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tshadow6
May 5, 2006, 03:57 PM
An article I read in a gun magazine encouraged the carrying of a small "push " style knife. The knife was similar to the "Urban Pal" push knife. Does anyone use/carry such a small fixed blade? Do they come in handy? I will more than likely buy one, since I haven't bought a knife in nearly two months, but I want to be able to rationalize it.

Dre_sa
May 5, 2006, 04:40 PM
yeah i carry one of those stiff K.I.S.S knives made by C.R.K.T.
im happy that i have never had to use it in the 5 years ive been carrying it. i did however prepare to make use of it one night about 2 years ago. i was sitting in a group and some drunks came up and started making trouble. luckily the situation ended without any problems.
as this is actually a S.D weapon, it barely ever leaves its home on my belt, although i have used it for some aritrary cutting jobs when it was the only implement at hand.
they do come in useful, but for general cutting purposes i would suggest something cheap and replaceable

rapier144
May 5, 2006, 04:45 PM
I just bought and started carrying a Ka-Bar TDI and i love it. It is by far the "fastest" knife to get into action i've ever carried. I would recommed it to everyone. I carry mine on my weak side just in case i need a little help retaining my pistol.

joab
May 5, 2006, 05:13 PM
I carry the MiniPal.
About a 1" push knife

I'd love to find a disguised kneck knife like the crucifix knife the Mexican kid carried in Bararosa

stephen426
May 5, 2006, 06:04 PM
While I don't always carry my gun (don't hang me here), I always carry my knife. While it is ultimately for self defense, I end up using it all the time. I carry a Benchmade 710 (http://www.benchmade.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=710) which is the best damn knife I have ever used. It has Benchmade's patented Axis Lock (http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/locking_mechanisms.asp) which is super smooth and easy to open with one hand. Closing is also very easy and can be done with one hand. The profile is very compact making it easy and comfortable to carry around all day. It has an excellent blade made of 154CM (http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/our_blades.asp) which comes extremely sharp and holds it edge very well. It is easily sharpened but Benchmade has the lifesharp guarantee (http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/lifesharp_service.asp)where they will sharpen the knife for you for $5 the first knife and $2.50 each additional knife. The knife can be used as a kubaton (blunt strinking device) when closed for less than lethal defense since it has stainless steel liners. The handles are made of G10 laminate (http://www.benchmade.com/about_knives/materials.asp)and offer an excellent grip. My knife is half serrated making it useful for a variety of

I know it sounds like I work for Benchmade but I don't. I have been carrying this knife for about 5 years already even though I have about a dozen other knives. Pretty much the best damn knife I 've ever used.

In a close quarters (contact distance) situation, I would probably grab my knife before grabbing my gun. I would try to grab a hold of the gun arm first, grab my knife and cut the gun arm across the wrist (down stroke) (hopefully sever tendons and nerves to make him drop the gun). If the bad guy does not drop the gun, he'll get a second cut in the inner bicep area (up stroke)(maybe hit the brachail artery and more nerves). I doubt the bad guy will still be holding the gun but if he is, the third cut will be the throat (backhand stroke). By that time, it won't matter if he is holding the gun.

Knives don't run out of bullets. They are dangerous in an arc rather than just a vector. Knives are silent. The greatest weakness is limited range so if its further than contact distance, go for the gun.

leadcounsel
May 5, 2006, 06:21 PM
I find that I always like to have some weapon available whether it be a gun or knife. Sometimes it's difficult to include a gun in my dress or impractical depending on the engagement or illegal (for instance in a bar) so I always carry a boot knife or a folder.

I like carrying the combonation of gun + knife best, but don't always do so.

Never had to use either in self defense.

Often use the knife as a tool.

Bill DeShivs
May 5, 2006, 07:44 PM
I'm seriously into knives in a professional way.
I don't advocate using a knife for self defense. If the knife becomes a weapon of opportunity when that's all you have available, then so be it.
But to say " In a close quarters (contact distance) situation, I would probably grab my knife before grabbing my gun. I would try to grab a hold of the gun arm first, grab my knife and cut the gun arm across the wrist (down stroke) (hopefully sever tendons and nerves to make him drop the gun). If the bad guy does not drop the gun, he'll get a second cut in the inner bicep area (up stroke)(maybe hit the brachail artery and more nerves). I doubt the bad guy will still be holding the gun but if he is, the third cut will be the throat (backhand stroke). By that time, it won't matter if he is holding the gun.

