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JDG
June 4, 2006, 11:36 AM
A friend of mine took a part time job as a reserve, in a local sheriff dept. The training officer told him to shoot one handed with the gun sideways. I dont know if he's putting me on, or what. I've heard to slightly cant the gun towards center, but not compleatly sideways. I am to embarrased to try this method in public, so I will try it out some where alone. I tend to push my one hand shots off to the side opposite of which hand I'm using, we'll see if this helps.

brickeyee
June 4, 2006, 12:45 PM
BS. Pure and simple.

threefivesevenmag
June 4, 2006, 12:57 PM
When shooting weak-hand-only, it can sometimes help to cant the gun slightly so your dominant eye can get a decent sight picture. Canting does not make the holding position turn into "gangsta" style. It is only slight.

Stay safe, shoot straight. No gangsta style.

JoshB
June 4, 2006, 07:04 PM
If you were supposed to shoot "gansta style" the sights would be on the side.
Has anyone ever seen that advertisement for Glock side mounted sights? It was hilarious.

RoscoeC
June 4, 2006, 07:34 PM
I was taught a slight cant - about 45 degrees. The instructor described it as straight up being normal, 90 degrees being "homey style", and the 45 degree cant as "half homey". When shooting one handed (which I practice with both hands at every range session), I use the "half homey". Works for me. I can shoot Almost as well one handed as I can in the normal isosceles stance. As my friend puts it, not exactly minute of angle ... more like minute of bad guy.

Lucky 7
June 4, 2006, 08:29 PM
Erick has it right on the money. The wrist will take a natural cant in order to support the act of firing a handgun. We were taught that when we (briefly) went over it in BSG. Anywhere btween 5 and 20 degrees based on the weapon and the size of the operators hand. It shouldnt feel UNnatural at all so play around with until it DOES feel right.

Regards and Semper Fi!
-L7

OneInTheChamber
June 4, 2006, 11:18 PM
http://www.topglock.com/images/hnsbig.jpg

The slight cant can help with controlling recoil. But, we all know that gangsta style isn't worth anything.

Picture is not exactly politically correct, but doesn't make fun of anything that isn't true.

Topthis
June 5, 2006, 02:32 AM
I thought that the Gansta Style was not just that the gun is sideways, but also the wrist is broken at a 90 degree angle as well! In fact, I had seen an older Israeli shooting video that showed these commando's racking the slide of their handguns by twisting wrist so that the gun would be sideways, and then they would fire from this sideways position.

Glock 31
June 5, 2006, 02:38 AM
I've heard that the full cant 90 degrees to the side is for shooting from behind, and around a corner while trying to expose as little as possible to the opponent. It's supposed to ensure that brass doesn't eject in a hindering way. Or something like that, maybe that was for only a .45 degree cant. Been awhile since I took the self defense course.:cool:

Silvanus
June 5, 2006, 03:51 AM
And from behind ballistic shields. I've seen that on pictures from a report about GIGN.

Para Bellum
June 5, 2006, 04:04 AM
Two good comments (not mine, I admit):

The origin of this style of shooting is Israeli intelligence Mossad. In the mid 1970s they sent an assassination squad to Europe to avenge the murders of their Olympic wrestling team, They were armed with mdl 70 Berretta 22lr pistols with special low powered ammo, just enough to RELIABLY cycle.. They shot from point blank range, carried the pistols with an empty chamber and at the last second, pulled back the slide to chamber a round. this is more easily done with the pistol held horizontally (try it). since no aiming was required, they simply shot from this position. They never failed to kill, (although they did get a wrong guy in Norway once).

[Edited by TABING on 06-06-2001 at 06:36 PM]
From TABING (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/member.php?u=868) in http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68989&highlight=gangsta

but marv800 (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/member.php?u=25511) said it best at
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1495843&highlight=history+%22gangsta+grip%22#post1495843

The real reason and history the "gangsta grip" was originally developed was because the crackheads who used the weapons often confused the mag release with the trigger. By holding the gun sideways, they would save themselves the embarassment of dropping the clip out of the gun. Its sort of a "darwin thing" in the hood. Only those that learned the gangsta grip survived to pass their genes on.

