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DasBoot
June 4, 2006, 10:58 AM
Many replies regarding what to use in the event of a home invasion favor the use of a shotgun.
Why?
One pro...the BG MIGHT hear you crank a round into the chamber.
That's good.
He might NOT hear it also.
Another pro.....far more area covered upon releasing a shot.
Also good.
One more.....the sheer visual intimidation of a 12g pointed in his direction might make for a hasty retreat.
However, me personally, I don't think I would be comfortable OR as effective sneaking about in the dark, through doorways and around corners, with a 3ft+ weapon in my hands.
What do I do when I round a corner and come face to face with this bum?
Let one go into the ceiling?
And if I'm pointing it straight ahead, it can be grabbed and used against me.
What if I have to swing around suddenly in a narrow space?
Too many negative possibilities for me.
If I can see the BG(s) and/or I have time to get into a defensive position I might opt for a SG, but in the dark, around the house, I'll stick w/a handgun.
If I'm missing something, please educate me.
Just my 2 cents.:cool:

281 Quad Cam
June 4, 2006, 11:13 AM
If I were you I would keep the HD shotgun "Cranked" and loaded.

I would not make a sound outside of flicking the safety off.
While I have heard stories of the sound of a racking shotgun scaring off criminals... I would not throw away all sense of reason and logic for these stories.

THE REASON PEOPLE LIKE SHOTGUNS FOR HOME DEFENSE. Has nothing to do with sounds or shot patterns... It has everything to do with stopping power. Stopping power may not exist for handguns, and it may be somewhat elusive with rifle calibres. But a 12 guage shotgun is the beginning of the realm where you can feel confident that 1 or 2 decent hits will stop any human being.

Sneaking around the house? You may want to largely re-think your plan. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that either. I would guard an area which gave me an advantage. If you have children on the other side of the house, I can see the issue, otherwise... try not to pull any Rambo junk.

In the end you'll just have to pick what gun works best for your situation in your house. But the shotgun is one of the only weapon that can be called an "attack stopper" with any degree of confidence.

brickeyee
June 4, 2006, 12:47 PM
Shot spread at typical 'in house' distances is not very large at all.
Smaller shot (BB or so) at close range remains bunched and can deliver a hell of a wound.
The biggest problem is moving around in a confined space with a weapon with a minimum barrel length of 18 inches.

DasBoot
June 4, 2006, 12:52 PM
I do have a child at the other end of the house.
So, if I hear unfamiliar sounds/noises, that's the first direction I'm heading in.

Dwight55
June 4, 2006, 01:33 PM
DasBoot, . . . the HD shotgun is simply for stopping power. At HD distances, you are shooting a column of lead that is not going to spread more than a few inches at best, and in most circumstances, . . . just make one huge wound.

Very few individuals survive a COM shot from a 12ga at less than 20 feet, whether it is #6 bird shot or 00 buck or slug, . . . too much damage will be done, . . . and if it is two shots, . . . the guy will need a preacher, priest, or rabbi instead of a surgeon.

Stay in your room, . . . call the cops, . . . let them do what they get paid for. Tell them where you are, . . . where your child is, . . . and that you believe the intruder is ______________________ .

May god bless,
Dwight

45-70
June 4, 2006, 01:42 PM
In addition, just about everyone can hit better with a long gun than a handgun.

Someone is going to take it away from you? Well, you have the handle part, and they have the business end. The first thing I will do with my 12-guage when someone tries to grab it, is jam it into their face, then I if got no face contact, I'll pull back on the handle part real hard. If they don't let go, where are they? Arms out in front of them, staring down the business end, which, believe me, is just about to go BOOM. If they let go, they are now the perfect target. It's even more likely to be fun for you if you are using a semi-auto, 'cause you can make it go boom more often.

But don't believe the part about the load spreading out at across-the-room distances. It usually won't. Pattern your shot gun at the distances in your house. You probably will have a hard time finding a pattern more than 3-4 inches, depending on the size of your "castle." Even 1 or 2 inches may be the most in a lot of rooms.

Para Bellum
June 4, 2006, 01:42 PM
Another pro.....far more area covered upon releasing a shot.
Also good.
wrong. go to the range and test the patterns. The spread with 00 Buck ist about 10cm (4") every 10m (10yds)

One more.....the sheer visual intimidation of a 12g pointed in his direction might make for a hasty retreat.
So you think that any invader would be less scared by a .22 barrel?
If a .22 doesn't scare you, a 12ga won't either. IMHO relying on the scaring look of a gun is just not using a gun properly.

And IMHO a .223 semiauto rifle with M193, TAP or Federal 223T3 ammo is what's best for home defense. Good terminal ballistics, no overpenetration, fast follow-ups and surgical accuracy. Just imagine only one pellet from your shotgun ovepenetrating, hitting a family member or neighbor...

leadcounsel
June 4, 2006, 01:52 PM
Like any tool, you have to choose the right tool for the job. In the arena of home defense as the job, everybody's situation is different.

While I agree that carbines and shotguns are great for home defense they aren't always the perfect weapon. Often a handgun serves as a better tool. Handguns are more agile in confined places (small apartments, hallways with doors on either side, etc.) and allow the manipulation of other things with a persons free hand (light switches, phones, picking up small kids or pets, opening a window to escape, locking a door, etc.).

But, using a handgun assumes you need to be "clearing your house" so to speak. Unless absolutely necessary (such as going to protect little Johnny and Susy), I think it's a huge mistake.

Most people agree that the BEST tactic to use if you have a home invasion is to barricade yourself in a single room, train your weapon on the door, and call the police. In this instance, rapid and powerful firepower is ideal. The shotgun serves this purpose well. There's no maneuvering through tight corners or other stuff.

Edited to add:

Guns should be determined for use based on their qualities such as stopping power, reliability, ease of use, etc. but NOT on their scary appearance or the sound they make when you "cock" or "rack" a shell. Don't count on "scaring" the bad guy. While you're cocking your weapon he may be shooting you dead.

MY personal home defense weapon is the handgun for speed and ease and reliablity. It stays hidden in the nightstand and is accessable immediately with one hand. I can easily check on suspect noises in the night that don't sound like a burglar, but I won't sleep well unless I check and I'm not going to call the police for a small noise. However, if the noise turns out to be not-so-innocent, then I'm barricading myself in my room and getting the shotgun or AR15 out and calling the police.

281 Quad Cam
June 4, 2006, 02:13 PM
I used to have a Remington 870 under the bed.

Now i have an AR-15 16"

Small package with more capacity... But definatly less power.