Knives don't run out of bullets. They are dangerous in an arc rather than just a vector. Knives are silent. The greatest weakness is limited range so if its further than contact distance, go for the gun." Is pure folly. It would probably get you shot! You might be able to do it if you know the person and know the gun was unloaded. I'm sorry, but I doubt that you would be able to think this way this quickly. Truly fighting with a knife is a martial art, and requires quite a bit of training.
Knives are wonderful tools, but guns are much better for self defense.
Bill

steelheart
May 5, 2006, 08:02 PM
Not exactly a hide away knife, but once I had to draw my Cold Steel Recon Scout (7.5" blade) on a guy who was getting ready to invade my personal space in a parking garage one night.

He got religion real quick.:D

308Enfield
May 7, 2006, 08:37 PM
I always have a couple of knives on me, a big Swiss Army knife for tools (I work in IT) and a little Hen & Rooster folder for everyday cutting chores. I have to agree with Bill that unless you really know what you're doing knives aren't a really good choice for SD. I've had some training on fighting with knives and defending against knife attacks when unarmed in martial arts, but I'm very much an amateur. Knife fighting is a demanding practice, and unless you dedicate lots of time to learning from a good instructor I think you'd be in for an unpleasant surprise in a real-life situation. I'm not questioning anybody's qualifications, if you really know how to use a knife than you've got a good second line of defense, but if you haven't been trained you should think twice about how safe you are.

Also, I can't speak for other areas but in Tennessee blades over 4" long are considered concealed weapons. Also, carrying a fixed blade can get you charged with, I think the phrase is "intent to go armed." For any of you who are carrying knives for SD, I'd recommend reading up on your state laws. I think its more than a little silly that I'm licensed to carry a pistol but can get arrested for carrying a Bowie knife, but that's the law and its important to know it and follow it.

Bill DeShivs
May 7, 2006, 10:10 PM
Mr. 762- where in Tenn?
Bill

tshadow6
May 8, 2006, 08:42 PM
Well guys, I resisted temptation long enough. I found an Urban Pal on ebay for a total of $20.55 I should have it in a few days. It should be a nice "just in case" item to have.

oldbillthundercheif
May 8, 2006, 10:17 PM
Anyone who carries a knife for self-defence needs to train with it constantly. Otherwise you will be cut to ribbons by the next hobo you run into. Hell, you will probably be cut to ribbons in a knife-fight that you "win", no matter the circumstances.
Acquire a "red-gun" version of the knife you carry (or something fairly close, you may have to substitute a "red" k-bar for your super-commando XZY). You will also need a bucket of paint, several white t-shirts, and a friend willing to invest in simmilar items.
Then proceed to slash at each other until you get good at it...

Do this or very bad things will happen when the brown substance flys into the rotors.

stephen426
May 9, 2006, 10:35 AM
Is pure folly. It would probably get you shot! You might be able to do it if you know the person and know the gun was unloaded. I'm sorry, but I doubt that you would be able to think this way this quickly. Truly fighting with a knife is a martial art, and requires quite a bit of training.
Knives are wonderful tools, but guns are much better for self defense.


Bill,

I understand where you are coming from and I respect your opinion. The problem I see is trying to outdraw someone who already has a gun on you and is so close that expecting him to miss is practically impossible. If I thought I was just going to be robbed, hell, I'll just give him my wallet and be done with it. Why even resist and put myself at risk over a couple of bucks? If I feel he is going to shoot me anyways, I sure as hell will go down fighting.

I am trained in martial arts and am in decent physical shape. While I am not an expert on disarming an armed attacker, we did go over some disarming techniques. First and foremost, you have to get out of the line of fire. By faking submission, you should look for an opportunity to move your body out of the line of fire and control the gun arm. While this is risky, you would be surprised that is can be done relatively easy for someone not expecting resistance. Like I said, bullets are only dangerous in a single vector and I sure as hell would not want to be in line with that vector. Once you control the gun hand however, there is no advantage. Consider taking some Aikido or Jujitsu classes and you may be surprised how easily you are disarmed (please make sure you are using dummy guns or triple check to make sure the gun is empty). There is actually a move to break the attackers wrist and turn the gun on him. A knife would also be highly advantageous in close quarters provided that you could access it quickly and one handed. Like I said earlier, if it is not contact distance, it is better to use a gun or not resist unless you are sure you have a chance to clear leather without getting shot. If you try to disarm a knife weilding attacker, prepare to get cut up. The best thing is to create some distance and shoot the SOB.

