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View Full Version : guy I know killed an intruder here's the story


Doggieman
May 3, 2006, 09:50 PM
I met a guy awhile back, friend of a friend, I'll call him John. He comes from a rich family but you wouldn't know it as he's got tattoos and such all over him and doesn't do anything for a living, anything at all.

Anyway we were sitting around his place the first time I met him -- me, my friend, John and his girlfriend drinking, smoking a little and my friend says "so tell him your story".. John has this story that he tells EVERYONE, if I remember it correctly here it goes:

So John's a gun collector and has plenty of them and usually kept one on the nightstand (I don't know what caliber or type). He was laying on his bed one day as usual doing nothing. From his bed he could could see the front door of his apartment through a mirror in the hallway (it was apparently another apartment not the one we were in when he was telling me this). And what do you know, as he's sitting there on his bed in the afternoon smoking and watching TV he sees the front door open and a guy wearing all black with a ponytail peer in. Next thing the guy comes into the house and John sees he's got a gun in his hand.

So after his eyes stop popping out of his head John picks up his gun and goes down the hallway and looks around the corner and the guy is in his living room checking out John's stuff. His back is turned and John knows enough that he doesn't want to pop the guy in the back so he aims his gun at the guy and goes, "Hey!" The guy turns around and (so John says) raises his weapon, whereby John starts shooting.

John gave a surprisingly accurate account of where all the bullets went, maybe the cops told him later I don't know. But he ended up unloading his entire magazine, a dozen or so shots, into the guy. And according to John all but the last round connected with the guy's upper torso, neck or head. The last shot went over his head because by that time he was slumping to the floor, or what was left of him was anyway.

John said that all the movies he'd seen up until then didn't prepare him for the amount of blood and bone that splattered not only on the floor but on the walls and the ceiling. Everywhere, but more on that in a sec.

So after the slide locked open John staggered over to the phone and dialed 911 and told them what happened. The 911 operator told him to put the gun down and stay on the phone. Apparently someone else had already called and they were sending cops. So John waited there on the phone and the cops came and threw open the door and freaked when they saw the body and all the blood and roughly grabbed John and hauled him away. They got him to the police station and told him to make a list of everyone he knew because they apparently thought it was some sort of drug deal gone bad (which, knowing John, I wouldn't really be that surprised if it had been).

Anyway John said he wanted to talk to an attorney and then he called his dad and his dad called apparently some big shot attorney who marched in with 3 other attorneys and told John not to say anything or write anything or sign anything. And the cops never pressed any charges but John says his record now has something like "Justifiable homicide" on it that comes up whenever a cop runs his ID, so any time he gets pulled over the cop will ask him about it and he'll tell his whole story again. He also says that initially the cops harassed him about the fact that he shot the guy so many times but his lawyers told him that the police are trained to empty their weapons when shooting an assailant (not sure about that one) and I guess that shut 'em up.

So John got home and they'd carted off the body but all the blood and assorted fragments were still all over and there were teeth parts embedded in his wall. He had to have the carpet replaced and the drywall torn out and totally redone and soon afterward he left the apartment.

So that's the story. Maybe John's on this board, I don't know, that would be crazy. Maybe he would recognize his own story.

<Foster>
May 3, 2006, 11:23 PM
Man... its a grizzly business when you really think about it. I hope i never have to do anything like that, but its comforting (in a way i guess) that he emptied an entire clip into the guy and didnt get convicted of anything. Man thatd be a pain havin that on your record tho.

Doggieman
May 3, 2006, 11:49 PM
that's one thing about the story (not the only thing) that I question though.. is it true that even if you're never charged you'd have something like that on your record? That just seems strange to me.

GlocksRfun
May 4, 2006, 12:58 AM
Yeah, kinda hard to get your security deposit back when u leave asorted body parts immbedded in the wall and blood staining pretty much everything.

Josh Aston
May 4, 2006, 01:07 AM
That story reaks of BS. Beginning from the fact that he had no qualms about discussing it with you and continuing on to the cops being trained to empty there mags. And just about everything in between as well.

