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Para Bellum
June 4, 2006, 03:35 AM
Hi folks,

I live in a (European) Brown-Bear (ursus arctos) area. Recently we have some "problem-bears" which come too close to human settlement.
I carry 9x19mm Handguns 24/7. So I wonder what to bring when going to the woods.

I am especially interested in real experience from those who have hunted brown bear. In terms of ballistic performance I am convinced that especially with big game, penetration is the most important quality of a bullet. So, staying with 9x19mm and 33 Shots in one gun (Glock 9x19mm 33rds magazine) I would go for the Hirtenberger/Fiocci/S&B FL (SB31065) (http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/pistol-and-revolver-ammunition.php?view=all) cartridge. It's law enforcement ammunition and an extreme penetrator:
100gr, small soft point, 428 m/s (1404ft/sec), 595joules (438ft/#).
http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/img/foto-ammunition/sb31065-nd.jpg

I don't believe in any handgun to end a bear-encounter with only a few shots. So 20 shots with good placement and extreme penetrating ammo from a 9x19mm is what I would go for. I'd stick with the 9x19mm because I practice a lot and successfully compete with this caliber. Placement and speed should not be the problem with my 9x19mms. So what good should a 500-Revolver be with only 6 shots which I couldn't fire with the placement and in the time I'd fire 20 9x19mm FLs?

Or would the bear-experienced guys among us recommend another caliber? I expect that penetration is the only remedy against a brown bear, so I'd only go for
.357 Sig.
7,62x25 Tokarev
.357 Mag.
.44 Mag.
10mm Auto
.50 AE

with ammo like the Hirtenberger/Fiocchi FL the 9x19mm is one of the best penetrators of all...

so what do you think? What would you take to stay safe when she thinks you came to close to her kid?

http://www.naturfoto-online.de/bilder_k/foto12525_k.jpg

mete
June 4, 2006, 08:32 AM
If the bear attacks it will happen very fast and she will kill you before you can pump enough rounds of 9mm into her to kill her !!! Try hard to find reality. ....BTW are you hunting JJ1, the Italian bear that wandered into Austria and Germany ?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

FirstFreedom
June 4, 2006, 09:01 AM
Well, if that's an extreme penetrator, then it may be the best load for what you want. But mete is right, if a bear attacks, it will be VERY swift and unexpected. You'd be very lucky to get 2 or 3 rounds off before completely engaged in just being a rag doll, unable to shoot. More likely only 1 shot. Therefore, if you really think it's a possibility, I'd definitely invest in a bigger boomer. Something like a .44 magnum at a minimum. Maybe one of these?

http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=44Tracker4SS&category=Revolver

mikejonestkd
June 4, 2006, 09:18 AM
For self defense against a bear I would opt for at least a M60 or a BAR.:)

Even a 12 ga pump with slugs would be more effective than a handgun.

Seriously: a .44 mag and up would slow a big bear down, he'd still get to you but probably chew on your leg with less enthuasiasm...:)

In autos a .45acp up to a .50AE would slow it down too.

good luck.

AndrewD
June 4, 2006, 10:38 AM
As far as handguns go, that Taurus 44Mag looks pretty damn good. But...

We've all heard the stories about big game being dropped by all different kinds. A bear attack situation would seem to be have so many variables that just having a large caliber handgun, or even rifle, is just a small step towards protection. I think you would want to learn as much as possible about the animal, and train significantly with your chosen weopon specifically for an incident. Also, learning to avoid a bear attack should be number one on your list.

45reloader
June 4, 2006, 11:28 AM
Google bear attack.

4 guys fishing in Alaska would take turn with a shotgun watching for bear.The bear did come and suprised the guy with the shotgun.He dropped the shotgun and jumped in the water.:rolleyes:

2 guys with FMJ 9mm pistols unloaded 17 rounds into the bear and killed it.Autopsy showed the first bullet broke the front leg of the bear slowing it's attack.

Anything can happen.But your best bet is the biggest gun you can handle.AFTER you climb a tree or wedge yourself into a small pocket of rocks or logs.Wild animals will always run first and so should humans.

Para Bellum
June 4, 2006, 12:19 PM
BTW are you hunting JJ1, the Italian bear that wandered into Austria and Germany ??
sure. :)

seriously: I am not hunting and not keen on buying a generally useless type of extra gun just because we have brown bear(s!) in our woods.

I just wonder what I should take with me if I (and maybe my family) go into the woods as we sometimes do. I also read the story about the bear attack stopped by several 9x19mm FMJ. That's what I meant. The soft nose bullet I posted above penetrates even (much) more than normal 9x19mm FMJ and it's very hot. The likelihood that one really runs into a bear here is remote. But, since I carry 24/7, I don't want to carry the worst if there is a chance of a bear encounter. The worst - so I imagine - would be a ultrafast expanding bullet that wouldn't even reach a bear's vitals...

but, the question was: Do any of you guys actually know what to look for against a bear?

...it was almost answered by that 9x19mm breaking the bear's shoulder story. That's what I was looking for. Proof for my assumption that the 9x19mm with non-expanding and harshly penetrating ammo is capable of destroying what a bear needs to condtinue...

PS: I've also seen in the only authoritative source of real ballistic information, CSI (episode: "unbearable"), that you can drop a kodiak with one shot from a 6" .357 revolver :D

banditt007
June 4, 2006, 11:01 PM
honestly the 9mm is good to make YOU feel better, but in reality i would be willing to bet it wouldnt do anything in the way of stopping a bear.

My advice.

18" barrel, 12 gauge pump, 7or8 shot loaded with DIXIE SLUGS the 1400fps ones.

banditt007
June 4, 2006, 11:06 PM
infact i'm thinking bear spray would be best yet.

everyone in the family can use it...

leadcounsel
June 5, 2006, 02:15 AM
Try a $30 can of bear spray repellant. Non lethal, cheap, non deadly and a good alternative.

mete
June 5, 2006, 02:28 AM
Bring a dog with you to distract the bear and don't try to save the dog, it's expendable. Penetration is the most important consideration.Head shots are not good since it's too easy for the bullet to be deflected.

hoghunting
June 5, 2006, 09:13 AM
After conferring with friends in Alaska and Montana who hunt bears, we were all in agreement. If you plan on the 9mm, if an attack happens, put the gun up to your head and fire. You will be mauled long before you stop the bear with the 9mm. The bear will be charging towards you leaving the head and chest as the largest target. The 9mm won't penetrate the head and if you are able to get a couple of rounds in the chest, chances are you won't live long enough to see if the 9mm had any effect.

This is coming from people that won't use anything smaller than a 375 H&H mag. They have seen bears hit with those cartridges, often times multiple hits, and they still travel a hundred yards before expiring.

Try the pepper spray to try to deter the bear. Don't tick him off by hitting him with the 9mm.

