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View Full Version : Just completed 2-day Quick Kill training


hso
May 29, 2006, 07:53 AM
My wife and a friend and I just completed Robin Brown's Integrated Threat Focused Training System (edited for accuracy) (Quick Kill) training here in E. TN and I've got to say that I we sure as shoot'n didn't waste our money.

Regardless of controversy or 'fave flavor' arguments surrounding Quick Kill everyone in the class, from LE to folks that had the most rudimentary of handgun skills, picked up the basic techniques very quickly. Those basic techniques cut our time from draw to bullets on target way way way down. Since very few of us are going to be walking around with gun in hand at low ready all the time I think that's an amazingly good thing (need an understatement "smilie").

From the "elbow up/elbow down" drill to "hip Quick Kill" to "da Zippa" (sorry, but I gotta tease Brownie on his Mass accent amongst all us Southerners) to "the Hammer" and on we learned techniques that put holes in paper fast and without using the sights at ranges from 6 feet to 30 feet while standing still or moving at an angle or straight onto the target. Heck, a buddy of mine that can't see his front sight or make out the holes in the targe as anything but black smudges without his glasses was able to keep nice groups on the paper all the time. He can't do as well with his glasses off with aimed fire!

The level of accuracy, i.e. how small the groups were, might not get the approval of people with lots of training and who expect groups equivalent of slow fire sight use, but we had folks that were producing groups of 1 and 2 inches at ranges of 12-15 feet using 2 hand QK shot at our own pace (not me, I grouped in the 4-6 in. range{Brownie scolded me for shooting too fast} ). Brownie showed us that he could make one ragged hole over and over again at that range and at further distances.

I shot just under 1,000 rounds in 2 days. Others shot 1,500 or more. It was just a question of how many big mags you had.

I see ways to improve the training for us noobs. Reviewing the material learned in the morning at the beginning of the afternoon after lunch would be very helpful. There's a lot done in a short period of time and you want to refresh the basic skills before getting into new things. We didn't do that the first day and I just didn't feel that I fell back into the flow of things as quickly after lunch as I would have if we had run a short string of practice on those morning techniques. To be fair, I mentioned this to Brownie and that's what he did on Sunday. We progressed very quickly from one technique to the next. (I mean very quickly.) I'd like to have slowed down to tighten up groups with a technique before we went on to the next. This was our chance to work on that perfecting each "tool" before we learned how to be passable with the next tool. Without 'adult supervision' those of us that are slightly dim (me especially) may not get better with each tool out of the big bag of QK tools we learned so I would have liked to have taken more time with each technique. Again, to be fair, there were plenty of folks doing just fine and I shouldn't expect the whole class to wait for me to get something down. Change the targets out more frequently. We shot a lot and we shot a lot fast. The targets get chewed up pretty quickly. Once we got better with a technique there were a lot of ragged holes chewed out of the target in a single magazine (did you hear the unspoken part about chewing holes in the target in a single mag without using our sights :D ) and I would have liked to pop some more paper up right away to see where the next mag was going a little better. You need to find a mag loader and bring it with you and you need to have practiced with it. By Sunday mid day I was in considerable pain from mag thumb and was cursing myself for having left my old style mag tool at home while the nifty new one I had pulled out of the wrapper Sat. morning lay on the ground discarded because of the base pads on my mags. If not for Paul Gomez my wife would not have gotten nearly as much from the class because not only did he help her with some basics and make sure of her safe gun handling, he loaded probably half her 4 Rami 8 round mags for her to keep her standing on the line so she could keep pace with the high cap boys (Paul, we are very much in your debt and you and your's are welcome in our home any time.).

I don't expect everyone to agree on everything. I especially don't expect people who take and give training to agree on everything. I don't think that there is one "Holy Grail" of self defense shooting. It's what works for you with the time you can spend training. What I can honestly tell you is that time to get bullets on target was cut way down for ranges that you and I would reasonably expect to be involved in a defensive shooting. I'd do the training again, and plan to in the fall.

Edited to add -

So that no one get's hung up on what the whole course is called Brownie reminds me that the title is -
Integrated Threat Focused Training Systems and covers Quick Fire, EU/ED, the zippper, the hammer, etc, etc

__________________

Sweatnbullets
May 31, 2006, 12:08 AM
hso, I'm very happy that you like the course....I knew that you would. Sure wish that I could have been there as an instructor. It was just not in the cards this time, maybe next time.:)

Thanks for taking the time to put down your thoughts. It is good to see that what we are offering is leading to such positive AAR'S.:cool:

theinvisibleheart
May 31, 2006, 07:45 AM
how much was the course, if I may ask? Does the same principle apply with long gun?

--John

bermo61
May 31, 2006, 08:11 AM
Its sad that so many people will buy a really nice gun for personal protection and not pay the money to get some training on how to be 10 times more effective with it. The course you took could save you or your wifes life and is easily worth the money spent.

