and others have paid big dollars to export rare and exotic animals from dwindling populations. Pere David's deer, Eld's deer, addax, symitar horned oryx, and many others have been "saved" from eradication in their 3rd World native lands.

Are hunts for these animals canned? I for one do not care to know about it.

But I'm very pleased that these animals are born wild on large ranches instead of small zoo cages.

I agree that unification is the way to go.

Jack

Anthony Terry
July 26, 2006, 02:21 AM
high fence=novice hunter
fair chase or dont enter the woods:cool:

samsmix
July 26, 2006, 04:21 AM
Scathing, VA, scathing. Even by my standards.


At days end, I'll second unification since I don't HAVE to step inside the fence.

Anthony Terry
July 26, 2006, 10:34 AM
it was rather, to the point , huh? i was sleepy.:D

gunslinger1911ACP
July 26, 2006, 10:59 AM
VA Freak - You say fair chase or don't enter the woods? And high fence = novice hunter? You have obviously never visited South Texas.

http://www.loscuernos.com/2005%202006%20Adult%20Categories.htm

Jack - I agree with your comments. I'm all for hunting exotics. I haven't yet, but would like to. I am well aware of the exotics on big ranches and am supportive of them.

Anthony Terry
July 26, 2006, 11:09 AM
i have never entered texas, but i dont want to hunt deer in herds and just pick which one i want, like shopping. same for any other animal. GOD doesnt want it done that way. i will always hunt fair chase type hunting, some people dont see it that way but i cant see what the thrill is of hunting herds of semi-tame animals from a heated building would be. alot of texas hunting is on 20,000 acre ranches. those are free roaming deer. im talking about the 500-1000 acre ranches with 10ft fences and herds of deer and elk like cattle. its just dont fair to the animal and i look at it as no better than poaching...

kingudaroad
July 26, 2006, 11:25 AM
im talking about the 500-1000 acre ranches with 10ft fences and herds of deer and elk like cattle.

I hunt south Texas every year and have never seen anything like you describe.

Oh yeah, you've never actually been here. You must have read about it in a magazine.

And as far as tame animals running around the South Texas brush country:D :D :D :D ROFLMAO.

Anthony Terry
July 26, 2006, 11:38 AM
well theres high fence, pay out the butt, hunting ranches everywhere. where you pay 5grand for a 400 class elk and its no kill no pay. thats the places im talking about. youre missing my point guy. im not talking about the wild areas, im talking about the "pay a fortune to hunt tame animal spots, these places are all over texas and everywhere else in the west. if youre hunting the wild areas where theres no high fences, then youre cool with me and im not even referring to you and you are jumping the gun on me. if you do hunt high fence, then i am talking to you and you need to try real hunting.

FirstFreedom
July 26, 2006, 01:45 PM
You're gonna get hazed some more on this one, bigtime man, and deservedly so, because you're missing the point.

On the one hand, you say high fence necessarily = novice hunter/not a real hunter.

On the other hand, you say "no, don't misunderstand me; what I'm talking about is canned hunts on 500-1000 acres, where it's like shopping."

Problem is, those two things are not one and the same. Many many high fence areas are HUGE areas where there's no guarantee of success and it IS fair chase, for all intents and purposes, because the area enclosed is much larger than the animals' natural free range anyway, and they have plenty of cover to hide in and elude the hunter.

So you're mistaken when you say high fence = not a hunter. You'll be wanting to retract that. Because it ain't so. Now, you MIGHT fairly say something like "high fence, less than 1,000 acres, animals fed all their food, and no trees for them to hide in" = not a hunter. But as it stands, your statement is way too broad. You should go back and re-read all of Art Eatman's posts in this very thread, and it will explain things to you better.

rem33
July 26, 2006, 06:02 PM
(quote) I'm talking about the "pay a fortune to hunt tame animal spots, these places are all over texas and everywhere else in the west.

Huh?
News to me and I have lived in the western states over 50 years now, hunted in a few, and have traveled through most of them extensively.

But then I bet they are embarrassed and hide them kinda places mostly.

