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hsim
June 27, 2006, 06:39 AM
Heres a little test. There has been a lot of discussion on another thread about the 21 ft rule.

This exercise was shown to me by my instructor some 10 years ago.

You need a friend to help out, any physical condition, just your average Joe/Jane.

Now, find somewhere where you have some room. Standing back to back with your friend. Have his/her right heel, touching your left heel and have them place their right hand on your left shoulder. You are standing relaxed, hands at you side.

Now, before you start, clear you weapon and holster. When they are ready, have them run as fast as possible away from you. (try to have them do this without giggling like a little girl, it's very distracting:p ) Now the second you feel their hand leave your should, you draw and fire (empty gun of cause). You can even draw and fire 'cowboy' style, i.e. close retention. As soon as your partner hears the snap, stop, and I do mean stop (I'll come back to this in a second). Now measure from your back heel to your partner's back heel. What is that distance?

If it's 21 ft or greater, you've just been cut multiple times, possible before you've had a chance to draw.

Now repeat the above exercise, but this time from low ready, two hand hold. Raise the gun to eye level (to simulate aimed fire) the instant you feel their hand leave your shoulder, and double tap, now, what's the results? I bet you'd be surprised.

The reason I have them stop 'dead in their tracks' is to illustrate best case scenario. In real life bullets, no matter the caliber, will stop someone dead in their tracks. In all likely hood their kinetic energy will carry them forward another 6-12 ft before they realize they've been shot. This is still enough to cut you badly.

Double Naught Spy
June 27, 2006, 07:54 AM
Wow, your friend took a simple drill and then made it hugely difficult. A running person can't just stop once s/he hears the click of the hammer fall. I that person can, they aren't moving very fast.

Try this. Start 21 feet apart and have your friend charge you. He is carrying a rubber knife or something fairly safe like a piece of cardboard shaped like a knife. You have either an airsoft gun or Red Gun. Have him charge you. You draw either from a concealed holster (real life concealed carry) or a retention holster (police version). You can either stand still (generally stupid, but could be necessary or only option) or move/retreat. Both are possible scenarios options. When the charge starts, you draw.

We found that with moving/retreating, the person with the gun often managed to get off a shot or multiple shots, although that did not mean he didn't get cut. A lot of the shots were at very close range and even a shot up bad guy, moving forward solely on momentum but alive, could still stab or slash. The knife needed to be repaired (cardboard) several times because of it being used to stab and slash). If the person with the gun is retreating, the best option for the person with the knife, if choosing to pursue the attack, is a slash motion since the success rate for stabbing goes way down as the intended stabbee moves out of stabable position but is still within the wide arc of slashing.

Standing still, the person with the knife has a much better chance of winning outright or with shots to the legs.

Note that simple mistakes on the part of the gun person do matter, such as getting fouled in the concealment garment during the draw, not reacting soon enough to the threat, etc. And then, there is actually hitting the target. Even good shooters can miss when attempting to fire from a retention position, even at a target closing on them.

hsim
June 27, 2006, 10:27 AM
Wow, your friend took a simple drill and then made it hugely difficult.

I am sorry DNS, but other then the use of propers, I really don't see how the two experiments are wildly different.

A running person can't just stop once s/he hears the click of the hammer fall. I that person can, they aren't moving very fast.

The reason I have them stop 'dead in their tracks' is to illustrate best case scenario. In real life bullets, no matter the caliber, will stop someone dead in their tracks. In all likely hood their kinetic energy will carry them forward another 6-12 ft before they realize they've been shot. This is still enough to cut you badly.

I though I had convey that point, forgive me if I didn't explain myself correctly.

Everyone has a different way of conveying the same message, and if I am not mistaken, we are both trying to convey that message.

Unless you take some other action, other then simply draw and firing at someone from 21ft, you will get hurt. Even if you do take other actions, it is in all likely hood that they will still get to you.

Since I am simply a student and not a master, I was only conveying what I had been taught. As always, there are some good masters and others not so, we only learn from sources available to us at the time.

Yours Respectfully

dctag
June 27, 2006, 11:40 AM
If you want to get good at the Tueller drill you should do a lot of dry firing. If you work at it you should be able to consistently hit it below 1.5 seconds. From a non concealed gun you should be hitting in the low 1's or sub 1-second. From concealment 1.5 is a good goal to work towards.

-David

Skyguy
June 27, 2006, 12:31 PM
Couldn't help but respond to this one. :))

We use the 21ft-30ft drill as an example of how 9 out of 10 times the knife guy will get to the gun guy. If nothing else there'll be mutual wounding or mutual death.

I'm fairly well accomplished at HTH and in a real or surprise 5ft to 21ft knife situation....50/50 is about it.
Your best bet is avoidance by running, dodging, whatever. Don't just stand there!

Problem is that many uninitiated 'instructors' fail to convey the fact that most 'motivated' people don't drop in their tracks when shot even multiple times with a handgun.
.

Shaun
June 27, 2006, 02:48 PM
not 21 feet but a good demo....
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1459052511793821456&q=gun+knife

riverkeeper
June 27, 2006, 04:01 PM
Please comment on this.

One of the responses we practice related to Tueller is to suddenly at the last split second Jump to your stong side to gain 1-2 seconds as the attacker goes by and has to turn back to continue the attack slower less forcefully. Like a quarterback stepping up or out to duck the rush.