Honestly I didn't think long and hard about it, and now I wonder if I should have kept the shotgun... But from what I hear .223 is good because it penetrates less than most rifles indoors. And a good .223 defense load will fragment reliably.

ddskehan
June 4, 2006, 06:10 PM
I also have a child across my house. If someone comes in, that's where i'm going. not because i'm brave, but because of her. I use a glock 27, but my wife will be behind me with the 870 full of buckshot. The reason I carry a sub glock is because of a shotguns length. I live in massachusetts and my house is full of small rooms and corridors. If the BG got a hold of the barrel on the shotgun your screwed. open floor plans like in the south are best IMO for shotguns. Small cramped houses I would go with a pistol. It's all about the enviroment your in. I won't be clearing my house with the pistol. Just going to my daughters room. search and destroy i'll leave to the police. I was in the Army and I no longer want to do the search part.

duck911
June 4, 2006, 06:29 PM
It's been touched on, but here's my .02:

1) DO NOT rack the slide on your shotgun. First, a round should already be loaded in the chamber. Second, you will lose your element of surprise. The noise may simply serve to alert the BG to your location.

2) As discussed, no sneaking around the house! (to check on kids may be one exception). Barracade youself and call 911. If you really want to be situationally prepared, you should always have a cell phone along with a home phone in your room. This way, if the BG takes the home phone receiver off the hook downstairs or in the next room, you can still call 911.

In short, if you know there is an invader, hide in a strong defensive position, call 911, and be ready to shoot.

ps- I'd much prefer a pump shotgun to semi-auto one in this scenario :)

Bill DeShivs
June 4, 2006, 08:39 PM
I have cut clean 1/4" holes in 1/4" steel plate at 20 feet with a .223. The bullets exited with enough force to ruin a brick wall behind the plate. Unless using frangible ammunition, the .223 is not a good choice if overpenetration is an issue.
Bill

281 Quad Cam
June 4, 2006, 10:05 PM
I have cut clean 1/4" holes in 1/4" steel plate at 20 feet with a .223. The bullets exited with enough force to ruin a brick wall behind the plate. Unless using frangible ammunition, the .223 is not a good choice if overpenetration is an issue.
Bill

What loading?

A 62gr M855 and a 55gr are different animals... Some civilian defense rounds with lower weights are even more likely to keyhole and be stopped by a few walls.

Bill DeShivs
June 5, 2006, 01:53 AM
I don't remember. It was in 1974-75. All I know is we used the steel plate in the basement of the gunshop to stop .38 wadcutters. When the shop got an AR 180 in, we snuck down there one night and shot a couple of mags at a silhouette target taped to the plate. The next day the owner discovered the damage. I saw the plate, and the damage to the brick wall behind it looked like someone had been hitting the wall with a pickaxe.
I still think .223 is way too overpenetrative in an urban scenario.
Bill

guntotin_fool
June 5, 2006, 02:19 AM
well a few points to ponder.


A "lite" shotgun load of 1 oz has 435 grains of lead going out the barrel. at about 1400 FPS. A .223 out of a 16 inch barrel is most likely 62 gr at 2400 fps. A 12 ga buckshot load of OO buck is, I believe, 9 .30 cal diam lead balls, with a total wieght of 1 3/8 oz. or approx 600 grains of lead leaving the barrel at about 1250 Fps. This very nearly equals ALL FIVE shots from a j frame loaded with 125 grainers of +P 38 ammo all at the same time, with 4, 5, or more instant reloads waiting.

What stops people from continuing a fight are hits to the CNS or loss of blood or breakdowns in the skeletal system severe enough to supprt further offensive attacks. Frontal shotguns blasts have a very good chance of reaching the CNS. Launch a load of buckshot at a standing person and odds greatly increase that you will hit the spinal column with one pellet with enough force to disrupt bodily actions. IF not, you will present enough aeration of the body as to increase the speed of exinguination or bleed out..
Finally if you can do that, and you hit lower, most likely you can create a breakdown of eitheer the pelvic structure or hips or break a thigh bone which will prevent the BG from pressing on his attack to you. slugs will lower the number of preforations one makes with each shot, but instead of 3/8 or smaller holes, the holes are now 7/8 or so in diameter.

leadcounsel
June 5, 2006, 02:27 AM
Any effective defensive load in any caliber is bound to overpenetrate common things like drywall, windows, house doors, etc. You need to be aware of this and just account for every shot.

Handgun rounds punch through walls just like slugs, .223, buckshot, etc.

For an interesting study of what ammo does to walls, see this site: Ammo routinely punches through mutliple layers of drywall.

www.boxotruth.com

dctag
June 5, 2006, 11:10 AM
Erick of course is right on. Everyone who thinks they know how a shotgun patterns should go buy some butcher paper and head to the range to pattern it. Most of you will be surprised how little the spread is in an indoors situation. Pattern your gun with your defense loads every five yards out to 30 yards or so and you will know your shotguns abilities. If you have let Hans Vang sell you a barrel you might pattern it out farther. Also find out how to shoot slugs. Basically practice, practice, and practice some more.

The shotgun is a very misunderstood weapon and I would hope that whenever you get the chance that you take some training. Last year I took a Rob Haught shotgun class put on by 10-8 and it was excellent. I improved a ton and learned a lot about the capabilities and handicaps of the shotgun.

-David

Mannlicher
June 9, 2006, 05:26 PM
As some have opined, one of the most talked about things in firearms BBS forums is the biz of 'the sound of racking a shell into your 12 ga'.
I have always thought this was a bad idea. Its not prudent to let an intruder know where you are, or what your status is. Letting him get close enough to be intimidated by the size of your johnson is not prudent either.
I prefer a platform other than a shotty for Close encounters, and I darn sure would not advertise where I was, what I was armed with or what my intentions were.
In FL, if he is in my house, uninvited, in the middle of the night, its my decision as to what happens.
Don't obsess over all the boogymen of firearms forums. Over penetration, what load will get you in trouble, to shoot or not to shoot, are all much discussed issues. In the end, you need to decide what works best for you. In time of extreme need, none of the guys here will be by your side to back you up.

garryc
June 9, 2006, 07:35 PM
As far as the length of the shotgun, it is not really an issue. I could disarm someone much easier if they have a handgun rather than a properly deployed shotgun. That butt stock acts as an anchor when its tucked under the arm pit. If a scum bag grabs it from the side you simply pivot on his hand and nail him.

ATW525
June 13, 2006, 11:54 AM
What do I do when I round a corner and come face to face with this bum?
Let one go into the ceiling?

