Buying first Target RIfle

[MBush0450]

So I have been involved with shooting for a while now and I am about ready to buy my first .22 Target Rifle so that I can get involved in some matches. But I am not sure what to invest in for a Set-up. I was wondering if some of you guys could give me some suggestion for a Rifle Setup that I could use in 3P and Prone Matches.

[Pthfndr]

Here's the place to go to ask about .22 rifles.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/index.php?

[thomas15]

There is really only one manufacturer of rifles for the kind of competition you inquire about... Anschutz

Please note that that name will send shivers up and down your wallet. In fact, I think Anschutz is German for "I have no money". Good luck. :o

Tom

[Eghad]

http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/caliber22.htm

That Kimber looks like a good deal at $600.00

you will also need some other pieces of equipment, such as a shooting mat, spotting scope, ect. Might want to find a local club/activity that is CMP affiliated

[Rembrandt]

thomas15: There is really only one manufacturer of rifles for the kind of competition you inquire about... Anschutz

There are .22's......and then there are the Winchester 52's.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/52/52C.jpg

[rick_reno]

A good friend had an Anchutz, then he tried a CZ. He sold the Anschutz, and claimed the CZ shot just as good for a lot less money. I think he got the 452 CZ.

[Ignatz]

I'd look up match locations in NRA's Shooting Sports USA, find a match and see what everyone is using. Even how people get their stuff to the range will be helpfull. It's more than just a rifle. A book titled "Ways of the Rifle" will explain everything and yes the book is a little expensive.....still the book will be a valuable tool. In the beginning, knowlege will take you further than an expensive rifle and Ten-X ammo. Hopefully you'll get to the point where you'll need that Anschutz and super ammo.

[thomas15]

Sorry folks, There are few things in life that I know better than 3 position competition.

In 3 position (International type) competition there is only one gun, Anschutz. Period, end of story.

Yes, you will see a Winchester 52, a Remington 540X (or 513) and every once in a while a BSA or Walthers, maybe but probably not. But 99.9% use Anschultz. 100% of those that win use Anschultz.

Sorry again, no serious compeditor would sell a Anschutz for a Kimber or CZ. This would be the easiest way that I know of to totally humiliate yourself at a match. There are some low end Anschutz out there but the mod 54 "supermatch" international types rules in 3 position. Folks in this kind of competition sell their Anschutz for a higher price Anschutz.

The Winchester 52 shown in this thread would be good only for prone shooting. 50 years ago they were widely used in NRA 4 position but Anschutz put them out of their misery. The Anschutz open (iron) sites cost more than the Kimbers cost. You can put 3 or 4K or more into an Anschutz and that is just for the gun. As another poster said, there are the accessories that will eat up you wallet faster than a speeding bullet, Spotting scopes, scope stand, jacket, pants, boots, hat, offhand rest, mats, on and on--check out the price of Eley 10 X match ammo, that should be enough to tell you just how much it costs to get into 3 position shooting. If you go to a 3 position match, you will not see one single piece of hardware or accessory that you can buy off the shelf at your local gun store, I am not kidding.

Honestly, I don't think an adult going budget could get into 3 position for under $3K. You will need to invest at least $2500.00 into the gun and sites (intermediate Anschutz model), another $500.00 0r $600.00 into jacket and pants, misc. clothes another $200.00 (glove/hat/boots) $100.00 for a mat, $300.00 for a spotting scope and stand, $100.00 for offhand stand/loading block, a decient cleaning rod costs $30.00 or more, $50.00 for sling and keeper, butt hooks and fore-end stops, glasses, site dioplers, I'M MAKING MYSELF SICK! so I think $3000.00 is optimistic.

Remember one thing, at 10 meters or 50 feet, the 10 "ring" is a dot approx. the size of a period.........

Do you think a Kimber or CZ is going to consistently put a nick in a "ring" that size? The answer is no. The Redfield sites on the above shown Winchester 52 are 4 minute "click" adjustment for elevation or windage. You will need 12 minute click to be compeditive and that means Anschultz.

Tom

[Tetvet]

I'll jump in here late, but there is a Russian match rifle called the CM-2. Weight is nearly 12 lbs, comes with aperture sights, dewey style cleaning rod, brushes, jags, sling, about 12 inserts for the front sight and 5 different rear apertures.
The rifle is available in Adult and Cadet with the difference being in the barrel length and diameter. It is imported by Russian American Armory, and the best price is from saigacentral.com. It will shoot!!!!! My first ever prone match was a 3200 and considering I had never shot a smallbore prone match, 3066 was a pretty good showing for the rifle.

