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Radiki
May 4, 2006, 10:45 PM
Okay, So I am working out the other day and I am running on my treadmill in my basement. Normally, I have the TV on but there was nothing on so really, I am getting bored. But getting in shape isn't always exciting. Anyways, I had a thought. I got an airsoft gun and set up some targets and put a bunch of ammo next to the treadmill. I put the targets both in front of me and off to the side. So I start trying to hit these. Let me tell you. That is a lot harder than it would seem. I am pretty sure that in real life if I had to hit something that was moving while I was moving, I probably would not hit it. My basement is pretty big so the targets were between 5-20 feet away. When I was walking or jogging slowly, I averaged I say about 55%-60% hit on a 10" target- worse off to the side maybe 35%-40%. But when I was running that dropped to probably less than ten percent. These were also stationary targets and I knew where they were and I was taking time in between shots. I want to try to make a contraption that swings or something. I know this isn't a perfect scenario, But since I don't really have any place near me to shoot other than at stationary ranges, this is probably the best I can do right now. Anyways.. REALLY hard. Anyone else ever try something like this? --- The downside, little yellow pellets, everywhere.:D

Skyguy
May 5, 2006, 10:39 AM
I am pretty sure that in real life if I had to hit something that was moving while I was moving, I probably would not hit it.
REALLY hard.

You're exactly right on, but......

There are a couple of experts who claim to have mastered the tactic of pistol shooting and 'hitting' on the run. Of course, that's shooting at known, stationary paper targets.
For 4 or 5 hundred bucks you too can study the run and shoot at the stationary paper target tactic. :)))

My own experiences tell me that it is nearly impossible to hit a threat while on the run.......and especially, if being shot at.

'Run and shoot' is hardly an offensive tactic and barely defensive.
It's best purpose is to make some noise while seeking cover....and we all can do that.


http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/small/teamlow.jpeg
.

Dre_sa
May 5, 2006, 03:45 PM
seem like a good idea, any means of practise is good in my books.
keep at it, let us know if you get any better!
and also try get that moving target up, that would be fun!

Sweatnbullets
May 5, 2006, 09:49 PM
We do teach shooting on the run, it was borne out of FOF, where both adversaries engaged each other at a full run. We know exactly what needs to be done to get hits in the most dynamic of encounters. Not only can we do it....we can teach you to do it. As it stands we are doing live fire courses and have not started teaching FOF......but it is an inevitable evolution.

The course reviews are coming in and we deliver exactly what we say we will. If not, we would be dead before we even got started. Our students are getting hits on the average of 95% of the time, at a full run, in all directions.

Shooting on the run is a threat focused skill (only.) If you are trying to do this with sighted fire you will not get there. This is why almost everyone says that it is not possible.

The phrase "you can not get there from here" comes to mind. Don't just believe me.....look at what our students are saying.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305

Skyguy
May 6, 2006, 12:40 AM
We do teach shooting on the run, it was borne out of FOF, where both adversaries engaged each other at a full run. We know exactly what needs to be done to get hits in the most dynamic of encounters.

I'll assume that you already know that FOF training does 'not' prepare one for the sympathetic nervous system overload and its ramifications that appear when someone is scared to death.
It may teach technique/tactics, but it cannot duplicate real life fear; screaming out loud-scared to death fear.

Although better than doing nothing, 'run and shoot' is quite an anemic offensive/defensive tactic. It's best use is to make noise while seeking cover.
And I mean that.

So hey, make a few bucks and have some fun with the run and shoot game.
Even amuse with a little quick draw. :)
But remember that it's only a game....a game that Joe Average will probably 'never' have any practical use for.

Remember too, that most potentially lethal situations occur at very close distances....touching distance. Like when opening your car door in a darkened parking lot.
And because of that reality, I believe that learning some basic HTH empty hand skills....regardless of one's physical limits....would be a much better use of one's training time.
.

Sweatnbullets
May 6, 2006, 06:32 PM
Another satisfied customer able to do what almost everyone says is impossible. Threat Focus skills must be to the level of "absolute confidence" to reach this plateau.

Radiki, get yourself a copy of "Kill or Get Killed." Read it, practice it. Try it on the tread mill and let us know about your improvement.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=312

Wyo Cowboy
May 6, 2006, 06:48 PM
I guarantee, if I shot in the house, my wife would definately have me moving! :D

Sweatnbullets
May 7, 2006, 08:50 PM
WC, check out this site. Airsofts are great training tools. The KWA G19 has proven itself to be one of the best choices, but shoot what you carry.
http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/gas.htm

New AAR from another customer that made the hits on a full run.:D

Great quote here, The second day concentrated on movement -- or perhaps sprinting is more accurate. Because of the emphasis placed on skill mastery, the class did not progress until every single member of the class, without fail, could perform the techniques while getting center mass hits on the target. I commented to one of the guys that when the movement drills commenced, the subject of sights was no longer a consideration; everyone simply forgot about them. He agreed. :eek: :D

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=313

threegun
May 8, 2006, 05:46 AM
Skyguy,

Although better than doing nothing, 'run and shoot' is quite an anemic offensive/defensive tactic. It's best use is to make noise while seeking cover.
And I mean that.


????????????? S'n'B is telling you that it is possible to hit while moving, using the bodies nature instinct to flee, yet ingraining the skills to engage while fleeing. This type of training should further reduce the effects of fear of death stress. It allows you to flee a natural instinct when startled or scared. It imparts movement, making you harder to hit. It gains distance between you and the threat. If it works and hits can be made, only a fool would ignore the benefits it would give them.

The alternative is to crouch and fire while preparing to be killed and who in their right mind would want that?

springmom
May 8, 2006, 08:24 AM
I trust that you didn't leave those little yellow pellets for your wife to clean up? :D

That sounds like a great practice setup. Let us know if it works and your accuracy improves.

Springmom

Sweatnbullets
May 8, 2006, 09:08 AM
I forgot to mention "Shooting to Live" as a must read book on this topic. It is only the basics of FAS threat focused shoooting, but it will raise your hit rate around 50%.

For the 95-100% rate you are simply going to have to train with people that know all of the factors in the equation of shooting on the run. But understanding the basics and seeing your improvement will possibly wet your appetite enough to seek out the full knowledge.

Lots or courses coming up, we got Knoxville, Houston, Vegas, Phoenix, and Shreveport Louisiana.:)

Skyguy
May 8, 2006, 10:49 AM
Threegun,

Although I seriously doubt both you and SNB's knowledge and experience at firefights against living, moving, intelligent, thinking human beings who are trying to kill you.....I am 'not' mocking the concept of running and shooting. It's as old as the hills and does serve a limited purpose.

If you guys want to pay for and train at that, I think it's great.
But, there is a very limited value to 'run' and shoot and there is an even more limited number of people who can adequately employ that tactic.
Most people are not spec ops or Seals. They're just regular guys and gals.
If one does need to 'move' and shoot it most likely will be laterally or rearward. Train at that...most ninjas already do. And try not to trip and fall.

In my opinion, the money and time spent on learning to run while shooting would be better spent on touching distance, empty handed self defense.
Considering the distance, close up encounters are many times more likely to happen and are a lot more dangerous than run and shoot situations.

Run and shoot is a great game, lotsa fun, an outlet for training addicts and a source of income for its instructors. But it's way down the 'tool' list for civilian self defense.

The best real life use of run and shoot is to 'make noise while seeking cover'. And I can teach you to do that for free. :)
.

Sweatnbullets
May 8, 2006, 11:49 PM
The Advanced Quick Kill course is just one of the course that we offer. Shooting on the run is just a small portion of the course.

We teach our students every aspect of threat focused shooting. We bring them to the level of "absolute confidence" where these skills can be taken to the most dynamic of encounters. We can bring our students to a level that almost everyone thinks is impossible, in a very short amount of time.

We also teach WWII combatives, stick, knife, integration of H2H with the gun, and rifle Quick Kill. Shooting on the run is only a small part of what we have to offer. Since no one else is offering this type of training (shooting on the run) it is what the students (which happen to be LEO, military, firearm instructors, and civilian) want. They want it because they can not get that tool anywhere else.

Why is it that some people believe that they know what everyone else should be training in and what tool they need to work on? I tend to let my students decide what is best for them, because anything else would go under the character flaw of "not minding my own business."

Here is another training method for inside the house. Take your airsoft gun and a heavy bag. Wrap butcher paper around the heavy bag. Use the heavy bag as a three dimensional target, the butcher paper will mark your hits with the airsoft gun.

Work the heavy bag with movement from all directions.

Work on acquiring the flanks.

Take off the paper and integrate H2H work with the use of your airsoft gun.

threegun
May 9, 2006, 04:34 PM
Skyguy,

But, there is a very limited value to 'run' and shoot

Yet most firearms instructors teach shooting on the move.

there is an even more limited number of people who can adequately employ that tactic.
Most people are not spec ops or Seals. They're just regular guys and gals.


So hand 2 hand training that you suggested is somehow manageable by those not able to move.