Is there a reason you'd carry it with the muzzle pointing towards the ceiling? A muzzle down carry tends to be harder to block and even if they do grab it you have a good chance of being to let one go into their lower extremities.

ddelange
June 18, 2006, 03:47 AM
I recently retired my 12ga Moss 590A1, with a SureFire tac light forend as my primary home defense weapon, in favor of a Colt M4, fitted with a SureFire Millenium vertical grip/tactical light (I'm still taking hell from my wife for dishing out $800 for a LIGHT -- she's right, I must be mad), and an Aimpoint sight. However, for me the decreased weight of the M4 makes a huge difference because in a home invasion scenario, I would have to leave my room to protect the kids upstairs. Lugging the shotgun around at low ready, and going from room to room takes a physical toll on mortals like me. I also find the M4 more versatile and easy to use when navigating close quarters.

Finally, because the #1 Buck I kept loaded in the tube will really only make a rathole sized wound channel through the BG at close distances; I feel fine relying on 5.56mm NATO FMJ 55gr M193, which will enter, break apart at the cannuler and rotate through the torso. The rear of bullet fragments into the temporary cavity, causing severe damage to vital organs/arteries that will cause massive bleeding. Although denigrated by some on the list in many threads currently running, I'm fully confident with the 5.56mm NATO's lethality (nearly the equal of a 12ga at home invasion ranges) in close ranges, as well as in the field at up to 200m for me.

I use to be on an email list where Greg Hamilton was a regular contributor. One of the biggest flame wars was SG vs. AR15 shorty/M4 for home defense. He is certainly one of the best in terms of tactical ability and knowledge. It was that debate where his comments began to sink in that maybe I could defend my home better, considering my abilities and needs, than my SG. I've finally taken his route by going with the M4 (after the sunset of the AWB) for primary home defense weapon. However, I, and nobody on the list should feel underarmed with a SG as long as you're trained with its use and are aware of its limitations.

I would be interested in knowing what firearm (handgun or long gun), if any, people would take to go investigate a bump in the night, or broken glass. . . . sounds like a good poll question.

Topthis
June 18, 2006, 04:07 AM
Don't own a Shotgun, but for HD...there is no doubt that I would rather have a 12ga than any and all of my handguns combined...hmmmm, I guess then I should go out and buy me one.

wolfdog45
June 18, 2006, 06:19 AM
I believe that the home owner should study his/her house and know every room and distance that the hallway's are and where all window's are also.
Then if the home owner uses a shotgun he/she should practice manuvering around in the house with it (unloaded of course).
If you are trained correctly on how to use a HD shotgun you will not have to worry about the intruder getting your weapon and using it against you.
Also you need to know where the window's are at all times even if the lights are off and you cannot see where they are look around your house download everything that is in your house into your brain, Like ok the chair is over there and the window is beside the chair on the left. If you have the layout of your house memorized you will be able to manuver around and not worry about running into any thing. The home owner should alway's know the layout of his/her home because the BG does not know it like the owner does.
Presuming that the intruder has been in the house before which is highly unlikely. Commenly the intruder has never been in the house so therefore you automatically have the advantage.
Even if the intruder at some point in time had ever been in your house you still have the advantage. The reason I mention that the intruder may have been in your house before is because that happened to a close friend of mine. He had a local furniture store deliver some furniture to his house one of the deliveres was eyeballing the place, That same guy came back about a week later and broke into my friends house, My friend heard the break in and grabbed his shotgun and called 911 ,the intruder (drunk and high on drugs) in the mean time fell over the couch he had delivered a week before and fell to the floor my friend held him at gun point till the cops arrived. The BG thought the couch was going to be where him and his deliverer partner had left it when they brought it out to my friends house. That goes to show that you need to know the layout of your home no matter what.

U.S.SFC_RET
June 20, 2006, 06:09 PM
+1 to wolfdog45
I totally agree. Know your own house.
It's the stuff between the ears that we should be debating.:D

ddelange
June 20, 2006, 07:33 PM
+1 to wolfdog45 as well.

I'll only add that I think if one chooses a SG, or any carbine or long gun, for home defense, it should be equipped with a tactical light. It's just as important as a hand held tac light for those who rely on a handgun for home defense. You absolutely need to I.D. your target before you aim a SG, or shoot it at an intruder. It'd be a tragedy to shoot that drunk home invader in the dark, only to find out it's your wayward teenage son who decided to sneak out of the house and come back into the house much later in the evening, knocking things over and sounding like an intruder.

In Arizona, we have a strong Castle Law, so I can legally use lethal force against a home invader because the law presumes I'm acting in self-defense. However, I am still going to light em up before I decide to shoot/don't shoot.

PPCLI 2 can.
June 21, 2006, 12:25 AM
i was shot in a small house while serving in serbia in 92. the hostile had a
9mm hand gun and he shot me as i came in to clear a laundry / food storage room at 6 feet away he shot at my head and hit me twice in the left forearm.
if this had been a shotgun id be dead. instead i have two quarter sized scars through my forearm and either than the odd itchy spell youd never know.
the reason i say this is that these are the circumstances in your home- close proximity as well as you have to act fast.
yet in your home invasion scenario i hope the intruder is not backed by 4 angry canuck grunts llike i was, who put about 20 7.62 nato rounds through him.
this is why i have a big dog and a bigger shotgun.

guntotin_fool
June 21, 2006, 12:51 AM
To those who say a AR platform is better than a SG for HD.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BODY HIT BY A TWELVE GAUGE UP CLOSE?

I have my best friend currently serving in Fallujah as a Navy Medic attached to Team Green. Last week or so, he had the opportunity to patch up a BG who had shot a couple of marines while taking NINE hits from M4's. 7 of the hits were torso. The other two were one to the thigh and one to the upper arm. It was the thigh hit breaking his femur that put BG on the ground. Not the three in the belly or two in the lungs or two near the braxial artery in his shoulder. All of the shots fired were in a alley at bad breath distances. He was seriously upset at the lack of damage done to the bad guy, saying that almost all the hits looked like a drill press had just run a 3/16 inch drill bit thru him, with minimal trauma in the surrounding tissues.

I have had the misfortune of seeing 3 bodies and one living being after being shot with a 12 gauge. 2 were suicides, one was a hunting accident and another was a robbery result. One suicide was a rigged gun and a shot to the chest, A large gapping wound your whole arm could fit in. The other suicide was a head shot, what was left of the head was some tissue that flopped around. The hunting accident was a loaded gun set down in a row boat and somehow the dog either stepped on the trigger or moved the gun so its trigger came to rest against another gun and was discharged. That man had a GAPING wound where his left kidney and intestines were. He survived, uses a colostomy bag and can not drink much with only one kidney and part of a liver left. The robbery victim shot at a few feet by the second guy in the door after he thought it was taking too long. Two loads of 12 gauge, one arm hanging by some skin and another massive hole in the chest and rib area.

At house-hold ranges maybe a Thompson would be better, but NO WAY a AR is better.