[CERBERUS]

Sorry folks, There are few things in life that I know better than 3 position competition.

In 3 position (International type) competition there is only one gun, Anschutz. Period, end of story.

Yes, you will see a Winchester 52, a Remington 540X (or 513) and every once in a while a BSA or Walthers, maybe but probably not. But 99.9% use Anschultz. 100% of those that win use Anschultz.

Sorry again, no serious compeditor would sell a Anschutz for a Kimber or CZ. This would be the easiest way that I know of to totally humiliate yourself at a match. There are some low end Anschutz out there but the mod 54 "supermatch" international types rules in 3 position. Folks in this kind of competition sell their Anschutz for a higher price Anschutz.

The Winchester 52 shown in this thread would be good only for prone shooting. 50 years ago they were widely used in NRA 4 position but Anschutz put them out of their misery. The Anschutz open (iron) sites cost more than the Kimbers cost. You can put 3 or 4K or more into an Anschutz and that is just for the gun. As another poster said, there are the accessories that will eat up you wallet faster than a speeding bullet, Spotting scopes, scope stand, jacket, pants, boots, hat, offhand rest, mats, on and on--check out the price of Eley 10 X match ammo, that should be enough to tell you just how much it costs to get into 3 position shooting. If you go to a 3 position match, you will not see one single piece of hardware or accessory that you can buy off the shelf at your local gun store, I am not kidding.

Honestly, I don't think an adult going budget could get into 3 position for under $3K. You will need to invest at least $2500.00 into the gun and sites (intermediate Anschutz model), another $500.00 0r $600.00 into jacket and pants, misc. clothes another $200.00 (glove/hat/boots) $100.00 for a mat, $300.00 for a spotting scope and stand, $100.00 for offhand stand/loading block, a decient cleaning rod costs $30.00 or more, $50.00 for sling and keeper, butt hooks and fore-end stops, glasses, site dioplers, I'M MAKING MYSELF SICK! so I think $3000.00 is optimistic.

Remember one thing, at 10 meters or 50 feet, the 10 "ring" is a dot approx. the size of a period.........

Do you think a Kimber or CZ is going to consistently put a nick in a "ring" that size? The answer is no. The Redfield sites on the above shown Winchester 52 are 4 minute "click" adjustment for elevation or windage. You will need 12 minute click to be compeditive and that means Anschultz.

Tom

I will have to disagree to a slight extent. you can get into 3 position for a lot less then stated, although as your skill level increases you will find that the more expsensive equipment is often nesasary.

I will say this though, Anshutz is not the only bully on the block, i have a walther kk200pm that can shoot with the best of em.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Accept no substitute. You will be at a distinct disadvantage if you use anything else.

I always liked the 1913 "super match", but if you are female or otherwise prohibited from using a hook-style buttplate go with the 1913 action in a 1907 stock. You will not regret it.

The new models (2013) are the top-of-the-line and they look like UFOs. If you are into that sort of thing they are outstanding.

Anschutz is your only option unless you want to be defeated. You will never see a 100-10X international card unless you do. The X-ring is a 1 millimeter dot ferchristsake, other rifles just won't cut it.

[littlmak]

Sounds like a lot of money just to "try it out". What would a beginners set up cost him? Just to get his feet wet w/o having to mortgage the house? remember, he's just starting he's probably not going to hit that period for awhile anyway.

[Jim Watson]

I agree, there has to be an entry level.
A friend bought one of those CMP Kimbers and found it would hold the NRA 10-ring without much trouble.

As Gil Hebard said of pistol shooting, a custom gun worth the couple of points that will decide the match winner is not a whole lot of help to the beginner who is going to flinch away ten points with anything.

[oldbillthundercheif]

Even for beginners, using a rifle that leaves you at a disadvantage to your competition is crazy. The first target rifle I used was a standard wedge-stock 1903 Anschutz that belonged to my rifle team. You could probably find a used one for a good price as they tend to move around with the forming and dissolution of rifle teams / clubs.

It's inherently accurate enough for any competitive smallbore event, but will not destroy your bank account as much as the other models. You can step up to a 1913 or 2016 when you feel the need for it.