Strong side to protect the weapon arm and to keep it further away during subsequent attacks.

stephen426
June 27, 2006, 04:20 PM
I think that video is a good example of why it is important to balance firearm training with some martial arts/hand to hand training. If someone rushed me like that, I think my immediate reaction would be to deliver a nice swift side kick to his chest. While I might get my leg cut up, it is still better than getting my throat slashed while drawing my weapon. If I land a good shot, that will give me plenty of time to grab my weapon and end the situation. Hopefully those years of TKD lessons haven't escaped my grey matter. While going unanarmed against a knife wielding attacker is not an ideal situation, I think the video proves that there is no time to draw and fire a weapon if the attacker is close to you.

One other thing to consider is that the people in that video knew an attack was going to take place. While I hope most of use will have good situational awareness, we can get that "this can't really be happening" reaction which will slow us down even more. Besides, most of us carry concealed and drawing from concealed is slower than from a open holster. Oh well, I hope this never happens to any of us here.

kymasabe
June 27, 2006, 04:45 PM
The idea of drawing and dry-firing at my friend...even after clearing and checking and reclearing and rechecking and triple clearing and triple checking my weapon still sounds like a bad idea.

Tim Burke
June 27, 2006, 06:07 PM
It is. Do it with a red gun or an airsoft with appropriate safety gear.

hsim
June 27, 2006, 08:48 PM
The idea of drawing and dry-firing at my friend...even after clearing and checking and reclearing and rechecking and triple clearing and triple checking my weapon still sounds like a bad idea.

I suggest you read the original post again.

Standing back to back with your friend

kraven
June 28, 2006, 07:45 AM
If someone rushed me like that, I think my immediate reaction would be to deliver a nice swift side kick to his chest. While I might get my leg cut up, it is still better than getting my throat slashed while drawing my weapon. If I land a good shot, that will give me plenty of time to grab my weapon and end the situation.

A side kick will expose your femoral arteries and such to an attacker. You could bleed to death quickly as a result of a knife wound to your leg. Not to mention that your opponent doesn't have to be a knife only guy and could use that leg to trap or pin you.
engaging a knife weiling attacker with your limbs isn't the best way to buy yourself some time to draw and shoot.
Moving laterally or backwards seems like a better strategy.

dfaugh
June 28, 2006, 08:43 AM
If someone rushed me like that, I think my immediate reaction would be to deliver a nice swift side kick to his chest. While I might get my leg cut up, it is still better than getting my throat slashed while drawing my weapon. If I land a good shot, that will give me plenty of time to grab my weapon and end the situation.

Actually the way(s) I was taught (I studied Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido and Bando), If some one is "rushing me", there's a variety of effective moves. But, I would probably (as he gets in close) go into a crouching position (called different things in different disciplines), and "sweep" his legs. It very hard for someone to fight, or effectively use a knife, when their lying on the ground (Obviously, though, the next step is to disarm them, or land a disabling blow).

As someone mentioned, it makes a difference whether the "victim" knows the attack is coming. If its unexpected, there'll be another split second lag in reaction time.

Another "drill" that my Karate instructor used to use, and I've demonstarted over the years.... I have someone hold a butter knife (but I don't care if its a "real" knife, or a "gun", TOUCHING my throat, with my hands up. I TELL THEM that as soon as I move, to "poke me" with the knife, or pull the trigger.
I then start talking, reminding them to "go" as soon as I move. In the middle of a sentence, I sweep the weapon away, and move TOWARDS them, getting inside their arms, and take their legs out from under. If it were real I would follow up with a disabling punch. (I usually use a butter knife, as it usually ends up flying across the room--does less damage that way!). No one has ever "gotten" me yet.
The lesson here is, KEEP YOUR DISTANCE FROM ANY ASSAILLANT. IF you're close, there is NOTHING you can do, you'll never be able to react in time.

P.S. the first Karate instructor I had was simply amazing, blindingly fast. If you were within 21' of him, you were finished. I doubt you'd even come close to getting the gun out of the holster, befroe he took your head off. I would never have thought a human being could move that fast, if I hadn't seen it, many times, with my own eyes!

dctag
June 28, 2006, 08:57 AM
One issue this drill does not take into account is lateral / diagonal movement off the line of force by the shooter. We reinforce that during exercises with training marking rounds.

I have found very, very few who can do this at or around 21 ft.

I would love to try this out with Sims. I don't doubt Erick at all that the difficulty goes up exponentially when the guy is running right at you. I can do it all day on the range but the range is obviously not always reality.

-David

Jeff #111
June 28, 2006, 09:35 AM
And there is the problem for cops. We're almost always within a couple of feet of people. It's the nature of the job. Sometimes we are within inches. I'm well aware of the 21 foot rule. Whne I was a trainee (many years ago) I was shown the classic video "Suriving Edged Weapon Attacks" from Caliber Press. It was somewhat cheesy, but it got the point across (no pun intended). Over the years the 21 foot rule has become almost dogmatic in law enforcement.

New research is now indicating that perhaps it's time for some changes. There have been shootings involving officers and knife wielding suspects. According to the Force Science News there have been inccidents in which the suspect was within 21 feet and officers have shot them. Even though they weren't an immediate threat.