Jeepmark2005
June 21, 2006, 01:30 AM
While responding to a shots fired call I had the oportunity to see the result of a negligent discharge shotgun wound. A man carrying a long barreled 12ga loaded with bird shot was going to shoot a cat that was herassing his duck of all things. He slipped and fell backwards. He was carrying the shotgun in his right hand and instintively raised his arms when he fell. The shotgun discharged while pointed at his right calf.

The calf muscle was completely gone as was the back half of the bone. Amazingly they were able to save his leg although he will always have a limp. The distruction from even bird shot in this case at extremely close range was devistating. Birdshot is a poor choice for defense because it losses it's power VERY quickly but this deminstrated the power of a shotgun to me. Never underestimate one.

ddelange
June 21, 2006, 01:50 AM
To those who say a AR platform is better than a SG for HD. . . . but NO WAY a AR is better.

I've seen both type of wounds. A SG is deadly, and a formidable home defense weapon. However, in my situation, I have a large house and kids to protect. Clearing a house alone is stupid, but if anyone started busting the door down I'd have to do it. I've always kept my Mossberg 12ga ready for the task, until I started taking some training in going from room to room. The M4's weight, size, versatility, and firepower give it other advantages when dynamic room clearing must be accomplished. I agree that the wound cavity of 5.56mm NATO would not equal one round of the 12 guage #1 Buck I have ready in my SG; however, I must contemplate other scenarios: multiple targets = rapid acquisition and engagement of two or more; in that scenario the M4 is better. I'm not going to argue the terminal ballistics of one 5.56mm NATO M193 55gr are going to be better than one shot of 12 ga. #1. But I can fire 4 aimed shots at two attackers in the time it takes me to fire my SG, pump it, and reengage the same or next attacker. . . . or put 6 rounds into the same attacker in the time it takes to put the second 12ga shells of buckshot into the target.

I've seen the terminal ballistics results of both, and contrary to all the noise on this site, and other places, the 5.56mm NATO round, with the right bullet, is a human killer. I've seen it. I've talked to soldiers who've seen it. I've talked to military autopsy technicians in the Army that have seen it.

It's all a tradeoff, and I'll say that the job of home defense can be adequately done with either, depending upon what your circumstances are. Before I had kids, I would stick with my shotgun all the way, stay barricaded in our bedroom, and call 911. I don't have that luxury now; and having had training with both, I choose an M4 for my specific home defense needs: moving quickly to block intruders from the upstairs where the children are, and being able to engage and fire multiple shots at multiple attackers.

Don't take my statements above to say that an M4 is superior for home defense; only that it is a valid option for individuals who have different, often very dynamic homes to defend. If you don't believe me, have a chat with Greg Hamilton of Insights Training, a strong believer in AR/M4's for home defense.

joneb
June 21, 2006, 02:48 AM
As already stated, clear your house with the muzzle down, load with #1 buck.
I never keep one in the tube of my 12 ga. Nor do I sleep with a grenade under my pillow with the pin pulled, but that's just me :) in another life things might be different.

bermo61
June 21, 2006, 03:30 AM
Ok here is another take on the shotgun argument.

1. stopping power...huge! The energy delivered in a 12 guage blast is massive

2. Low penetration...less likely to penetrate walls and kill loved ones because the energy diminishes so rapidly

3. Under stress you can be less accurate and still deliver a crippling shot

4. Intimidating..you bet.


I love my handguns and use those for home defense but the shotgun is a good choice also. A rifle caliber is way too powerful in terms of penetration and might land you in jail if you accidently kill someone due to over penetration....not fun.

Long Path
June 21, 2006, 06:03 AM
While the shotgun is an amazing tool in terms of stopping power, it holds a lot of drawbacks for home defense, too:

The shotgun is very large, and requires a lot of physical training to effectively round corners without risking the gun being grabbed or deflected.

The shotgun usually has a fairly low capacity, and is generally slower to engage multiple targets, either due to the action, recoil, or both.

The shotgun is often over-estimated, and under-estimated: People over-estimate the spread ("You can clear a room with the spread!" or "You don't even need to aim it!" are often heard), and under-estimate the penetration of their shot (especially buckshot).

Because of perceived recoil and perceived super-power effectiveness of the shotgun, most homeowners who keep one won't practice with it.

But the biggest problem with a shotgun for home defense is simply this: it gets left in the closet when a knock at the door is heard. Because of its size, the shotgun is not kept as handy as a mid-sized handgun. While a 4" M10 can be quietly dropped back into the pocket of a robe once you've established that the knock at the door wasn't a threat, the shotgun that you've picked up has to be dealt with in a more obvious manner, and most folks are too embarrassed or lazy to do this. Also, it's difficult to operate most shotguns one-handed, which renders it useless during the most dangerous times.

While shotguns are extremely effective, a good mid-sized pistol in a major caliber is going to be of more use when keeping the homestead safe.

Odd Job
June 21, 2006, 10:30 AM
I was lucky enough to have specialized training in the handling of 12 gauge pump action shotguns by a member of the SAPS Flying Squad. The shotgun course was two days. The first day was held at a secluded range with a 'house' made of tyres. In the various 'rooms' cardboard cutouts were placed so we could practice rounding corners, point-while-reload, and generally get a basic feel for shooting in confined spaces while offering the least possible profile to any potential aggressors.

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Shotgun.jpg

Note that pistols were compulsory on the course because we practised transitioning to those upon two blows of the whistle. Afterwards we engaged the same targets with pistols only.
My feeling is this: I would be more than comfortable with a shotgun for home defense. I wouldn't be looking to assault like we did on the course, I would be looking to defend and I reckon that I would be a handful to take down if I had that shotgun. The premise is that the pistol is there as a backup. It would be available because in SA I wear that all the time IWB. In a home situation I would probably have the pistol at hand before I got the shotgun out.
If I was forced to come out of my safe area and someone tried to relieve me of that shotgun, well things would get interesting. I think he is going to have a hard time getting it off me because I'll pull the trigger regardless. If he still wants it (or has it) after that, he can take it. By the time he has turned it around and definitely before he has pumped it, I'll have the 9mm in hand...
Anyway that is my take on this based on my limited experience in a non-stressful situation. Under stress the rules could change, but in the lead-up to whatever happens I would choose the shotgun without hesitation.

We also did a course involving rifles and the 'assault rifle' component of that course was done with an R5 rifle, which is a 5.56mm Galil derivative. We fired that on semi-auto and auto, stationary and moving. Now if I was outside that is what I would take if I could choose between that and the shotgun, but not inside. I like the R5, I really do, but at the end of the day a close range shotgun injury with what we call SSG or SG is likely to be more destructive to the assailant than an R5 round (or even a few R5 rounds) all other factors being equal.
I have a great deal of respect for shotguns as I have seen several 12 gauge wounds in reality. But the thing that sells it for me is this: put yourself in the assailant's shoes. You have just broken in to someone's house. You are hoping he is not there, but suddenly you realise he is. What is going to make you 'pucker' more, the thought that he has a shotgun or the thought that he has an 'assault rifle?'

