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garryc
May 13, 2006, 09:39 AM
Two days ago, at OSU medical center in Columbus Ohio, a Corrections Officer shot an inmate during an escape attempt. From the reports I've heard, the officer was re-applying restraints after an MRI when the inmate produced a sharpened toothbrush from..........a body cavity......... the back closet.....(You know) and stabbed the officer in the neck. The officer stepped back, drew his 38 and shot the inmate in the head. The 38 failed to penetrate the forehead and slid around. The inmate fled outside and the officer pursued. Grappling for the weapon the officer held it by the cylinder as the inmate attempted to gain control. Three other officers arrived and subdued the inmate. The officer was treated and released and the inmate underwent surgery.
I don't know what angle the round struck on but I consider this partly a failure of the 38. Like the 9mm I consider it fine as a ccw gun, given consideration of concealment, but if you are open carrying pack some more muscle. I can't really fault the officer for not firing outside because I don't know how many pedestrians may have been walking around.
I think that officers performing transports should be armed in a manner consistent with police. 40s+w or larger semi-auto, pepper gas and an asp. I also think my department should issue a holster that has more than just a thumb snap, like at least two retention factors. It would seem to me that these transport officers should be issued pistols that only they shoot, and care, for instead of one taken from an armory at random. But the liberal social workers who run my department don't seem to understand such concerns. It's," I found my collage diploma hanging on the wall but I can't find a clue."

Just my thoughts

armedandsafe
May 13, 2006, 10:05 AM
Son-in-law's father told me of shooting a fellow in the forehead with a .357, full power, factory FMJ load. Bullet followed the skull around to the back of his head and exited, without cracking or penetrating the skull.

Now, tell me again what size bullet is guaranteed to penetrate the skull?

Pops

garryc
May 13, 2006, 11:06 AM
There is no round that I can think of that is going to penitrate the skull 100% of the time. The point is what has better odds. The point of my comments was not just to bash the 38, but was a bash on our firearms training and equipment. What police agency uses a 38 special as a main line gun? None I can think of. Our transport officers face risks that require better training and equipment. In transports you could be going to an outside hospital, a funeral trip in the center of the "hood". You could face an assisted escape when you are facing armed assailants. Mass escape or you could be facing someone trying to kill the inmate. You could be assaulted simply because you are wearing the uniform.
Do you want to hear something that really sounds dumb but comes from higher up? When our third shift officers have to random urine test they go to East Cleveland, (Now Thats a Crime Ridden Area) Driving a state vehicle, in uniform and UNARMED!!! Thats how in touch our administration is with reality

roger-ruger
May 20, 2006, 01:14 AM
:barf:
A properly loaded factory ammo be it a 9mm, 38spl., 380, would definitely penetrate a skull. While an improperly loaded ammo, reload or factory which is underloaded might just graze your forehead.

Now would someone be kind enough to try to shoot their own head with a 22? :D

GMG1
May 21, 2006, 04:58 AM
Last month, one of my coworkers shot an escaping inmate in the back of the head, from about 20 feet, as the subject was running. The round (.38 jhp) entered the back of the skull, and exited just below the eye socket.
In that instance, it worked beautifully, but as I am sure the officer was aiming for center mass, as per training, it was pure luck the the shot made contact at all ( head = small target at 20 feet and running).
I think the luck factor is more decisive than choice of caliber.

My 2 cents worth.

garryc
May 21, 2006, 07:07 AM
As you have read I said "From what I've heard" rumor mills being what they are, what I heard was inaccurate. Turns out he grazed the "goats" neck.
Now the question is, when the "goat" brings his civil suit will the AG's office defend him. I've been told that the AG won't defend people in the ODR+C unless they are very high up. Now the C/O would likely win the suit, but how much will it cost him to defend it. He could counter sue, but for what, the "goats" 20 bucks a month.
If the "goat" is indigent, and he likely is, it costs him nothing to file the suit. He has his inmate "lawyers" to do the work for him and frankly they often do a fairly good job.
The general thought among the officers is that if the suit is brought and the AG does not defend him, it will be a cold day in hell before another officer pulls a trigger on an escaping inmate. While you can be severely disciplined for not firing on him, given the aspects of the case, you cannot be disciplined for missing. As I've said in these forums, we do not train under stress, nor do we fire on moving targets. If the state does not back the officer up on all legal levels then pluck 'um.

trigger happy
May 21, 2006, 08:14 AM
I wonder why most prisons have stayed with the .38 special ?

is it cost ?

garryc
May 21, 2006, 08:38 AM
Cost yep, our 38's are old OSP returns. Beat to death. Many problems and very little maintenance

HiPowering Along
May 21, 2006, 04:25 PM
A properly loaded factory ammo be it a 9mm, 38spl., 380, would definitely penetrate a skull. While an improperly loaded ammo, reload or factory which is underloaded might just graze your forehead.