JDG
June 5, 2006, 03:06 PM
OneInTheChamber, that pic is a hoot!:D

Chris Cullen
June 5, 2006, 06:57 PM
I rotate my firearm when using single hand shooting. I normally shoot from an isoceles position because I am left eye dominant. I have more control and accuracy in this position. I had always had difficulty in shooting single handed as it was never accurate and uncontrolable in specific situations.
A firearms instructor introduced me to this new single hand rotation method a few months back and I love it. It is so much more suited to my shooting style and I have more control over the firearm.
I use this position while in the isoceles stance with your left arm across onto your right shoulder pulling downwards to provide support. The arm position is more agressive like throwing a punch and provides strength down the entire arm.

I used to get the "Gangsta" comments at the range, but my target scores reveal all and I'm slowly seeing a lot more people adopting this technique.

It works for me.

Chris C

silicon wolverine
June 5, 2006, 10:36 PM
Another "canted gun" position is if you are wounded in your dominant arm and are shooting with teh weak hand, canting the gun 30-45 deg inward reduces the muzzle jump and allows you to get back on target quicker. Ive tried it and for some reason it onyl works with the weak hand. i shoot poorer doing this with my strong hand.

SW

SrtDog
June 7, 2006, 01:11 PM
No Field Training Officer ever told him to shoot sideways. Sounds like someone making up an excuse to shoot like a jackass.

BlueTrain
June 7, 2006, 01:30 PM
Don't forget to practice shooting with your left hand while driving and also shooting at fleeing cars while standing on the running board.

skeeter1
June 7, 2006, 01:44 PM
At my range, the range officer will come in and chastise those (they usually have a baseball cap on backwards) and shooting "gangsta style." We refer to them as "fools." There's nothing like being sprayed with hot 9mm shells on the head by somebody in the next stall trying to look cool, just like the last rap video he saw.

Capt Charlie
June 7, 2006, 03:16 PM
While a slight cant has its advantages, I suspect that in this case, the rookie was the victim of cop shop locker room humor.

Remember your service days? In the Navy, we sent new guys all over the ship looking for 5 pounds of "relative bearing grease" or a spool of "water line" :D . I'm guessing this was something similar, and the vets on his department are probably laughing their backsides off ;) .

BigO01
June 7, 2006, 03:31 PM
Gangsta Style ? LOL

News flash ! There's this realy Cool and effective shooting style Called the Weaver , you guys should try it sometime !

Mannlicher
June 7, 2006, 03:32 PM
I am not so sure that any cant is helpful. Those with a lot more experience than I have seem to think it is, but I have my doubts. I personally don't cant my pistols or revolvers off center, and I have never had a problem with 'gun control'.

gonz
June 7, 2006, 04:42 PM
Agreed on the cant to limit exposure around a corner/obstacle- gonz

MISFIRE
June 7, 2006, 06:03 PM
True story. Homeboy decided to rob a gun store in Dellwod Mo. Owner and every employee in the store carries in plain sight. Two armed employees and owner in front and two local cops visiting with employee in back. Panicked robber started shooting, 90 degree tilt, gangsta style, randomly spraying bullets mostly right to left not even coming close to hitting anyone, before he suffered multiple hits. Reportedly, not one miss by the gun shop occupants and would be robber expired in minutes on front lawn. Owner was at his desk just inside front door maybe 8 feet from the shooter and said the guy just held the pistol out and pulled the trigger as fast as he could. When I went in about two days later the owner and employees were still talking about the dumb robber incident. As I glanced around I noticed a bullet hole about in a door frame about six feet up from floor , looked closer and found one of the robbers 9 mm bullets still lodged there. Owner has it now as conversation piece and poignant reminder to be vigilant.

Glockamolie
June 7, 2006, 07:24 PM
Capt. Charlie -

Reminds me of when I was a rookie LEO, along with 2 other new recruits. Lucky for me, I knew the phoenetic alphabet as used by police. They printed up a "fake" phoenetic alphabet for us to study. It started off normally: Adam, Boy, Charles, but then went to an "alternate", like Dad, Emu, Flyswatter... :D I knew it was bogus, but I didn't tell anyone. I think they may have used an alternate alphabet in one of the Naked Gun movies, too.