Para Bellum
June 5, 2006, 02:00 PM
This is coming from people that won't use anything smaller than a 375 H&H mag. They have seen bears hit with those cartridges, often times multiple hits, and they still travel a hundred yards before expiring.
very encouraging. That at least gives the comfort that it doesn't matter what handgung you use...
But, why shouldn't a 9x19mm with extreme penetrating ammo be able to penetrate a bear's skull? I'll do some research on that...

and I found this here: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?postid=6278746 i beg to differ on the penetration of the 147 grain load. a while back i read about a test where they shot steers in the forehead with differnt loads. all the heavy fmj loads gave complete penetration. now a steer skull isn't a bears but if a 147 can go in the front and out the back of a 1000 pound steer it can at least get to the brain of a bear.

in the june 2003 issue of rifle's handloader magzine. phil shoemaker a guide with 20 years worth of experience gave his daughter a smith model 65 357 mag. for bear protection. he claimed to have killed a bear with this gun and 180 grain bullets, hit behind the head and into the neck breaking the spine then giving 18 inchs of penetration.

he even said "i would fell more secure with a double action .22 mag than a single action .454 because of the little gun's ability for rabid hits and superb penetration"

That's pretty much what I think. IMHO at close range only a CNS hit or crushing a bone that's crucial for movement (shoulder, hip) could hepl against a bear. So all you can seriously ask for is deeeeep penetration. Forget cavity and stuff. That animal is too big to be stopped by a cavity you could inflict. So: deeeeep penetration (FMJ or better pointed bullets in 9x19, .357 Mag or Sig, 7,62 Tokarev, .22) capacity (the same) and controlability (the same).

So all I'll do is stick a 33 shot magazine with extremely penetrating ammo into my 9x19mm glocks when I hit the woods in bear regions. What more effective could I do? I won't go hiking with an assault rife and I don't believe in shotguns against bear...

hoghunting
June 5, 2006, 02:21 PM
Do you really want to believe the words from somebody who says he would rather use a double action 22 mag instead of a single action 454 for bear?

You obviously intend to carry the 9mm and want someone to tell you that the 100 gr load will stop a bear. No one here in the States is that foolish. Take your 9mm and head out on your hikes. Good luck to you.

DobermansDoItGoofy
June 5, 2006, 07:15 PM
The bear has a low breathing rate and a heart that's beating maybe 25 beats per minute... The bear has a lot of oxygen-rich blood and muscle... and when you shoot him - even if it's in a vital organ or artery/vein - that bear might die instantly...but it might live 5 minutes,15 minutes, or an hour...before he/she dies... I've read of bears taking a shotgun slug to the heart and still living for quite few minutes... If you figure that a bear can charge at about 30mph and can be filled with adrenaline... you don't want to be trying to rely on a 22mag or a 9mm - even if you can get off multi-shots.
I have a 454/45 , but I'm not exposed to much serious bear country. I do occassionaly encounter ferral dogs - but I try to avoid them and don't go looking for them. A 454/45 is a 'bug' for bears; it's not meant to be something you pull out because a bear is 50 yards away. It's meant to be something you pull out if in the rare event a bear surprises you and is either in your tent or right on top of you...because then a pistol can be used whereas a rifle is too unwieldy or out of reach. A 454 from my little RH can deliver at the muzzle a huge blast(it might actually distract a bear) and about 1800 lbs. of energey - so theoretically if you can deliver 3 shots from a 454 at the muzzle - the bear is going to be hit with a combined total of about 5000lbs.of energy. That might be more than enough! However, you'll be lucky to get off one shot. Admittedly , it's a rare event. The best thing - is to know your wildlife and focus on avoiding such encounters...BUT I'd rather have my little snubbie 454 THAN a scoped 375H&H in the event a bear was on top of me... :cool:

FirstFreedom
June 5, 2006, 10:22 PM
i beg to differ on the penetration of the 147 grain load. a while back i read about a test where they shot steers in the forehead with differnt loads. all the heavy fmj loads gave complete penetration. now a steer skull isn't a bears but if a 147 can go in the front and out the back of a 1000 pound steer it can at least get to the brain of a bear.

Parabellem.... Angle, angle, angle! It's easy to penetrate a thick skull at a right angle, but if a bear is coming at you, the sloping front of the skull will be less than 45 degrees - bad bad mojo there - even a big boomer like a .44 mag may actually ricochet off the forehead, depending on exact angle and load used. A 9mm is better than nothing, but pepper spray would be better than a 9mm, IMO -and probably better than even a .454 casull for accomplishing the desired result (bear go bye bye quickly). If you do shoot with a 9mm, however, I'd go for the hip bones (pelvis - to slow it down) or the heart/lungs or both, because of the problems with angles/penetration of the skull, espec. under highly stressed conditions. Also, if you do insist on using the 9mm for that contingency, I'd try to find a 147 grain load of the same hard-alloy construction of that 100 grainer. Heavier is always better when serious penetration is needed. Now that 100 grain load may in fact penetrate better than a JHP expanding 147 grainer, but it won't more than a hardcast lead or ball ammo 147. In fact, that ammo there is described as a "soft point" which if true, will mean that it's horribly poorly suited for what you want (penetration).

Look to this company to sell you some hardcast 147s and roll your own:

http://northeastbullet.com/shop.htm

look at #8 on that page.

banditt007
June 6, 2006, 12:04 AM
I don't believe in shotguns against bear...

you do realize there is a saying that goes something like

"Use your handgun to fight your way back to your rifle (shotgun) that you should have never put down in the first place" ...it has a lot of truth to it.

A shotgun slug, hardened, is what you need, or a BIG rifle.

Can you please explain what is 'not to beleive' in a shotgun against a bear????????




Obvioulsy you have your mind set on a 9mm, which people argue if its effective enough against HUMANS. not to mention a bear.

another side note that you may or may not care about hearing is that 9mm would be laughed at for killing a HOG, and will bounce off its skull. we are talking hunting here not walk up to a caged hog and shoot it.

hang out in the hog forums(texasboars.com) and you will find talk of rifle bullets/.45acp bouncing off hogs skulls.

its all about the angle of the shot.

why would you load yourself down with a huge 30 something magazine on it?

You wont be able to get off 5 shots!

You asked for advice, myself and others gave it, and now you are defending your little 9mm.

this is like asking if a .22lr is okay for stopping a charging elephant....sure go ahead. i hope we catch some video of it!

22-rimfire
June 6, 2006, 09:18 AM
No experience with either Brown Bears, Grizzlys or big bears in general. So why am I posting? I just love these kinds of threads. I can only relate my own expereince behind a camera on an irritated black bear (probably 300 pounds) ..... scared me when it charged. It was a fake charge, but it certainly taught me a lesson about bears as it covered the 40 of the 50 yds or so in a second or two at most. I forgot to wear my brown pants that day!

I would have had the gun already drawn to have made even a half-hearted attempt at defense. In this case, I could have, but I was intent on taking pictures. If I'm in bear country and I'm worried about such things, I would pack my 41 mag. I doubt that I would want to lug around a rifle or shotgun unless I'm hunting. The 41mag would mostly make me feel better. The same would apply to a 9mm. You would have to be very cool and calm in the face of danger to get off more than a couple effective aimed shots at a charging bear no matter if it was 200 lbs or 1000 lbs.

As I recall, most people in Alaska suggest a minimum of 300 Weatherby mag or 338 for large bears. Bears are notoriously tough and even after being hit in the chest, they run for a good ways. So, if the bear is intent on killing you, you probably are dead unless you are lucky and make a spine or head shot no matter what rifle or handgun you might have.

RsqVet
June 6, 2006, 09:46 AM
Mete ---

That has got to be the funniest darn thing that I have read in a long time.

Maybe your dog will be intrested in taking on a bear, and well maybe he or she will not in which case dogs run a heck of a lot faster than people and it will be you who are sacraficed to the bear. Even if you have a really well trained protection dog it's a crap shoot as to how it goes as I know of no good training protocol for bear defense, even people who run bears with dogs usually use more than one.

Frankly the best thing you can have for early waring is probibly a dog as they make a lot of noise and are very attuned to the envoirment, but as a defense it's probibly not gona buy you a whole lot.