Arizona Fusilier
May 11, 2006, 01:40 PM
I carried a Mini-Pal on my spare key chain, just because I got it as a present. Never used it though.

I'm normally not without a knife of some type.

CTKurt
May 12, 2006, 10:23 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/ctkurt/autostryker.jpg
I carry this every day. I'm sure a fixed blade would do nicely as well.

Mannlicher
May 20, 2006, 06:58 AM
I always carry a back up knife. I find it darn hard to clean my fingernails with a Colt Commander. :D

Blackwater OPS
May 20, 2006, 10:51 AM
In a close quarters (contact distance) situation, I would probably grab my knife before grabbing my gun. I would try to grab a hold of the gun arm first, grab my knife and cut the gun arm across the wrist (down stroke) (hopefully sever tendons and nerves to make him drop the gun). If the bad guy does not drop the gun, he'll get a second cut in the inner bicep area (up stroke)(maybe hit the brachail artery and more nerves). I doubt the bad guy will still be holding the gun but if he is, the third cut will be the throat (backhand stroke). By that time, it won't matter if he is holding the gun.

Knives don't run out of bullets. They are dangerous in an arc rather than just a vector. Knives are silent. The greatest weakness is limited range so if its further than contact distance, go for the gun.

+1 one for this, I carry a knife for the same reason as well as to aid in weapon retention.

Is pure folly. It would probably get you shot! You might be able to do it if you know the person and know the gun was unloaded. I'm sorry, but I doubt that you would be able to think this way this quickly. Truly fighting with a knife is a martial art, and requires quite a bit of training.
Knives are wonderful tools, but guns are much better for self defense.

So what would YOU do in that situation Bill? Try to draw your firearm and get distance on a guy that has already drawn? Now THAT would probably get you shot.

Bill DeShivs
May 20, 2006, 01:25 PM
More than likely, I would already have my gun in hand.
I'm not saying a knife is not a weapon. I'm saying it is a last ditch weapon of chance.
Bill

CWO4USCGRET
May 20, 2006, 07:52 PM
Agree with Bill; my knives I carry, in conjunction with my handgun, are defensive. If. in my opinion, it is time to bring out a weapon, then it will be my pistol. Understand this, knives are tools, but are also deadly force. I am armed with a handgun whenever I leave the house; either in uniform in the duty belt or in civvies, concealed. If I need to draw a weapon, then in my trained, professional opinion, the use of deadly force is a very strong possibility. I'm not trained in knife fighting; I am trained in the use of a pistol; if I have to shoot to stop I will...I can't see myself or my fellow officers using a knife to stop someone in a deadly force situation...my knife(s) are for opening boxes, and as a last ditch (if I have lost the use of my pistol...

stephen426
May 20, 2006, 08:06 PM
CWO4USCGRET and Bill DeShivs,

Let me clarify my point... I would only pull my knife if someone already had a gun drawn on me and was at contact distance. It would be hard for either of us to miss each other if we got in a fire fight and the chances of me drawing and shooting him before he gets a shot off are slim to none. At contact distance, I would try to disarm him. First of all, I would fake compliance and try to catch him off guard. You need to remember that a gun is only dangerous in one vector. If I could control his gun hand and grab my knife, I'm pretty sure I would be better off than if we exchanged shots at point blank range. You can be 100% aware of your surroundings but it is almost always possible for someone to get the jump on you.

I'm not saying you should whip out a knife if the guy is a few feet away from you and already has a gun pointing at you. A knife is only useful at contact distances. In my opinion, it is always better to give up what money you have on you than risk getting shot. If the bad guy gives you the impression that he is going to kill you anyways, fight for you life. Even if you walk around with $10,000 in your wallet, hospital bills and lost wages will make that amount seem like chump change. I'm not sure what a funeral costs now a days but you might want to consider the cost of that too. The problem is I'm worth more dead than I am alive so my wife would probably sign a DNR in a heart beat... Just kidding.

Unless you guys are really such quick draw McGraws, I'd hand over the wallet.

MEDDAC19
May 22, 2006, 02:29 PM
At contact distance, I would try to disarm him. First of all, I would fake compliance and try to catch him off guard. You need to remember that a gun is only dangerous in one vector. If I could control his gun hand and grab my knife,

I fail to see why you would opt for your knife in this scenario instead of a gun. If you are in control of his gun hand and have the time to draw your blade why wouldn't you draw your gun and end it quickly and violently?