Blackwater OPS
June 7, 2006, 08:01 PM
There ARE situations where a 90 degree cant is beneficial, for example when clearing a room if you need to fire at target to your extreme left(almost behind you) or when kneeling and shooting over a barricade. Bottom line is you MIGHT need to shoot that way in a tense situation. So it could not hurt to train that way every once in a while, to be able to point shoot with a 90 degree cant, if you had to.

BADMAN400
June 7, 2006, 08:52 PM
I have noticed that a slight cant with weak hand only, helps some to strengthen control and get back on target a little quicker.

GunGator
June 7, 2006, 08:54 PM
Two good comments (not mine, I admit):


Quote:
The origin of this style of shooting is Israeli intelligence Mossad. In the mid 1970s they sent an assassination squad to Europe to avenge the murders of their Olympic wrestling team, They were armed with mdl 70 Berretta 22lr pistols with special low powered ammo, just enough to RELIABLY cycle.. They shot from point blank range, carried the pistols with an empty chamber and at the last second, pulled back the slide to chamber a round. this is more easily done with the pistol held horizontally (try it). since no aiming was required, they simply shot from this position. They never failed to kill, (although they did get a wrong guy in Norway once).

Quote:
The real reason and history the "gangsta grip" was originally developed was because the crackheads who used the weapons often confused the mag release with the trigger. By holding the gun sideways, they would save themselves the embarassment of dropping the clip out of the gun. Its sort of a "darwin thing" in the hood. Only those that learned the gangsta grip survived to pass their genes on.
__________________

The best explanation I have heard so far has to do with rapid fire or automatic training. In third world countries where ammo is expensive and life is not, Rebels are trained to turn a rifle sideways. If you are spraying a weapon in a matter of milliseconds your muzzle will be pointed at the sky. You may hit a pigeon but not much else. Turn your weapon sideways and you may hit another combatant. Many african nations used this techniqhe and eventually it migrated to various places.

GG

skeeter1
June 8, 2006, 08:02 PM
Misfire--

That's amazing. At the range I frequent, all of the employees are openly carrying, there are plenty of cops to go there for practice, and the rest of us obviously have at least one gun in our posession.

Now which would you rather try to rob? A bank or a gun shop? I think Darwin would be glad that one was removed from the gene pool.

BigO01
June 8, 2006, 08:21 PM
yea Misfire thats a true story it's just a shame the owner was sent to a Federal prison for doing "Straw Deals" selling handguns a year later and lost his shop .

I miss Marshels they always had what I wanted for reloading and I didn't have to drive out to St. Charles .

jamaica
June 9, 2006, 02:26 PM
Hype

A cant will make the gun shoot off to one side. Who needs it?

I like to hit what I shoot at.

Blackwater OPS
June 9, 2006, 03:24 PM
A cant will make the gun shoot off to one side. Who needs it?

Why would it do that? the angle of the barrel has not changed. Improper trigger pull or recoil can throw a shot of at any cant.

smince
June 9, 2006, 08:34 PM
Slightly off-topic, but:

We were at a local family amusement park a few weeks ago. While the family were on a ride, I headed to the shooting gallery to amuse myself. A teenager was trying to shoot one of the rifles "gangsta". He couldn't seem to understand why he couldn't hit anything and I wasn't doing too good myself as I was laughing so hard.:D

jamaica
June 11, 2006, 11:17 AM
A cant will make a gun shoot off to one side.

It has to do with gravity.

Bullets do not go in a strait line, but as soon as launched begin to fall to earth due to gravity.

Consider a scoped rifle sighted in for 100 yards. The scope is aproximately 1.5 inches above the bore. As the bullet is launched it will cross the line of sight at somewhere around 60 feet, and travel above the line of sight until it reaches 100 yards where it will again cross the line of sight hitting the target.

In order for this to happen the barrel is not parallel to the line of sight, but is angled upward. Now picture the result if you cant the rifle 90 degrees to the left. The line of sight is still on target, but the bore is angled to the left, which is where the bullet will go. It will also shoot low, because the angle of upward tilt to compensate for gravity is missing.