Harley Quinn
June 6, 2006, 10:18 AM
Very well proven round and with 17 in the mag it is the way to go. They are proven penetraters and are going to get the job done. Mete is correct.

HQ:cool:

Scorch
June 6, 2006, 12:53 PM
Maybe I have no finesse, but I do not have a death wish either.
I remember reading an article by the founder of Magnaport (I believe his name is Larry Kelly, although I cannot remember right now). In that article, he shot a brown bear at point blank range with a 44 Mag loaded with hard cast bullets when it stuck its head into a cabin with him and his guide. Six shots fired, six hits in the chest and head, the bear turned and walked away like it didn't care. The guide warmed up his 375 H&H, put 3 rounds into the bear and dropped it, primarily because he was required by law to pursue and dispatch any wounded bears. He then proceeded to tell the hunter to never shoot again at an animal unless he told him to. When they skinned out the animal, the rounds had not made it to a vital area, even though they were fired directly into the animal and supposedly would have had full muzzle energy.
So, would I try it with a 9mm? No, not even as a last resort. I would never be in bear country with a 9mm, no matter what type of bullets it was loaded with. The chance of hitting a charging brown bear in the eye socket or directly in the parietal lobe in order to drop it with a 9mm is remote at best. They charge at 35 mph (that's 60 km/h for those on the metric system), they are tough, they usually charge from close range, and they don't tell you when they are going to charge.
No thanks, no 9mm for me! But if you feel like becoming bear scat, you go right ahead!

Para Bellum
June 6, 2006, 01:31 PM
You obviously intend to carry the 9mm and want someone to tell you that the 100 gr load will stop a bear. No one here in the States is that foolish. Take your 9mm and head out on your hikes. Good luck to you.
Thanks :-)
The think is that there is a particular bear right now coming very close to human settlement in an anyhow densely polulated area. It's not about long hikes in "bear country". It's about taking a little walk outside...

And don't get me wrong, I don't wanna becom bear poop.

Can you please explain what is 'not to beleive' in a shotgun against a bear????????
yes. Because a slug doesn't penetrate hard structures like bear's skulls etc. It's the old stroy of force/diameter. I'd rather use 000 Steel-Buck on a bear's skull.

Obvioulsy you have your mind set on a 9mm, which people argue if its effective enough against HUMANS. not to mention a bear.

another side note that you may or may not care about hearing is that 9mm would be laughed at for killing a HOG, and will bounce off its skull. we are talking hunting here not walk up to a caged hog and shoot it.
I appreaciate your time and thought, but you don't see my point. I would bet on deep and slim wholes in the bear and lots of them. 33 round is only 6-8 sec (including draw), so there is a chance...

hang out in the hog forums(texasboars.com) and you will find talk of rifle bullets/.45acp bouncing off hogs skulls.
Sorry, but against hard structures the .45 APC is a ballistically inferior gun. I'd prefer a .22 over a .45 ACP even if the task was to penetrate a human skull. Not to mention "penetrators" like 7,62x25 tokarev or .357 sig with FMJ or even better penetrating ammo.

its all about the angle of the shot.
IMHO it's all about the speed and width of the bullet.

why would you load yourself down with a huge 30 something magazine on it?
because it's very easy to carry in a yaqui-style holster. And much easier than a .338 rifle etc. And what I don't believe is one-shot-stops. Not with dogs, hogs, humans and surely not with bears.

You wont be able to get off 5 shots!
last timing: drawing behind a barricade, moving around, assessing 3 different targets at 7-10yds and putting 2 hits on each target including draw: 2,19 sec.
So I think, I'd have a chance of shooting at it repeatedly as long as I am alive and able to move.

You asked for advice, myself and others gave it, and now you are defending your little 9mm. are my little 9mms prosecuted yet?

this is like asking if a .22lr is okay for stopping a charging elephant....sure go ahead. i hope we catch some video of it! did you read the story by the bear attack stopped by one little 9x19mm bullet that crashed it's shoulder-bones? Did you ever ask yourself why no army in the world uses and handgun-bullets wider than 9mm? Expansion an cavity etc won't help against a bear, too big a beast. All you can do is:
- destroy the bear's mechanical ability to continue by crushing bones, or
- destroy the bear's neurological ability to continue the attack.
And all that helps you there is: penetration.

RsqVet
June 6, 2006, 02:16 PM
"I'd prefer a .22 over a .45 ACP even if the task was to penetrate a human skull."

Now that my friend is just plain funny. I'm personally not at all into caliber arguments, 40, 45, 9, whatever you want for personal defense. Personally I wish the 10mm had matured and there were good and ruged platforms for it plentiful in the main stream but then that is another story.

However questioning the ability for 45 to penetrate human skulls is just shows a lack of apreciation for the realities of life, but maybe that is what the topic of this thread (as all bear defense threads ultimatly reach) has become.

Parabellum your points about shot placement and penetration are well taken however you are over optimistic in your outlook. If the question is is a 9mm better than nothing then the anser would be yeah, I'd rather have the 9mm. If the question is what would be considered adequate the 9mm is not on the list, not even the same ball park and you can chose to listen to more learned and experinced shooters / hunters as to why or you can presist in your belife however it will not change reality.

Take a look around http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp and see what goes in to serious large animal stopping cartriges and then think about if you really feel any 9mm loaded with any bullet is up to the task. .

Harley Quinn
June 6, 2006, 03:35 PM
Some of you missed my post.:D

HQ:cool:

Scorch
June 6, 2006, 04:55 PM
Just some quick numbers:
Time to draw and fire 4 shots= 2.19 seconds
Reaction time= approximately .1 seconds?
Total time to react and fire 4 shots at a STATIONARY target= 2.29 sconds

Bears sprint at 35 mph (60 km/h)= 51 fps (15.5 m/s)
Distance covered by the bear in the amount of time required to draw and fire= 35.5 m (118 ft)

Make the first shot count! Good luck!

Harley Quinn
June 6, 2006, 08:33 PM
I think under those circustances you are pretty lucky if you can get off a round under cool fire, let alone anything that will stop it with a good shot.

But if you had the ability to be able to put something between you and the bear, I believe you have a better chance in close with a 9mm shooting rapid fire into the face of the bear.

My thoughts;) You would have to have the guts and determination of a true hunter and killer to be able to do this I believe. In this scenario you are as they say toast "scorched".

I would not go hunting bear with a hand gun unless you had a good man with a 45-70 with some hot loads, in a lever and nerves of steel, and can hit the target. I have met one man like that.

HQ :cool:

Para Bellum
June 7, 2006, 08:41 AM
My thoughts You would have to have the guts and determination of a true hunter and killer to be able to do this I believe. In this scenario you are as they say toast "scorched".
we will hopefully never find out. But if it were to choose between being a hunter and a killer or becoming bear poop, I'd rather go for the former.

I would not go hunting bear with a hand gun unless you had a good man with a 45-70 with some hot loads, in a lever and nerves of steel, and can hit the target. I have met one man like that.
I would never go hunting bear from anywhere the bear could reach me. And if I were hunting for a bear I'd bring the most powerful gun I could carry.

Just some quick numbers:
Time to draw and fire 4 shots= 2.19 seconds
Reaction time= approximately .1 seconds?
Total time to react and fire 4 shots at a STATIONARY target= 2.29 seconds

Bears sprint at 35 mph (60 km/h)= 51 fps (15.5 m/s)
Distance covered by the bear in the amount of time required to draw and fire= 35.5 m (118 ft)

Make the first shot count! Good luck!
Thanks for the wish. Now for the numbers. If you read my post again you will see, that I wrote about 6 (six) shots. It's about 1,25 sec to react and move on step aside of the barricade and 0,94 for the six (6) shots onto three (3) targets, that's two (2) shots each.