Anthony Terry
July 26, 2006, 10:51 PM
let me try to fix my half asleep writings of last night.
my definition of fair chase would be: hunting a wild animal that has a 100% chance of getaway if spooked. whether its from a stand, stalking, blind, over a food plot, over a feeder.
BS fake hunting is IMO: hunting a canned in area, where the deer can be ran into you, cant escape, these guaranteed kill areas. where the deer are like cattle and you just pick and shoot.
it may be right for another, but not for me. i hunt national forest here in Va. and usually do ok, considering the massive hunting pressure. also some private land, with 5ft fences:D
i may have misworded it a little bit, but i hope you guys see my point now. and if youre ever hunting in Va or tenn. look me up. we'll go after one!:D theyre pretty hard to get here, as im sure they are in the west too. different hunting, but same motive.

samsmix
July 27, 2006, 04:30 AM
...I'm going to go with VA on this one. If an animal hits a fence where I hunt it's up and over (or down & under) and he keeps right on going. When an animal hits a high fence he's got 2 choices: Left or right. Kinda narrows it down, huh:rolleyes:

Rem33,
I think you are spot on about these places staying hidden. Can you imagine the outrage we would all feel if they came out & said "We got tame Elk goin' 400 B&C, and you can shoot one this week only for just $999.95" on a billboard? No, instead these people are free to browse the errornet looking for a "hunt" that ballances a 100% kill rate against their own tollerance for greed, deceipt, lust, glory, etc. Kind of like internet ****, really. Except that in the end a majestic animal that should not have been fenced in gets to get killed! Now they are free to go back to the office and spin what lies they like about their "hunting trip", and all without the inconveinience of actually having to learn fieldcraft or get their hands bloody.:mad:

gunslinger1911ACP
July 27, 2006, 08:02 AM
My last comment on this subject -

I had posted this link last fall, and since deer season is not too far off, I figure this should provide y'all with some inspiration from a South Texas white tail hunt.

http://proszak.sasktelwebsite.net/MarrsBowman.jpg

http://www.mcleanbowmanranch.com/ranch.asp

FirstFreedom
July 27, 2006, 08:34 AM
Ahhh, the perfect woman (provided she has no vocal cords).

shureshot0471
July 27, 2006, 06:31 PM
Ok va-gunwhatever hunting in Texas either in High Fence or low fence it doesnt matter deer are so thick here you are gona see butt loads. I can bet you that most everybody on this fourm would much rather see 20 deer in a day then 2 deer. Also hunting in a high fence in Texas you are ussally hunting on a Ranch that is well over 5,000 acers I would like to see you in one day walk from fence to fence on that. You would never make it the Brush Country would eat you alive. I challenge you to come to Texas to hunt I'll bet that before you leave you will have another hunt booked, It is the best hunting in North America for Whitetail thats cause thats what we Eat,Sleep and Breath down here. We know how to grow the best.:D :D :D

kingudaroad
July 27, 2006, 07:18 PM
Make sure to bring a good set of needlenose pliers for the cactus thorns, and maybe a handgun with snakeshot.

I don't think the rattlers hibernate down there.

FrontSight
July 27, 2006, 10:13 PM
OMG she's hot :D :) :D

shureshot0471
July 27, 2006, 10:59 PM
And like everybody says the GIRLS are just hotter in TEXAS:D :D :D

Anthony Terry
July 27, 2006, 11:06 PM
texas hunting is something i want to do bad. only hunting here is woods hunting. i want to ride the senderos and fight the thickets too:D lets go huntin dude. ill show you a world that you dont know about also.youd like a Va. hunt as much as id like the texas id bet. something different always makes for a great time! it would be a great deal for the both of us. theres good deer around hereif you know where to look. . no one manages or anything like that here or thered be more and better deer but i know where the big boys hide though!:D id love to hunt texas, for deer and antelope. i want elk too. i have 2 blak bears and a few deer worthy of the wall. though i never mounted them, only saved the horns. i want a real bruiser to make the wall, ya know. 150 or better. my best couple may make 120in. and both bear were about 300lbs. the last bear i got was in 1998. biggest deer ive got here is a 19 1/2 in 8 pointer. i have a few good deer. i might get some shots of the horns to let you guys check em out.

shureshot0471
July 28, 2006, 12:37 AM
Well thats whats good about Texas now my lease is in the hard woods of east Texas. I have been lucky enough though in my 20 years to get to hunt and experince most all Texas has to offer. If I wind up getting time off from work this year of guiding mabey we can get toghter and do some hunting.:D :D :D

samsmix
July 28, 2006, 02:26 AM
Gunslinger1911
I can shoot Whitetails like that here in MT, but it looks like the white, tail hunting in Tex@$$ is first rate!