Nice rifles are just as important for beginners as for the expert-qualified shooter. If you have an acceptable rifle, you KNOW that your scores are the result of your shooting technique, rather than "that darn cheap rifle".

[UniversalFrost]

Just looked at gunsamerica for prices on the 1903 and higher anschutz and they were outrageous.

If I were to get into the sport I would definately start out with somehting like the kimber which is a third of the going price for the anschutz. Just my 2 cents. I would rather spend the 600 to get strated and later spend more to get an anschitz than buying the anschitz first and finding that I am either not that caliber of shooter or the sport doesn't interest me.

[Esquire M Busterbury]

Am I crazy for thinking I could give any Anschutz a run for it's money with my grandfather's old remington target master? In the end I still have to think that it's all just pointing a tube at a target, and is more reliant on the shooter more than anything? So what kind of moa could one expect from one of these 2,500 dollar plinkers?

[oldbillthundercheif]

There is a lefty 1903 on gunbroker.com right now that you could get for probably $750. Auction ends tomorrow...

If anyone thinks they would be getting a "deal" by spending $150 less on a vastly inferior piece of machinery, go right ahead. Just be prepared for frustration.

I have a remington "matchmaster" that will put 5 shots into 3/8ths of an inch at 50yds, but that does not mean it is suitable for competition.

I can not understate the importance of being on a level playing field with your competitors in a smallbore match. If you were in a NASCAR race, what do you think your chances would be if you were driving a minivan or even a street-legal hot-rod? This is the same sort of situation and EVERYONE will have an Anschutz.

A used 1903 can be had for less than $1K, and probably for less than $750 if you look long and hard and are willing to put up with a scratched stock or other cosmetic issues.

And it WILL shoot 10 shots into a 23/100in hole from a bench rest.

Anyone who is advocating something less than this minimal standard has never shot a smallbore match. Heck, they are probaly the guys you see standing around drinking coffee before their pistol matches making fun of the guy with the Hammereli.

"Look at that fancy thing har har... my daddy's Colt Woodsman is all I need"

Those people do not win matches.

[littlmak]

My Z28 might not win at darlington but for the sheer fun of driving in a circle at the limit of my abilities. A spectator race at a local short track is all I'd need to decide if I have the talent and desire to get a little more serious.

[littlmak]

but then again it's only money.

[Dead-Nuts-Zero]

What kind of friendly competition would one find where you could shoot a CZ or Winchester 52? There must be something that is more fun than spending 3K on the pro match outfits and taking years to develop the discipline to shoot such matches. I know 3p and Prone Matches are out of the question for me.

I too have an interest in some target competitions but where do I find the guys who have the fun and are much less serious?

Is Bull’s-eye paper punching at say 50' or 75' a sport that can be enjoyed for less than $1,000?

I have the interest in trying casual matches but don't know where to look or what such matches would be called or what gun and gear is required. This is a new direction of shooting for me. Reading this thread, maybe some of the other posters here may have interest in the lower level games too. Any suggestions would be helpful.

I hope I am not getting too far off topic. :eek:

[Jim Watson]

Our club runs a CMP Rimfire Sporter match.
.22 lr, any repeating action, maximum weight 7.5 lbs, maximum scope 6X (also open sight division) minimum 3 lb trigger pull.
Prone, sitting, standing; slowfire and rapidfire at each position; 50 yds prone and sitting, 25 standing.
Read about it at
http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/rimfire.pdf
There is a forum where you can probably locate matches
http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/

Guns need not be expensive, the target is fairly generous. Lots'a 10-22s stock and souped up, lots of CZ 452s.

[P-990]

For non-match rifles, CMP Sporter.

If you really, REALLY want to shoot smallbore 3P, but aren't ready to dive into an Anschutz, look around for a Walther KK100. My little brother used to shoot one, and it will shoot darn good. Not good enough to WIN, but close. I shot it (the rifle, not smallbore) a few times and it would cut one-holers at 50-yards prone as long as I did my job. (I'm a Master-class Highpower shooter myself, FWIW.)

And the accuracy thing is really crucial. Like trying to practice for a Highpower match running junk Lake City ball. Just don't buy into it; it's more frustrating than it's worth IMO. My experience is that the best way to get where you're going is to just give up and spend your $$ up front. Lots less aggravation.

[FirstFreedom]

Depends on the budget. If it's high, get an Anschutz/Cooper/Pardini/Walther/RWS/Win 52. If it's medium, Kimber or Rem 504. If it's lowish, look at CZ 452 or the Izhmash's from Russia.