Yes a cant does make the gun shoot off to one side as I said earlier. It will also make it shoot lower.

If you know of any pistol calibers that shoot in straight lines and ignore gravity, I want to know about them.

PS this can be easily demonstrated at the range.

Blackwater OPS
June 11, 2006, 03:47 PM
Consider a scoped rifle sighted in for 100 yards. The scope is aproximately 1.5 inches above the bore. As the bullet is launched it will cross the line of sight at somewhere around 60 feet, and travel above the line of sight until it reaches 100 yards where it will again cross the line of sight hitting the target.
In order for this to happen the barrel is not parallel to the line of sight, but is angled upward. Now picture the result if you cant the rifle 90 degrees to the left. The line of sight is still on target, but the bore is angled to the left, which is where the bullet will go. It will also shoot low, because the angle of upward tilt to compensate for gravity is missing.
Yes a cant does make the gun shoot off to one side as I said earlier. It will also make it shoot lower.

All of that sounds really good, but it's ridiculous since anyone shooting a pistol IS NOT using both sights but rather point shooting or using the front sight only, at least in the practical scenarios I laid out. They are NOT shooting with a Rifle, and probably not shooting past 60 feet, CERTAINLY not past 100 yards. This is one possible technique that could be used in a life or death combat situation where every milisecond counts and you need a hit on the guy about to shoot you, not a target match hitting paper.

PS This can be easily demonstrated in real life.

jamaica
June 11, 2006, 06:12 PM
Blackwater

quoting:
All of that sounds really good, but it's ridiculous since anyone shooting a pistol IS NOT using both sights but rather point shooting or using the front sight only, at least in the practical scenarios I laid out. They are NOT shooting with a Rifle, and probably not shooting past 60 feet, CERTAINLY not past 100 yards. This is one possible technique that could be used in a life or death combat situation where every milisecond counts and you need a hit on the guy about to shoot you, not a target match hitting paper.

PS This can be easily demonstrated in real life. end quote.

My first response was in answer to the original post. There was no mention of point shooting. I am not picking apart your scenarios. I assumed he meant that he would use the sights as usual, in which case he would shoot off to one side as I said. If you are not going to use sights it doesn't matter. If your target is under 15 away feet it probably doesn't matter either.

I used a rifle only to demonstrate "WHY", which is what you asked.

I agree, it is good to practice point shooting, or as we say out West, "Shoot From The Hip". This is where you learn about the "pointability" of your gun. Some guns just point well and others do not.

My experience after many years of hunting is that no matter what the game or the gun, you have to make a good hit to kill anything, including a fly. You don't often do that just pointing and hoping. You carefully align the sights on a vital area, and squeeze off.

The sights are put on the gun for a good reason, that is to help you hit your target. All sights take into consideration what gravity is going to do. To be properly aligned the sights have be aligned vertically above the bore. Any cant will cause errors. How much error will depend of a number of factors, including the distance to the target. I am sure you will notice this phenomena shooting at 25 yards with any handgun. (Using Sights)

Just something to think about.

wolfdog45
June 11, 2006, 06:47 PM
I have tried shooting gangsta style but it does not work for me. I would only use it if I had to and only if i was real close to the target.

HorseSoldier
June 11, 2006, 07:16 PM
This would actually be a cool one to refer to the guys at Mythbusters, I think.

I can honestly say I've never given it a try. Long, long ago had an LEO explain to me that 90 degree cant puts point of impact off in some unexpected direction and took it as gospel, but honestly could not say if he knew what he was talking about or not (that being way back in the day when I thought that a badge meant you were by default an expert pistolero. . . )

bigdave
June 12, 2006, 07:27 AM
while i was doing my IET (initial employment training , im a rifleman in the Australian army) , on alot of the MOUT courses we did , i always found that aiming around or above certain obstacles , while shouldering my rifle "gangsta style" was a bit handy , but generally no , gangsta style is just stupid. though we did have an instructor , who for some reason when firing Browing HP 9mms , preferred to hold it gangsta style but with two hands , 70% of the time . when we asked him why he preferred it that way , he had this look of dumb shock and he said " i have no idea".