Harley Quinn
June 21, 2006, 11:06 AM
When you know what they are all about, they are the weapon of choice for a person who wants to protect his or her house. IMHO.

Problem: even those who think they are knowlegeable in the game of self defense must also be knowledgeable in: when, where, and why.

Emotions are a terrible thing, and one of the leading cause, of bad shootings, and deaths in family homes. (not the bad guy either).

Das Boot enough of this gun stuff how about that safe <8->)

HQ:(

Jeepmark2005
June 21, 2006, 11:33 AM
I just want to repeat what was clearly demonstrated on the box o' truth web site. Bird shot is for little birdies and buck shot is for defense. If you are buying a load that is light enough to not go thru a wall then how will it have the strength to go thru a BG ? The shot does not pick what to go thru and what not to. IF you use a shotgun for defense - select 00 buck, 000 buck or slugs depending on your tactical situation. The shotgun is not the answer. It is a choice depending on your situation. I answer a knock at the door with a .45 behind my leg out of sight. I use a shotgun as a barricade gun or when a high lever of force is needed on a single exposed target such as a subject refusing to surrender a knife in an open area or covering another officer deploying a less lethal weapon. When clearing a house or apartment I select my AR and .45 . The AR is good in tight quarters and can be fired rapidly on one or multiple targets. With a shotgun I am more likely to fire a single round and pump the action while observing the effect where as with the AR I continue to engage a single target until the threat is stopped (Multiple rounds). Ultimately you must make your own choice because there is no definitive right answer. The right answer is the one the results in you winning a gun fight. The ends justify the means. No particular gun guarantees you anything. Training and practice only increase your odds as does the right gun for the situation.

ddelange
June 21, 2006, 09:27 PM
While shotguns are extremely effective, a good mid-sized pistol in a major caliber is going to be of more use when keeping the homestead safe.

I must respectfully disagree with your characterization that a pistol is going to be of "more use".

In the words of, I believe, Jeff Cooper: "a pistol should only be used to fight your way to your long gun."

A pistol certainly has its role in the toolbox of home defense tools, but it certainly isn't the tool of "more" or best use. I still advocate that any homeowner concerned with serious self defense needs either a shotgun, or a carbine (along with some professional training) in order to be ready for the multitude of contingencies that can develop during a home invasion. A cell phone, tactical light, and pistol are the first three tools that should go in the box. From there, I definitely suggest a SG or AR/M4, depending on the homeowner's circumstances.

guntotin_fool
June 22, 2006, 02:09 AM
I must respectfully disagree with alot that has been said here.

Speed, A shot gun in the hands of a experienced user is just as fast as a M4 user in addressing mulitple targets, and just as fast in putting aimed shots on a target. I have twice hit triples on rising quail. I have hit a lot of doubles in pheasants, grouse, and ducks, and many many more in skeet and sporting clays. I often shoot with a guy who can hit 7 hand tossed clay targets before they hit the ground. That sounds like a machine gun going off and he shoots a 1300 winchester. A properly fitted shotgun is the most intuitive weapon now available I believe. When I pull it up, where I look it hits. There is no aiming consciously done...it becomes "Bird!" "bang!"

Size The 870 with a 13 inch pull stock and a 18 in barrel and a two shot tube ext is just two inches at most longer than a M4, Not very massive by comparison.

Weight Might weigh another pound more. Two inches and a pound, does not make the M4 that much better. If you have a AR with a A2 stock and a 20 inch barrel, you are out to about 42 inches in length vers about 37 for the 870. Add a second mag taped to the m4 and the weights are a toss.

effects, Load a 5.56 with any load you can name, and at 0 to 7 yards the shot gun will beat it EVERY time. If we were allowed the happy switch with the 3 shot burst, it might MIGHT compare.

Distances. I build houses for a living. VERY few houses built today or at any time that we are likley to be living in, will have more than a 40 foot clear shot any where in the home. 13 yards. Less than twelve by the time you add barrel lenght to the equation. Next time you get to shoot at a range that lets you try things, pace out 13 yards and stick some objects out there to shoot up. Remember that 0-5 yards shotgun loads are pretty much still a single mass. From 5 yards to 30 yards with a cylinder bore, expansion is about 1 inch in spread for every yard of length. At 13 yards that means an 8 inch spread or pattern with 9 buckshot inside that 8 inches. If you load as a candy stripe load, (buck/slug/buck etc) the next shot will drive a 3/4 inch hole right thru him with the second buck shot load now making it 19 holes in the bad guy. In less than a second, verses maybe 3 5.56 holes from your AR?

recoil. I hardly ever feel the gun go off when shooting at birds or clays. If you shoot one, you deal with it. With a shottie that fits you and proper basics, you can dump all 7 down range in a heartbeat. I have a good freind who has the new tactical 1100 from remington with the 22 inch barrel and the plus 4 tube on it... 9 rounds of 12 guage as fast your index finger can go...

Reliability. Mine have shot in dusty windblown fields, blazing hot trap and skeet lines. in the dead of winter. covered with crap from bull dozing our way thru thickets and sloughs looking for birds, Iced over from freezing rain in the deer stands. EVERY SINGLE TIME I HAVE PULLED THE TRIGGER ON AN 870, ANY 870, IT HAS GONE BANG.

One handed. three falls ago I managed to blow a framing nail thru my hand. crushing the capitate and the metacarple of my naughty finger in my left hand. I hunted just as many days using my 870 and my 39 ithaca buy using the "yank rack and shove' method or the thigh slap method of operating a smooth slide with one hand. I was amazed at how fast i became at follow up shots after just a couple of episodes at the sporting clays range.

In my house I am keeping my family safe. I am not clearing the building, the dog or the cops will do that. I am making sure that NO ONE can sneak/break in and reach my kids. I really wish I had a flash bang or a real grenade if someone tried to come up the stairs and attack us...If i could get a 7.62 like a short para Cetme or a nice para FN FAL I might see using that. but in reality, shotgun first, maybe a .45 grease gun or a thomspson......

U.S.SFC_RET
June 22, 2006, 06:08 AM
PPCLI 2 CAN you indicated in a prior post that you were in the Army. If you were in the Army you couldn't have served in Serbia because there was no American persence in Serbia in 1992. The U.S Army didn't roll into Bosnia-Herzegovina until Jan 1996. Are you sure that you weren't shot at in 1996? Where in Serbia were you shot at?