I carry a knife all the time, mainly for it's utility, but would only go to it first if there was no way to go for my gun. If I am already at gun point, and decide to resist, then I will try for the gun not the knife.

stephen426
May 22, 2006, 02:57 PM
The reason I would go for a knife instead of a gun is the typical attacker will have 2 hands as well. If you grab his piece and he grabs your piece, the stronger person should win. If you try to grab my knife, I can guarantee you that you will get cut. Another reason I would go for the knife instead is it is more accesible. I can do it one handed since it is designed to open one handed. I keep it clipped on my waistband behind my phone so it is concealed yet accesible. I don't carry my gun openly (do you think I would get attacked if I did) and I need my other hand to pull my shirt out. My main objective is to not get shot. If I can disarm the bad guy, I greatly improve my odds. Like I said, contact distance is a whole different ball game.

Limeyfellow
May 22, 2006, 03:55 PM
Knives are just so useful to have around. Everything from letter opening, cutting twine and rope, debarking branches for stakes in the garden, preparing food for the grill, opening plastic packaging, as a can opener with the right ones, and so on and also it can be used for self defense.

We really missed out when carrying the knife fell out of vogue, as its one of the most handy of utilitarian tools.

Bill DeShivs
May 22, 2006, 06:16 PM
Stephen
If your gun was small enough to be carried in your pocket, you could keep your hand on it. Then you could use your knife for cleaning your fingernails, opening boxes, or cutting string.
Bill

stephen426
May 22, 2006, 10:37 PM
Bill,

Like I said, I feel that it is easier to disarm someone with a gun that someone with a knife. Even with a pocket pistol, it is not easy to draw quickly. If the gun snags and you lose control of the attacker's gun hand, then you will likely get shot. I can draw and open my knfe very quickly with one hand. Bill, you respond how you want but for me, contact distance calls for a knife. I hope that neither of us has to find out what technique works better.

CWO4USCGRET
May 23, 2006, 11:23 PM
of your argument....

In a close quarters (contact distance) situation, I would probably grab my knife before grabbing my gun. I would try to grab a hold of the gun arm first, grab my knife and cut the gun arm across the wrist (down stroke) (hopefully sever tendons and nerves to make him drop the gun). If the bad guy does not drop the gun, he'll get a second cut in the inner bicep area (up stroke)(maybe hit the brachail artery and more nerves). I doubt the bad guy will still be holding the gun but if he is, the third cut will be the throat (backhand stroke). By that time, it won't matter if he is holding the gun.


I am a federal LEO; trained in firearms and unarmed defensive tactics. there are disarming and defensive tactics that can be taught and practiced; they do work; I took a cocked 1911A1 Colt .45 from a Detective Sgt during a training seminar - when the hammer dropped (on a verified empty pistol) the muzzle was pointed at his stomach.

In the real world, the bad guy won't stand while you draw your knife, let alone allow you to try to cut him...at the first sign of offense by you, I really think the bad guy will shoot you...I'm not advocating submission; believe me, I would fight for my life, but I don't think the bad guy would stand still if you went for your knife.

stephen426
May 24, 2006, 08:34 AM
In the real world, the bad guy won't stand while you draw your knife, let alone allow you to try to cut him...at the first sign of offense by you, I really think the bad guy will shoot you...I'm not advocating submission; believe me, I would fight for my life, but I don't think the bad guy would stand still if you went for your knife.

With all due respect, you you think that you can draw a concealed handgun without getting shot when a bad guy already has his gun drawn on you? I also learned some disarming techniques based on Aikido/Jiujitsu but would not feel 100% comfortable since I haven't practiced them in a long time. I use my knife daily (only on inanimate objects) and can deploy it very quickly. My main point is that a gun is only dangerous in a vector. As long as you are not in front of the muzzle, you are safe. If I HAD to do it, it would probably go like this: hands up, fake submission, half turn to "reach for my wallet", down block with my left and grab the wrist while grabbing my knife with my right, flick open the knife, proceed to slice and dice. I can pretty much guarantee that the bad guy won't be able to disarm me without getting cut up. I'm not going to count on trading gun shots at contact distance. It is better to not get shot at all.

One other thing is only to resist if you feel your life is in danger... PERIOD. I'm not going to risk getting shot for a few bucks and I hope no one here is crazy enough either. If it seems like the bad guy is a "doesn't like witnesses" type of guy, by all means, use whatever you have to fight for your life.

threegun
May 24, 2006, 12:28 PM
I have to agree with Stephen here. If you are fighting for control of the bad guys gun and are in the position to go for your own weapon, the knife is usually easier to access and much harder to get away without getting wounded. I am no knife expert but if I get on you with my cold steel tanto voyager serrated, the doctors better order more sewing thread. Since the knife is a slow killer slashes to areas that control movement are preferable as Bill D. suggested.