(Post edited by Capt Charlie for veiled language)

Jack Malloy
June 12, 2006, 07:39 AM
Homeboy nite sites special aside, there is a reason why bad guys lose gunfights.
Unless you can customize it homeboy style (LOL) you will not hit what you are aiming at because the sites are on TOP of the gun, not the side.
On New Years eve a local crack dealer was hanging in a bar when a local triggerman walked in and shot at him with his low quality .380.
He missed a 270 pound man and hit the two guys standing to the side of him.
Fortunately the gun jammed halfway through the clip and the Saturday Nite Speical Assassin then fled out the door....:p

brickeyee
June 13, 2006, 07:49 AM
"Unless you can customize it homeboy style (LOL) you will not hit what you are aiming at because the sites are on TOP of the gun, not the side."

AS al;ready pointed out, handguns tend to have sights and barrels that are rather signifiacntly out of larallel to make up for the recoil before the bullet exits the barrel.
It is a BS method with so few practical applications as to still be BS.

Harley Quinn
June 13, 2006, 08:17 AM
Pure and simple, a slight cant is not 45 degrees.

HQ

pickpocket
June 13, 2006, 06:35 PM
A cant will make a gun shoot off to one side.

It has to do with gravity.

Bullets do not go in a strait line, but as soon as launched begin to fall to earth due to gravity.

Consider a scoped rifle sighted in for 100 yards. The scope is aproximately 1.5 inches above the bore. As the bullet is launched it will cross the line of sight at somewhere around 60 feet, and travel above the line of sight until it reaches 100 yards where it will again cross the line of sight hitting the target.

In order for this to happen the barrel is not parallel to the line of sight, but is angled upward. Now picture the result if you cant the rifle 90 degrees to the left. The line of sight is still on target, but the bore is angled to the left, which is where the bullet will go. It will also shoot low, because the angle of upward tilt to compensate for gravity is missing.

Yes a cant does make the gun shoot off to one side as I said earlier. It will also make it shoot lower.

If you know of any pistol calibers that shoot in straight lines and ignore gravity, I want to know about them.

PS this can be easily demonstrated at the range.

That's a joke, right? Your theory is sound, just completely backwards.

If you place a laser-boresight in the chamber of your weapon...would it travel at an upward angle? No.

If you were to place a laser on your rear sight and align it with your front sight, would you notice that it traveled at a slight downward angle? Yes.

THAT is what accounts for the fact that a projectile will intersect line-of-sight twice; NOT because the barrel is angled upwards. The projectile will NEVER rise above the front sight.
There is also nothing about firearm design that will "compensate" for gravity.

smince
June 13, 2006, 07:00 PM
The projectile will NEVER rise above the front sight.


Sure about this? If you are zeroed at, say 300 yds, and shoot at say, 100yds, the bullet will impact 2-3" high (depending on caliber). This IS above the front sight. I think it is called mid-range trajectory.

True the barrel isn't at an "upward angle". But when you line up your downward-slanting sights, the barrel does rise up also.

Bender711
June 13, 2006, 07:05 PM
I think he means if the barrel is level.

pickpocket
June 13, 2006, 07:17 PM
You're right - we're saying the same thing.

It only appears to be above the front sight. In reality, the projectile can never really rise above the bore-line. If you draw an imaginary straight line from your front sight to the target, it is physically impossible for the round to cross that line.
If you zero at 300m and shoot a target at 100m, you are correct - the round will strike high. That is because your sights have been adjusted DOWN to intersect the bullet trajectory at 300m and at 100m the round is still "above" line of sight.

Think about it this way: in order to shoot further out you must adjust your sights. In essence, you are angling the sights so that they are at a sharper downward angle, which - once you sight in - forces the angle of departure (or the angle at which you are holding the barrel) to increase upwards. However, because a bullet has no inherent flight capability, it is physically impossible for it to rise above the boreline.