Officers have been drilled that 21 feet is the magic distance and if they're under that they are an immediate threat regardless of what they're doing. It's an unexpected development and now the "experts" are trying to figure out a new approach.

stephen426
June 28, 2006, 01:55 PM
A side kick will expose your femoral arteries and such to an attacker. You could bleed to death quickly as a result of a knife wound to your leg. Not to mention that your opponent doesn't have to be a knife only guy and could use that leg to trap or pin you.
engaging a knife weiling attacker with your limbs isn't the best way to buy yourself some time to draw and shoot.
Moving laterally or backwards seems like a better strategy.

Kraven, a side kick exposes the outer part of your leg and puts your body the furthest away from an attacker. You still might get cut, but it is better than having a knife plunged into your chest or you throat slit. The femoral arteries are closer to the inside of your leg, close to your groin area.

While you feel it might be faster to move laterally or backwards, your attacker is moving forwards. Do you think you can move sideways or backwards faster than your attacker can move forwards? Unless your attacker is a bull, he should be able to change directions very quickly. You are putting very little distance by side stepping, and you risk tripping by not looking where you are moving. Now if you see the attacker coming from a distance, you can attempt to out run him. The problem is he is already moving and you are stationary. You also have to factor in the reaction time. It might work if you have very fast reflexes and are a fast runner.

You mentioned that your attacker may also be trained in martial arts and pin your leg. In that case, he will probably also be able to adjust for your slight movement and still cut you to shreds. If that were the case, there really isn't much that can be done except hope that you see the situation before it occurs and react quickly. One thing to think about is that most civilians don't have to worry about random people coming up to them and immeditely trying to slit their throats. Most of the time, it will be an ambush type situation and the attacker will ask for money. Based upon the video and discussions, it is better to give up the money than attempt to draw and shoot when the attacker is close.

You could always draw your gun as he is walking away and shoot him when you yell at him. :eek: :D (just kidding)

Skyguy
June 28, 2006, 03:38 PM
The 21ft test is meant to show novice gunslingers that they will nearly always lose the race.

Mutual wounding or mutual death is a real expectation because most motivated, charging threats will 'not' drop in their tracks even when shot multiple times with a handgun.

Novices have to learn that 'quick draw' is a game.....and 'early draw' is a tactic.
.

M14fan
June 28, 2006, 06:27 PM
I wonder what the results would be if the attacked were wielding a walking stick. I often use one that I built myself (old crush leg injury) even though I am armed with a sidearm and am able to walk, dodge, and evade (but not run) without it. I think a rush attack would likely meet with wooden resistance first, then the sidearm.

Desertscout1
June 28, 2006, 06:56 PM
Although it is not at all difficult, with some training, to present and fire two shots in under 1.5 seconds, the key (as someone else noted) is immediately moving off the line of attack.

The way we run the drill is put a runner 21 feet from the shooter at a diagonal to the shooter's rear. At the buzzer or whistle, the runner starts running towards the shooter and the shooter begins to engage a target placed 3 yards in front of him. The goal is to get off a shot (or more) at the target before the runner taps the shooter on the shoulder as he passes behind him. This way, the the shooter is actually shooting and feels a little physical contact as the runner passes by him. It's about as realistic as any other method although NONE of them take into account reaction time.

stevelyn
June 28, 2006, 07:56 PM
We've done this with a target stand mounted on a plastic kiddie sled. Shooter and dragger start off side x side. The dragger runs on signal dragging the target sled while shooter solves the problem.

It's very seldom the shooter will solve the problem without movement off the axis of attack before the target reaches arms' length.

Lesson: Move, shoot, shoot on the move.

5whiskey
June 28, 2006, 08:20 PM
+1 with the side kick stephen. +1 for dodging the blows at the last second river.

I'm a huge advocate of incorporating martial arts with firearms for self defense. Not only is it fun and good excercise, it could save your life one day. Now, I'm not saying to everyone who is older here to go out and take Karate. There are some good, realistic combat related martial arts that focus less on high impact moves and more on common every day self defense. I'm not knocking Karate, to anyone who studies it. I'm just saying their are simpler defense systems that are designed around wearing normal clothes or carrying firearms. Some even incorporate hand to hand fighting in flak jackets with a combat load. They focus more on simpler blows for the older and less athletic.

Anyhoo, I hope ya don't think I tried to hijack the thread. It's still related (sort of). Didn't mean to get on that tangent that long.

snolden
June 28, 2006, 11:47 PM
remember, the only thing that will save you here is tactical awareness. IF you don't get any clues before this happens (suspicious face, clothing etc or visible weapon) you are screwed.

So, keep your eyes open and moving. Stay away from blindspots, walk at least a few feet away from walls, etc.

razorburn
June 29, 2006, 04:22 AM
Out of curiosity, is the shooter not allowed to run too? I'm 21, and a personal trainer. I don't know how to say this without sounding kind of arrogant, but as a result I'm very well trained and in excellent physical conditioning, and could probably outrun 95-99% of the people out there. Honestly, if someone started running at me with a knife, I'd probably wouldn't bother to draw and just run too. I can run 2 miles at a dead sprint, so I'd try to just disappear into the sunset like that guy on the bucking bronco at the end of a cowboy movie :p.

If the guy has kept up chasing me halfway across town waving a knife, I think I'd have a good enough lead time by then to be able to draw and shoot at my leisure. Assuming nobody called the cops before then. It'd be quite a spectacle if we really go for miles, the whole time running down the street chased by some loony waving a knife like a crazed housewife.