Stephen hit the nail on the head. The bad guy also has 2 arms to get your gun if you chose to draw it.

PaladinX13
May 25, 2006, 01:48 PM
Does anyone use/carry such a small fixed blade? Do they come in handy?I carried a Emerson La Griffe for a while... while it certainly feels effective as a defensive knife and deploys quickly without a thought, ultimately I stopped carrying it because it wasn't as useful for day-to-day chores needing a knife/SAK/multi-tool and seemed a woeful understudy to a pistol for me.

For myself, a multi-tool has come in handy far more than the awkward cutting surface of a claw-like blade like the Griffe or push-dagger knives like a Safe Keeper (which I also have purely for fun, never actually carry). The tool works well as a fist-load or kubotan... an okay knife if you have time to deploy it... but again is a last resort to my defensive firearm.

stephen426
May 25, 2006, 02:34 PM
I have to agree with Stephen here.
Stop the presses... We agree on something? I've have to change my stance now. Just kidding. Watch out or else your going to start installing lasers on all of your guns too! :p ;) :D

CWO4USCGRET
May 25, 2006, 05:03 PM
:D

Stephen,

We both have our opinions; I respect your opinion, but don't agree with it.

I want to clarify something that I feel you missed in my previous post; If I am pointing my gun at you I am going to do everything I can to maintain the tactical advantage over you. The most basic thing that I can do (other then the intimination factor of pointing a gun at someone - most people will submit, without a fight, when held at gunpoint.) is to try to maintain control of your hands. I am going to move tactfully and continue to try to maintain my edge...Something that just jumped out at me - Criminals are like Alpha Wolves, searching for the path of least resistance - in other words, finding a soft target. I don't know you, but if I was a bad guy I certainly would find easy prey; you may appear to me to not be a good target and I will leave you alone...and search out easier prey...if you move, or try to defend yourself, I would probably shoot first; remember, I am the baguy...

There are those too who react; many of them do come out winners which in my book is way cool...

stephen426
May 25, 2006, 10:11 PM
CWO4USCGRET,

I hope I never end up in a situation where you are robbing me. PM me a picture so I know not to resist. ;) I doubt most bad guys are as tactically knowledgable as you. I would definately size up the bad guy before I did something as foolish as trying to disarm an armed attacker. If the bad guy way out powers me, chances are I won't resist. Maybe I will just give him my wallet and walk away... then I will chase him down and shoot him like a dog!

My question is what difference is there between going for a knife and a gun if
If I am pointing my gun at you I am going to do everything I can to maintain the tactical advantage over you.?

This is not a debate as to resist or not to resist. The point I am trying to make is if you decide to resist and your attacker is within contact distance, a knife may be more effective. Like I said, if we are not dealing with contact distance, the gun is the best if not the only option.

I just make sure I walk around with my chest all puffed out and wear most intimidating tacticool outfit in hopes I don't look like an easy target.

CWO4USCGRET
May 25, 2006, 10:47 PM
I doubt most bad guys are as tactically knowledgable as you.

From 1985 - 1988 I was assigned to a Coast Guard Cutter in LA. Across the street from the base was a Federal Prison. I was part of the cutter's law enforcement team doing boardings at sea in suspected smugglers. We participated in quarterly LE Training including defensive tactics and weapons retention/take away. Due to the weather we would generally work outside. The inmates were usually observed the next day practicing counter moves to our tactics. Our prison system is like a grad school for criminal behavior. Unfortunately most seasoned criminals are better prepared then the typical victim.

I know this isn't about resist. My probable best move would be a palm heal strike to create space (to allow me the space to draw; followed by 2 to the chest, 1 to the head....I prefer a gun over a knife; but when the **** hits the fan I'll take what ever edge I can get.

guntotin_fool
May 28, 2006, 12:42 AM
If i can get a hold of the BG;s gun arm, I can get my gun out and get him.

I carry usually two knives all he time. one a pocket folder, the other a AGRussell Sting, a real one from germany. I also have several suits and jackets that have some stitching in them that holds a gerber mk 1 upside down just behind the lapel even in the court house where the make me open the coat and turn around the knife hides in the fold of the lapel. I collect rent and manage several apt buildings that have gone from being decent places to hell holes because section VIII housing rules have hamstrung us. A lot of bangers are scared of guns, but they really hate big sharp knives.