If you can't run, walk fast. The point is that movement while shooting and hitting is better than crouching while shooting and hitting. The reason is that the movement makes you harder to hit by the bad guy. That is my opinion and I'm sure S'n'B feels the same. If I magically know in advance that if I crouched and shot, none of the bad guys bullets would hit me then I would use your method. Since that is not possible and movement equals safety (on the average), I will move whenever possible at whatever speed possible.

stephen426
May 9, 2006, 05:17 PM
I'll assume that you already know that FOF training does 'not' prepare one for the sympathetic nervous system overload and its ramifications that appear when someone is scared to death.
It may teach technique/tactics, but it cannot duplicate real life fear; screaming out loud-scared to death fear.


While I have never been in a SHTF (*%^$ hits the fan) scenario, I feel training would greatly offset the sheer panic and freeze up reaction. While a one time course would not offer this, routine practice would help to engrain these techniques, and become the default reaction. Even if your hit percentage goes way down while moving, you would be much harder to hit since you are moving. If your hit percentage was much greater than your opponent on the move, it reasons to believe that you stand a much better chance of hitting your opponent and not getting hit yourself. Then again, you could both miss until you empty your guns and then pistol whip each other silly. In that case, your hand to hand combat skills would come into play. Don't forget that even a lucky shot will kill you or greatly hinder your ability to fight back. I say why not do all we can to ensure we survive an armed conflict. Either that or lay down some ground rules before the shooting starts and tell the other guy that he is not allowed to shoot on the move. :eek: :p :D

Skyguy
May 10, 2006, 11:00 PM
Some people believe that "movement equals safety".

Well, not always. The closer the armed threats are to each other, the greater the chance of mutual wounding or death.....whether one or both are moving or not.

As I've said before, there are times to move/run and there are times to stand and shoot. Both are shown in the following video.
Even though the BG is moving/running and ducking, he still gets shot 3 times by the non-moving shooter.
There's something to be learned there.

This video has been around, but it does prove that movement does not necessarily "equal safety".

http://www.break.com/index/robberyontape.html
.

Sweatnbullets
May 10, 2006, 11:47 PM
That would be running away, without firing a shot. That is what skyguy suggests as being the best method. I on the other hand disagree.

I have the ability to make hits at a full run and I can teach anyone else to do it. The close minded and uneducated can keep saying it is impossible. The rest of you can read the review of our courses.

We have 20 students lined up for Knoxville at the end of the month....more positive reviews are on the way.

For the sight only guys out there, here is another in house drill.

Sighted shots require controlled movement. The movement will have to be smoothed out and slowed down. The trick is the use the old Groucho/duck walk. The knees should be bent, the rear end should be lowered. Roll on the feet....heel toe...heel toe. This controlled movement can be taken up to a slow run where both feet are off the ground at the same time.

The trick is to find the perfect pace for you....personally. Here is how to find that perfect pace and find out your speed limitations. Use your airsoft or an UNLOADED DA revolver. Get your perfect sight picture and begin your movement. You must move in such a way as to keep that sight picture. Each time you press the trigger you should be able to call that shot as a hit. Start with slow movement and then increase the speed more and more each time. Make sure that your are smoothing the movement out as much as posssible and can keep the sight picture on the target.

You should be able to work this up to the speed of a slow smoothed out run.

This would be the limits of your "controlled movement." To get past this limit you will have to learn threat focused skills.

Sweatnbullets
May 10, 2006, 11:49 PM
Fluid Situational Response

In the world of the gun there are two types of responses to a life threatening event. The first and most popular is the conditioned response. A few examples of conditioned responses would be stand and deliver, the controlled pair, and to always make use of your sights. These are responses that we train into ourselves with the hope that when the SHTF we will default to our training and this programming will save the day.

While I was learning the Modern Techniques, (MT) I constantly questioned the logic behind many of the conditioned responses. To me, there was very little common sense attached to these conditioned responses. Even as a newbie I knew that I would never fight in this manner. It went away from the logic of all of my past experiences. As I trained and trained in the MT, I always held on to the realization the MT's were just going to be a foundation, a foundation that I built my fighting style on top of.

As I progressed, I began to incorporate what I thought a common sense fighting style would entail. I began to seek out people that thought as I did. My observations were confirmed again and again by highly respected "been there done that" guys, most notably a Federal Agent that went under the handle 7677.He would write posts of his real world experience that coincided with my thoughts and observations As my suspicions were verified, my training progressed into an area that very few people have explored. I began to embrace the concept of natural human response.

As I participated in and witnessed FOF encounters, it became very clear that the vast majority of the people that trained on a regular basis, cast aside their training when the action was fast and close. They would default to their natural human response. They solved problems at a sub-conscious level. I witnessed many people doing things that they had never been trained to do. After the encounter I would talk to them about their response. The majority actually did not know what they had done to solve the problem. As I told them what they did, they would often look at me in disbelief that they reacted in that manner. This furthered my interest in the subject, which lead me to my next level of enlightenment.

I call this level Fluid Situational Response. The concept is that you can incorporate your natural human response and your conditioned response and use them fluidly in the appropriate situation all along, what 7677 calls the fighting continuum. I know some of you will say that this does not stay within the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle, or that it does not conform to Hicks law (the more options you have, the longer it will take to access an option). IMHO this is just not so. Hicks law applies to conditioned responses, that is why you should have a mastery of a few essential techniques. Hicks law does not apply to natural human response. There is no lag time to access these responses. Your body will choose the solution to the problem in a microsecond at a subconscious level. Accepting this to be fact opens up a world that very few have explored.

My training is now geared to my Fluid Situational Response. The response is dictated by time, distance, and where you find yourself in the reactionary curve. The position on the reactionary curve is the most important factor to your response. This is where natural human response of "fight or flight" takes over. IMHO you should embrace the "fight or flight" response and train within that response. One thing to keep in mind, when it comes to firearms "fight or flight" is also "fight and flight." The direction you move, the speed of your movement, the necessary visual input to maneuver and to comprehend the problem, the necessary visual input needed to make the hits, and the necessary visual input to recognize the situational changes are all dependent on your position on the reactionary curve inside of the 7677 fight continuum.

There is no doubt that at certain distances, going hands on before you access your handgun is the very best response. But for now, let's take a look at responses that are outside of hand to hand ranges.

If you have succeeded in being ahead in the reactionary curve due to awareness, deception, distraction, or metsubishi (throw something in the face of your adversary) you are in a dominant position. Conditioned responses are excellent for this situation. Stand and deliver, sighted fire, aggressively advancing to your 12:00 are all appropriate responses.

If you find yourself even in the reactionary curve, your response will have to be different. Conditioned responses may not get the job done as well as natural human response. The fight and flight response will kick in and you will want to get out of the kill zone. Move as you draw, put hits on the adversary as soon as you can using threat focused skills, work towards getting inside of the adversaries OODA loop by your movement, making hits, and acquiring his flank. Once you have turned the reactionary curve in your favor, embrace your fluid situational response and shift from a reactionary position to the dominant position and eliminate the threat.

If you find yourself well behind the reactionary curve, your response will have to change even more. A conditioned response could be suicide, your best hope is a natural human response. Brownies startle response can be use to your advantage and you must train to be comfortable within your startle response. Flight overrides fight, because you must survive the initial contact so that you can get into the fight. Explode out of the kill zone, move to cover if near or access the weapon on the sprint, put hits on the adversary using threat focus skills, look to turn the tide, if the situation changes, flow into the next appropriate response.

Once you embrace your Fluid Situational Response you will go places that you never thought were possible, Where your mind is the weapon and the gun is just an extension of your mind, and everything flows with no conscious thought.

The inevitable question arises, "what is more important, to get the hits or to not get hit?" The Fluid Situational Response answers that question. When you are ahead of the reactionary curve, it is more important to get the hits. You are in the dominate position....ELIMINATE THE THREAT! If you are even on the reactionary curve the importance are equal. Use a balance of speed (of movement) and accuracy to solve the problem. If you are behind in the reactionary curve it is more important to not get hit. Get out of the kill zone by "thinking move first." Sprint to cover if it is near or access your handgun on the sprint and put hits on your adversary. Always look to get inside of the adversaries OODA loop and progress through your Fluid Situational Response until you are either dominating the confrontation or have put yourself in the position to terminate the confrontation.

Sweatnbullets
May 10, 2006, 11:59 PM
The last time that video came up in a movement thread, the thread was locked. If we get off topic due to that video again, this one will be locked also.

This is about in home movement drills.... lets try to stay on topic.

Blackwater OPS
May 11, 2006, 12:23 AM
A better discussion of this topic can be found here.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1684360

Skyguy
May 11, 2006, 11:22 AM
That would be running away, without firing a shot. That is what skyguy suggests as being the best method. I on the other hand disagree

Correction. I never said that.
My exact words were: "As I've said before, there are times to move/run and there are times to stand and shoot."

As for the video, it was a visual way to dis-prove Threegun & others' theory that movement "equals safety". Obviously, it didn't!
The shooter prevailed while the 'moving' BG was shot 3 times. There's something to be learned from that.

And for the record: As a proud Sky Soldier, I can hardly disagree with most of your commonly held shootout tactics or even your gun games, but.........as an instructor, you fail to address some important qualifiers.