Aaaanyway: I am not advocating brown-bear-hunting with a 9x19mm handgun. I might be weird but I'm not that stupid. But: The more I listen, research and think about it, the more I find that for cqb-defense against a brown bear, one of my carry 9x19mms with a large magazine (19-33rds) and the extreme penetrating (and bone-crushing) ammo posted above would be as "ideal" as a gun could be in "not so ideal" situations like that one.

Did you guys realize that the only real-life experience I could get my hands on actually was an incident in which a "little 9mm" stopped the bear attack by breaking the bear's shoulder?

and Harley Quinn, I appreciate your company!

Harley Quinn
June 7, 2006, 09:46 AM
We who enjoy the little 9 mm need back up.:D

Most topics will say they over penetrate, can't do the job. I own a Glock 17L, that is a 6" it helps a little for the sighting and fps. I like the lighter trigger pull also.

Head shots are the way to go these days, so practice is the answer. If they penetrate then they get to the vitals, if it is an ice pick or a 9mm in the heart it still does the job, same way in the eye or ear.

They go through clothing, light or heavy they are well supplied with bullets on the market for many applications, there are usually many in the magazine for back up. The recoil is very manageable. That means 2nd and 3rd and 4th shots are more on target.

If you are shooting and going for all the above I believe it is hard to find a better round, must be why they are the number one in the world for the military of most countries.:D

Germans are very good when it comes to the design of Martial ways.

HQ

BlueTrain
June 7, 2006, 10:18 AM
I can't offer any first hand experiences with brown bears or bears of any color, for that matter, but friends have had some encounters.

First of all, this is hardly a new subject and people have been discussing the subject for a long, long time. It would be hard to come up with something new at this point. One interesting thing, however, is that some very experienced big game hunters in the past felt confident in recommending calibers, all revolvers, that would now be considered way too underpowered. Care to carry your .455 Webley as a back-up?

But there is more to the story.

Remember, this is essentially consideration of a back-up weapon, in this particular case, the 9mm. At one time the .38 ACP was considered the best choice (not the .380 ACP) but we have moved on from there. Different authorative sources will give different recommendations but handguns usually aren't listed. Either a 12-guage or a .44-magnum carbine, if you aren't hunting.

Another point that usually isn't mentioned is that this is something that happens at something like contact distance. It is worth adding that you don't mess with something that isn't bothering you.

UniversalFrost
June 7, 2006, 10:39 AM
Did you ever ask yourself why no army in the world uses and handgun-bullets wider than 9mm?

Semi-auto handgun calibers currently in military and police use are 9mm Parabellum, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP. The latter two are preferred as they are somewhat more effective. Military ball (full metal jacket) handgun ammo is suitable for practice, but high efficiency expanding types are preferred for self defense.

Oh, and by the way, I carried a Baretta M9 (9mm) while on my first tour in Iraq and Afghanistan as a backup side arm. I didn't have to use mine against enemy combatants, but witnessed a situation where a guy did. He unloaded 5 shots center mass into the "bad guy" and the "bad guy" kept running. A quick 3 shot burst from an M4 finally brought the guy down before he could detonate (suicide bomber). We later found out that they guy was most likely hopped up on drugs because that was the only way they were getting them to blow themselves up. This was a guy and he couldn't be stopped with 5 shots into his chest (heart, lungs, etc..) with a 9mm, try that on a charging bear. My bet is it will only make him ****** off more. Good luck and try not to become bear poop otherwise you will wind up competing for the DARWIN AWARD with the guy in colorado protecting himself from the mt. lions with a BB gun (true story search the forum for the thread).

Para Bellum
June 7, 2006, 03:45 PM
BlueTrain:
First of all, this is hardly a new subject and people have been discussing the subject for a long, long time. It would be hard to come up with something new at this point.
yes. but my approach with the 9x19mm and the FL-bullet (above, original-Post) is kinda new.

Another point that usually isn't mentioned is that this is something that happens at something like contact distance. It is worth adding that you don't mess with something that isn't bothering you.
Sure. I am not even a hunter and don't plan becoming one...
My carrying is job-related.

UniversalFrost
Oh, and by the way, I carried a Baretta M9 (9mm) while on my first tour in Iraq and Afghanistan as a backup side arm. I didn't have to use mine against enemy combatants, but witnessed a situation where a guy did. He unloaded 5 shots center mass into the "bad guy" and the "bad guy" kept running. A quick 3 shot burst from an M4 finally brought the guy down before he could detonate (suicide bomber). We later found out that they guy was most likely hopped up on drugs because that was the only way they were getting them to blow themselves up. This was a guy and he couldn't be stopped with 5 shots into his chest (heart, lungs, etc..) with a 9mm, try that on a charging bear.
maybe I didn't get it clear: CNS or Skeleton hits with the FL-ammo. Rapid fire.
COM-Hits "(heart, lungs, etc..)" stop nothing with no caliber. You stop with CNS hits and pelvic hits (men) and CNS/pelvic/shoudler hits (bear). COM-Hits "(heart, lungs, etc..)" kill (later) but don't neccessarily stop. It's like a Football-Tackle and the HIV-Virus. The former surely stops, the latter surely kills. I want a stop. If a bear or BG just can't keep on charging because his pevis is broken - that's fine with me. live and let live. What good is it to kill (COM heart, lungs, etc..) and be killed in return because our dying BG/bear has enough time to payback?

Harley Quinn
June 7, 2006, 05:07 PM
The thing about stories is they are just that. You like the nine I like the nine.

I have seen many people shot, some lived and some died. But no one walked or moved real well when shot thru the bladder and into the pelvic area and the sacrum.
In training we were taught to shoot into that area and then into the chest.

Not the other way around. When I was A LEO our holsters were lower. When we drew we were coming up from a lower position, shooting at the pelvic area first and the and chest area second. Just the way we were taught. I still believe it 100%. We were bringing up the revolver and dropping at the knees, putting us on target for the pelvis area very quickly. This is in the day of 38 spl as a round.

No one will convince me any other way. If I don't have the target, of course I take what I can get. 9mm is a penetrating round it goes through bone pretty well.

I think under the conditions you are describing and the ammo that is avaliable over in Europe, it is the way to go. European ammo is better for the nine, guess that is because, that is where it stems from.

HQ

Para Bellum
June 8, 2006, 07:08 AM
Harley Quinn
I fully agree with you and thank you for sharing your experience with us.

Just one more thing: The US makes one excellent round for the 9x19mm, the Federal EFMJ. It's the only US-made-round in my list of favourite 9x19mm rounds:
1. Fiocchi/Hirtenberger EMB 93gr (defense / police) (http://www.globalarms.net/topics/hp_emb/hp_emb0.htm)
2. Federal EFMJ 124gr (http://www.thegunzone.com/efmj.html)
3. Fiocchi/Hirtenberger/S&B FL 100gr (extreme penetration / police and BEAR!), see above

Some guys testes all three of them:
http://www.raoulwagner.com/tests2005.htm

stay safe and sound!

Harley Quinn
June 8, 2006, 08:02 AM
Para Bellum

Thanks for sharing. The 9mm is still hanging in there. Puts a different light on the 40??? Interesting. :confused:

Considering the damage done and the shootability of the 9mm to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th round off easier and quicker "back on to the target" (especially for people that don't have good grips) I can see why Departments still prefer them.

That 22 round is nasty, "stinger" I'd say.