Now would someone be kind enough to try to shoot their own head with a 22?:D

I'm not giving myself the headache that some genius gave himself one night - "Oh, my girlfriend doesn't love me anymore, so I'm going to shoot myself in the forehead with my .22LR rifle..."

Darwin missed one.

Bad angle or just a hardheaded idiot - deflected off the forehead, ran around under the scalp to the base of the neck, bleeding like a stuck pig and had one heckva headache. You could see the powder burns and stippling around the entrance wound - wasn't from a distance by any means.

"Here's your sign..."

It's stuff like the above that makes me miss my old EMS days - watching Darwin Award idiots try for the gold medal. <sniff> :D

chrisandclauida2
May 21, 2006, 11:36 PM
your ag office should be requierd to defend him if the shooting was justified. all of us know an escape attempt is a death warrent.not to mention the adw for the shank. this said you should tell your freind to get a fop lawyer[join if he isnt] or depending on the union a lawer from there.

GlocksRfun
May 22, 2006, 01:07 AM
Now, tell me again what size bullet is guaranteed to penetrate the skull?


.50 BMG

GMG1
May 22, 2006, 05:02 AM
If you follow your government agencies policies in the shoot, you do not need to worry, AG will be on your side, at least from the cases I have seen.
When (not if) you are sued, you have vicarious libility, meaning that they can not go after you as an individual (assuming the shoot was within the scope af your duties), and so they will attack the legislature that made the laws that justified your shooting.
I have seen it a few times.

vtfire
May 25, 2006, 06:02 AM
"your ag office should be requierd to defend him if the shooting was justified. all of us know an escape attempt is a death warrent."

In our state, we are not allowed to use leathal force on an escaping inmate, unless during the course of his escape, it is known by you that he has used leathal force in the process of his/her escape attempt. That would have been met in the above incident with the shank to the neck. By no means are we allowed to shoot a fleeing inmate without that criteria having been met. Good or bad, that is what we have to abide by so that we are not wearing a number.

On the positive side, our dept. issues sig 229 .40s&w DAO. No complaints here, and while it could always be better, we do have a fairly good weapons training unit.

buzz_knox
May 25, 2006, 07:52 AM
A properly loaded factory ammo be it a 9mm, 38spl., 380, would definitely penetrate a skull. While an improperly loaded ammo, reload or factory which is underloaded might just graze your forehead.

Full power factor loads can and have failed to penetrate the skull. There is no "definite" where firearms are concerned except that Murphy definitely will show up.

U.S.SFC_RET
June 20, 2006, 09:00 PM
Let me see, the Officer was shackling him alone. Where was the other Officer?

garryc
June 24, 2006, 06:05 AM
Let me see, the Officer was shackling him alone. Where was the other Officer?

From what I understand the other officer had a pace maker and could not be in the area of a MRI

SOSARMS
June 24, 2006, 06:51 AM
I have recent experience where a friend of mine was shot by her husband with a 380 auto . Of the 4 shots , 3 were through and through including one through the skull.
Isn't it true that of assasins that most often the weapon of choice is a .22 in the back of the head???? Thought i have read that some time ago...

chemist308
June 25, 2006, 02:00 AM
Last month, one of my coworkers shot an escaping inmate in the back of the head, from about 20 feet, as the subject was running.
That just doesn't sound right, somehow...

GMG1
June 25, 2006, 05:57 AM
The officer I mentioned earlier has been cleared through the PD and IA. He was within the law and within department policy.:)

4V50 Gary
June 25, 2006, 08:42 AM
I've read of .58 caliber lead minie balls doing the same as the correctional officer's bullet. Just goes to show that bullets don't necessarily work. What we need are Captain Kirk's phasers which work 100% and never miss their intended target. :p

NukemJim
June 26, 2006, 08:51 PM
A properly loaded factory ammo be it a 9mm, 38spl., 380, would definitely penetrate a skull. While an improperly loaded ammo, reload or factory which is underloaded might just graze your forehead.