1. Distance, which controls the tactic.
2. A moving, thinking, shooting opponent.
3. The sympathetic nervous system overload and its ramifications.
4. The age and physical condition of the actors.

Get busy on that! :)
.

pwrtool45
May 11, 2006, 12:30 PM
. My basement is pretty big so the targets were between 5-20 feet away. When I was walking or jogging slowly, I averaged I say about 55%-60% hit on a 10" target- worse off to the side maybe 35%-40%. But when I was running that dropped to probably less than ten percent. These were also stationary targets and I knew where they were and I was taking time in between shots. I want to try to make a contraption that swings or something

I believe it was the match before last at the local IDPA club where we had a moving target (as in moving on a cart, not just a swinger) that had to be engaged on the move. There were lots of -1s and -3s, but I don't believe anyone actually got a FTN. I think most people even hit it with all 3 rounds.

It's not easy, but it is doable with a bit of practice.

Skyguy
May 11, 2006, 01:22 PM
we had a moving target (as in moving on a cart, not just a swinger) that had to be engaged on the move.

Curious here.

What was the speed of.....and distance to the target? And what was the prescribed movement? Forward, laterally, angled, pursuit, retreat, etc.

.

pwrtool45
May 11, 2006, 01:41 PM
The speed of the cart matched the speed of the shooter. Most took it at a moderate-to-fast walk. Anyone who failed to move and shoot (ie, stopping for a shot) was given a PE. Distance was maybe 21 feet. to the target. Movement was angled away from the shooter in the same direction.

It was a fun stage. Movers usually are.

threegun
May 11, 2006, 03:35 PM
Skyguy,

As for the video, it was a visual way to dis-prove Threegun & others' theory that movement "equals safety". Obviously, it didn't!
The shooter prevailed while the 'moving' BG was shot 3 times. There's something to be learned from that.

For starters you are well aware that my position is to move while engaging the bad guy. I had never even considered giving my back to the bad guy until S'n'B described his technique. The bank video is not proof that movement doesn't equals safety rather it is proof that failing to place your opponent under duress makes him shoot like Wild Bill.

When your number is called you crouch and fire and hope for mutual wounding or death. I'm gonna retreat/move to cover while engaging the threat just like I have trained. If I ever get to S'n'B's class maybe I will run like a Ethiopian duck while shooting LOL. Bottom line is I ain't standing still while rounds are incoming (unless behind cover of course) that just isn't logical.

Mikeyboy
May 11, 2006, 03:55 PM
Arrrgghh that video again!!! What does that knucklehead have to do with movement and shooting. I will comment no further on the video to keep the thread open. 99% of the time in a home defense situation you are only going to move a few feet while shooting simply because of the enviroment your in. Your either going to be moving behind a wall, or crouching behind a piece of furniture, moving closer or backing away from the BG. Your not running and shooting out in some open field with little cover. Your shots will stink as it is, since to a HD situation you will be stressed out and your heart will be racing, moving will just make your shooting even worse. If possible I would take a defensive position in the house, protecting your family and ambush the guy, instead of moving around looking for the a burglar, and having him ambush you.

I do have a thought on how to train for moving around in the house and engaging BGs. I have not tried it yet (waiting for the next B-day party) but I thought of getting a few helium filled balloons and putting them in various places in the house, maybe even tie a few to my kids toys to make them move around, and just try to go thru the house shooting them with my airsoft pistol. If it works (not sure if the balloons will pop) it is a good skill exercise and a way to get an idea of good and bad shooting position around my house.

P.S. I will clean up the mess afterwards springmom:o

threegun
May 12, 2006, 09:06 AM
Helium filled balloons also offer erratic motion from air flow especially if a fan is on. They are great targets indoors or out when you want to practice against something other than stationary cardboard bad guys. In the proper area they allow you to practice lateral movement yet still have a full target (being three dimensional).

Skyguy
May 12, 2006, 10:38 AM
This is an absolutely crucial tactics video of some of the world's finest trainers in action.
They advise on training, low light, movement and the immediate tactical advantages of Lasergrips.

Listen, look and learn from true Master Trainers; the real deal.
If you can't learn from this, you can't learn.

http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv
.

threegun
May 12, 2006, 12:13 PM
Skyguy, What does that video have to do with shooting on the move? Besides what they aren't telling you is that your brains reaction time from finding the dot, confirming its correct position, and pulling the trigger is almost a second. If they fire faster than that they were just point shooting with a laser on the target. Just like when I get on the steel. I get sight alignment on the first plate then fly point shooting mostly. If I miss I get a flash front sight and go again. No laser will help here as I have tried. If I use the laser my times suffer. If I use my sights my time is similar to the laser. There might be some use for the laser but I have found them to be close to useless with the negatives out weighting any positives. Nite sights and a tac light are totally different animals.

stephen426
May 12, 2006, 06:13 PM
Skyguy, What does that video have to do with shooting on the move? Besides what they aren't telling you is that your brains reaction time from finding the dot, confirming its correct position, and pulling the trigger is almost a second. If they fire faster than that they were just point shooting with a laser on the target. Just like when I get on the steel. I get sight alignment on the first plate then fly point shooting mostly. If I miss I get a flash front sight and go again. No laser will help here as I have tried. If I use the laser my times suffer. If I use my sights my time is similar to the laser. There might be some use for the laser but I have found them to be close to useless with the negatives out weighting any positives. Nite sights and a tac light are totally different animals.

I'm not sure if we were watching the same video based on your post. Aimed fire using the sights, while on the move is very difficult. Traditional aimed fire calls for focus to be on the front sight. It is hard to maintain situational awareness when your if focus is about a foot from your face. As most have mentioned, moving and shooting is most effectively done with point shooting rather than sight aimed fire. Having the extra confirmation that you are on target from a laser sight allows you to concentrate on the target. I think it was quite clear, from the video, that a laser greatly aids in aiming without the sights. It further demonstrated, at least to me, that having the laser made shooting on the move much more accurate.

I think I'm convinced and am going to place my order for a Lasermax Laser right now. I like the fact that there are no external changes that could snag or add bulk.

threegun
May 12, 2006, 07:19 PM
Stephen,

As most have mentioned, moving and shooting is most effectively done with point shooting rather than sight aimed fire. Having the extra confirmation that you are on target from a laser sight allows you to concentrate on the target.

My point is that to confirm anything using a laser there is a delay involved. In order to confirm that your aim is true with the red dot the delay is about a second. You might believe the video and thats cool. I have tried both ways and cannot hit as fast if I use the laser. In fact I found the laser to be harder to hit fast with, more-so than with conventional sights although slightly. If you learn to point shoot, the laser will slow you down if you use it.

Then you have the downside. Reliance on a battery powered piece of hardware. The red light coming from your gun giving your opponent a target. Plus the above mentioned slowing of your rate of effective fire due to reaction time. The laser is not for me.

Aimed fire using the sights, while on the move is very difficult.

We agree here. So don't use aimed fire. Learn to point shoot close in and impose your front sight only on the target at further distances. Both are fairly easy to become proficient at. Both also solve the awareness problem since your focus is on the target most of the time.

Blackwater OPS
May 12, 2006, 07:34 PM
Here is a random but good topic related image:

Skyguy
May 12, 2006, 11:47 PM
Like I said Stephen, if you can't learn from that video, you can't learn.
Good move. Get one and you'll never look back.

The video has some of the world's finest trainers. They're not just gun game-players on an internet message board, they're actual master trainers?.highly sought after professional instructors. They've put their credibility and their reputations on the line.

Here are some relevant quotes from a few of those master trainers:

"Where it really started to shine for me was in a more dynamic situation." ? Ernie Langdon?..IDPA Champion, Marine vet, International Trainer

"It is a low light fighting instrument primarily." - Bob Taubert..?Marine officer, FBI Special Agent, counter terrorism expert

"A tool I don't want to be without" - Mike Dalton?..World IDPA Steel Challenge Champion

FYI, here's another video that shows some laser training and defense techniques:
http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv


http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/prowler.jpeg

oldbillthundercheif
May 13, 2006, 01:07 AM
This is a great excuse to get on the treadmill! All of your conversations about whether or not you can hit something while moving are academic. I know I can hit things while moving because I do it all the time at the FOP range when I am the only one there. The "fight to cover" drill is my favorite. I have gotten good at it.
I need someone to throw M-80s at me while I train, I bet that would make it more challenging. Any volunteers?
I tend to walk with a smooth sidestep, though. Hitting anything at a full run is another thing entirely. Is there a competition event that uses these skills? Some sort of baiathalon without stopping to shoot? All I know is the bianchi "mover" drills I did the other day were entertaining. I want more.

threegun
May 13, 2006, 06:40 AM
Skyguy, The picture you displayed is humorous. You have a homeowner behind CONCEALMENT not cover, giving away his position with a bright red light coming from his gun. Of course using the laser also makes him slower to fire since visual conformation takes time. If you train at all making that shot simply point shooting is not difficult. Being concealed you would be better served using your sights for aimed fire. The second you turn on the laser your location is compromised.