Glock 31
May 4, 2006, 01:12 AM
Not to doubt your friend's word on the matter, but it seems a little hard to believe. I've never heard of any self defense class that teaches to unload clips into people, regardless of the situation. The more rounds you use, the harder it is to justify it in court. But ok, assuming he got off for it, I'm surprised to hear that the blood and bone stuff was still all over. Because in any shooting death incident, after detectives check the scene over and are done with their findings, it is required procedure to have a professional cleaning crew, usually specializing in crime scene cleanup, to come in and deep clean everything. And I mean everything. They're supposed to pull up carpet, knock out walls, whatever it takes to make it like it never happened. Probably cause of biohazard procedures. You know having some guys fluids sprayed all over an apartment complex is not exactly condusive to sanitary living.

But assuming everything with his story is straight, +1 to your friend. Can't say I feel bad for the BG.:cool:

Doggieman
May 4, 2006, 01:28 AM
I can't comment on the veracity of his story, since I have no idea. I can just say that the above is what he told me to the best of my remembrance. I believed the essence of the story at the time, and I still do. However, I have my doubts as to certain details. He'd have to be an absolute nut to make up a story like that out of the blue and tell everyone he knows about it if it were completely false. Stranger things have happened for sure, but I'd put my money on it being 75% true at least.

Doggieman
May 4, 2006, 01:36 AM
here's an article on crime scene cleanup-- apparently it's a relatively recent thing. Wasn't till 1993 that the first dedicated crime scene cleanup company came into existence on the East Coast.

http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sonoma/01.21.99/gore-9903.html

According to the article:

"Also, [John Birrer] had been present on numerous occasions when, after the coroner had removed the body and police had concluded their investigation, the stunned survivors would stand outside the victim's home, frozen with uncertainty and remorse, unsure what to do next.

"It's not the responsibility of law enforcement to clean up at a death scene, unfortunately," he affirms. "But I saw plenty of people--these people are already more overwhelmed than they'd ever been in their lives--with no idea what to do next. So there was a definite need for experienced professionals to step in."

Since the incident happened in the mid-90's I can imagine a situation where no pro clean up crew would come.

Billy Sparks
May 4, 2006, 06:28 AM
The PD or whoever is in no way responsible for cleanup after a crime/accident whatever occured at least not in NC. With that said I think his story is slightly suspect. In my years in emergency services I have ran several shootings, except for the occassional shotgun in the mouth I have never seen "teeth parts embedded in the walls". What was he shooting at him with a anti-tank gun?

Edited to add: Now I have seen the preverbal "Brains dripping from the ceilings" but usualy the gun was very close to the victim when it happened (suicide or execution).

NukemJim
May 4, 2006, 06:54 AM
I've never heard of any self defense class that teaches to unload clips into people, regardless of the situation.

I've been throught several classes that teach "shoot till the threat is over" if that means emptying the firearm then that is what you do.

NukemJim

PS I do not know but my BS detector is going off about that story.

ironrice
May 4, 2006, 10:03 AM
Weather the story is BS or not I don't see how it would be hard to justify unloading your clip in court. Look at the Amadu(I forgot how to spell his name) case in NY. The cops, 3 or 4 of them, unloaded all their clips, something like 49 shots total and they were not charged with anything even though the guy they shot had no weapon. The guy was not the criminal they were looking for either, he was a cab driver that got chased by plain clothed officers and got shot. So unloading a clip into a bad guy doesn't seem like it's a bad thing or something they can use against you in court. You're running on adrenaline and it can be justified in that way. In the military they don't necessary teach to unload your clip on a target but you engage until the target is no threat. So if he unloaded his clip and most of his shots hit the guy then the bad guy was still a threat till the last bullet.

Pat Rogers
May 4, 2006, 10:15 AM
Ironrice
When putting something in print, it is good to have your facts straight. Unlike the spoken word, what is in writing is forever.
So, would you care to state your authority - where you received these so called facts from?