No matter how proficient you think you are, I have found taking courses to have a sobering effect on what i think my skill level is. Every time I take one I realize i have a lot more to learn.

Kudos to you both for having the common sense to get trained right!

hso
May 31, 2006, 01:09 PM
Oh, there's a lot more training to be done. Threat Focused shooting is just one of the tools. My wife and I took a 1 day intensive gun shot wound care class and a 1 day intensive AK class with Paul Gomez already this year. We're looking forward to getting another class or 2 in once the weather cools down. Developing a basic skill with carbine, pistol as well as medically dealing with GSW is better money spent than on tons of toys with bells and whistles.

Sweatnbullets
May 31, 2006, 09:50 PM
invisible heart, group courses run $400 for two days. Private courses are a bit higher. Threat focused works very well with a long gun. Both the FAS system and the QK systems have very good long gun techniques

hso
May 31, 2006, 11:56 PM
Among all the things I've mentioned about the training I may not have emphasized the speed that the techniques gave us for getting hits on the target and that may be the most important aspect.

If we're training to defend ourselves then we have to train in anticipation of the conditions we would be expected to encounter. For civilians that means being attacked without provocation and without having gone into a situation knowing we'll have to draw a weapon. We'll almost always be behind the curve trying to catch up because we'll be reacting to a threat from someone else. The speed that I was able to draw and hit COM on the targets was startling to me! We walked through the technique then speeded up to the point that we were pushing ourselves to put holes in the target faster and faster after each "FIRE" command. It was amazing! We all had big stupid grins on our faces because we couldn't believe how quick we got. Equally amazing is that we were getting reproducible torso hits at that speed. In less than a second we were drawing and putting rounds on target. Brownie was much quicker and far more accurate as would be expected, but it gave us an example of what could be further accomplished with practice. Heck, he snapped shot after shot from the draw that made tight little groups of holes in the targets with amazing ease. I honestly believe that what I learned gives me a chance to catch up and even get ahead of a BG in a deadly confrontation.

I've done this when attacked with a screw driver once before because my meager martial arts training allowed be to react quickly enough to ward off a stab and stop my attacker even though they came "out of no where" without warning. I never thought about what I was doing because I didn't have time to think about what to do. If not for that physical training that allowed my body to act quicker than my attacker expected I might not be writing this.

If I practice what Brownie has taught us I believe he's given us a skill that will allow me to act quicker than an attacker would expect and to do so with enough accuracy that it might save my life one day if I'm set upon. Worth the time to practice.

theinvisibleheart
June 2, 2006, 03:56 PM
thanks for the cost info. Will check it for the future. I've always being interested in QK training since I've taken numerous Cooper based Modern Tech training classes and Simunition classes.

--John

hso
June 2, 2006, 08:03 PM
I wonder if there is any way to group handguns into grip angle so that you'd have an idea what would fit for point shooting? I ran a 20 yr old BHP, but also did fine with a Glock when I borrowed one out of curiosity in the class. My wife's Rami has a very different grip angle and the .45s certainly did?

Sweatnbullets
June 3, 2006, 12:56 AM
hso, I feel that if you understand the orientation of the barrel to the ground, you can make anything work. As long as you know what "parrallel to the ground" is with the weapon you have in your hand, you are good to go. Hand/eye cordination will take over very quickly once you understand the orientation.

hso
June 4, 2006, 08:35 PM
I ran 100 rounds through my P12 instead of the BHP I did the course with and had no trouble adjusting for the slightly different angle. With it's little alloy frame it's a bit of a beast, but I was going from holster to 10 holes in less than 1 1/2 seconds and the 10 holes ran up the center line into the head of the target.:D The tempo is a little different with the P12 than with the BHP, but Brownie's technique of letting the muzzle flip drive the gun up the torso works.

Mtnvalley3
June 10, 2006, 06:51 PM
As a fellow East Tennessean, newer shooter and confirmed training junkie, would you mind giving the contact info/website address for this course? It'd be nice to attend a class and stay both instate AND in the grandest of the TN's three grand divisions for a change.

Although I do have a 1-day class in Greeneville (Tac2) coming up in August, I'd welcome another semi-local option for quality training. I usually shlep to Nevada (Frontsight) and Ohio (TDI) and enjoy the classes far more than the traveling.

Edited to add: nevermind. Found it. Move along, nothing to see here. ;-)

Sweatnbullets
June 10, 2006, 09:33 PM
Mtnvalley3, I believe that there are plans for a TN course later this fall. If that TN course does not come up soon enough, you can add an extra day on to your next FS course and I will train you in the ITFTS here in Vegas.

Just an option, PM me if you are interested or at the site link below. If not, we will see you in Knoxville.