You intend on crouching and firing hoping for mutual wounding or death anyway so giving up your position is of no concern correct?

Skyguy
May 13, 2006, 11:04 AM
Skyguy, The picture you displayed is humorous. You have a homeowner behind CONCEALMENT not cover, giving away his position with a bright red light coming from his gun. Of course using the laser also makes him slower to fire since visual conformation takes time. If you train at all making that shot simply point shooting is not difficult. Being concealed you would be better served using your sights for aimed fire. The second you turn on the laser your location is compromised.

Thanks for your input Threegun, I'll address each of your concerns...for free. :)

The picture is only meant to illustrate the effectiveness of being able to very 'accurately' index the target without alignment of your eyes to the sights/nightsights....while also being able to scan the area. This is especially good for misplaced glasses and old eyes.

Point shooting works too, but it is much less effective than a laser in low light and darkened conditions. Both are threat focus techniques.

There is absolutely no delay for a trained laser operator to acquire and hit a target, whether moving or not.
That's a myth. Ask any master trainer or just review the master trainers' video. http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

Although the laser does show somewhat and only from certain angles, it is harder for a threat to get a hit on the defender's body because the laser can very 'accurately' index the target in many ways. e.g. out to the side, overhead, under/over/around furniture, walls, etc. (refer to video tactics) http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv

The use of white light to observe an intruder definitely gives up your location no matter what flashlight technique is used.
Using the white light 'intermittently' in conjunction with the 'intermittent' use of the laser is an effective tactic.

As for your 'cover' vs 'concealment' issue, we all know that 'cover' is next to impossible in a house so we must learn to use 'concealment' to advantage.

Like it or not, in dire circumstances, we have to immediately seek and settle for 'concealment' .
Bullets easily go through uncertain 'cover' like furniture, walls, doors, etc.

You intend on crouching and firing hoping for mutual wounding or death anyway so giving up your position is of no concern correct?

Trapped in a home defense shooting scenario, there are few options other than crouch, conceal and shoot. Running is out, movement is 'iffy', both compromise accurate shooting.
The muzzle flash will give away one's position anyway, making the defender subject to hits.
Hardly the best situation, but that's the way it is.

Hope this info helps you.
.

threegun
May 22, 2006, 11:39 AM
Skyguy,
There is absolutely no delay for a trained laser operator to acquire and hit a target, whether moving or not.
That's a myth. Ask any master trainer or just review the master trainers' video.

Unless you are not human or super human there is a delay called reaction time. This is the time it takes your brain to register that the red dot is on target and send the signal to pull the trigger. We all suffer from this delay. The only way around it is to reduce the amount of signals going from the senses to the brain and back. With point shooting you raise and fire. With laser or sighted fire your have to visually confirm the correct positioning of either........causing the delay. Use of the laser in the picture you posted gives the bad guy a better chance of locating you. Way better than an instantaneous muzzle flash. The point is if you are capable of hitting without the laser, you are better off not using it.

As for your 'cover' vs 'concealment' issue, we all know that 'cover' is next to impossible in a house so we must learn to use 'concealment' to advantage.

So turn on a red light prior to shooting an intruder armed with a gun. If you don't shoot fast enough, miss, have the cartridge fail to instantly stop, etc you have given the bad guy a red dot to shoot at and usually you are behind it.

BTW, You didn't expect Crimson Trace to publish anything anti laser did you?

stephen426
May 22, 2006, 12:15 PM
Unless you are not human or super human there is a delay called reaction time. This is the time it takes your brain to register that the red dot is on target and send the signal to pull the trigger. We all suffer from this delay. The only way around it is to reduce the amount of signals going from the senses to the brain and back. With point shooting you raise and fire. With laser or sighted fire your have to visually confirm the correct positioning of either........causing the delay. Use of the laser in the picture you posted gives the bad guy a better chance of locating you. Way better than an instantaneous muzzle flash. The point is if you are capable of hitting without the laser, you are better off not using it.


So turn on a red light prior to shooting an intruder armed with a gun. If you don't shoot fast enough, miss, have the cartridge fail to instantly stop, etc you have given the bad guy a red dot to shoot at and usually you are behind it.


threegun... would you stop long enough to think about your arguements?

First of all, sighted fire takes time as well. We are not dealing with a SWAT situation where we have to guess which laser is ours. If you are already used to point shooting, the laser will just be visual confirmation on the area you are already focused on. The laser gives you the advantage of shooting from non-traditional positions (possibly cover or concealment) that make point shooting difficult. If you miss with point shooting, you cover is blown anyways. Do you think a little red light is going to be that much more obvious than a loud report and a bright muzzle flash? :rolleyes: I would rather my first shot hit home and injure or kill the attacker rather than spraying hot lead all over the place. That is how innocent people get killed. I am a fan of point shooting but the laser gives me the ability to confirm my point of aim. I will still practice point shooting in case the laser fails me, but if you take care of your equipment, it will take care of you.

Besides, if it convinces the bad guy to give up the fight without having to fire a shot, that is even better. I'm not going to count on it but if it works... great. If it doesn't, I will have a confirmed point of aim to put a shot into his chest. In a dark room, the bad guy may not see that you are also armed. If you challenge him (I know this is the topic of another thread), you still give up your position. That leaves you little choice but to shoot someone that may not be a real threat.

johnnymenudo
May 22, 2006, 01:27 PM
When you shoot while moving you have to change your method of running. Typical running involves a lot of up and down body movement and this makes it very hard to engage targets. If you want to only be able to shoot at certain points in your stride, the typical run will work. If you want to be able to shoot at any point while running you have to learn to run like Groucho Marx. Don't laugh. When Groucho would walk he would do this kind of odd elongated fast strides while keeping the upper body still. Thats the best way to shoot while moving fast.

The fake moustache and glasses are optional.

JM

threegun
May 22, 2006, 05:52 PM
Stephen426,
threegun... would you stop long enough to think about your arguments?

Yep. Better yet I have used a laser and own an M6.

First of all, sighted fire takes time as well.

Yep as noted in my post.

If you are already used to point shooting, the laser will just be visual confirmation on the area you are already focused on.

If you don't wait for the confirmation you are point shooting. I you wait for the confirmation you just added reaction time. If you are looking at the dot you are not completely focusing on the threat anyway.

If you miss with point shooting, you cover is blown anyways. Do you think a little red light is going to be that much more obvious than a loud report and a bright muzzle flash?

It stays on while muzzle flash is gone between shots. Fire a gun in a room with you eyes closed and tell me were it is coming from to within the size of a person.

Gotta run will finish post latter.

Sweatnbullets
May 22, 2006, 07:57 PM
When you shoot while moving you have to change your method of running.

That is what has been believed for years, but it is just not so. We teach our students to make hits on a full run, with no running method change. They get consistant thoracic cavity hits as fast as they can pull the trigger.

Don't believe me, check the links that were supplied. Our students learn to do what most people think is impossible in one or two days. Once you have the knowledge, you will own the skill for the rest of your life with very little need for maintenance. It will work with every one of your handguns and you need not add on an expensive device to them all.

The brain is the weapon, a laser is just a tool.

Sweatnbullets
May 22, 2006, 09:06 PM
For those that want to take their firearms skills as far as they can be taken, in regards to shooting on the move. You simply can not reach the highest levels if you do not learn threat focused skills. Quick Kill (QK) is the centerpiece to this level of expertice.

Here is the link to the QK description. This is just the starting point. If you pay attention and want to kleen the knowledge, you can see enough here to realize that this skill is very different and allows you to do things that were otherwise believed to be imposssible.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46

This one skill can be used on every gun you own and every gun you may ever use. Right now I have eight guns that have a certain niche in my self defense plan. The cost of putting a laser on all eight would be astronomical. I spent less than $200 dollars to learn QK. Not only is it great with a handgun, the skill really excels with long guns too.

Anthony2
May 22, 2006, 09:28 PM
While were talking about shooting and moving, and in house training.
what about simunitions?
Couldn't a guy use these for the same purpose?
Granted it may be difficult to set-up but is it possible?

Sweatnbullets
May 22, 2006, 10:04 PM
Simunitions would be great....if you have access (usually LEO only) and if you can afford them. A quality Airsoft is just as good.....available to the general public....and inexpensive as all heck.

Anthony2
May 23, 2006, 10:29 AM
Simunitions would be great....if you have access (usually LEO only) and if you can afford them. A quality Airsoft is just as good.....available to the general public....and inexpensive as all heck.

That's true...I was just thinking that simunitions would be as close to the real thing as a guy could get...although I guess a replica paintball gun could do it too...Probably feel more realistic too...

Skyguy
May 24, 2006, 12:31 AM
For the umpteenth time:

Close distances are best handled with point shooting.....but, the laser sight is very accurate at distances
where point shooting begins to fail; about 21 feet.