RoSAR1
May 4, 2006, 10:22 AM
You wouldn't have justifiable homicide on your record, your friends either an idiot or a liar. The only time something goes on your record is when YOU BREAK THE LAW and are convicted of that crime. I call BS

Avizpls
May 4, 2006, 10:32 AM
And according to John all but the last round connected with the guy's upper torso, neck or head. The last shot went over his head because by that time he was slumping to the floor, or what was left of him was anyway

It takes a long time for a 200 pound man to drop to the floor when he stops holding himself up.

PythonGuy
May 4, 2006, 10:41 AM
This reads just like a novel I recently finished down to the teeth, except in the novel they were imbedded in a guy's abdomen. I can't recall the authors name at the moment, he has a series with this mercenary who is an action hero type, but his writings sound very much like this narrative. Just as real too I'm sure. :cool:

ironrice
May 4, 2006, 10:54 AM
Alright pat care to be more specific? When you're writing to get some facts you need to be more specific on what you want to know. My military training or the Amadu incident in NY?
Here is Amadou Diallo who was killed my NYPD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo_(shooting_victim)
Here's another article about him:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/aroundthenation/nypd/
and another one:
http://www.courttv.com/trials/diallo/
So I'm sorry it wasn't 49 shots, it was 41 shots and 19 hit this guy. So do I have my facts straight? Not really but the incident really happened. Also, I was merely stating an opinion about unloading your clip. I said "... unloading a clip into a bad guy doesn't SEEM like it's a bad thing or something they can use against you in court." It was an opinion not a fact. I did major in Criminal Justice in college and I admit I'm not a law expert but this is just my opinion. Now with my military training I don't have to justify that to you. I serve my country and serve it well. I'm a pilot in the Air Force so we don't train on small weapons tactics like Security Forces or the Army but we do get trained and they train us to stop a treat until it's not a threat. So my question to you is why does it seem like your tone is very judgement and condecending?

Capt Charlie
May 4, 2006, 12:34 PM
And the cops never pressed any charges but John says his record now has something like "Justifiable homicide" on it that comes up whenever a cop runs his ID, so any time he gets pulled over the cop will ask him about it and he'll tell his whole story again.
I can't swear to the policies of all 50 states, but the Computerized Criminal History (CCH) files in NCIC are highly restricted. Not all officers have access to them and every inquiry must be justified with an active investigation case number, and they are all audited to ensure compliance.

When you run a vehicle tag or driver's license query, you don't get anything back involving a criminal history, unless it happens to be an active warrant, and even then, the reply is restricted to that only.

I don't know about the rest of the story, but that part of it makes me somewhat suspicious of the whole. I'm not questioning your veracity, but I suspect your friend has embellished the story somewhat.

Pat Rogers
May 4, 2006, 12:54 PM
Ironrice,
Thank you for your service to your country.
I am cognizant on how the services train, and how little training most in the military receive. Having just finished training some CATM's, i understand that outside of AFSOC, most pilots shoot 1x every two years. Feel free to correct me if i missated what they told me.
Having said that...
Re Diallo.
You stated "3 or 4". Actually four MOS from Street Crime were involved in the shooting. While a minor point here, it wasn't so minor when it is official.

You stated "All unloaded their (sic) clips".
Untrue. Two officers did shoot their guns dry, but two didn't.

You stated "they were not charged with anything"
Again untrue. They were indicted and charged with Murder 2. They were acquitted after trial. Pretty big difference, no?

You stated he was a cab driver
Actually he was a street vendor

Every organization, cop, fed or mil that i have worked with, been assigned to or traines has to follow either the law or ROE. Deadly Physical Force is not something to be taken lightly of course, and the way it is applied is always subject to review.
Shooting until the threat is stopped is an excellent guideline.
Having been a cop in NYPD, and having used my revolver for real, and having been in front of the Grand Jury and testify at trial may give me a different outlook on this, much the same as your outlook and slipping the surly bonds might be different then mine.