The upward cant of a barrel is not a design feature, it is a product of adjustable sights.

stratus
June 13, 2006, 07:21 PM
My experience after many years of hunting is that no matter what the game or the gun, you have to make a good hit to kill anything, including a fly. You don't often do that just pointing and hoping. You carefully align the sights on a vital area, and squeeze off.
Blackwater is talking about CQB (or approaching CQB) with a pistol, not hunting.

gdeal
June 13, 2006, 07:54 PM
nuff said.

Bender711
June 13, 2006, 08:12 PM
The only way that you could have the bullet raise over the front site would be to shoot over a spinning super conducting magnet, but thats just silly.

Harley Quinn
June 13, 2006, 08:15 PM
many of you have failed to grasp the situation.

Like the man said "stupid" that is a quote, I don't use that word.
Ignorant is better.

HQ

jamaica
June 13, 2006, 11:26 PM
Oh c'mon, surely you guys have heard about trajectories and the relationship of bullet path to line of sight?

If not perhaps you could do some research. Perhaps you can come to understand that the bullet does indeed rise above the line of sight and come back down to hit the target at the range where the gun is sighted in. The only exception to this is if you are shooting closer than where the trajectory of the bullet first crosses the line of sight, which in my rifle illustration would be 60 feet.

Pistol bullets have a poor balistic coefficient and travel at much lower velocities than rifle bullets, which means that they do not have a very flat trajectory. In other words you would have to raise your rear sight quite a bunch to get the pistol to zero at 100 yards. You launch the bullet at an uphill angle and it arcs up and back down to hit the target. At midrange the bullet would be quite a bit above the line of sight. Much more than a rifle bullet would be (assuming sighted in at 100 yards)

Once you figure this out you will then be able to comprehend why a cant will make the gun shoot off to one side and low.

The Hornady Reloading Handbook has excellent balistic tables and goes into this in detail. It is pure physics; not my law, but natural law. You might ignore mens laws, but if you ignore the law of nature the consequences are immediate and often catastrophic.

jamaica
June 13, 2006, 11:36 PM
quoting pickpocket


It only appears to be above the front sight. In reality, the projectile can never really rise above the bore-line.

The projectile does not rise above the bore line. What I said is, the bullet rises above the line of sight.

If you draw an imaginary straight line from your front sight to the target, it is physically impossible for the round to cross that line.

I am going to assume you mean with the sights properly aligned on the target?
If so your statement is incorrect.
The line of sight is a straight line. It is the line you see from your eye to the target; looking over your sights, post centered in the notch and level on top and aligned on the bullseye.
Yes, the bullet does rise above the line of sight.

Have you ever thrown a baseball? Remember how it arches up then falls back down? That is exactly what a bullet does. You are out in right field and grab a grounder. You are going to throw it to the first baseman. You can see him. That is a straight line from your eye to the target. That is your line of sight. Now throw the ball............................... it arches way up above the line of sight and drops back down into his mitt. Right? You actually launch that baseball at quite an uphill angle to get it there. Right?

Bullets and sights work the same way. It is physics. It is just the way it is. No room for arguement. You can't change it. You may come to understand it.

stratus
June 14, 2006, 12:04 AM
Umm... where's Handy when we need him?

smince
June 14, 2006, 03:59 AM
+1 for what jamaica said.

Harley Quinn
June 14, 2006, 08:40 AM
The line of sight and the ability to put the bullet on target is one thing.

The bullet leaving the gun and falling by the force of gravity is quite another.

This is where speed and lightweight bullets rule vs slow and heavy. To get on target you have to have a lot of trickery going on with the heavy ones or else they never will get there.

So we are tricking Mother Nature:) , you know what they say about Tricking Mother Nature:eek:
It depends on the way it is communicated and the way one perceives:rolleyes:

edit: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212992 read this one. <*-)

HQ:D

pickpocket
June 14, 2006, 12:03 PM
jamaica -

What you are referencing is the "Angle of Departure".. .which is what you CREATE when you adjust your sights. The lower the angle you create by moving your rear sight up the more you increase the Angle of Departure by tilting the front of the barrel up.

The bullet only rises above the line of sight (created by looking through the rear sight and past the front) because that line MUST angle downward in order to work. NO BULLET has a flat trajectory - they all follow the parabolic curve. You angle the barrel up, simply rotate the parabolic curve up as well..the round will fall neither faster nor slower in relation to the force of gravity.