Saved it all to my documents.:D

HQ

mete
June 8, 2006, 08:58 AM
I see comments made about bone that are not good assumptions . All bone is not the same . For example , a deer's leg bone is seven times denser than a cows !!! ...Shots to the pelvis are a very viable way to put the BG down immediately ,it really works and is much better than a head shot which can be deflected easily. For animals the pelvic shot [actually the base of the spine] will paralyse the hind end immediately becasue of the network of nerves there .I recently saw a TV program where they shot a wounded cape buffalo there and the rear end collapsed preventing the animal from escaping.

RsqVet
June 8, 2006, 10:37 AM
Parabellum

Obviously your mind is set and since you are in europe I guess you should consider yourself luck to have any firearm and any ability to carry it for any defensive use however 9mm against a bear will never be a popular choice.

I also have to question some of your statements.

When discussing COM shots it is not always a mistake to believe that they can result in rapid incapacitation, in fact most trainers I have read note this as well since any size hole in the heart it's self or a great vessel will lead to bleed out in a few seconds. Obviously the less great the vessel the slower the process.

So far as shoulder and pelvic shots on a Bear, in close proximity with a 9mm I got to say lots of luck with that, if you can reach and incapacitate the CNS fine I give you that you can stop a bear. Hitting shoulder or pelvis with a 9mm is not going to do enough trauma to stop the bear, wound, maybe even paralize yeah, but I think that if you are really in a need to shoot situation i.e. you are in such close proximity to said bear, thining that the shoulder or pelvis shot is going to solve the problem you have is really really optimistic.

Para Bellum
June 9, 2006, 02:01 PM
...and since you are in europe I guess you should consider yourself luck to have any firearm and any ability to carry it for any defensive use...
Europe is very diverse as are the US (think of NYC gun-laws :barf: ).
In many countries obtaining guns is not at all a problem. A carrying permit can also obtained withouth much trouble in many EU Countries...

When discussing COM shots it is not always a mistake to believe that they can result in rapid incapacitation, in fact most trainers I have read note this as well since any size hole in the heart it's self or a great vessel will lead to bleed out in a few seconds.
I read the same and COM is surely a good idea but a few seconds, say 15 for a heart shot is realistic. Count to 15, now.
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 - 9 - 10 - 11 - 12 - 13 - 14 - 15

Imagine what a shizoid-paranoic guy with a knife on speed at initially 25 feet could do in that few 15 seconds. And that's not even an unreal scenario. Happend to a friend of mine in his office.

That's why I started considering pelvic shots as a first shot. If you hit the pelis well, the threat drops. You might not even have to kill him once he is down with a broken pelvis. And that sounds very reasonable to me...

by the way, if I were actually looking or huntig for a bear, this would be the weapon of my choice, from a tree-stand at 500yds distance:

http://www.bundesheer.at/images_skaliert/par66_768x547_1139489711.jpg

and if I had to move from that tree-stand while hunting for a bear, I'd choose this means of transportation:

http://www.bundesheer.at/images_skaliert/pandur_3_768x542_1133961884.jpg

I know, some of you will say that you need a 60t M1-A1 tank and that little european 13,5t Pandur (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/pandur/index.html#pandur1) wouldn't do, but hey - we all have our preferences and I like a diverse world.

Rich Lucibella
June 9, 2006, 02:35 PM
9mm for Brown Bear?

My advice....make certain to file the sights nice and smooth. :)
Rich

BUSTER51
June 9, 2006, 03:49 PM
I say forget a pistol for bear ,a Marlin 1895M in 450 Marlin is light and handy and will get the job done .:eek:

DobermansDoItGoofy
June 9, 2006, 08:04 PM
The problem with a pelvis shot...is that the pelvis is not the charging end of the grizzly bear... Imagine one's computer screen as being the snarling face of a grizzly. Imagine it suddenly booming toward you bobbing a bit up and down from about 20 yards away at a speed of about 20 - 30 mph. It's not a good target and the bear's muscle-covered head is likely to deflect a bullet because there's an excellent chance the bullets are going to graze at an angle rather than hit strait on or through an eye... Once the bear is on top of you...can you count on that little semiauto 9mm not jamming? Can you count on not tapping the slide the wrong way?

When that ol' bear is on top of me...and I'm feeling his stinky breath...fogging up my eyeglasses...that's when I say a silent prayer, unholster my 454 RH REVOLVER and KABOOOOOOOM 1600lbs. of flash and muzzle energy into the ol'bear...and keep KABOOOOOOMING...until I'm either
a survivor on earth...or a survivor at the pearly gates... :D

Of course a 375 H&H would be better at stopping a charge...but if a bear is sitting on you...a scoped 375H&H or anything is too unwieldy. Best thing is a revolver with the biggest most powerful bullet you can fire... :D

MeekAndMild
June 9, 2006, 09:37 PM
There's an old joke about the guy who wanted to buy a big 9mm pistol for bear defense. The fellow in the gun store couldn't talk him out of 9mm so he finally showed him a little tiny Kel Tec. The customer asked him why such a little pistol. Said the shopkeeper, "The smaller the 9mm pistol the less it will hurt when the bear takes it away from you and sticks it up your ...:rolleyes: "

Having said that I used to carry a .44 when I was out blackberry picking in bear country but I'm thinking seriously of getting one of these new Taurus revolvers. (http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=500MSS2&category=Revolver) Its .500 magnum caliber but is small enough so it won't hurt quite as much as a long barreled revolver if the bear gets ahold of it. :D

Here is a similar model Ruger. (http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5301&return=Y) It is available in .454 and .480. Doesn't have ports and only weights 41 ounces but the .454 will shoot .45 colt so practice won't be so painful.

maximuss
June 9, 2006, 10:40 PM
S&W 500:eek:

MeekAndMild
June 10, 2006, 08:59 AM
Yes, that :eek: is why they have the recoil ports.

UniversalFrost
June 10, 2006, 11:47 AM
I would also suggest a revolver in 45/70 or 44/40 if you want to use a pistol. Otherwise I would go with a good lever gun in those calibers or 444 as well. I gues the 9mm would be good to shoot yourself in the head to relieve the pain and put yourself out of misery when the bear is tearing you apart. :eek: Just my opinion.

Rich Lucibella
June 10, 2006, 09:20 PM
the extreme penetrating (and bone-crushing)
....handgun round?

Am I the only one that is wildly amused?

Hey, Harley-
Remember the Famous TFL Hangun Hog Challenge?
Just how hard did you drop your hog with them there "extreme penetrating (and bone-crushing)" 9mm rounds?
Or were they 45's?
Was he hit?
Could we know?

But a Brown Bear; that's different. They drop as soon as they feel the sting.
"Ouch....nite, nite now", said the Big Bad Bear. "I do believe I have been shot".

:D
Rich

Art Eatman
June 11, 2006, 08:45 AM
I guess what bothers me in all this is that there are two main styles of encounters with Brer Big Bear: First is the hunt, where you're trying to see the bear before he sees you. Your preference is a shot from what you might call a safe distance: Safe for you, not the bear. Even in such a quasi-controlled circumstance there are many stories of hair-raising adventures and injuries/deaths.

The next deal bears more on this thread: You're wandering along, minding your own business, and a bear attacks. Remember, if he doesn't attack, you can't shoot. Agin the law.

Now, most survivors' stories include, "...and, suddenly..." Yeah, suddenly. As in no warning, it says in the interview from the hospital.