Anthony Terry
July 28, 2006, 03:04 AM
ive done packed half of my belongings and told my mama bye! im moving to Texas!:D i wish there was work for guiding around here. id love to get paid to take people hunting. i know its alot of work but when work is your passion, its not really work. i hunt everyday od the season here and put in months of scouting prior and after season. i find early spring as good of a scouting time as early fall...for the next season, of course:D id drop everything to go on a hunt out west though. it seems i got the short end of the stick being put where im at. i try to make the most of it though. Va. has a little to offer if you can go deeper into thier home than anyone else does. its basically the man who wants it the most will have the best chance here. so i try hard:)

Anthony Terry
July 28, 2006, 03:10 AM
also, when does rut fall in where you guys hunt? it kicks in around mid nov. here. though its rather mild due to the awful buck/doe ratio and high hunting pressure.

samsmix
July 28, 2006, 03:22 AM
Early to mid Nov here as well, but all the rut means here is a change of tactics. I frequently have my buck by then, but the rut shore 'nuff makes 'em stupid, don't it?

Hmmm...Like when I was a teenager!

Anthony Terry
July 28, 2006, 01:29 PM
yea, if i can find a good area to set up in the rut, its the best chance to kill a monster here. though im hard-pressed to find an area where is rut is strong.

Art Eatman
July 29, 2006, 11:20 PM
Anthony Terry, I'll repeat that it's my belief that these small-pasture, high-fence "hunting ranches" are most likely less than 1% of huntable lands in Texas. Heck, probably a lot less. I know of none in Brewster County, which is four million acres. Heck, the west pasture of the 02 Ranch has 28 miles of highway frontage; it's some fifteen miles deep--and low fenced.

Can you work the Google mapping programming? Look up "Terlingua", and then drag the country some fifteen miles to the north of it into view. That's my playground country. "Solitario"; "Lefthand Shutup", and "Agua Fria Mountain". If you're up for ten to fifteen miles a day of hunting walking, you might find a buck. If you know where to look...

:), Art

Anthony Terry
July 29, 2006, 11:26 PM
id like to try some texas hunting one day Art. i usually walk anywhere from 200yds to 5miles each day in these mountains. id love to try a stalk type hunt. anything different would be awesome. lets go huntin man!:D ill bring the women!

shureshot0471
July 30, 2006, 11:04 PM
Buddy stalking deer in Texas nope not gona happen in most cases. The people that do it have been hunting the land for years. Art has talked about this propetry before and sounds if he knows it well. Another reason is due to the fact of the brush you are hunting in is probaly gone be shorter than you or to thick to walk. Texas hunting is much more had than most people think it is not just walk up to a stand see feeder go off and deer run up, its just not tyhat simple especaily where I am in east Texas.:D :D :D

Anthony Terry
July 31, 2006, 01:00 AM
im always down for something new. east hunting would be, climbing steep mountains and across ridges. straight down other mountains. across rocks and creeks. into the deep woods. i stalk hunt this countryside and have become more then efficient at it, especially considering my young age. i know if i had someone out west to hunt with that knows the place that i could fight the thicket with the best of them. eastern hunting isnt the joyride that some westerners think it is. its -degree numbers where i hunt in late blackpowder season.
im very interested in hunting texas, but i dont wanna go in blind. it would be like one of you guys coming over here to hunt. each of us could learn alot from each other. ill take all the learning i can get. im going to try to get into texas in a year or 2. i will be needing all the help i can get when i come because i dont wanna hunt private ranches. id rather hunt state property and national land, or whatever its called down there. i dont have 5k to spend, just want to buy a nonres. and find someone to hunt with.
i see exactly what youre saying art. texas is so big theres probably places never seen by man. if you need a hunting buddy sometime gimme a yell though. like i said, ill bring the women!:D