Lasers overwhelmingly trump both point and sighted shooting in low light, darkness and from awkward positions!
Laser sights excel for old or weak eyes and threat focused shooting.
.

stephen426
May 24, 2006, 08:44 AM
Threegun,

I am afraid that we will have to agree to disagree. One very important consideration before you damn laser sights to the junk bin... How much time and practice does it take to become proficient at point shooting. How often does one need to practice to maintain this level of proficiency? Having a laser is not an excuse for laziness, but many of us does not get to go to the range as often as we want due to time constraints. Should be be at a disadvantage because of it? I would rather take that extra split second to confirm where my gun is pointed than spray hot lead in hopes of hitting the bad guy. The is especiallt true if there are bystanders. I would already be at a disadvantage since I doubt the bad guy gives a crap if he hits bystanders.

We agree that point shooting is probably the fastest, but it is not the most accurate. I will practice more with my airsoft and hopefully my wife won't shoot me when she finds little plastic pellets all over the place. :eek: :p I willing to bet I'll probably miss quite often in the beginning.

threegun
May 24, 2006, 11:53 AM
Skyguy,

but, the laser sight is very accurate at distances
where point shooting begins to fail; about 21 feet.

Sights are just as accurate and won't compromise your position. The exception being those as you have indicated that cannot, for whatever reasons, use conventional systems or tactics. Why use a laser if it makes you slower to fire, compromises your position, and adds yet another thing which could fail in the time of need? About the only advantage, for the healthy among us, is the ability to shoot from awkward positions.

For the umpteenth time:

You never once mentioned anything about point shooting beginning to fail at 21 ft.

Thanks for your input Threegun, I'll address each of your concerns...for free. :)

Thank you your highness. Please address this one.

There is absolutely no delay for a trained laser operator to acquire and hit a target, whether moving or not. That's a myth.

How about reaction time?


Stephen, I own a laser. An M6 laser/tac light combo. As for point shooting requiring tons of practice.............it doesn't for me. Remember you aren't looking for quarter sized group rather COM hits as fast as possible. When facing an armed adversary I believe that it is more important to be fast with a good center hit than slower with a great center hit.

stephen426
May 25, 2006, 09:58 AM
threegun,

I just installed my LaserMax on my Glock 26 yesterday. I unloaded it and did a little point shooting practice. I would pick an object in the room, bring the gun up as quickly as possible, then switch on the laser. It turns out that I am decent at point shooting. My shots would have landed within 8 inches of my point of aim from as much as 20 feet away. I must tell you that the whole delayed reaction thing is over stated. We are probably talking about less than a tenth of a second in reality.

threegun, you can do what you like, but I'm going to take a gamble and risk that one tenth of a second to ensure I hit what I am aiming at. If were are talking about a practically negligable amount of time, a slightly slower well placed hit is better by far than a fast miss. Like I mentioned, there are innocent bystanders to think of and you still give away your position because of the report and the muzzle flash.

What is your opinion about lasers that have pressure switches that can be turned on and off instantaneously? Does that reduce your concern about giving away your position. The Lasermax is pretty easy to turn on and off. The way I see it though, with one well placed shot (preferably between the eyes), giving away your position is a moot point.

As for point shooting requiring tons of practice.............it doesn't for me.
threegun, you may be a shooting prodigy and I am glad you are a proficient shooter. What about those who are less gifted? Would they benefit from a laser or just spray and pray?

If you can't see any reasoning to my point after all this, we will just have to agree to disagree. Peace! ;) :D

threegun
May 25, 2006, 12:06 PM
Stephen, Congrats on your new laser.To answer some of your concerns

and you still give away your position because of the report and the muzzle flash.

It is much better to give those away after the bullet is launched not before.

What is your opinion about lasers that have pressure switches that can be turned on and off instantaneously?

don't like them.

threegun, you may be a shooting prodigy and I am glad you are a proficient shooter. What about those who are less gifted? Would they benefit from a laser or just spray and pray?

Thats just it.......I can hit point shooting without being a phenom. You can to and faster than with the laser. At ranges to far for accurate point shooting just us your sights.

I must tell you that the whole delayed reaction thing is over stated. We are probably talking about less than a tenth of a second in reality.


Its 2/5ths of a second for reaction time.

Listen Stephen I am at the point that my skills are great, my equipment is great, etc. so all I have left is to developer better tactics and to do all faster. To the beginner 2/5ths is nothing. For me it is tremendous. Those 4 tenths might save my life or my families live you know? So back to square one why would I want to shoot slower and give away my position faster. Your money would have been better spent at the range IMO.

The only reason I own a laser/light combo is because I wanted the tac light and a dual unit came up for sale at my job for half the cost of new. I went ahead and bought the dual unit since it was such a good deal.

stephen426
May 25, 2006, 01:41 PM
threegun,

Its 2/5ths of a second for reaction time.

Where does this statistic come from? Anyone can quote statistics. Don't forget that statistics take the average reaction time. What if mine are faster?

We have ignored a critical point in this arguement. Does having a laser sight increase the chances of the bad guy surrendering without having to fire a shot? I'm sure there is some evidence to supprt this based on actual data collected by police officers.

What about sighted fire? If you are focused on the front sight which is a foot in front of your face, what does that do to your peripheral vision? What if there is more than one threat?

What about the ability to shoot from cover or awkward angles when sighted fire is not possible? What about shooting off hand, say if your shooting hand gets injured. I'm betting it is much more accurate to shoot with a laser off hand if you don't practice off hand shooting much.

The main thing is I have the option to use or not use my laser sight. I doubt that you can honestly say that there is absolutely no use for a laser. To have it available is a benefit. Who knows? I may get in a situation where I need to draw and fire so quickly that I may not even have time to activate the laser. That is why I will still practice point shooting.

stephen426
May 26, 2006, 11:11 AM
I forgot one more facet to this whole giving away your position arguement... What if it the bad guy already knows where you are at because the lights are on or you are outdoors? The whole cover aspect goes out the window.

If you challange first before shooting, your position will also be compromised. Do you shoot first and then ask questions later? That was the topic of another thread.

I just thought I'd throw another monkey wrench into your arguement. :p :D

Skyguy
May 26, 2006, 01:05 PM
Anybody with basic skills can adequately point shoot close up; 15 ft or less.
Close point shooting-threat focused shooting is as simple as pointing at the target.
BUT, as the distance increases the accuracy degrades dramatically.

Regardless of the fantastic claims of 'deadly accuracy' out past a car length, the reality is that under stress even a practiced point shooter will miss a harmless stationary, paper com many more times than he will hit it.
That is so common that it seems silly to say, but that is reality.

We recently had a 73 year old woman shoot an intruder 3 times...she didn't miss. She's not a practiced shooter, just a scared old lady point shooting defensively.

Point shooting beyond 20 ft or so, whether daylight, dusk, low/no light, indoors or from awkward positions, under/over/around cover is a crap shoot at best.
A laser sight in the same situations 'dominates' point or sight shooting.

As the distance increases, accuracy with a laser remains excellent. I've proven that many times to the chagrin of more than a few range commandos. :)

Simple fact: just place the dot and you 'will' hit that spot.
.

stephen426
May 26, 2006, 01:19 PM
Simple fact: just place the dot and you 'will' hit that spot.

While I agree with pretty much everything else you said, the part that I quoted above is not entirely true. Even with a laser, good trigger control is critical. I honestly feel that the misses that occur during high stress situations is not a matter of sight picture or even bad pointing shooting. I bet a large part of it is due to poor trigger control, most likely brought upon by the stress. Jerking, flinching, and anticipating also severely affect point of impact. I fyou can keep those items under control, you will most likely hit your target and not some innocent bystanders.

Then again, maybe that is what you meant by the quotes around the "will" hit that spot. ;) :D

riverrat66
May 26, 2006, 04:02 PM
I've been following this thread very closely that Radiki started but he got lost in the shuffle somewhere as most of the replies have been by four or five members who seem to really know what they are talking about and have been very well trained on this subject.

I am certainly no expert but I have to agree with Skyguy when he said, the reality is that under stress even a practiced point shooter will miss a harmless stationary, paper com many more times than he will hit it. That is so common that it seems silly to say, but that is reality.

I have never shot at anyone in civilian life but I have in combat and in combat misses usually don't count as you just keep on "rocking & rolling" til you get the job done. I have come close to drawing my firearm in civilian life and my heart was "pounding" out of my chest but thankfully the threat was neutralized. I'm sure I could have hit my mark but it's a lot different then shooting at paper.

I've stated before that one should be proficient at point shooting before they even think about using a handgun for personal protection. A laser site can help one shoot better in certain conditions but should not be solely relied on. There was a reference to the split second longer that it takes to acquire the target with a laser then with point shooting. Well if that's indeed true and that tiny 1/10 of a second or what ever it was makes a difference, then you're already in trouble.

Of course this is only my opinion.

Sweatnbullets
May 26, 2006, 11:52 PM
threegun, you may be a shooting prodigy and I am glad you are a proficient shooter. What about those who are less gifted? Would they benefit from a laser or just spray and pray?

Stephen, If you still think that "spray and pray" has anything to do with point shooting, you really need to get some point shooting training. Threat focused skills are just like most skills, they are best when you have been trained properly.

Threat focused skills are gross motor skills, using one natural abilities. The degradation of these skills is significantly less than sighted fire under stress.