Renfield
June 22, 2006, 06:41 AM
you guys can argue all you want to but I doubt you'll change each other's minds :)

Rickstir
June 22, 2006, 12:53 PM
I live out in the county. No kids.

My first line of defense is six dogs. One outside 24/7 who barks if something is not right, anywhere around the house. This sets of a chain reaction with the other five. Once out of the house you cannot believe the clatter, until the threat has been determined. Mostly a possum or something. They ramp it up if it is human, friend or foe.

It is a long walk down a narrow hallway to get to the master bedroom. In there I have, not counting my lovely wife, a Surefire G2 and a Beretta 92FS right above my head on the headboard. An 870 fully loaded with 00 buck with one in the chamber concealed in a love seat. It is two steps away from me. In the closet I have my AK-47 but it is scoped and not much use inside the house in the dark. I have just acquired a Bersa Tunder .380 Concealed Carry, that will probably go on my wife's side of the bed after we get her used to it.

You never know for sure, but I think I am ready.

ddelange
June 22, 2006, 08:22 PM
You never know for sure, but I think I am ready.

It's always a good strategy. "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best."

ddelange
June 22, 2006, 08:31 PM
guntotin:
Speed, A shot gun in the hands of a experienced user is just as fast as a M4 user in addressing mulitple targets, and just as fast in putting aimed shots on a target. I have twice hit triples on rising quail. I have hit a lot of doubles in pheasants, grouse, and ducks, and many many more in skeet and sporting clays. I often shoot with a guy who can hit 7 hand tossed clay targets before they hit the ground.

So, respectfully, you and your friend are blazin' fast against birds and skeet with a shotgun? I hope you never experience a home invasion, and the odds are that none of us on this thread will, but if it does happen, I hope your house is invaded by pheasants. . . :D

Seriously, I own a tactical shotgun and an M4. I know the advantages and limitations of each. . . . . but, respectfully, I know for a fact that at least I, and those I have trained with, can engage more targets faster, and fire more bullets into more targets faster with an M4 or AR shorty than with a pump shotgun, or even a semi-auto like a Benelli.

ATW525
June 23, 2006, 09:34 AM
PPCLI 2 CAN you indicated in a prior post that you were in the Army. If you were in the Army you couldn't have served in Serbia because there was no American persence in Serbia in 1992. The U.S Army didn't roll into Bosnia-Herzegovina until Jan 1996.

PPCLI 2 CAN is Canadian. The Canadians were in Serbia in '92 as part of the United Nations Protection Force.

Demon5Romeo
June 23, 2006, 11:35 AM
ddelange, your thoughts on SG vs M4/AR-15 Carbine are right on the money. Have used both in combat. I most situations, I'd rather have a M4.

U.S.SFC_RET
June 23, 2006, 10:37 PM
My apologies to PPCLI 2 CAN

BADMAN400
June 24, 2006, 10:12 PM
Several of the posts mention the longer length of the SG as being harder to handle. I have the shorter Moss 590A 12 ga. pistol grip 7+1 pump w/tactical light. On the nightstand is my XD-45ACP with X2L light/laser combo. And although I have two .223 AR-like weapons, (the PLR-16 and the SU-16C), I still believe the SG has the edge in HD. After all, first round knockdown would be the goal in the event of a home invasion, and IMO the SG has the best chance of that. :D

ddelange
June 25, 2006, 01:49 AM
After all, first round knockdown would be the goal in the event of a home invasion

There is no such thing as "knockdown" power from SG's, carbines, or handguns. Shotgun loads DO NOT KNOCK PEOPLE DOWN. They can create serious wounds. However, even a 12ga 00 Buck load that strikes the BG in the heart will (1) not "knock" the person down; and (2) can leave the BG with enough blood pressure in his system for 10-15 seconds. If the BG/home invader falls down after the first shot, for whatever reason ("hey, I'm shot, I must now fall down"), great; but don't count on it. Be prepared for a quick follow-up shot with whatever you're using, then a quick assessment, and if the BG is still attacking. . . repeat above, maybe with a 2 +1.

dfaugh
June 25, 2006, 08:55 AM
Depending upon your situation, you can choose a load that's safe, but effective. A couple have poo-poo'd using birdshot, but if you have to worry about over-penetration, it may be best. Because, as mentioned, at short range its not gonna spread out much anyway, but you're throwing alot of lead, but with less chance that it'll penetrate a wall. ANY load out of a shotgun is gonna make a MESS outa whoever's hit. In my situation I prefer 00 buck (don't have to worry much about overpenetration), specifically Sellior & Belloit 3" Magnum 15 pellet 00 buck. These don't have a shot cup, and spread very fast--About a 24" pattern at 40 feet. I have large house and a 40 foot shot would be likely. With the 15 pellet load, it'll put 10-12 onto a mansized target.

Now, I have a PG/folding stock on mine (which others will say is not ideal, but it works for me, with practice), so the overall length is only 28", with the stock folded. Plenty of maneuverability.

I also disagree with a couple other points. I can maneuver my whole house quite well in the dark(having lived here for a few years). Having a light would just make me a target. On the other hand the BG is either gonna have a flashlight, or be stumbling around (and giving away his position). Any family member would simply turn on the lights.

I also, don't buy into the "what if the BG grabs the gun" deal....Unlikely, that I'll be that close. But If someone grabs the barrel, I aughta have a firm enough grip, that I can't lose it, and the immediate response is to swing the other end into his face. At that point I'm also plenty close enough to do serious damage with my legs (studied martial arts for many years).

If I can't handle a situation w/ the 7 rounds packed into the shotgun, it'll certainly buy me time to retreat to my hi-cap rifles.

BADMAN400
June 25, 2006, 09:10 AM
I stand corrected. I should've said stopping power. :)

Bill DeShivs
June 25, 2006, 08:11 PM
Jeepmark
That's the point-you don't WANT it to go through him, but if it does, the residual energy falls off very rapidly. If you do have a miss the shot column of birdshot is easily disrupted and loses energy.
BTW- technically, buck shot is for deer!:D
Bill

ddelange
June 25, 2006, 08:42 PM
A couple have poo-poo'd using birdshot, but if you have to worry about over-penetration, it may be best. Because, as mentioned, at short range its not gonna spread out much anyway, but you're throwing alot of lead, but with less chance that it'll penetrate a wall. ANY load out of a shotgun is gonna make a MESS outa whoever's hit.

Birdshot is not an effective HD load for a shotgun because it does not achieve adequate penetration. Average birdshot will only penetrate 4-6". Accepting the FBI standard of 12" minimum penetration to wound vital organs and arteries, birdshot will likely end up making a large, but shallow hole. It sounds graphic, but if you're facing a home invader, you've got to cause massive bleeding. At a minimum, that starts with #1 Buck (20 .30" pellets) through 000 Buck for a HD shotgun. . . . so count me in on anyone else who has "poo-poo'd" using birdshot.

ddelange
June 25, 2006, 08:45 PM
badman:
I stand corrected. I should've said stopping power [not "knockdown power"].