The reason why the errornet is such a bad place for information is because anyone can post anything, and everyone will immediately believe it.

ironrice
May 4, 2006, 12:58 PM
Alright, cool. This case happened a long time ago and I should have checked the references before I posted. Some of the facts were wrong, will do next time.:) And with the Air Force, pilots hardly get trained in small weapon tactics. When were you in NYPD? I used to live in Newark NJ and this was a big case up there.

Pat Rogers
May 4, 2006, 01:15 PM
73-93, and happily retired from there. What do you drive?

RoSAR1
May 4, 2006, 03:34 PM
Captain Charlie, I was told by a sheriff that in Ohio when you're pulled over the officer sees EVERYTHING, even things you did as a juvenile that have been exponged. I doubt he was lying because he was a good friend of my best friends mother and the conversation was had while he was off duty so he wasn't trying to scare anyone.

Capt Charlie
May 4, 2006, 04:04 PM
Captain Charlie, I was told by a sheriff that in Ohio when you're pulled over the officer sees EVERYTHING, even things you did as a juvenile that have been exponged. I doubt he was lying because he was a good friend of my best friends mother and the conversation was had while he was off duty so he wasn't trying to scare anyone.
Nope. I don't know why he told you that other than kidding. I've been a certified LEADS/NCIC operator with CCH access for over 24 years. NCIC (National Crime Information Center) maintains and controls the CCH (Computerized Criminal History) files and is run by the FBI. Each state has its own system, but they are overseen by the FBI.

Ohio LEADS (Law Enforcement Automated Data System) is no exception, and the results of a CCH query are so closely guarded that the computer screen displaying the results must be shielded from public view, and hard copy printouts must be shredded after use. Violations can result in that entire department's access to NCIC being revoked.

Further, expunged means expunged. Only the court can open sealed records, and no law enforcement officer has access to them without a court order. In Ohio, juvenile records are automatically expunged when said juvenile turns 18.

Nortonics
May 4, 2006, 04:14 PM
LOL! - Set down the crack pipe every so-often and come back to reality boyz.

leadcounsel
May 4, 2006, 04:41 PM
I call BS.

Several things in the story don't add up.

Why would some stranger tell you this? I don't buy it. This guy's trying to make friends or impress you and make you think he's a tough guy or above the law or whatever.

Didn't the cops smell the weed that your friend was smoking either on him or in the apartment?

Didn't the cops search the apartment? In any shooting I think it reasonable that the cops could and would search (snoop through) the remainder of the apartment for possible dangers -- whereupon they discover weed?

I don't think anything would have been on his record, but am not sure.

I don't think that the carnage is going to be quite what he described from any typical handgun.

I find it hard to believe that John squeezed off a full magazine of ammo, missed only once, and the BG didn't seem to get a shot off. And the BG continued to stand up during the entire magazine being emptied but couldn't muster the strength to shoot back?! Right! He either would fall immediately or if not he'd shoot back. Which is it? Real life isn't the movies where people get shot and just stand there taking shot after shot.

Teeth imbedded in the wall. I doubt it. Brains on the ceiling! I doubt it. Did he lob a grenade at the guy?

John apparently gave the BG a chance to shoot back by yelling "Hey" and letting him turn around. Either very stupid or embellished or a lie. How about the phrase, "Don't move and drop your gun or I'll shoot."

Lawyers aren't going to show up at crime scenes in groups of 3. It's completely unnecessary. I've never heard of such a thing.

The armed intruder didn't bother looking to see if anyone was in the UNLOCKED apartment, but instead just went over to look at the stereo! Doubt it.

The whole story smells of BS. Sorry.

Powderman
May 4, 2006, 06:42 PM
Captain Charlie, I was told by a sheriff that in Ohio when you're pulled over the officer sees EVERYTHING, even things you did as a juvenile that have been exponged. I doubt he was lying because he was a good friend of my best friends mother and the conversation was had while he was off duty so he wasn't trying to scare anyone.