Sighted fire is a fine motor skill using a conditioned ability. This is the skill that degrades to "spray and pray." It usually degrades because of the lack of any threat focused skills or training. When sighted fire is not possible, the user has no other skills to fall back on.

This is why I advocate training with your natural abilities and your condition abilities. This is the only way to have all of your bases covered.

Sweatnbullets
May 26, 2006, 11:58 PM
Back to the original question, here is the complete PDF of the book "Shooting to Live." It is the basics of FAS point shooting. This will get you all started on how to make hits on the move.

It's free, so you can save some money for all of those lasers you need to buy!:p

http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/shooting_to_live.pdf

5whiskey
May 27, 2006, 08:21 AM
For getting the bloody thread back on topic. This is supposed to be about dynamic shooting, not on how great lasers are or how much the suck. Radiki, great job with the whole treadmill airsoft practice. Their are a few good minds here with some good ideas to share, and your idea was one of the reasons for this forum. To all, God Bless and have a good one.

5whiskey
May 27, 2006, 08:24 AM
Threegun, Skyguy, and the rest (I can't remember). I'm not knocking you, so don't take it personal. You all bring up valid points, but just try sticking with the topic of the thread. The laser thing wasn't completely off the topic untill it turned into an argument over reaction time, spray and pray, point shooting, ect. Granted, these are all incorperated in dynamic shooting, you know as well as I that the focus drifted a little off subject some time ago. Again, please take no offense

Skyguy
May 27, 2006, 10:07 AM
Thanks for the constructive criticism Wheeler, but I missed your recommendations on how to train indoors for shooting on the move.

My simple solution for the average gunowner is to use a laser sight, because they work. The laser dot shows the POI while you're moving. It helps to understand the dynamics of a moving operator and the relative position of the POI.

For example, I can hold the laser dot on a target, dryfire a few times...all the while moving in different ways on a treadmill. Without the laser dot verification at the moment of dryfire, I wouldn't have a clue where the POI would be. Especially in bad lighting.

The laser indexes accurately on the target/threat in all lighting, from cover and from awkward angles. It is a superb training tool as is testified to by a myriad of master trainers.
Even the USMC uses lasers for certain scenarios.

I have to say that all of my training and experiences came before the availability of the common laser sight. That's probably why I'm so blown away by their superb and immediate tactical-training advantages.

What would you recommend as an indoor training regimen for shooting while moving?
.

5whiskey
May 27, 2006, 11:02 AM
Perfect training? a live-fire house with pop- up Ivans targets, but I know that isn't feasible for most people. I personally do the airsoft thing, most of the time setting up one fire-team as agressors or opfor and letting the other two teams clear the building. Almost everyone has their own airsoft at work, and this is a pretty cheap and easy method of training against moving, breathing, thinking targets. It's also the only time we don't train in full gear. I make them wear pt shorts and a skivie shirt, nothing else. That way you'll know from the d#$% or s%$^ whether they've been hit or not. I don't like training without full gear, but this is a special case.

Be advised, however, that my training doesn't focus that much on accuracy. It focuses mainly on tactics and techniques of their movement through the objective, and also geometry of fires. I'll be frank in saying that most of our marksmanship training is done through live-fire EMP and shoot houses. I like the treadmill training idea for marksmanship, though. I have never thought of doing that, so I learned something today. One more reason why FLF is here for us. I think it would be a great technique for someone that doesn't have the resources LE or military has. I have nothing against the dry firing with a laser sight, it seems like a good tool for some people who don't get to shoot dynamicly and clear an entire house or town. I really like the airsoft on a treadmill idea, also. I may incorperate that in my own training for skill maintanance. It also just sounds plain fun.

Last thing, I'm not knocking lasers. Especially on a pistol. On a rifle? questionable. The Marine Corps uses an infrared laser sight called a peq-2 or peq-4. It's only visible through NVGs. We honestly don't rely on it heavily to shoot with, but it is awesome to mark targets for close air support. It's great just to mark a target for your squad at night, as far as that goes. Lasers have their purpose, but they are not the be all end all.

Meanwhile, I'm going to go and set up my treadmill targets and go for a jog. Thanks for the input skyguy

5whiskey
May 27, 2006, 11:11 AM
One more thing I forgot to add.

colored ballons for target id while moving is an awesome drill. We spend alot of rounds doing that and I think it's very effective. Try shooting while moving laterally to your weak side, this is one of the hardest things to do.

And, whatever you do, don't forget to incorperate mag change drills on the move. Obviously you SHOULD keep track of your ammo and reload behind cover before you go dry, but to think that you react perfectly in this manner every time while getting shot at is absurd. Just practice it for an oh **** I got caught with my pants down contingency. I've seen too many Marines that will shoot on the move well and then stop and take a knee to reload. Incorperate mag changes in everything.

Sweatnbullets
May 28, 2006, 12:05 PM
It is rare that we see so much agreement on the "fundamentals" of shooting on the move. I believe the people that are new to this can get an awful lot out of this thread. Even though I am not a big advocate of lazers, I am a big advocate on tailoring your tool bag and tactics to your specific situation. If lazers help you ......that is a great thing!

Here is some more info for the neewbies of movement.:D I posted this awhile ago in another thread, but I have refined it a bit to fit in this thread better. I believe that everyone should understand that there is a "movement continuum" just as there is a "sight continuum" (thanks to 7677.) So when you hear "see what you need to see".....remember there is also a "move as you need to move" and that these two continuums work along with each other inside of the "fight continuum."

What am I physically capable of?

I believe that there should be continuity to ones movement. I feel that one should train to get hits through the entire movement spectrum. There is no doubt about the importance of "stand and deliver" skills. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on this skill with tens of thousands of drawstrokes. If my body chooses this solution to the problem, that skill will be there.

I also see a need for very controlled movement that facilitates a precision "sighted" shot on the move. This could include skills such as "just walk", side stepping (crab walk,) or even the old groucho (duck) walk. All three of these techniques have there place (however small they might be) and should be something that you can do on demand, if that demand arises. I practice head shots at logical distances with this type of movement.

I also see a need to be able to get hits with your toes pointing the direction that you are moving. This type of movement has your upper body working independent from your lower body, "like a turret of a tank." Toes point the direction you are headed, body turreted the direction that you are shooting. This type of movement brings in your bi-lateral skills. Shooting to the firing side can be done two handed to a certain point, then you need to go one handed. The possible speed of this movement can cover the full spectrum, from a walk, to a jog, to a stride, to a run, and finally to a sprint. The amount of visual input that is used/needed is situationally dependent. This is where you find what you are physically capable of. This is where the limitations are pushed, and the standards are set.

Feints, jukes, cut backs and directional changes are also part of the movement skills set. One should explore there ability to use these skills and the limitations that different terrain/footing give you.

React as you need to react, move as you need to move, and see what you need to see to solve the problem that you are confronted with. If you train with these basic concepts, you will have covered the vast majority of the possible situations. In covering these situations, your body will chose, with confidence, the appropriate solution.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/index.php

Sweatnbullets
May 28, 2006, 12:11 PM
When it comes to vision, I see things a little differently than a lot of other people. There is the necessary vision to make the shot (see what you need to see) and there is another aspect of vision that people tend to ignore. I believe that the body will choose the height and the extension of the gun due to the amount of vision that the brain will require to solve the entire problem.

The visual information that the brain requires is covered in my Fluid Situational Response.

The ability to make the hit.
The ability to ID the threat.
The ability to have a field of vision to comprehend the entire problem.
The ability to have a field of vision that facilitates movement that has purpose.
The ability to have a field of vision to manuver through and around obstacles.
The ability to recognize the changes in your position in regards to the OODA loop.
The ability to eliminate visual interference or negative visual input.

In my opinion, the dynamics or the chaos of the encounter will dictate the height, the extension, the position, and whether you use one hand or two hands, in regards to your HG. This is why I feel so strongly about the ability to shoot throughout your draw stroke and from every angle and position. It is my opinon that this natural act (the body picking the best position so that the brain can take in the necessary visual information) is a much better idea than a conditioned act (always bring the gun to line of sight) that is not as well rounded or versatile and has many negatives connected with it.

I think that the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop. I could introduce anyone, to their natural ability to do this in a day or two.......and you would own that natural ability for the rest of your life with very little need for maintenance.

I believe that natural abilities should go hand in hand with your conditoned abilities. If your conditoned abilities fail you (such as not being able to get to your line of sight) your natural abilities can take over. All your bases are covered due to being wellrounded, you just keep rolling right along.......as opposed to being flat sided.

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321

threegun
May 30, 2006, 10:55 AM
Makes sense. When is the next course here in Florida?

Sweatnbullets
May 30, 2006, 11:34 AM
Threegun, I would love to come out to Florida and train. If you can get a group of guys together and secure a range, I would be happy to make the flight out there.

I will PM you my contact info if you want to discuss it.

threegun
May 30, 2006, 02:35 PM
Thanks. I'll see if I can get some of these old timers motivated into learning something progressive. They tend to be set in their ways. We'll see.