Uhmm..... you might want to check out Jim Cirillo's book Guns, Bullets, and Gunfights: Lessons and Tales from a Modern-Day Gunfighter (Boulder, Colo: Paladin Press, 1996).

The human skull varies greatly in the thickness and density of the bone. The skull's rounded shape frequently causes bullets to be deflected away from the brain. It is not unusual for there to be an entrance wound on the forehead and an exit wound in the occipitul region with the bullet never penetrating the skull but merely travelling between the flesh and the bone. If the settings on the CT Scan are adjusted you can frequently see the path the bullet takes.

NukemJim

GMG1
June 27, 2006, 05:37 AM
It seems that shots to the back of the head work quite well...just point and say LOOK...

buzz_knox
June 27, 2006, 08:02 AM
It seems that shots to the back of the head work quite well...just point and say LOOK...

You mean, distract someone so you can execute them?

RERICK
June 27, 2006, 08:32 AM
Hey garry how long have been a CO.Because if you think your department cares about your safety than think again.I know mine doesn't.All they care about is the money.:eek:
God forbid you should get some decent equipment.
And vtfire when was the last time you were issued a weapon on any kind of a trip.There I said it.

garryc
June 27, 2006, 11:37 AM
14 years

RERICK
June 27, 2006, 02:59 PM
What happened then should not surprise you.The guy without the weapon is the one who should have been shackling the inmate not the one with.At least thats how we do it.

GMG1
June 29, 2006, 06:07 AM
Well, Buzz, if it is an inmate trying to escape from me....I will not waste time on distractions.

buzz_knox
June 29, 2006, 08:27 AM
Are the rules different for escaping prisoners as for fleeing felons? I know the Supreme Court was clear on when deadly force could be used to apprehend felons, I'm just not sure if the Garner doctrine applies the same to prisoners.

M14fan
June 29, 2006, 06:14 PM
I have seen documentation of .38s, .357s, .25s, 9mms and others failing to penetrate the human skull. The forehead is one of the thickest and strongest bones in the body. Even properly loaded rounds can fail to penetrate if the angle of entry is sufficiently shallow.
I have also seen (firsthand) head shots with .45 that walked into the ER and one kid who shot himself in the head with a .22. All he managed to do was sever both optic nerves.

GMG1
July 2, 2006, 07:01 AM
State law here allows deadly force to be used to prevent any inmate escape from any inclosed government correctional facility or jail ( including subjects that are being transported ) within the state (adults, anyway). They do not have to have a weapon , or pose a threat. I know of at least one other state that I worked in that had the same law. I assume that since states have the authority to have such laws, then the federal government must allow the individual states to determine when leathal force may be used to prevent the escape of not only convicted prisoners but also pretrail detainees.
We are going off subject, so I will not post any more on this thread, regarding this subject.

nefshooter
July 6, 2006, 08:28 AM
In our state the PC reason is we are to shoot to stop not to kill i think the real reason is alot of the officers can't handle a full house 357 load. It may have come out different if he would have double tapped center mass. Plus we have 2 officers when at a hospital the 2nd officer holds both weapons when we are close to inmates.

RsqVet
July 6, 2006, 09:08 AM
Um it's an intresting point about the other officer having a pace maker, not it's just speculation on my part however obviously an armed officer could be nowhere near the MR unit (big magnet and steel gun) equals no good.

I have been in a bunch of MRI units and most ahve blind corners and are kind of folded up into someplace out of mind in the building designers head.

If I had to guess the perp dam well knew this and took advantage of the officers distance and time away from direct observation to make extra ready for such an attack.

Dam sure is ashame the round underpenetrated

What preytell was this fine fellow needing an MRI of? Anyone know, he shure sounds healthy enough.

Sarge
July 6, 2006, 09:10 AM
I have been privy to several of these incidents over the years, where the bullet skips off the noggin bone and goes skittering off under the scalp. Wish I could recall all the calibers, but I'm sure one was a .22 LR solid, another was a .380 and yet another involved a .38 with JHP ammo- probably 125 grain since that what the involved agency was issuing in those days.

I have also seen a number of folks rendered quite dead over getting their bell rung with .22's, .38's and the like. It's all about the impact angle, and if the bullet shape/construction is rounded/soft, I believe it contributes to deflection.

The SWC is about as likely to chop through at oblique angles as anything out there, or so I have found by shooting a couple hundred pounds of them at random objects and game over the years.