That's fine, we all revert to ballistics propaganda from time to time; thanks for clarifying. . . . :)

Doc TH
June 25, 2006, 10:31 PM
In general, I'm with guntotin fool on this one. In a big city ER I saw lots of knife and gun club wounds. Only one survivor from a shotgun wound and he had no left kidney or spleen when he left a month and a half later. Handguns were mixed; seemed the most important factor was shot placement rather than caliber; had DOAs with .22 wounds and walk-aways with 45s. At that time we didn't see any 5.56 mm shootings. Most critical factor is whether or not you hit a vital organ or large blood vessel; more likely with SG than single projectile. Advantage to the SG in extremity wounds: an arm or leg hit at within-house ranges often = traumatic amputation. Other factors: SG are inexpensive; lots of places and lots of ways to get practice (skeet, trap, sporting clays, 'turkey shoots', etc.); generally less legal restrictions on purchase or ownership. Legal issues after a shooting might make use of SG more "acceptable" to a DA or Grand Jury than use of an AR-15?

NwG
June 25, 2006, 10:56 PM
Hello guys! New here and thought I would chime in..

I think the shotgun is the best bet for HD..
This is after over 45 hours of pistol training, 30 hours of carbine and 25 hours of shotgun..

Pretty much everything has been covered and lots of good points have been made..

Your best bet is a long gun. Hands down... The power is just sooo much greater than a hadgun..

On the issue of speed and movement.. A shotgun can be brought on target jsut as fast as a rifle or handgun. With the correct ready position for the situation there is no differance. The shotgun can be held high with the stock over the sholder brought up VERY quickly and shot without the stock in the sholder pocket.. With a good push-pull recoil is not a problem.. Doing this the shooter can then step backward and rotate the gun into the pocket for a follow up shot.. You can move through a house this way with little problems of the legnth being a problem (Tho again you should NEVER try to clear a house alone!)

On the issue of over all legnth.. 2-4" longer than a rifle, 5-8" longer than a pistol held out at full ready.. I see no disadvantage here..

The only problem with a shotgun is the amount of ammo in the weapon.. not very much vs a rifle or pistol.. And you better have a secondary amm source somewhere on the gun!! When you grap it at 3AM what is on/in the gun is usually all you going to get.

The shotgun is just as fast with more than one target than a rifle or pistol..


What it comes down to is what you feel comfortable with and how you train..

With correct training you can do things you wouldn't think possable! I HIGHLY suggest people save money and take a good class! they are really fun and what is learned just may save your (or my) life!

ddelange
June 26, 2006, 09:38 PM
Legal issues after a shooting might make use of SG more "acceptable" to a DA or Grand Jury than use of an AR-15?

This has become an urban legend in the gun owner community. As an attorney who has defended LEO's in wrongful shooting cases, I have never come across a cited or published case, and have never heard from any prosecutor, where the "evil looks" of the gun, or the type of ammo used, were significant factors in any self defense trial.

Besides, My Mossberg 590A1 w/ Sure Fire light and side saddle of slugs looks just as "evil" as my Colt M4.

I agree with NwG that you should pick a SG or carbine you are comfortable with for your specific HD situation, and get professional training.

guntotin_fool
June 27, 2006, 02:34 AM
My earlier post about being able to hit small, fast, fleeting and evasive birds meant that hitting a bad guy is a lot easier than hitting three quail with three shots all who are juking and diving and making for other places at 60 plus MPH. BG's do not fly. Nor are they as agile.

ddelange
June 27, 2006, 03:03 AM
guntotin:
My earlier post about being able to hit small, fast, fleeting and evasive birds meant that hitting a bad guy is a lot easier than hitting three quail with three shots

That comparison is so rediculous it's laughable. . . . . :D

Have you engaged multiple armed quail invading your house at the same time, possibly firing at you, and possessing the intelligence to attack you and attempt to kill you?

Do you even own a HD or tactical shotgun? Have you taken a professional training course with it? Until you do, this "I can shoot three quail" faster than you can engage three home invaders advice is not only silly, it's dangerous.

p.s. I shoot quail and skeet too. I greatly enjoy it. However, it's nothing like training for a home invasion with a SG or carbine. . . . I can't believe I actually have to say that. :confused:

Hollywood695
June 27, 2006, 03:17 AM
I'm usually just a lurker on this site, but I have to say, it really depends on the user and the situation, there is no "perfect" HD weapon for any and every situation. Also, the homeowner should use what they are more comfortable with. If you are comfortable, confident, and proficient with an M4, then by all means, use it. Just don't turn around and criticize your neighbor for using his shotgun that he has been using since he was 10 and is probably comparably proficient with. You have the gun you're comfortable with and rely on, and they have theirs. As far as the debate goes, I sleep with a D/A pistol under my pillow and a Win. 1300 defender in my closet. I am one of the few that actually has mixed rounds loaded in it as well. My first shot is in fact a 3 inch mag birdshot followed by 5 more 2 3/4 00buck. My train of thinking is that yes, the first shot wont penetrate much, but it seems many gunfights in the home only require one or two shots, assuming hits, not misses of course (And no, I don't have any info or links to back this up, it's just something I've picked up from reading countless "it happened to me" posts on various websites). After that first shot, I'll evaluate, this is when you either drop, run away, or for our drug induced friends, keep coming. To me, that warrants the 00 buck to finish the job. And yes, no doubt i'm gonna get flamed for that one by the strict 00buck and/or slug advocates :) . I'm comfortable and confident with a shotgun so that is what I choose to use. If you are more confident with a pistol or AR then you should use that. And as a previous poster stated, we're never gonna agree and/or get to the bottom of this argument :D. Just my (long winded at 4A.M.) .02

Respectfully,
Hollywood

ChileVerde1
June 27, 2006, 05:03 AM
Hey Guys. 1st post!

Though both scatterguns and M4's will both do the job, my concern shifts to the dammage an errant pellet of buck may do at ranges further than fifteen yards. That may be more than encountered in a home though. At work I get to choose between the excellent wilson 870's and a colt select fire M4. I always opt for the M4. I have been in situations where myself and partners have been "rocked" biblically when trying to effect an arrest and have found that an M4 commands every bit the respect, psycologically, as an 870. Also, I feel target discrimination is easier with a rifle than with a shotgun at variable ranges and in crowded situations where perps and innocents may mix. I also prefer the 62gr softpoint Wichester Ranger LEO ammo for my service issued as well as my personal weapon. I feel this type of ammo may help with overpennetration, but fortunately I've never had to find out!

guntotin_fool
June 28, 2006, 12:22 AM
DDelange

Not only do I have a HD shottie I have three in the house. two 870's, one old model model 37 Ithaca. I have been shot at. I have been shot.
Have you?