Check CDNN Investments for deals on Anschutzes.

Also check out a company called Champion's Choice, for gun & gear options.

And as mentioned, just go to some competitions as a spectator to see what they are using... you don't have to have top of the line to have fun, and possibly even win.

[Shrike]

I have always loved Anschutz. they just feel right, and if not, just adjust all the fittings untill it does.

Regardless, the main thing here is to buy only once, and just bring what you can afford. NO ONE will ever laugh at you for bring a less expensive rifle. People are very friendly in this sport, and will bend over backwards to help out a newcomer...What do I mean? I once saw someone lend a new guy a shooting coat and mat, beccause he did not have one. Someone else walked over to him with his Kowa scope.

Anyway -if you think small bore is expensive.....wait till you get hooked on HighPower match rifles.

[TargetTerror]

Look at the CM-2. It is a Russian gun made by Izhmash. There is quite a bit of information on it at rimfirecentral. Sourcing one is a bit sketchy right now, but you can buy one NIB for under $400. One place to check is stanleysproshop.com. The list only the Cadet model (junior size), but can usually order one.

General consensus at rimfirecentral is that the CM-2 will shoot every bit as good as an Annie or other European target rifle. You are giving up fit and finish, not functionality. As a comparison, I own a Baikal IZH-46M air pistol (it may or may not be made by the same company as the CM-2, but the accuracy v quality should be the same). Fit and finish are quite good, though I needed some aftermarket grips to make it fit better. It doesn't point quite as well as the Morini and Pardini guns my fellow shooters have let me try, but my Izzy cost me $270. There is a difference, but not a $1000 difference (at least not to try the sport out).

Another option is to buy a used gun. Thadscott.com has a bunch of older Anschutz rifles, in both the 64 action (good) or 54 action (best). They tend to be older and have more markings on them, but they should shoot.

Info on the CM-2:
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156634
http://www.raacfirearms.com/CM-2_Cadet.htm

Discussion of Anschutz v CM-2:
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152294

[oldbillthundercheif]

Thadscott.com did not have a single Anschutz in stock as far as I could tell. I looked all over the website and had no luck at all...

Too bad. I'm in the market for a used Deutsche Wunderbubchen.

I'm glad you like the CM-2 so much but it is not in the same league as any Anschutz. It's not a viable option for competition above an informal level.

[P-990]

I agree with oldbill; comparing a sub-$500 rifle to an Anshutz is like comparing a Daisy Red Rider to a FWB free-rifle. Actually, a FWB is another good option for a target .22.

I still say that if you can locate a used KK100, you're in good shape. I wish we still had my brother's old one right now. :( Much easier to practice on a 50-yard smallbore range in the winter, once snow hits.

For certain informal matches you could probably do OK with an accurized 10/22, if it suits your fancy. Just as another option.

[Ken O]

Another suggestion here.... try McLane Tilton http://www.mtguns.com/ he has over 1500 used Anshutz in stock, also Walther and other higher end match rifles. He doesn't list what he has on the internet, so its best to call him and he can guide you on what model would be best for what you want to do. He does a bore scope on the rifle before he sends it. He also is a distributor for the CM-2 if that is the way you want to go, but talk to him, he will give you the straight scoop.
I recently picked up a 1407 from him, and I got a real hammer (and what a beauty also).

[onlybrowning]

I shoot a Walther GX1. I have shot a lot of Anschutz, and while I like them, they are not as easy to adjust as Walthers. Also, Walther offers an electronic trigger. Another is Feinwerkbau. I have not shot one though, but some guys in my league do. I will post a pic of mine if someone tells me how.

[onlybrowning]

It is a Walther GX1 and I bought it used. It has an inexpensive (junk) BSA 6-24x50mm on it and I have the trigger adjusted to a single stage at 1.6 OZ. These can be had used for relatively cheap.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v113/bagged92/handguns004.jpg

[Shrike]

^^^^^^^^that is a nice lookin machine there!

[Dead-Nuts-Zero]

onlybrowning

:D Interesting!

Do you know what the overall weight is on that unit?

[onlybrowning]

Without the weights I think about 13 lbs. I use about 3lbs of weights on it for the offhand position. I should post a pic of the targets we shoot if I can find one handy. Pretty slick. I wish I could shoot my handguns like this rifle. Also, thanks for the nice compliments.