Skyguy
May 30, 2006, 07:11 PM
I'll see if I can get some of these old timers motivated into learning something progressive. They tend to be set in their ways.


Try not to be so dismissive of "old timers"....because what might seem "progressive" to you is likely old news re-labled and recycled. Point shooting, movement, etc has been around since long before your time.
What goes around comes around.

As for "set in their ways", many "old timers" have long ago figured out what best serves their needs. How many times can one learn the same things?

If you really care to impart "something progressive", pass along the 21st century tactic of utilizing the immediate tactical advantages of laser sights.

Tell them about the 'threat focused' advantages of sighting in low light, darkness, indoors...and tell them of the advantages of shooting with 'old eyes' from awkward positions over/under/around cover, moving or not.
.

threegun
May 31, 2006, 01:32 PM
Skyguy, I was joking about the old timers. My friends however have already analyzed the pro's and con's of lasers and like myself they don't see any tactical edge it could provide....yet. Maybe when they get real old and in need of vision assisting devises.

Try not to be so dismissive of "old timers"....because what might seem "progressive" to you is likely old news re-labeled and recycled. Point shooting, movement, etc has been around since long before your time.
What goes around comes around

The tactics offered by S'N'B are new to me. I have never seen or heard of anything like it before. My friends haven't either. Have you? If so, what was it called before and by whom? From everything I have researched in the past 15 years, nothing comes close. I have never heard of running in one direction and shooting behind yourself. I don't believe this is simple recycled material rather a new progressive tactic that (if it works) can seriously increase my odds of survival. I have always trained to move and shoot but in the traditional "half step" manner keeping my shooting platform stable while moving as quickly as possible toward cover. I have also shot competitions requiring running and gunning but again sideways and usually stopping or pausing to fire. Quick Kill is something that I have never seen before.

Sweatnbullets
May 31, 2006, 09:37 PM
Makes sense.
The tactics offered by S'N'B are new to me. I have never seen or heard of anything like it before

Thank you threegun for the ultimate compliment. That is exactly what I am trying to do. I have a lot of training and have always been amazed on how much of it was closed minded and did not make sense.

I try to avoid the "progressive" label. I would rather be labeled as the "open minded, common sense guy that looks at things from a different angle.":D

Did you get my E-mail?

hso
June 1, 2006, 08:19 AM
I just took the ITFTS course in Knoxville that Sweatnbullets has referred to.

After an hour with each technique I was putting all rounds within the central 4-6 inches of the target drawing from the holster and without using my sights. This was done as quickly as possible and we decreased the holster-to-hole time to less than a second. The techniques were practiced at ranges from 6 to 30 feet.

Movement while firing techniques were covered as well. I was able to maintain nearly the same accuracy and speed as the static techniques because we used them as a foundation, added multiple targets, then added movement. Movement included lateral, angled forward and back, looping flanking, charging, changing level (kneeling from movement and back to movement while firing)

I am not a former SEAL. I am not a competitive shooter.

I am a FMA and CB student, but I do not train rigorously.

I am over weight and out of shape and have had 3 knee surgeries to replace ACLs and clean up the cartilage and I'm wearing glasses now that I've crossed the 45 threshold.

I think the class gave me some life saving skills I did not have before and that I did not waste my money or my time.

My buddy that can't see the front sights without his glasses and can't clearly make out the holes in the target beyond 15 feet didn't need his glasses to do as well as I did.

I do agree that if you only could choose between training in H2H for contact range and this training your time would be better spent in the H2H because not every violent encounter will require the use of a handgun.

BUT, I do want to say that if you give a rat's ass about your own safety and carry a gun you should take this training and decide for yourself like I did instead of reading cat fights between competing trainers. I busted my hump to do the training and I think I learned things that could save my life some day.

Skyguy
June 1, 2006, 10:30 AM
I think the class gave me some life saving skills I did not have before and that I did not waste my money or my time.
All's well that ends well. :)

Sweatnbullets put it simply: "the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop."

Fortunately, most self defense handgun instructors teach point shooting tactics, movement and attendant exercises. The better ones use moving, reactive, shoot/no shoot and various bladed targets.......and absolutely train in low light, darkness.

I do agree that if you only could choose between training in H2H for contact range and this training your time would be better spent in the H2H because not every violent encounter will require the use of a handgun
Well said and right on! The problem is that it takes a lot more time, effort and skill to learn to effectively use hand to hand fighting.
Point shooting comes naturally.
.

hso
June 1, 2006, 12:14 PM
Skyguy,

Having taken the training I wouldn't say that "point shooting comes naturally". I think it takes instruction and practice. I know that point shooting techniques at ranges beyone 6 feet take instruction and that point shooting while moving obliquely away from a target takes instruction because I was there and it wasn't the easiest thing to just jump to from the previouse building block exercise.

I would agree with you if you had said "point shooting comes naturally after some brief instruction and lots of practice", but I think it's a gross oversimplification if you mean it's something anyone can just pick up and do without training.

As an interesting example of the problems of movement while firing and the benefits of ITFTS training, the buddy of mine that couldn't see the front sights without his glasses fell during one of the movement exercises. He had expended probably 10 out of 15 rounds when he fell to the side while moving towards the target. Amazingly, he fired the remaining 5 rounds while falling and they all hit the target! He hit the ground with a THUD with his gun slide locked and 15 holes in the target before he was half way to the ground! We didn't want to see if he could do it again.:D

Skyguy
June 1, 2006, 01:18 PM
I would agree with you if you had said "point shooting comes naturally after some brief instruction and lots of practice", but I think it's a gross oversimplification if you mean it's something anyone can just pick up and do without training.
Surely everybody has a different learning curve and I do agree that we all need to learn the basics.....but I have to agree with Sweatnbullets when he said: "the ability to put your bullets right where you are looking is a very natural and important ability. This is not some skill that takes time to develop."

Glad you could pick up on the technique. :)

One question: Did your training include moving, reactive, shoot/no shoot and various bladed targets.......and more importantly, did you train in low light, darkness?
.

stephen426
June 1, 2006, 01:34 PM
Where are these classes offered and how much do they run? They sound pretty interesting. I'm sure moving affects a bad guy's ability to hit me, but if I can hit him while I am on the move, that would be a very valuable skill.

hso
June 1, 2006, 01:52 PM
Skyguy,

One question: Did your training include moving, reactive, shoot/no shoot and various bladed targets.......and more importantly, did you train in low light, darkness?

That's actually 6 questions and having read your posts in this thread it's painfully obvious to any idiot that your question is a trap.

Since I'm not just any idiot I'll answer;) .

No.

From my perspective that's some of the material for the next level to be given. If I spent this weekend learning the skills presented and I'm a good boy and practice so that I'm ready for the next class picking up those skills you listed should come too.

BTW - I've repeatedly trained with Simunitions against others in a dark shoot house and having had the basics under ITFTS I do believe it's possible to use ITFT to teach people to do what you suggest in a second level 2-day course.

Please remember that my buddy who can't see the front sights and can't see the holes in the target clearly still made COM hits while falling.

Skyguy
June 1, 2006, 06:47 PM
That's actually 6 questions and having read your posts in this thread it's painfully obvious to any idiot that your question is a trap.
Sorry if I offended you. You just seemed so eager to talk about your training that I thought I could get more details about Quick Kill training.

Since targets are such an integral part of training and most gun encounters occur in low light and darkness, I needed to ask.

From my perspective that's some of the material for the next level to be given.
There ya go. I didn't even know that there was a next level of Quick Kill training or that it uses the bladed, moving targets, etc and trains in low light/darkness.
Does that level cost $400 too?

Thanks for the heads up.
.

hso
June 1, 2006, 08:01 PM
Skyguy,

I'm not offended if you're not. I understand you're an advocate of lasers and it seems like you make your living off of training to them (at least in part). I'm just a guy who has taken some classes. So I'm not interested in the promotional games trainers get into.

I think the laser has a role in self defense shooting just like point shooting does and just like aimed shooting does. I'm just not one of those people that think there's only one universal right technique that can be applied to all situations. Where trainers make their mistakes and end up looking like jackasses to the guys who pay them is in trying to convince everyone that they have the one true faith that must be followed.

I've never trained with lasers. I have trained in aimed fire and I've now trained in point shooting. I think each does something that is best in certain applications. At ranges out to 15 to 21 feet I bet a good student trained in point shooting will put effective holes in the target quicker than either the aimed or laser student. I put holes on paper as fast as I could draw and point and I stake no claims at being a good student. At ranges from 21 to 30 feet I bet there will be a crossover point that the laser student will start to match and begin to beat the point shooting student for groups on time. I did fine all the way out to 24 to 27 feet. Beyond 30 feet I'd bet the laser student gets better groups just as fast as the point shooting student and the laser and aimed fire student begin their cross over with laser at some point soon after that. Each technique probably has it's "sweet spot" where it excells for each individual. The numbers I used are just estimations and would vary for each individual, but I bet an honest student that put the equivalent effort into each would see similar relationships.