I'll take wisdom over valor, any day. Over the last seven years of reading Alaska guys' comments about Big Bears, I gotta go with their consensus that something on the order of a .454 Casull is a minimum starting spot. And I'd spend some serious time in being very fast about ability to go into action if the need arises.

Not that I wouldn't rather have a bunch more gun than a Casull...

:), Art

MeekAndMild
June 11, 2006, 01:22 PM
Art, since this thread opened I have talked with a fellow who actually did hunt black bear with a pistol. He used a .44 magnum and hard cast bullets. He is also the owner of a S&W .500 magnum and says that he's selling it but was unclear on the reason.

Another aquaintance, a FFL, said that the .454 has about twice the muzzle energy of the .44 magnum, though he recommends a short barreled .44 magnum, the S&W mountain gun, for easy portability when out berry picking. This is a point, as it might be just as easy to carry a rifle as one of those big hunting pistols.

I'm wondering about the 45 ACP using hardball ammo? Isn't it similar to the .44 special?

Rich Lucibella
June 11, 2006, 02:25 PM
Meek-
I'm not Art, but I can tell you that Garrett's 44 mag hard casts will get the job done....but that's not the issue, unless you're hunting. The question is "How Quickly?" in a bear attack situation.

Even the 454, under perfect conditions, is not likely to drop a bear in its tracks unless skeleton or nervous system is seriously impaired. Moving to defensive handgun calibers...there's virtually no chance of taking out the nervous system or skeleton, except by fluke.

Just how much time do we all think we have to incapacitate a charging Brown Bear before we become his last supper? I'd go for Pepper Spray and Prayer before a 9mm or 45 Auto. ;)
Rich

roscoe
June 12, 2006, 12:31 AM
I will say that this is the first time I have heard anyone say that shotgun slugs do not offer enough penetration. You should check the box o truth:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/

The shotgun slug outpenetrates everything but the 45-70.

The comment about not having enough time to respond if the bear really wants you is dead on, in my opinion. You just have to hope he is not stalking you.

I would also choose the .357 with 200 grain hardcast loads - it is a good balance of weight, recoil control, and it will far, far, far outpenetrate the 9x19. The load will also be far more likely to be able to break a bone. There are quite a few people who carry the .357 in the Alaskan wilderness. 9x19 is a good antipersonell round, but bear? Not me, friend.

Just how many rounds do you think you will be able to get off before the bear gets you? If you must go with an autoloader, get 10mm, it is pretty close to .357 and there are hardcast loads available.

razorburn
June 12, 2006, 01:48 AM
Don't forget, there's a big difference between reaction time on a formal practice at the range or course, and out in the woods. When you're on the range, you're know exactly what's going to happen; where to go, when you're going to go, what you're going to do, you're just standing around, waiting for your turn to shoot. In the woods, you won't know when the bear is coming, where he'll be coming from, or if he's even going to come, until the attack's already started. This will at least double or triple your reaction time. And with it's speed you're lucky to get any shot at all. Brown bears can weigh as much a 2500lbs. While the 9mm is a nice cartridge for defense against people, it was never designed to deal with a beast like that. So I'd want a cartridge with the power make that one shot count. If a handgun, a .454 casull at a minimum, or a .500 S&W magnum.

PeaceOfficer
June 12, 2006, 01:51 AM
While I'm no hunter, I would think the issue at hand here is which bullet is the most likely to get a CNS or broken bone shot. Once you find a list of acceptable bullets, the next priority would most likely be choosing the one you could shoot at the highest rate of fire. The last priority would be finding one with the largest capacity of rounds.

Some would prefer a revolver, due to the opinion of most that they would likely get off no more than 4-5 shots.

MeekAndMild
June 12, 2006, 10:01 PM
The shotgun slug outpenetrates everything but the 45-70. IIRC the only 45/70 revolver that is really designed to take the punishment is the Magnum Research BFR. But it is a single action, designed for hunting. I think that what we're looking for here is either a DAO semiautomatic without an external safety or a DA revolver.

The main point I see here is that when the bear jumps out you don't want to think about things, you just want to have a gun that you aim and pull the trigger. I don't know any modern shotgun made that has a 'pure panic' DAO/no external safety mode.

Rich Lucibella
June 12, 2006, 10:34 PM
500 Linebaugh.
Hamilton Bowen conversion of Ruger Redhawk.
4' Barrel
Ashley Mid Dot Sights
Lanyard
One Ounce of lead at 1300 FPS; the ballistics of the original 45-70 rifle round.

Mean, ugly, unforgiving...and also completely recoiless and full auto when a Bear is at spit swapping distance.

YMMV....but I got mine! :D
Rich

Eghad
June 12, 2006, 10:41 PM
I saw a video about a black bear invading a manhattan Suburb. According toi the video human food is like viagra for black bears, increasing the birthrate. It said California went from 5,000 Black Bears to around 35,000 now :eek:

Guess we might be able to purchase backyard hunting liscenses before long...lol

"A big black bear spent Tuesday morning in a tree above the courtyard of a condominium complex and as many as 400 people spent Tuesday morning watching it.

The show was over by 1:15 p.m., when an officer from the state Department of Environmental Conservation shot the bear, an estimated 300-pounder, with a tranquilizer dart, said Officer Paul Deoul of the Spring Valley police. It tumbled 25 feet to the ground but was unhurt, he said."

A big black bear spent Tuesday morning in a tree above the courtyard of a condominium complex and as many as 400 people spent Tuesday morning watching it.

The show was over by 1:15 p.m., when an officer from the state Department of Environmental Conservation shot the bear, an estimated 300-pounder, with a tranquilizer dart, said Officer Paul Deoul of the Spring Valley police. It tumbled 25 feet to the ground but was unhurt, he said.

http://www.1010wins.com/pages/43499.php?

Socrates
June 20, 2006, 05:59 PM
Let's see. Brown bears differ in size.
Guy in this picture is 6 feet tall. These are russian bears.

http://image05.webshots.com/5/8/27/14/60982714pWCPim_ph.jpg

You sound like a police officer, or mil, so carrying a full auto 9mm might be annoying enough, and quick enough, to turn a bear, but, it might also just **** them off. Hitting a bear with a half pound of lead, or jacketed bullets, in full auto, might deter the attack. I assume that's what that 33 round mag is for, a selective fire handgun?

A word about Penetration. I have a .510 Linebaugh Maximum, that shoots 525 grain bullets, at up to 1550 fps. Yes, it is the most powerful handgun in the world, S&W jive to the contrary. That generates about 2600 ft-lbs of energy, and, about 52 inches of bear penetration.

You can download that same bullet, to say, 1100 fps, and have it be MORE effective then at the higher velocity, with the same penetration. While no bears, this round has been used on bovines up to 1600 pound asian buffalo, with devastating results. These bullets hit with about the same effect on cape buffalo, etc. as a 375 H&H rifle.

That said, in our area, two monster bears, read 12-1400 pounds, both took 11 rounds of 375 H&H, before going down.

S&W guys are using a 700 grain bullet, but, stabilizing it can be a problem:
http://ballisticsupply.net/Portals/11097/700%20gr%20-%203-s.jpg

http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/Familyportrait3.jpg

http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/Familyportrait3.jpg
.510 Maximum, target grade accuracy .475 Linebaugh, done on FA 83 by Jack Huntington., 45/454 Seville done by Linebaugh/Huntington, 45 Supers, and 357 snubby.
I'd carry one of the smaller guns to stuff in the bears mouth, after the 9mm didn't work. OH, my smallest gun
has ballistics equal to, or superior to your 9mm, and, I think that's just a stop the pain gun after the bear gets to me, or, at least disrupt his dinner with a little lead in the teeth.