Boondoggie
June 29, 2006, 06:48 AM
if someone started running at me with a knife, I'd probably wouldn't bother to draw and just run too.

I agree with you, but sometimes this option isn't available for various reasons.

Also remember that you will be reacting to someone's actions, depending on who you are and how you've trained, you will react differently. In times of stress you revert back to training.

Model520Fan
June 29, 2006, 07:03 AM
All very interesting, and I don't doubt the post about outrunning a knife-wielder. The problem is that serious knife attacks don't start at 21 feet. They start with an unexpected pain and noticing that you're bleeding, or at least so I am told. I have nothing to say to policemen, since almost all of them know far more than I do. For the rest of us, I think we need to stay out of bad areas, keep distance, and watch hands. And remember that the answer to a knife attack is slide lock (or dry fire, in the case of a loaded revolver).

Samurai
June 29, 2006, 09:47 AM
I agree wholeheartedly with Stephen426. When your attacker has a knife, you are NOT gun-training, even if you have a gun. You're knife-training. Knife-training is about adapting empty-hand martial arts. A good side step, a good side kick, these are things that are used to defend against a knife. Guns can ensure a mutual slaying, but that's all. Guns are purely offensive weapons. (With the exception of large rifles, which point the stock can be used as a club...)

I have only two major points to add: First, you're going to get cut, and second, I'm not a TKD guy...

Point one: You're going to get cut.
I practice Iaido and Kendo, among other things (Isshin-Ruy Karate, Muso Shindo Jodo, Aikido...). So, I play with sharp things quite a bit. I will occasionally train with live swords, and for a long time, a live sword was all I had (it was cheaper than a dulled sword). I have cut myself many, many times training with blades. And, upon entering our class, my Sensei and I will stress one MAJOR point with training: If you train with blades, YOU WILL GET CUT.

How is this at all relevant to the present discussion? The point is, if you are training against a knife attacker, expect to take damage. The "21-foot test" is inherently flawed, because the test is to see if you can shoot the guy down before you take ANY damage. This is simply not going to happen in real life. If you are attacked with a knife, you WILL GET CUT. The trick is to minimize your damage taken. Stephen426 is right on, because he advocates pushing off of the attacker (with his kick). Get distance between you and them... But this brings us to...

Point two: I'm not a TKD guy...
I can swing a sword with the greatest of ease. I can also punch, arm lock, and throw with moderate competence. I can't kick worth a flip! I can barely raise my leg to knee-level, and I wouldn't try to kick the knees out of a running assailant in a time of crisis. So, am I defenseless in this situation? Of course not!

The point is not to "deliver a side kick" per se. The point is, if a knife assailant is running toward you, GET YOUR GUARD UP! Put your hand out, and try to absorb the damage in your extremities. Don't take the knife to the chest, take it to the arm or the hand! You'll live. You'll have to go to the hospital for stitches, but you'll live. You can live a long time with your arm completely severed. A penetrating stab wound to the arm is survivable... So is a stab wound to the leg, if you can raise your leg that high...

"But, Samurai," you say, "How can I draw my gun if my arm is cut up?" That's why I use the singular "hand" instead of "hands." Take the damage in your non-weapon hand. Keep your weapon hand at low ready, held in close to your body. Extend your non-weapon hand to keep the attacker at arms reach. Shoot, shoot, shoot!!!

Now, we need to apply what we've learned!
Let's do a new drill. Start with a buddy at 21 feet. Have him run at you with a rubber knife. With the weapon on your right side, spin to the left, extending your left hand to meet the attacker. At the same time, draw with your right hand and shoot your friend from the hip as many times as you can. (Snap caps, please!...)

How do we know if the drill worked? If you only take damage from the shoulder down your arm, it worked. You killed your buddy, and you took survivable damage. Now, when it works (and it will work), repeat this excercise 1,000 times. Repeat it again. Then after that, repeat it again!

Train, train, train!

5whiskey
June 29, 2006, 10:22 AM
great post Samurai

Samurai
June 29, 2006, 11:10 AM
Thank you. :D

Skyguy
June 29, 2006, 11:28 AM
Train, train, train!


Your post had some good info and advice.
But 'most' people don't - or can't - train, train, train.

People under close attack will instinctively extend their arms to fend off an attacker.
They will instinctively sidestep/move to avoid injury. No training required.

So, for the average non-training cc guy, it's best to develop accuracy, situational avoidance/awareness
.......and the 'early' draw.
.

Shaun
June 29, 2006, 02:15 PM
i disagree with the ability to take wounds then counter attack. Unless youre wearing a leather jacket, a sharp knife will cut very deep into the arm area. This will cause your body to go into shock...you have about 5-10 seconds tops...more like 3. If you get cut 2-3 times you well begin to bleed in a few seconds and your heart will race and your body will begin to fight against you. You cannot train effectively because you dont know how your body will react to large wounds. If someone has a knife, bat, stick or whatever and they bullrush you....get out of their way. Side step then run away, get yourself in the position to get your weapon out. If you get cut, and you get cut bad, you will lose. Unless you know you can stop them without being cut, and most people cant know for sure, the best bet is to run away from the attack, until you can counter. A good practice for this is with a large black marker. Take your airsoft or redgun and have your pal attack from 21 feet using the marker like a blade.......i guarantee even when you know its coming, youll get "cut." See where the cuts land....then try the same scenario, but instead of pulling your gun or attempting to pull it, evade and elude the attack. This time you will probably have less "cuts."