CPT Charlie is giving you the straight stuff.

The CHRI (Criminal History Records Index) is severely restricted, due to the potential for great misdoing at the hands of the person accessing the records.

You MUST have a valid reason for a criminal history check (pedigree).

Here, I (and other cops in this State--or any other) can only request a check based on an articulable contact, and at no other time. There are severe penalties including jail time and stiff fines for misuse of the system.

I usually have several such checks during a patrol shift. These are always printed out in hard copies--which are enclosed in full with the additional items to be filed with my report. In other words, they don't even leave the station.

And, the only time that criminal history shows up is if you HAVE a criminal history. Casual contact with an officer does not count. You have to be arrested, arraigned, tried and convicted. (except for some traffic offenses)

erh
May 4, 2006, 06:48 PM
Hi Guys/ Gals,

I say ":barf: "; a friend of a friend is either out of his mind for enjoying talk (or even thinking about it much...), or full of CR_P..! Do any of "YOU" like the......; any of it..?

Eric Howland
Savannah, GA.

Doggieman
May 4, 2006, 09:41 PM
well you guys could be right, could just be 100% BS. Glad I posted here to see what you all think about it. I don't know the guy anymore so it doesn't offend me if you say he's full of it.

Heraclid
May 6, 2006, 12:32 PM
I'd be seriously questioning the company I keep if I were you. If you aren't surprised that this guy could be involved in drug deals, and if he goes around telling everyone this story like he's so proud of it and so unphased by it...

Side story - I briefly worked with a guy who seemed like a good guy and all, but my mother had an acquaintance who knew him and his ex-wife. Said he was into the whole drug scene too and was not allowed to come onto his ex-wife's property. I found this out about him AFTER I gave him a ride home from work one day. You guessed it - he had me drop him off at his ex's place. :eek:

silicon wolverine
May 6, 2006, 01:29 PM
You cant belive everything you see onthe net. Im calling BS too. Yes pistol shots that penetrate create blood splatter, but they DO NOT cause teeth to become embedded in the sheetrock. Bone fragments-Maybe. After having seen the leftovers of a nasty gunfight (indian reservation, acahol and an illegal UZI were involved) most blood stays on the victims clothes and near proximity. The guy i saw get shot got hit 6 times in the torso (no penetrations) and the only blood was on his shirt from the entry holes. Now if he was shoothing with a .50AE or .450 COR-BON or something wild yes that would create large amounts of flying liquid.

SW

Doggieman
May 6, 2006, 03:27 PM
If you aren't surprised that this guy could be involved in drug deals, and if he goes around telling everyone this story like he's so proud of it and so unphased by it...


Well to be quite honest, my past isn't spotless either.. ;)

Mikeyboy
May 9, 2006, 01:37 PM
The guy is lying...Like other LEO have said you don't get a record unless you get charged with a crime. I had a job where I looked at criminal records all day for employment. I never seen that before. Also unless they are on TV no one robs a house in the middle of the day wearing all black. Here is a story of a guy who shot a unarmed naked guy who broke into his house 9 times, and got manslaughter. Like silicone said, the real deal there is less blood splattered around than in the movies.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=2805120&BRD=1672&PAG=461&dept_id=33380&rfi=6

guntotin_fool
May 9, 2006, 05:07 PM
As a contractor, one of my jobs a long time ago was repairing work after the Clean up crew had been in there...(regarding the formation of the first death scene company in the 90's, Service-master has had a division doing way longer than that. Also several other disaster services companies I have worked with did that kind of restoration work.) I was called in to bid on replacing stained wood floors and replacing wall board after several shootings. Most were suicides. but a few were murders. I have no idea if the guys story is true or not, BUT I have seen enough shoot sites to say that yeah, a .357 or larger can blow body debris a long way inside a house. a twelve guage in the mouth will just about paint the ceiling or wall. A 45 auto loaded with ball will pass thru every time.