My point simply is that your idea of a 'deep penetrating bullet' used against humans, becomes a shallow penetrating bullet, or no penetration, on a large brown bear. I've never heard
of a 9mm bullet coming even close to these guns in penetration tests, and, they can certainly be turned by a large browns bones.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

If you look at the above tests, the closest you come to 9mm is .38 special, with 8" of paper penetration. Giving
it a big boost in speed, figure maybe, it will go 16" in newspaper, and bone. The .500's give you about 4 FEET, or 48-52" inches, with hard cast bullets, or solids. The .475's are no joke, and, the 44 or 45's with 325-360 grain flat nosed bullets will go 38" inches of cape buffalo. Observed hits on bovine indicate the big bullets are REALLY noticed, and take affect, and may turn, and get the animals attention.

I hope your gun goes full auto.

S
PS
Another alternative is a Ruger #1, in 510 Wells. That's a 6 pound rifle, with a blown out weatherby 460 case, to 510.
It will recoil enough to knock you out of the bears path, and, if you hit the bear, it's going to knock him, and you, down, at the same time. Chances are, he's going to get right back up, but, at least you'll have time to aim, perhaps reload, and hit him again. My point is, in a bear charge, you need a rifle that will hit the bear hard enough to knock him down, so you can place your second shot, accurately. A double rifle, starting in 450 N2 is the starting point, and, the 458 Lott is the most economical
stopping rifle going. People also hotrod .458 winmags, and, with 500 grain bullets, at 2150 fps, they are starting
stoppers. Shotguns just don't have the penetration, or energy, to really knock down a bear.

PPS
IIRC, the 9mm that broke the 'bear's' leg, was on a cub brown bear.

moose fat
June 25, 2006, 12:44 AM
Bigger is Better and avoidance is even better yet.

Its salmon fishing season here on the Yukon, the fish racks have salmon drying and the smoke houses are are mostly full of smoked fish. Reading all these threads started me thinking about how I deal with bears.

I live, work and play surounded by bears, big ones, little ones, black ones and brown ones. There is a zillion square miles of country for bears to roam around in and they go where-ever they want to, like through and around our village especially now. No bears yet but, when they are seen somebody usually makes an anouncement on the VHF radio to warn parents to keep track of the children. We keep track of where and when, if its just passing through or raiding someones smoke house. We know about where it is.

Para bellum , if you're going for a walk in the woods find out if any one has seen it and go in the opposite direction. If it, your picture showed momma and baby bear (definately stay away:eek: ), is hanging around a certain area most likely because of a food source. Don't go there.:rolleyes:

The Obvious,

Now, if you are walking in the woods;:)
Make noise, anounce your pressence give Mr. Bear a chance to get off the trail. Use your senses look for signs/tracks,old or new. Take a guess at how old, you'll be close. Bears stink (!) like a wet dog. I smelled one over a quarter mile away. They like to root under logs, they sound like a pig rooting and snuffling. Baby bears sound like a goat bleating or a baby crying, if you hear that turn around and leave:eek: . Bears have poor eye sight, make it notice you, don't startle it thats when they may attack or run away, usually they run away, usually.

Avoidance! Hope this helps

Para Bellum
June 25, 2006, 02:40 AM
While I'm no hunter, I would think the issue at hand here is which bullet is the most likely to get a CNS or broken bone shot. Once you find a list of acceptable bullets, the next priority would most likely be choosing the one you could shoot at the highest rate of fire. The last priority would be finding one with the largest capacity of rounds.

Some would prefer a revolver, due to the opinion of most that they would likely get off no more than 4-5 shots.

That's exactly what I meant.
Thank you all for your time an thought.
Recently that specific bear I am thinking about has entered several villages and was seen by a large number of ordinary citizens in a densely populated area. Authorities now allowed shooting that bear. I don't think he will be an easy target...

ninemm
June 25, 2006, 11:15 AM
A Guide here in the US told me he thought a short barreled 357 mag was the best backup for black bear. He said your obvective should be to pull the trigger as fast as you can and put as many rounds as possible into the bear. He also recommended using the largest cast bullet you could handle in 357 and to not use something that was too much for you.

Welcome to the the Forum moose fat. What do you do that allows you to work, live and play around all of those bears?:eek:

Socrates
June 26, 2006, 01:59 AM
Ross Seyfried killed a buffalo with a gun identical to my .45 Seville. He used a 345 grain Kieth style bullet, at 1550 fps, in .45. The buffalo wasn't real impressed. It charged from 25 yards, taking 6 shots, and, dieing at a range of 2 feet. I figure cape buffalo, and a large brown bear to be real close as far as speed, and toughness. Ross was one of the best shooters on the planet at the time, and the buffalo still almost got him.

Why anyone would use a gun lesser then that is beyond me.
Why anyone would not take advantage of the .475's, and .500
's, and their stopping bullets, for a brown or buffalo, is also beyond me.


S

moose fat
June 26, 2006, 09:07 PM
Wow, are these the problem bears? Bruno was shot this a.m., I just read on an internet home page.

So Momma, three baby bears and big brother are still cruising around.

I think 9mm is too small. But, that is what you got. You can shoot lots and fast. What has to happen, is to stop the attack. Operative idea, stopping the attack. A charging bear will be comming at you, head, shoulders,a little bit of back and a little bit of the chest. Shoot dead in the middle of that sight picture. Don't stop shooting untill the attack is stopped.

What I carry when my family and I are out on the tundra berry picking, or swimming in the river is my .44mag S&W Mountain Gun and an 870 Rem. w/18"riffled slug barrel, full of slugs.

I practice and try to be prepared. Walking in the woods, up in alpine forrests or on the tundra is still safer than walking down some city streets.:)

Blammer
June 26, 2006, 09:10 PM
Not Bloody Likely!:rolleyes: But IF... I would
Carry a "Howda Pistol" .60 cal or better and announce my presence with BAGPIPES:p!!!

moose fat
June 26, 2006, 09:17 PM
I work in a village in bush Alaska. :cool:

Socrates
June 26, 2006, 11:30 PM
Mousefat:

Have you tried rap music, out of a boom box? I'm SURE that would clear the area for 100 miles.:D

S

moose fat
June 27, 2006, 01:09 PM
Whats' rap?

FirstFreedom
June 27, 2006, 01:54 PM
Just add a 'C' to the front, and that will explain it.

Rich Lucibella
July 1, 2006, 09:40 AM
Socrates-
Impressive collection. I have to be honest, though. My little 4" 500 Linebaugh absolutely destroyed my handgun shooting....took me nearly two years to relearn to shoot without occasional flinch. I'm now up to a 44 Mag with Garrett Hard Casts; I'd carry the Linebaugh in bear country without hesitation; but I'm not about to shoot it recreationally again.

All that said, and given the fact that you obviously know your big bores, please: more on the shooting experience with that monster .510 Linebaugh Maximum. Other than a shooting glove, are there any tricks to handling the recoil?
Rich

4V50 Gary
July 1, 2006, 09:43 AM
Rich - the same thing happened to me when I fired a non-ported .454 Casull. My wrists were shot after that and even a full powered .44 Magnum felt mild in comparison. Porting helps but if I'd also contact the ATF to affix a shoulder stock because I'd rather be a sissy with good wrists than a macho man who couldn't hold a pencil after shooting a hand cannon.

Harley Quinn
July 1, 2006, 10:39 AM
The 50 is easier to shoot then the 44 Mag. revolver.
Anyone wanting a pretty good caliber, the gun helps with the recoil. I highly recommend it.