Samurai
June 29, 2006, 03:42 PM
Shaun and I are on the same page, I think.

The whole purpose of the "extended weak arm" drill is to place distance between your vitals and the knife. Key to this concept is getting out of the way. When you run this drill, absolutely do NOT stand still while you're fending off the attacker. MOVE! Get out of the way, side step, evade, you can even just-plain run away. The point of the extended non-weapon arm is to never allow the attacker to get within range of you to strike your body or neck. But by all means, don't just stand there and hold the guy with your left hand while he fillets your whole arm! Get away from him!

The marker suggestion is a good idea, if you don't mind getting marker ink all over yourself. A stick covered in mud is another way to do it, and the mud washes off easier. If you allow more than around two cuts to land on your arm before you've drawn and fired, then you need to practice more.

You should be able to draw and shoot the guy in a matter of seconds. You won't bleed out of your arm in that timespan. Weird sickos (like me) can even practice unbuckling your belt with your weapon hand and applying a tourniquet to your left arm, if you're really obsessed about the bleed-time factor.

In knife fighting, the name of the game is survival. You don't have to come out looking pretty. You don't even have to come out walking. But you do have to live through it. This drill will teach you one method of surviving. There are other methods, each perfectly valid. There are also many refinements to this method. (For example, are you reaching for the knife arm, or are you reaching for the non-knife shoulder? One will provide you better control over the attacker's weapon, the other will put more distance between you and the knife.)

Play with it, and have fun...

McBrideGuns
June 29, 2006, 04:17 PM
just wondering seeing how i am in a wheelchair how would this excercise work for me being that my practice partner wouldnt be standing "heel to heel" with me how would they need to stand in relation to me?

Samurai
June 29, 2006, 10:41 PM
Wow, McBrideGuns! I'm not really sure how to answer your question... Here's where we find out the sad truth that I'm not that great a martial arts instructor. My Sensei would be able to break this down for you; he usually teaches us these techniques from a sitting position as well as standing, and we all applaud him on his ability to adapt to the needs of his individual students. I am not as good as he is, so it's difficult for me to modify the technique to suit your situation.

I guess I'd need to know a little bit more about your mobility. Are you in a motorized wheelchair, or manual operation? Are you strong enough to whip your chair around in a circle really fast? How easily could you just move away from the attacker?

I have two theories: First, if you can move in a circle really fast, then do exactly what I originally suggested: Push your left hand out to keep the knife away, and shoot from the hip with your right hand. The underlying premise is exactly the same; you're keeping the knife away from your body. You'd just have to make sure to place your hand in contact with the knife hand to compensate for the inability to open up distance with footwork. This will take added dexterity, and it will be more difficult!

The other immediately foreseeable option is to fall to the floor. (Yeah, I know. It's not a great option...) Remember, you only need seconds. Just seconds to deliver a few good shots to this guy, and he'll die, and you won't. If you can't get the wheelchair to spin around quickly, then as the attacker comes in from behind, throw yourself to the floor, landing on your left side (weapon is up!). The wheelchair will be between you and him, so it will slow down the charge. Then, you draw and unload on him. He will likely have to stoop to cut you when you're on the floor, and that may give you all the time you need.

Now, if you practice this second option, remember to shoot one-handed, and keep that non-weapon hand up! Taking one to the arm is better than taking one to the chest or throat any day.

This is intriguing! I will see my martial arts instructor again on Monday evening. If this thread is still open at that time, I'll ask him about it. He might be able to help us further.

Keep training!

Shaun
June 30, 2006, 02:24 AM
fending off an attacker and trying to make quick shots on COM???...great reason to invest in some Crimson Trace Laser grips.....decisions decisions....

Rusty Stud
June 30, 2006, 03:01 AM
Um, i was woundering if the snap kick might be a better kick to use.
This is the kick i practice most, and i always liked it because it was fast and strong. Keep in mind I have absolutly NO Martial arts or fighting exp.
so whatever advise you give will likley be applied to my little training regiem.
In other words tell me why the side kick is better, and where should you try to kick for serious damage.

5whiskey
June 30, 2006, 06:26 AM
I think the purpose behind the side kick was to put more distance between your vitals and the knife. Anything will work better than nothing. Snap kick, front kick, side kick, whatever man. The particular method is up to the person, but I would probably be squared off to the threat initially. To land a side kick this means I would have to turn, which may take a little longer. Either way, probably the preferred target is either the groin or solarplexas. Groin is pretty hard to miss and causes alot of pain. Solarplexas isn't hard to find but you have to get inside of their arms to hit it. Not usually as hard with a kick, if it's a surprise. If you hit the solarplexas, they're not going to pursue the attack... I would go for the groin personally.

Kick to the groin as you're drawing your pistol, but keep your week hand up the whole while to protect yourself.

stephen426
June 30, 2006, 09:16 AM
Rusty Stud,

with a side kick, your torso tilts to the opposite side of your kicking leg and places your vitals the furthest away from your attacker. The side kick is a thrusting kick (extension) which directs the force outwards. A snap kick is a lifting type kick (even though you should kick with the ball of your foot) and does not generate the power of the side kick. This is because the side kick uses your quadriceps and your gluteus maximum (the largest muscle in your body) versus mainly your quadriceps for the snap kick. Furthermore, a strong snap kick should be delivered weight forward, putting your vitals in greater danger of being cut. In a sense the side kick gives you greater range, especially if you do a sliding side kick.