Point shooting and laser aiming and aimed fire are all just tools that we can learn. The differences between laser and point shooting are probably very small when put into practice by someone trained in each (I guess I need to find a laser course to take now that I've said that so at least I'll know:rolleyes: ). Where laser would depart significantly from point shooting would be around that 30 ft. point. Aimed fire is pretty different from either, but I know point shooting compliments it and I bet laser does as well (and I bet they all compliment each other).

What I liked about the ITFTS training is that it was never touted as a replacement for using the sights. It augemented defensive handgun shooting and used point shooting where it was strongest and didn't try to compete where sights were a stronger technique. That makes a good training system to me.

Like I said, I'm just an average schmo that took the ITFTS course this weekend in Knoxville that's had some other training. I was told that the next level contained a bunch of stuff we didn't do that included some of what Skyguy wants to see done. I've done shoot house and FOF in shoot house and FOF in shoot house in low/no light with simunitions and all the things we've talked about and I hope the next level of ITFTS includes that, but I just don't know for sure. But I'll ask.:D

Sweatnbullets
June 1, 2006, 10:13 PM
Where are these classes offered and how much do they run? They sound pretty interesting. I'm sure moving affects a bad guy's ability to hit me, but if I can hit him while I am on the move, that would be a very valuable skill.

Hello Stephen, I am located in Vegas, brownie is located in Phoenix, 7677 is located in Ohio, and Steve2267 is located in Denver. We can also come to you if you get a group together.

The dynamic movement aspect of the course is what I brought to the party, so if that is what you are interested in......VEGAS BABY!:D ;)

The group courses run $400 and the private courses are a bit higher.

Sweatnbullets
June 1, 2006, 10:35 PM
Sorry guys, I do not even read skyguys posts anymore. He has had it in for all of us Threat Focused guys for some time now. He has sent us a number of PM's stating how much fun he has "baiting" us in an effort to destroy our business. Positive AAR's like these send him back to his baiting ways everytime.

"Here fishy fishy":D

He is a non-entity to us and someone that will continue to harass us as long as he is allowed to.

Sooooo, how about if we get back on topic. For the guys that took the time to read "Shooting To Live" found here.http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/shooting_to_live.pdf

Here is a little something to go along with your new FAS PSing skills.

Ten Elements of Threat Focused Shooting
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Threat focus shooting is something that is best done without thinking about it. It is a technique that is best shown, then done. That is the truth of the matter, but because of this it is often seen as some sort of parlor trick or worse, something that is not accurate or dependable. I would like to take an approach to this that I have not seen before. That approach being, to try to break down why threat focus shooting actually works. By breaking it down to it's "bare bones" we could take some of the mystique away.

There are many elements that go into accurate threat focused shooting and by knowing exactly what those elements are we will see that we are actually using a very well developed aiming system. By knowing that it is a well developed aiming system, the confidence in the technique will soar and when the time comes that you need it, it will be there like a trusted friend.

First lets look at the elements of sighted fire.

(1)Kinesthetic alignment

(2)Sight alignment

(3)Sight picture

This is a very simple and highly effective form of sighting in. But it is also something that is, in the most part, done on a conscious level.


Now let us look at the elements of threat focus shooting.

(1) Understanding and ability to square up.

(2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.

(3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."

(4) Understanding and ability to use your true visual centerline or as 7677 calls it, the nose index.

(6) Understanding and ability to use a body index.

(5) Kinesthetic alignment.

(7) Use of peripheral vision verification.

(8) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

(9) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.

(10) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

When broken down into it's elements it hardly looks mystical anymore. It seems to be a highly developed aiming system. Another thing to take into consideration is that almost all of this is done on a subconscious level. These are elements that you do not have to think about. That is why threat focused shooting is best done without thinking about it. Once you know the elements, trained with the elements, it all comes together in a micro second with zero conscious thought. This is why threat focused shooting excels in dynamic confrontations. It is a natural human response.

******************************************************************************

There is a lot of misconception out there that threat focused shooting and especially FAS, is stance or position dependent. This is just not the case. "Shooting to Live" and "Bullseyes don't Shooot Back" cover the basics of threat focus shooting, nothing more.

The basics elements are as follows,

(1) Understanding and ability to square up.

(2) Understanding and ability to use the centerline.

(3) Understanding and ability to draw "Parallel to the ground."

(4) Understanding and ability to use a body index.

(5) Kinesthetic alignment.

(6) Use of ones natural ability to point your finger at an object.

The advanced elements take threat focus shooting to a whole other level, this is where you begin to make hits from any position, from any angle, with no conscious thought.

(1) Understanding and ability to use your true visual centerline, or what 7677 calls, your nose index.

(2) Use of peripheral vision verification.

(3) Use of ones natural hand/eye coordination.

(4) Absolute confidence, knowing this all adds up to a very accurate system.

The tenth element (absolute confidence) is the key and the ultimate goal. You can never reach your full potential until you a firm grasps of the basic elements and an absolute understanding of the advanced elements.

Skyguy
June 1, 2006, 11:29 PM
I think the laser has a role in self defense shooting just like point shooting does and just like aimed shooting does.

First off, I never mentioned lasers, you did.

But, for the record, I've always said here that it's point shooting out to about 20 ft, laser out to about 50ft and sights past that. It's a combination....a system.

I tout Lasergrips because they work and are indeed an immediate tactical advantage. You simply superimpose the laser on the threat.
That's 'real' Threat Focused shooting and it's very accurate.

Many master trainers use them for training and recommend them for defense/carry. They are superior to any sight system for old or weak eyes, in low light, darkness, indoors, from over/under/around cover and from awkward positions. That's just fact.
The master trainers teach all that. They're champion shooters and military/LE trainers like Jim Cirillo, Ernie Langdon, Ken Hackathorn, Mas Ayoob, Tod Jarret, et al. Ever heard of those guys?

I often explain that a deviation of 1/4" at the barrel either up, down or sideways is a massive 16" deviation @ 20ft. A mere 1/8" deviation is an 8" deviation at 20 ft....enough to wing a stationary target, but usually a complete miss of the com. Ponder that.
Throw in movement, the semi-reality of moving, bladed, shoot/no-shoot targets, etc and you'd better be a damn good shot.
With a laser you just place the dot and you 'will' hit that spot. Accuracy rules.

Learn here:
Laser Training and Defense Technique Video.....http://www.crimsontrace.com/ltdt.wmv
Master Trainers Video.....http://www.crimsontrace.com/mtsvid.wmv

Ask your next instructor if he'd be willing to go up against a trained laser equipped bad guy in low light or darkness.
His answer will tell you a lot. :)

Well, they'll probably lock this thread now, but just maybe one more person will have gotten the message that could save his life.
.

hso
June 2, 2006, 06:18 AM
First off, I never mentioned lasers, you did.

Uh, and Crimson Trace and laser sights that you've been touting uses red fairies, I suppose. You can't honestly not understand that the little red light comes from a laser since 7 of your replys were promoting laser sights or Crimson Trace in particular?

Now I am insulted, at least my intelligence is. You can play your sophomore debate games with other trainers all you want, but I was decent enough to answer your questions as someone who'd taken the course and you shift from word games to lying.



Buh by, Skytroll.

Skyguy
June 2, 2006, 11:50 AM
My sincere apologies to you, hso. I never meant to offend your sensibilities or your intelligence.
You are exactly right, I did mention Lasergrips and laser sighting in other posts. But, I did not consciously lie.

I suppose I was caught up in our 'immediate' conversation about your satisfaction from Quick Kill training and my curiousity about the actual training technique, targets, etc. That stuff is never mentioned in the marketing.
I did learn though, that there are more advanced levels to that system....and more to learn.

I'm equally sorry that you chose not to respond to the actual gist of my post which contained some very valuable information, videos and testimonials from world class 'master' trainers....... and chose only to respond to my bad.

Finally, I don't want to debate the merits of so many of the commercialized self defense businesses here. It's like debating the merits of the various martial arts. It goes nowhere.
All I ever say is that I do judo. :))
.

riverrat66
June 2, 2006, 12:06 PM
I agree with Sweatnbullets when he said that this was a very informative thread and it is rare that we see so much agreement on the "fundamentals" of shooting on the move. BUT it seems to have gotten sidetracked because of the "one-up-man-ship" and "I just gotta have the last word" by some individuals and that takes all the fun out of even reading the damn thread. Too much bickering because someone is just too damn stubborn to admit that maybe there is more then one way to skin a cat spoils it for everyone. Why must everyone insist that their way is the only way? Chill out guys, life is too short.

Capt Charlie
June 2, 2006, 01:18 PM
Buh by, Skytroll.
Skytroll??? :rolleyes:

Why must everyone insist that their way is the only way? Chill out guys, life is too short.
Riverrat66 said it for me.

Well, they'll probably lock this thread now
Yep.

For the record guys, we can't, and wouldn't even if we could, monitor private messages. Private means just that. You can beat each other silly via PM's, but when you take it to the forums, it's a Problem, and Problems lead to locked threads, at the least.

Understand that I'm not taking sides here. Several here have displayed extremely parochial views, and debates should always result in something constructive. When neither side will concede a point, nothing constructive comes of it. Consider my sig line,....please!