[drobbin]

I recently acquired an Anschutz 2013 sport target rifle. This model is almost like the Super Match though a bit lighter. Shooting this rifle with some good Eley ammo has to be experienced to be believed. I started out shooting standing free rifle position without sling or other accessories at 55 yards. I surprised myself with several hits in the 10 ring and most other rounds in the black 8-9 rings. This is not to say that I'm any sort of great shooter.... just feels good to learn the skill. You won't regret getting an Anschutz... of course your bank account may groan a bit. Dan

[Tim R]

I decided I needed to do some practice during the winter to keep my high power skills sharp. A friend of mine let me use his little used Win 52C for use in a heated indoor 22 range.

All I can say is I now understand the hype on the 52. The rifle flat shoots using plain ole' CCI standard using a post in the front sight.

[shooterer]

Just like Tim, I joined a smallbore gallery team as a winter practice for summer Highpower matches. I am only 1 of 2 shooters using iron sights. Wanting to test the waters before I jumped in, I bought a used Kimber 82G for $380 and have been using up the case of Wolf match target that I bought for my CLE .22lr upper.

All I can say is WOW, smallbore is hard (and addicting)

I have been making progress on my scores, but I am still at the 290 range while the winners are shooting 365-380. I do understand that I will never be able to shoot 350+ with the rifle I have, but I needed to start somewhere and work on positions (kneeling sucks).

Being a gun hoarder all my life I have many rifles in the $300 - $700 range sitting in the safe not being used. I have now started the process to cull the heard to fund a Anschutz 1913 supper match in a 1918 stock. My wife thinks I am crazy for wanting a 3k rifle, but as long as I selling to buy she is OK with it.

Hello, my name is Jim and I am now addicted to very accurate rifles.


ps, yes I know this is an old thread.

[4runnerman]

Wow,Never thought it was so serious,. Kinda make my 10/22 look like junk.I shoot primers out of shot gun shells at 25 yards with ease,but a dot???. That seems very small. 22's are very fun to plink with and cheap.

[kraigwy]

A lot of good information and opinions,

BUT

You need to decide on what type of competition you are talking about.

If you are serious about NRA or ISU Small bore then you are talking a lot of money. Best starting place I think would be the CMP rifles. For the price they work quite well then move on to the higher quality guns.

If you don't know how far you want to go then I would recommend getting into the CMP Rimfire Sporter Shooting. NRA & ISU is expensive, you are talking about a $1500 for the rifle, another grand or so for the other equipment (two leather coats, one for NRA and one for ISU), kneeling rolls, mats, scope and ammo stands, etc etc. Of course we haven't figured out what type of NRA ISU shooting, do you want a Prone rifle for English Matches, a Free Rifle, Standard Rifle or what.

CMP Rimfire Sporters are a bit different. A lot cheaper to get into. Just about any rifle you find in the gun rack will work.........but:

Yeah another BUT

What is the reason for 22 competitions, practice for hunting, practice for HP or Vintage Military Rifle matches.

I attended the CMP GSM Master Instructor's course with a couple who were really into Instructing CMP Rimfire Sporter Matches. They said pretty much any good 22 bolt gun would work. Its not a big money sport. How ever serious CMP Rimfire Shooters have gone to the CZ 452.

A lot of 22 competitors are into rimfire matches as a training tool for HP or CMP Vintage Rifle Matches. They recommend the CZ 452 Military Trainer. About the cheapest of the CZ line, but the sights are ladder sights like those that that come on surplus military rifles such as the 1903 Springfield, Mauser, and Mosin.

If you just want a starter 22 then Savage, Marlin etc make good ones for not much money.

Winchester 52s are great, but they don't make them any more, used ones are gonna be pricey. The H&R Model 12 or 5200, are good clones, but again they don't make them and the prices are climbing on those also.


CMP rimfire rifles arn't picky about ammo, mainly because the size of the scoring rings are huge compared to the ISU International Targets. Regardless of rifle you use in ISU, ammo is gonna make a difference. After you find the right ammo for your gun, you'll run out and then you'll find out your new ammo is a different lot number and you're gonna have to start all over. Rimfire sporters will let you get by with any good ammo.

I wont recommend a rifle, I would recommend you get into CMP Rimfire Sporter Shooting, and see where you want to go from there. Small bore shooting has many venues, the venue will determine what rifle you need.