The turn required to execute a side kick takes just a fraction of a second and is worth the extra range and safety in my opinion. As for where to strike, I would say the stomach or chest is the ideal place. The higher you or lower you kick with a side kick, the more energy you lose on a horizontal axis. That is why Bruce Lee advocated most kicks be delivered at the waist level. You also get the most range on a horizontal axis. If you kick the attacker in the chest, you will effectively stop his charge. Since his arms are attached to the upper part of his torso, he cannot "fold over" and still cut your body. If you hit him low and double him over, he still might cut your torso as he doubles over. One advantage of a lower kick (say the stomach or groin) is that he will have great difficulty in blocking your kick (especially since he is charging you). His arms have much more leverage higher up to sweep the kick away compared to down around his stomach or groin. Besides, his hands should either be chest level for a thrust type attack or high over his head for a downward stab attack. This allows for an open shot lower down with less of a likelihood of having your leg cut. One very important thing is to block any attacks with your arms (weak arm preferably). You may still get cut, but a well placed side kick ought to take a lot of the fight out of your attacker. If not, it should at least buy you enough time to draw and shoot.

Skyguy
June 30, 2006, 10:23 AM
All this technique talk here is great entertainment, but the flat out reality is that if you engage in a real knife fight....odds are great that you'll die. Gun or not.

Most people have never even been in a fistfight or a street fight let alone a knife fight. Most people never grapple or strike. Some HTH train, but it means little against a knife.
Because of the false confidence that empty hand SD conveys, it could get you killed.

Learn this:
Run from a knife encounter....use cover...create distance...use anything to maintain distance; a tree, garbage can, bushes, fence, furniture, etc.
And 'do not' try to use HTH unless there is no escape route or you're trapped.

Live to fight another day!

Dream on........
.

5whiskey
June 30, 2006, 12:11 PM
Most people have never even been in a fistfight or a street fight let alone a knife fight. Most people never grapple or strike. Some HTH train, but it means little against a knife.
Because of the false confidence that empty hand SD conveys, it could get you killed.

I realize many on here do not train for it, but I have quite a bit. We even still train bayonet techniques (more than you would think). Most of MCMAP is geared less toward high flying kicks and punches and more on situations such as this. Encounters when you are wearing body armor, encounters wearing every day clothing, encounters CLOSE range when both have firearms (pistol and rifle grappling, basically), encounters when you have a firearm vs. a club or knife, ect. Now, don't get me wrong, alot of Marine Corps martial arts is pretty cheesy. What is not cheesy, though, is that we prac-ap pretty close to real life (i.e. we beat the crap out of each other, but it's good training).

I don't want to take anything away from the fact that you're going to get cut, but if you react well it should be contained to the extremities.

Probably the most important point of all is that, as with any other encounter with any attacker, is to make an attempt to flee first and foremost.
The exception being if you're trying to save anothers life by some hero stuff, and if you want to do that it's on you. I'm not going to say I wouldn't help, but I'm not going to recommend it to anyone else. I think how I would react would be situation dependant. With any encounter, you should be attempting to flee WHILE DRAWING YOUR WEAPON. So in essence, we both offer sage advice. Yours probably many times more so unless flight is not an option, which is the only reason I promote the option of either getting out of the attackers way or delivering a kick WHILE YOU DRAW as an option.

Samurai
June 30, 2006, 12:44 PM
Skyguy, I appreciate your sentiment, and you make a valid point. It's stupid to try to implement all this scenario-theory of bringing down a knife assailant if you have the option to simply run away. I get what you're saying there. Always avoid/evade conflict, if you can.

But, I think you're fighting against the hypothetical that we're discussing, here. You're telling us, "don't try to fight, just run away." And, of course that makes sense. Self-defense against a knife is similar to self-defense against a gun, in that, if you have the option to get away, you should ALWAYS take it. But, that's not what we're talking about here.

The scenario we're theorizing/training with here is: You can't get away. You're being charged at 21 feet by a guy with a knife, and he aims to run up and stab/slash you with the knife. You have reasonable space to move, but there's nowhere to run. You're confined in this space. You have a gun. What do you do?

If you're in a big empty field, the answer is simple: Evade the attack, and then run like the dickens! But, in OUR hypo, you're NOT in a big empty field.

I am well aware of the statistics involved in surviving a knife fight. It AIN'T good, for EITHER combatant. When in doubt, don't get in a knife fight. But, all of this is merely "fighting the hypo."

Do you understand what I'm saying? Does this in any way change your outlook on this exercise?

Skyguy
June 30, 2006, 01:01 PM
With any encounter, you should be attempting to flee WHILE DRAWING YOUR WEAPON.


Agreed.

I'm just trying to convey reality.

Many people believe that their anemic or newly found HTH is a foolproof defense against an untrained knife wielder. That can get them killed.
Even a highly trained and skilled MA pro will only escape injury about half the time, at best.
A novice is nearly a dead man walking....and therefore should 'disengage and withdraw'.

There are SD handgun instructors who also teach SD knife tactics....never telling the wide eyed student the odds of escaping uninjured or alive. Never emphasizing awareness, distance first and cover/obstacles. Never explaining that a knife wound or stab is usually worse than a .45 to the same spot.