I think the main difference between what you and I are saying (I think) is that you stated in an earlier post that the barrel angles upwards - I'm saying that if you are referencing the Angle of Departure then indeed, the barrel angles upwards if only artificially. However, if you are saying that the barrel angles up in the gun in a state of rest then I must disagree.

I shoot the C.A.R. system, and if you're familiar with that system the gun is fired at about a 30 degree inward tilt - and I can put rounds right where I want them out to 20-30m. I don't have a real desire to shoot my pistol accurrately past those distances, since my focus is on CQB - but in those cases we actually teach to level the gun out so that you can use the sights as they were meant to be used when lining up for a longer shot.

But, within the context of this thread and the original question - my answer is that a 30-degree cant or so isn't going to affect the round at the distances you would normally want to use a pistol.

stratus
June 14, 2006, 04:50 PM
But, within the context of this thread and the original question - my answer is that a 30-degree cant or so isn't going to affect the round at the distances you would normally want to use a pistol.
Nuff said. These are all relevant arguments, but they don't apply to this thread, really.

5whiskey
June 15, 2006, 06:42 PM
It's obvious you both understand the concept and are basically saying the same thing, just choosing a different way to say it which is a communication failure. Anyhoo, yes, canting any firearm will cause the strike of the round to pull low and to the left or right. That's why I have a mini level on my rifle.

However, If you are so good with a pistol that you can hit targets far enough so precisely that the cant will actually throw your impact off in a consistant group (with a consistant cant, of course) then you are far better than I will ever be able to comprehend. Look up the drop of a .45 acp round at 50 yds at federals website. It's around 4" or something. The cant of a weapon does throw off the strike of the round but that's getting taken out of context. I know I'm not very precise at 50 yds, I'm certainly not holding groups that will be affected drastically by canting the pistol. The point is, by the time what you both are talking about would really matter you're already beyond the max effective range of a pistol anyway.

I think we're talking more of a low profile technique to shoot over a barricade at a normal engagement range for a pistol, say 30' or so. At this range I don't think canting will throw the strike of the round off enough to miss center mass.

Now, I'm not trying to defend canting a pistol. I'm certainly not gonna speak much for gangsta-style, because I think it's BS. However, it could be a tool used for what blackwater said, MAYBE to keep a low profile while shooting over a barrier. MAYBE. I'm pretty sure I won't be doing it.

Maser
June 15, 2006, 07:03 PM
I shoot handguns sideways at ranges all the time and nobody seems to care. Mostly because i'm actually hitting what i'm aiming at. Or should I say pointing at. I think shooting sideways if more of an efficient way of shooting if you have a small full auto gun. I once shot a Micro Uzi with a laser sight sideways and it seemed to be more easily controlable than shooting it normally with one hand.

Harley Quinn
June 15, 2006, 07:18 PM
I invite you to the Northern Ca area and come to the "Gun Room" and we can shoot as many rounds and guns as you want. Hand gun is the name of the game or nothing larger than the M1 Carbine, Shotguns are ok.:)

This range is indoor and goes out to 25 yds. We can set up some standard bullseye or ??? Hey, lets make a friendly wager. You shoot your canted style up side down or what ever. "Winner get's Dinner" at Mimis. :D

HQ

Blackwater OPS
June 16, 2006, 01:57 AM
This range is indoor and goes out to 25 yds. We can set up some standard bullseye or ??? Hey, lets make a friendly wager. You shoot your canted style up side down or what ever. "Winner get's Dinner" at Mimis.

Deal, next time I'm up there.

Course of fire will be:


12 shots in 10 seconds (or 10 in 8 if you have low-cap) shot from the kneeling position over the barricade(or table/rest/whatever they have

12 shots in 10 seconds (or 10 in 8 if you have low-cap) shot while facing 90 degrees away from the target (strong side away)

Scores will be evenly weighted between the two shoots. Pistol must stock(more or less) and in a SD caliber(9mm, .40, .45 10mm)

Target will be a 5 ring at 21 feet.