Now, after doing that for a few years, we got a call to a house where the homeowner had passed away to natural causes the day she was planning to visit her condo in florida. She had canceled her mail, shut off the phone and packed her bags when she broke her hip and died on the floor. No one thought she was home and it took approximately 60 days till a utility worker noticed that she had not paid her bill despite never missing a payment in some 40 years. Cops were dispatched to find her remains lying near the dead phone. We got called in to look at replacing the flooring in the living room which were stained. The smell in the house was unbelievable, despite being cleaned professionally by people trained in that area of restoration, every time the heat would come on, we would get nauseated, After three attempts at cleaning and deodorizing, including one whole house bagging, and fumigation. The insurance company finally decided to have the house razed and rebuilt. The poor womans only relative was a niece in California who had little or no contact with her, she did not go to church and had been retired for nearly 20 years from a large department store. When we had the back hoe and knocked the house down, even then the smell was overpowering

Doggieman
May 9, 2006, 06:54 PM
good god!

Capt Charlie
May 9, 2006, 11:20 PM
The smell in the house was unbelievable, despite being cleaned professionally by people trained in that area of restoration, every time the heat would come on, we would get nauseated,....
I've been on a few of those GF, and you're right; it's a smell that never ever leaves, and it's one you never ever forget. It's totally different from a dead animal. It coats the hairs and lining of your nose, and you smell it for days after. And you might as well burn your clothes. Our coroner gave me a tip that helps.... some. Smear Vics Vapo-rub up your nose before you go in. You still smell it later though :( .

I've been on literally dozens of suicides and homicides by a firearm, and except for a shotgun, very few of them splatter teeth & bone around a room. Blood, yes. Now point blank impact to the skull will do that sometimes. A young man a few years ago decided to impress his friends by putting a .38 spl. snubbie to his temple and pulling the trigger. He forgot to unload it. I found a 2" piece of his skull three feet away on the ground. Believe it or not, he lived for about 20 minutes and gasped his last breath in front of me.

Now the gentleman that removed the upper half of his head with a 12 ga. here a few years back did quite literally "paint the room". That was the only one where I got literally and thoroughly sick.

But being shot from a distance with a handgun, at least from my experience, will rarely embed teeth in the wall. Possible, I guess, but t'ain't likely.

Mannlicher
May 10, 2006, 01:48 PM
this really, really sounds like a made up story. Not saying that its untruthful, but it kinda pegged my BS meter out.

Hedley
May 10, 2006, 02:00 PM
Man, that raises a problematic question for me. I always have a loaded .38sp in the bedroom, but was thinking of adding a 12g shotty too...but then I started thinking. If some dick were too invade my house, would I really want to dirty up the walls something fierce? You know that would be an instant "Time to move to a new house" situation. I know it sounds morbid and ridiculous, but I almost have more of a problem getting my place messy than disabling or fatally wounding an assailant.

UniversalFrost
May 10, 2006, 02:31 PM
I have seen the aftermath of many CQB's while in the sand box (thank god I never had to be involved) and I have never seen teeth in a wall (not saying a 12 ga to the head wouldn't do the trick), but even when a grenade fraggs a guy it just sends splatter and little parts all over the place. The part about the stench is true. Had a post once where a guy got hit in the belly (took his vest off because he was hot, dumb!!) and the place smelled so bad a month later that we abandonded it and built another down the way. The story sounds made up and pure BS, when you have to kill somebody it isn't something you want to brag about afterwords, that is for the guys that were never there and never saw combat (REMF types with lots of souveniors and pictures that they show everybody). If you ever meet a vet (cop or military) and he doesn't want to talk about things of this nature it was because he most liekly pulled the trigger when needed, its the guys that are bragging openly that are full of BS and never did anything. that's my 2 cents.

Doggieman
May 10, 2006, 05:01 PM
Man, that raises a problematic question for me. I always have a loaded .38sp in the bedroom, but was thinking of adding a 12g shotty too...but then I started thinking. If some dick were too invade my house, would I really want to dirty up the walls something fierce? You know that would be an instant "Time to move to a new house" situation. I know it sounds morbid and ridiculous, but I almost have more of a problem getting my place messy than disabling or fatally wounding an assailant.