Again, false confidence and poor training that can get you killed.
.

Skyguy
June 30, 2006, 01:08 PM
The scenario we're theorizing/training with here is: You can't get away. You're being charged at 21 feet by a guy with a knife, and he aims to run up and stab/slash you with the knife. You have reasonable space to move, but there's nowhere to run. You're confined in this space. You have a gun. What do you do?

The truth??

Invoke your god, prepare to die....then fight like hell.

People that try to kill up close and personal usually finish the job.
.

Samurai
June 30, 2006, 01:13 PM
Skyguy, I think you speak an unfortunate truth. Lots of people train, and then when they develop some moderate skill, they believe they are bullet-proof. They believe that they can walk into any situation, without regard for how dangerous it is, because they can always just "whoop-out a can of Kik But Foo." In my dojo, we call this the Cobra-Kai Syndrome, and it will often get the ego-centric novice into alot of trouble.

Knife fights are bad situations. Chances are overwhelming that, if you get into a knife fight, you're going to get hurt REALLY bad. Yes. A 1" thick, 3" long knife blade can often leave a hole that bleeds worse than a bullet wound. (Remind me to tell you about sinking my live katana into my left knee 2 days before my brown belt test in Iaido... God, what a mess!)

But, does this mean that when you see a guy with a knife, and you can't get away from him, that you automatically just lay down and accept death? NEVER!!! These techniques will take your survivability from 15% and elevate it to around 35% or 40%. More often than not if you get into a knife fight - even if you do the technique right, you're going to suffer a wound that, without hospital treatment, would be fatal. But, it's better than nothing! And, that's what survivability is about. It's cutting your losses, and taking your chances on combat as a means to just barely get you through the event.

You're absolutely right. Modern day instructors don't often emphasise the gravity of the situation that we're training for. That's why I tell people to "train, train, train." Any little thing you can do to increase your survivability is better than nothing.

AirForceShooter
June 30, 2006, 01:58 PM
first time I did it as part of my USAF training I passed on my back shooting between my knees.
I thought I was in for one of those yelling in your face moments followed by drop and give me 50.
Instructor told me "if it works you pass.

AFS

Skyguy
June 30, 2006, 02:30 PM
Modern day instructors don't often emphasise the gravity of the situation that we're training for. That's why I tell people to "train, train, train." Any little thing you can do to increase your survivability is better than nothing.

You're right and I agree....for those who are SD 'students'.

But, most folks aren't in training. Don't know combatives. They just need to know the basics of survival from attack.
They could be untrained, old or physically impaired. And that's why they should know the tactics of awareness, avoidance, disengage, distance, cover/obstacles.

The 21ft drill is just a learning tool that should convince most folks that if they have a gun they should learn early draw. (another thing poor instructors fail to teach....merely to cover their own butts)

Injury/death is part of a fight.
Everyone should fight for their life, but only as their last resort.
.

stevelyn
June 30, 2006, 04:58 PM
Model520fan,

You are mostly right about the knife attack. A determined, premeditated knife attacker is going to close the distance on you before unleashing his attack or intentions and in all probability disappear before you know what happened.


The 21 ft rule as stated in a previous post is a learning tool to show that even when you know your opponent has a knife, he is still capable of rearranging your medical records if you don't act fast enough with gaining distance and a counter-attack.

I couldn't agree more with your comments about staying away from dangerous areas, situational awareness, and watching peoples hands.

stephen426
July 1, 2006, 12:04 AM
Skyguy,

While I am not saying that everyone should attempt to use martial arts against a knife weilding attacker, I sure as heck don't advocate rolling over and dying either. If running is an option, then of course you should run. If you are not a fast runner or if you have a physical disability, then you should fight. I know that an attacker armed with a knife is dangerous. I also know that if someone is already at a run and closing in on me from a distance of 21 feet or less, then he already has a head start. I feel that we should train for these scenarios and that we could all benefit from some hand to hand training. Even if we never use it, at least we get some exercise out of it.

M14fan
July 1, 2006, 12:44 AM
I still like my walking stick. Not only can I carry it anywhere (even airlines) it can both deflect the knife attack and 'de-fang' the attacker. Defanging being the art of attacking the limb wielding the weapon. In most situations where a firearm is not the attacking weapon and my own firearm is not already drawn, I believe in judicious use of the walking stick.

And to answer the poll question, No I cannot draw and fire accurately in the time a determined attacker can cover 21 feet. :o :(

Skyguy
July 1, 2006, 10:29 AM
I still like my walking stick. Not only can I carry it anywhere (even airlines) it can both deflect the knife attack and 'de-fang' the attacker. Defanging being the art of attacking the limb wielding the weapon. In most situations where a firearm is not the attacking weapon and my own firearm is not already drawn, I believe in judicious use of the walking stick.

The walking stick/cane is a formidable weapon and hard to overcome when used by even a novice. Don't mess with a walking stick or you could get your arms or legs broken.

Canes/walking sticks create distance and are an obstacle.
They can 'stab' and 'cut' and 'sweep' and crack your skull. They're a very, very good weapon and are socially acceptable.

I see many older guys carrying a walking stick and I assume that they have it for reasons beyond support. :)
.