You shoot uncanted, I will cant. Winner gets dinner, and more importantly the right to say I told you so.

Results will be posted here. :)

Harley Quinn
June 16, 2006, 08:44 AM
Training starts today, I have all the above, will probably go with the glocks.
I usually don't use rests, but hey.

Looking forward to it, I am not a rapid firing kind of guy but have done it in the past. This range does not allow to much stuff like double tap but I will talk to them.

We can make it interesting shoot both left and right handed and then both hands. Standing or kneeling makes no difference. I personally like the horse stance.

HQ:)

Dust_Devil
June 17, 2006, 01:57 PM
While shooting a gun by holding it sideways is not the first, the best and preferred metheod, you probably never been in a gun fight or never really thought about all the scenerios that could happen in a gun fight where you may just have to hold your gun sideways because of your body position, to keep a low profile or needing to use your weak hand.
Holding you gun in that perfect weaver stance and grip or whatever may look good on paper or in a competition, but in the heat of a real battle, you may just not be able to get in that perfect stance with that perfect grip nor even be able to use your sights to aim.

Holding your gun sideways while behind a ballistic shield is a common practice as shown here.
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/6789/swat0of.jpg

Blackwater OPS
June 17, 2006, 02:20 PM
While shooting a gun by holding it sideways is not the first, the best and preferred metheod, you probably never been in a gun fight or never really thought about all the scenerios that could happen in a gun fight where you may just have to hold your gun sideways because of your body position, to keep a low profile or needing to use your weak hand.
Holding you gun in that perfect weaver stance and grip or whatever may look good on paper or in a competition, but in the heat of a real battle, you may just not be able to get in that perfect stance with that perfect grip nor even be able to use your sights to aim.

Exactly.

HQ, I'm looking forward to our match:)

Harley Quinn
June 17, 2006, 03:02 PM
But it is still not the gangsta style, we see in the movies and yes we can cant, and we can shoot upside down if need be. But it is like walking, or running, the form is what helps win the race. Easyist on the body.

One of the reasons the 45 Govt model is hard to handle is the wrong twist until you spend many hours of training.:D

HQ

Hedley
June 17, 2006, 03:47 PM
haha...just saw this thread and had to post about my range experience last night. I was there, plinking the 100 yd indoor target when this rough looking guy and his skanky girlfriend set up next to me with his .45. While I was loading some stripper clips, I overheard him tell his girlfriend to "hold it like 'dis too keep it from jammin' up..." lol, he had the gun at damn near horizontal. Then, after he loaded up, he moved to target out to, oh, about 4 feet, and just started spraying lead. At first I thought he was just trying to show off, but he did this for about 100rds! He never moved it out more than a yd. It was hilarious. I have never seen someone go to a pistol range to target practice at point blank range. What was even funnier, was that his tiny little girlfriend shot all 8's. 9's and 10's. We were all looking at that silly target the whole time trying to hold back the laughter. This dude looked like he had been around. The only thing he said to me and my SKS was, "Yo, I didn't know they made wooden Tec-9's. That's old school."

PressCheck
June 18, 2006, 12:32 PM
When shooting weak-hand-only, it can sometimes help to cant the gun slightly so your dominant eye can get a decent sight picture. Canting does not make the holding position turn into "gangsta" style. It is only slight.

Correct!

stratus
June 18, 2006, 06:41 PM
But it is still not the gangsta style, we see in the movies and yes we can cant, and we can shoot upside down if need be. But it is like walking, or running, the form is what helps win the race. Easyist on the body.
There, now the thread is back to some threshold of sanity.

Gangsta style is when someone holds the gun at a 90 degree cant, and tilts their wrist forward at an angle as well (holding the gun above eye level and to the side) for NO REASON. Not because they need to but because it's a "style". The style of the gangstas. Bust a cap, yo.

What Blackwater is talking about is not gangsta style at all, but a method of shooting that came about due to necessity in certain combat conditions.

So, we're closer to agreement. :)

SrtDog
June 19, 2006, 10:06 PM
:rolleyes: He's that same Private in the Army who went to the 1SG and asked where he could find a Prick E-8. And the next day went to supply to sign out a box of grid squares.