I have shot the DE, they are easy on the wrist, but hard on the pocket book:D

HQ;)

razorburn
July 2, 2006, 02:54 AM
What's a boom box? You mean a subwoofer?

Art Eatman
July 2, 2006, 02:39 PM
I admit to little experience with a Raging Bull in .454 Casull. However, I found that the Weaver Stance, into which I'd reflexively go in a panic situation, makes that revolver quite easy to shoot rapidly and accurately. The owner, who shoots hot loads on a regular basis, can shoot IPSC-speed double-taps to target center and 3" to 4" spread at ten to fifteen yards. IOW, achievable.

Art

Bigfatts
July 5, 2006, 12:36 AM
While I do not think that the theory of deep penetration of a 9mm on a bear would be sufficient to defend my family, nor myself, if you must do it I don't think it will make that much of a difference over a larger caliber handgun. Because by the time you hear or see the bear charging through the woods at you, identify it as a threat and not a random animal running away from you because you startled it, draw your handgun and are able to fire(if you are able to do ANYTHING other than deficate), the bear will be on top of you. Just stick the gun down his throat and give him a little heartburn before you're digested. Maybe you will distract the bear long enough for a member of your family to run and get a real gun. :D

castnblast
July 7, 2006, 01:19 PM
I have never been in bear country but I used to manage an indoor shooting range, and had a guy claim his 9mm was unloaded...after pointing it at me:mad: I asked him to point it away and open the chamber...It went off, and richocheted off the GLASS counter and went into the wall. No joke. Personally, I carry a 44 mag when out hunting...We have ferral hog and cougar. And If I were to go to Alaska, I wouldn't take anything less than a 454 casul or a S&W 50. The 50 is my top choice for this purpose, and was what the gun was designed for.

Harley Quinn
July 9, 2006, 10:51 AM
That is very entertaining information.

Many rounds superior to the nine in power, blah blah blah. But if you are restricted to that round (as the original poster is) Then what?

I believe it is moot, and always will be.

I always felt that if I was to jump out of an airplne with an extension cord I would never get to the ground (because they are always catching onto something)
Just my last thought on this subject.:D

HQ

Death from Afar
July 9, 2006, 03:39 PM
Very interesting thread.

You Americans have some SERIOUS wheelguns!

Wouldnt a short barrel pump gun be a better choice all the same? It would weigh about the same. and if you stoked it full of buckshot you could deal to any bear, and any one playing rap in the woods.

Socrates
July 9, 2006, 06:38 PM
Welcome to America. We have laws that make it very difficult to protect yourself. 3./4's of Kalifornia won't issue concealed weapons permits. If you are attacked, defend yourself, you can pretty much count on loosing the gun, and maybe your right to own, for 3 years. It's called probation, since you would be carrying the gun illegally, despite a justified self-defense shooting. Bears, most of the time, have more rights then we do, or, a federal law that says carrying a gun in a Federal park is illegal, much less using it to defend yourself, or love ones.
I said all that to point out that the minimum length for a shotgun is at least 16" IIRC, and, it maybe 18.

You roll your dice, and you take your chances. Each gets to pick the chips they bring to the table.

S

Death from Afar
July 10, 2006, 04:09 PM
Bizarre.

I cant get my head round some of your gun laws. As I understand it , in some states, you can happilly go and buy an AR 15- but in California you cant. And if you are in a place that had things with teeth that want to bite you, you cant pack firepower to protect yourself. I would have thought that in a place with bears you would be able to protect yourself from them, let alone mountain lions, snakes etc etc etc.

Harley Quinn
July 10, 2006, 07:24 PM
Last week I was in Tahoe CA. Lots of second generation bears (garbage can)
Momma trains um and they can't go to the wild. They are pretty kicked back.

Last week they had an article about this young bear that climbed into a 1964 Buick Skylark Convertable. Picture shows him in the front seat behind the wheel.
He had eaten a pizza and drank a cup of Jack Daniels, finished a drink of vodka and some mix and a beer. It was a small cub.

He was pretty mello from the booze. Should of booked him 647f PC. Like they did half of the under age kids there that week.:D

No harm done to the car, $5000.00 Paint job.:eek: It was the talk of the town.

If someone would have shot it they would be in deep trouble.
Reminded me of the picture of Pres. T. R. don't shoot that cub.:D

Edit:
http://www.tahoedailytribune.com/article/20060704/NEWS/107040027&SearchID=73250273811134

HQ;)

geologist
July 15, 2006, 02:31 AM
I haven't read the entire thread so if someone has recommended the following, mea culpa.

Please take the time to read "Bear Encounter Survival Guide" by James Gary Shelton.

Gary is a former grizzly bear hunting guide who lives in Bella Coola, British Columbia, Canada, home to some of the highest density brown bear populations in the world.

For many years Gary has been researching bear attacks and documenting the same. He also gives training courses for outdoor field workers such as loggers, foresters, surveyors, geologists etc.

Much of his book is about understanding and interpreting bear behavior and bear habitat in the field. The book is very practical and is a must read for most BC field workers.

Shelton recommends .44 magnum handguns and above for brown bear, if and only if you have trained enough to be extremely proficient with it. Otherwise for brown bears, the minimum long gun calibre is .338 mag.

Google James Gary Shelton and you may be able to find a source for his books.

Harley Quinn
July 15, 2006, 04:21 PM
That would be to reasonable to do. We would then be without the ability to disagree and squabble and make fun of others with different ideas, that are not exactly like our own.:rolleyes:

I have read so many books that someone wrote that have helped me make decisions, based on what I disagree with:D

Seriously though, thanks for the tip I will check it out and may edit, if I find something interesting:D

HQ

Oregongundude
July 31, 2006, 11:16 PM
Empty a couple 17 round magazines into it's body and it's will bleed to death in a matter of minutes, maybe an hour at the most from 33 rounds in the body, using ball ammo from anything from a 9mm or above. Get a lucky shot through the heart and it will drop dead in a hurry. The point is get somewhere where it can't get to you and keep pumping rounds into it.

I have seen 4 bears in the wild hunting and I've spooked a couple mountain lions hunting in the Oregon Mountains and not one of the animals, big cat, or bears has wanted anything to do with me and has headed in a different direction in a hurry. I would think if a bear was willing to attack you it must have a reason most wild animal don't like human and try to avoid us at all cost. Some hungry big cats will attack on occasion, but I have never been concerned with Mountain lion unless there stalking me, when I surprise them in the woods they will leave in a hurry. Of course, I would fire upon them with my .308 first instead of a handgun and I would recomend a high powered rifle over any handgun in the wild. Most of time for Elk, or Deer it's a one shot affair with my rifle. Having to fire multiple handgun rounds at any animal is usually a last gasp effort at self defense and survival. :cool:

.308 high powered rifle balistics :Hornady 155-gr. TAP FPD FPS :2831 Energy/LBS 2760

My .308 will pentrate a bear's head I will take that to the bank.

samsmix
August 4, 2006, 04:19 AM
Hmmm...I prefer the 300gr TAP XYZ PDQ SMLE ASAP LMNOP......***?

Fat White Boy
August 5, 2006, 12:14 AM
I had always heard that you should carry pepper spray and have bells on your clothing so you don't surprise the bears when hiking in bear country. You can tell what kind of bears are in the area by their scat. If there are black bears, the scat will have, berries, grass, roots and maybe the bones of small mammals. If it is grizzly scat, it will also have berries, grass, roots, bones of mammals, bells and pieces of pepper spray cans in it...