My post was strictly a comparison about speed and ability to take multiple targets under fire very quickly. Yes I do know that quail and grouse are not armed. Have I been to tactical training. yes. What did I learn there? that I was faster with a shotgun than a carbine. Pointability, practice, and preference. Just because you went to one practioner who was selling the carbine class, does not make it the word of the unspoken one. I was posting about defending MY home, against the threats that I am likely to see. I posted that the 12 gauge was superior in my mind. IN MY MIND.

I have seen wounds from carbines and I have seen the results from shotgun blasts. Believe me and believe the word of the ER doctor, People who get shot with shotguns seem to die. Very few make it to the ER. Lots of people have different opinions. Just because someone does not agree with your point of view does not mean that point of view is faulty. It just is another look. If we all saw things the same, there would be one centerfire pistol round and one centerfire rifle round.

I have a problem with your tone.

I gave an educated opinion, it did not agree with yours and you decided to attack. I posted about the differences in physical size of the two platforms. I posted about the wounds I have seen. Being unwilling to accept that I may have differing expectations and experiences from you does not make my opinions wrong.

I gave an example of why I felt that I was as quick to obtain a target with a shotgun as could be expected. I ask why you think being fast on birds has no bearing on taking any other kind of target under fire? Have you ever shot a double? two birds from the same covey on the same rise, the second dead before the first hits the ground? Hmmmm. this applies SA in knowing where the other birds have gone, watching the first hit, as you can never shoot without making sure the first is going down, and it applies target acquisition speed. Seems like that all fits in with what i was taught. observe and react., acquire first target, shoot, eval, shoot again or acquire next target, shoot, continue.

The first skill in a gun fight is gun handling.

Most people do not have the time nor inclination to run out and take many hundred dollar tactical training courses. If I was with any of my hunting partners or my kids, I would have every confidence that a shotgun in their hand would be handled well, as they have spent a lot of time in the field using them. Most of us people do not have lawyers bank accounts and find it hard to justify extra training. Mine was paid for a long time ago. They liked me, I smiled when I got to pop the bad guy.


I have no fear that I am ever going to run out of ammo in my home. I do not have that many enemies, maybe you do. For me, seven rounds of twelve gauge in the gun plus six more on the side, with another just like it in the closet or in my wife's hands seems to be enough. If we are talking about the attack of the mutant ninja zombies, then yeah maybe needing more than that is required. That is why there are belt fed weapons. I am not clearing the house, I am keeping them from getting up the stairs. That is my sole goal.

I live in suburbia. Nice places, went four months without the police needing to turn the siren on for anything other than a traffic stop. Drug head crazies mistake my house for someone else's, they are going to get a rude awakening.

No organized thief is going to hit my house for the art work and jewels, the kids drawings on the fridge are just not that valuable and the only jewels in the house are on my wife's fingers and very few would be man enough to try and take those. She is the scary one in this house. She grew up on a dairy and beef operation, culling the herd and making steers is in her blood. When it is time for something to die, it dies. I knew she was mine to marry when I was in her house for the first time. she had an 1100 behind her door (and I was to find out later, slept with a .45 under her pillow, too.)

Please do not be condescending here with regards to other posters. It belittles you.

ddelange
June 28, 2006, 02:47 AM
guntotin: my posts directed at you were simply to make the point that your analogy between engaging mulitiple pheasants or skeet quickly with a shotgun meant that you'd be faster against armed home invaders (than with a carbine) was a faulty one.

I'm glad to hear you have a tactical shotgun, that you've had training, and that you're comfortable with it in your particular situation. I also have a SG and throughout this thread I never said that an M4 is always better than a SG for home defense. I earlier stated that I know the advantages and limitations of each. For my personal situation, the M4 has more advantages. But I still keep my Mossberg 590A1 under the bed at night.

guntotin:
My post was strictly a comparison about speed and ability to take multiple targets under fire very quickly. Yes I do know that quail and grouse are not armed. Have I been to tactical training. yes. What did I learn there? that I was faster with a shotgun than a carbine. Pointability, practice, and preference. Just because you went to one practioner who was selling the carbine class, does not make it the word of the unspoken one. I was posting about defending MY home, against the threats that I am likely to see. I posted that the 12 gauge was superior in my mind. IN MY MIND.


That's good to hear you say that now, but your previous posts did not say the 12ga was superior "in your mind." You said that a SG could engage multiple home invaders faster than an M4 because you and your friend were faster with SG's against skeet and pheasants. That is what I, and a few others, took issue with. If it's faster for you, then I'm glad you're armed with what's best for you.

guntotin:
I have a problem with your tone.

I'm sorry if you have a problem with my tone. I offered my opinion that your comparison of shooting pheasants to shooting armed home invaders was "laughable." That's still my opinion. I think you're being a little too sensitive.

Please do not be condescending here with regards to other posters. It belittles you.

I have not been condescending to other posters, and I don't feel at all belittled. I've had enough experience with real world operators to know that if you can't exchange opinions vigorously and be prepared to defend your opinions, sometimes with a few barbs (did you notice the smiley faces?), then you probably shouldn't be in the discussion.

VirgilCaine
June 28, 2006, 06:12 AM
This is better:
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in the dark than this. O

Hollywood695
June 29, 2006, 04:27 AM
LOL @ virgil +1 i think...

guntotin_fool
June 29, 2006, 02:25 PM
Welcome, I hope you find it a good place to be.

My point is one you make, A loose shot gun pellet, missing its target is going to travel far less distance than a missed .223 in the suburban setting. If bystander or innocents injury is your concern, a 12 gauge makes much more sense. You state that a rifle is more selective, that is true if and when you are absolutely positive of your shot, what happens if or when you need to just throw some lead to keep a bad guys head down so you or someone else can cross a hallway?

NwG
June 29, 2006, 11:01 PM
"what happens if or when you need to just throw some lead to keep a bad guys head down so you or someone else can cross a hallway?"

You are responsible for every round that leaves your barrel.. Basic rules here..

Be aware of your target, what is behind it, possable cross traffic through your line of fire, and if possable what is behind you! (The last one may be a little much but at times you can be just as responsible for the bad guys bullets as yours.. ie drwing and shooting with a flock of people behind you)

johnsonrlp
June 29, 2006, 11:27 PM
Because it's the biggest one I have.

Lycanthrope
June 30, 2006, 12:11 AM
Because inside 15 yards, nothing is going to tear you up like a shotgun with the right load.

When you feel threatened, you really aren't concerned with anything else except stopping the threat.