M14fan
July 1, 2006, 11:09 AM
Fortunately I can carry my stick anywhere had have the scars to prove its necessity. Fortunately those scars to not inhibit normal walking, moving, standing activities (a very good thing since 95% of my job involves these things) without the stick.
Unfortunately these scars do prohibit my ability to run which means that my responses to such threats as the knife-wielding attacker are necessarily directed at inflicting maximum damage as I cannot deflect and run away.
Fortunately, I build my own walking sticks and they are more than up to the task of support and defense.

Samurai
July 2, 2006, 01:11 PM
M14fan, great suggestion on the walking stick! They really are versitile and formidable weapons. One of my black-belt styles is Muso-Shindo Jodo, which is use of the japanese "jo," or short staff (around 48".) Having studied about these "walking sticks," believe me, they are great weapons.

Two points about carrying a "walking" stick...

First, legality... It's really ironic that most states that authorize licensure to carry concealed firearms also flat-out prohibit the carrying of a "club." Moreover, the legal definition of a "club," centers on the "intent to go armed." In other words, it's generally ok to carry a random stick down the street (which is good, because there are thousands of different kinds of sticks used in the world). And, if you think it's a garden stake, then it's a garden stake. If you think it's a cane, then it's a cane. If you think it's a circus tent pole, then it's a circus tent pole. BUT, if you think it's a weapon, then it's illegal to carry. So, when carrying a stick, we're stuck in this weird paradox, whereby we must play a charade with our "apparent intent" in carrying it.

What I usually do is take a standard jo, purchased at a martial arts supply store, and I slap a 3/4" furniture stopper on the bottom of it. Voualla! Instant "walking" stick! But, you still have to be careful... Alot of states (including TN, if I'm not mistaken) also have a length limit on walking sticks, whereby it's presumed to be carried "with intent to go armed" if it's beyond a certain length. Always check your jurisdictional laws!!! And, when in doubt, ask a real lawyer.

(Side note: I think Tennessee is about to pass a new licensure to carry clubs, which will allow for things like collapsable batons, but I haven't heard anything definite about it yet...)

OK. Thing two: Train, train, train! Walking sticks, like all weapons, are deadly in the hands of a trained fighter, and are slow and ineffective in the hands of a novice. Don't believe me? Watch a novice kid chop firewood sometime. It's like watching a garden hose spray against a concrete wall: Lots of movement, but nothing accomplished!

Yes, friends. There is a right and a wrong way to swing a stick. If you're going to carry one, train with it. Find a pro, and get some lessons. Otherwise, when you do swing that stick at the mugger on the street, you're just asking for him to take your stick away and beat you with it!

Incidentally, M14fan, you say you have "scars." What happened?

M14fan
July 2, 2006, 03:14 PM
Crushed a leg. Got to keep it with lots of metal but it is a literal pain most of the time. I can and have run on it a couple of times. I cannot run quickly and I always pay for it for several days. My weight does not help either. The ONLY time I run is if someone is dying. I have a significant MA background and am very comfortable using my cane as well as my sidearm. The surgical scars on both sides of my leg are my ticket to carrying my cane anywhere though I rarely actually need it.

Used to live near Knoxville. Went to HS in the mighty micropolis of Coalfield.

Samurai
July 2, 2006, 03:31 PM
Ah, Coalfield! Booming metropolis to the nature lover! ;) Great deer hunting up there, or so I hear.

Well, I'm sorry to hear about your leg. But, it sounds like you're adapting nicely.

M14fan
July 2, 2006, 08:43 PM
Happened in 01. Watched the world trade center bombing with external fixators. Told me I would not walk for a year. I was wearing lead and doing cases in 6 months. I guess I am hard headed. Most of the time my gait is normal unless the day stretches to 10 or 12 hours.

Mostly a good excuse to carry a stick.:D Really cannot run well though.

As for the deer hunting in and around Coalfield, I hear the same thing. Never had the time when I lived there and havent been there in 20+ years. Pretty country though.

HiPowering Along
July 2, 2006, 09:05 PM
The idea of drawing and dry-firing at my friend...even after clearing and checking and reclearing and rechecking and triple clearing and triple checking my weapon still sounds like a bad idea.

BAD, BAD IDEA. Who in their right mind would use a working firearm on a training/demonstration, firing at someone? Yee-gawds, man, are you nuts?

M14fan
July 2, 2006, 09:44 PM
I don't think the intent was for you to fire at your friend. That is why you are facing away from each other.

Samurai
July 3, 2006, 04:40 PM
Yeah... Rubber guns are good. Snap caps if you've got 'em, but I don't like to have snap caps out unless ALL live ammo is locked up (in a car, or otherwise...). Just a personal safety preference of mine... Being that my (Sensei's) dojo is actually on University property, we don't get to train with the live guns that often...

Rubber guns, pointed fingers, sticks, ...whatever it takes to be safe. And, just because you're training, doesn't give you the right to be a safety-moron.

and train, don't forget to train!

MidnightRambler
July 3, 2006, 07:22 PM
Never did that, but I did have an NRA instructor demonstrate with snap caps that I could not draw, rack a round into the chamber, and bring up the weapon before he was on me from 25 feet away. That was a lesson that one always carries with one in the chamber.

Kermit
July 3, 2006, 07:31 PM
I use to practice something similar back when I was still actively taking martial arts classes. Instructors would take turns charging or being charged. We even used water guns held at the ready and it was still tough. The first few times were tough & we knew what was going on...couldn't help but wonder how much worse it would be as a surprise attack.