You could simply ask him to step into the shower before pulling the trig.

Hedley
May 10, 2006, 06:05 PM
haha, and I wouldn't want to get some sort of blood-carried disease either. I can just imagine it; "Uh excuse me Mr. robber, but would you mind stepping into the bathroom...no, no...more towards the shower. Oh, and let my put some safety goggles. Safety first."

Heraclid
May 10, 2006, 06:17 PM
Thank God I do not know that stench, but it reminds me of something. There is a myth that an old samurai test of a new katana was how many bodies (supposedly sometimes living ones) it would cut through in one deft stroke. I recall reading a rebuke of this myth that listed this odor as one of the reasons it was not done.

Lawyer Daggit
May 11, 2006, 01:27 AM
I would question the 'record' bit- if your not convicted you don't have a record. If you did it could give rise to discrimination.

tanksoldier
May 11, 2006, 04:44 AM
Don't know if they still do, but some departments used to teach that for liability reasons. If cop #1 shoots a perp twice, and in another incident cop #2 has to shoot the perp 5 times some ignorant anti liberal might question if cop # 2 used excessive force. If everybody emptied their weapon, there's no question.



<<I've never heard of any self defense class that teaches to unload clips into people, regardless of the situation.>>

Dr. Courtney
May 11, 2006, 07:21 AM
Not to doubt your friend's word on the matter, but it seems a little hard to believe. I've never heard of any self defense class that teaches to unload clips into people, regardless of the situation. The more rounds you use, the harder it is to justify it in court.

It's hard to say if the story is embellished a bit or some details have been recalled incorrectly. However, I know a number of self-defense trainers who advocate "shoot to lockback". Evan Marshall and Keith Jones are among them.

Shooting a whole magazine is not particularly difficult to justify in court, if the other details of the shooting event are clearly self-defense. A skilled shooter can empty a magazine much faster than it takes for the first hit to create incapacitation, and if the first shot was justified, every follow-up shot is justified as long as the bad guy is still holding a gun and conscious. As a self-defense trainer myself, I certainly would not recommend someone to stop shooting until the gun is empty or until the threat is clearly neutralized.


But ok, assuming he got off for it, I'm surprised to hear that the blood and bone stuff was still all over. Because in any shooting death incident, after detectives check the scene over and are done with their findings, it is required procedure to have a professional cleaning crew, usually specializing in crime scene cleanup, to come in and deep clean everything. And I mean everything.

Not so at all. While this may be the case in some places, I personally know of shooting incidents where the home owner had to take care of the clean up.

They're supposed to pull up carpet, knock out walls, whatever it takes to make it like it never happened. Probably cause of biohazard procedures. You know having some guys fluids sprayed all over an apartment complex is not exactly condusive to sanitary living.

As true as this is, without knowing the location and time frame of the incident, we have no idea the likelihood of the state either providing or mandating the clean-up you mention.

Michael Courtney

Ziryo
May 11, 2006, 06:02 PM
Thank God I do not know that stench, but it reminds me of something. There is a myth that an old samurai test of a new katana was how many bodies (supposedly sometimes living ones) it would cut through in one deft stroke. I recall reading a rebuke of this myth that listed this odor as one of the reasons it was not done.

Sounds like the practice of tameshigiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tameshigiri) which was sometimes done on cadavers or convicted felons.

Hedley
May 11, 2006, 06:26 PM
Speaking of stenches that never go leave your mind, I never knew blood had a smell until I found a highschool friend in his bathtub after he commited suicide. The tub was filled with what seemed like gallons of blood. I can't describe it...metallic almost?, but that is one thing that'll will always stick with me.

all4cwa
May 11, 2006, 09:13 PM
keep firing gentlemen I am liking the sound of it

aspen1964
May 11, 2006, 09:16 PM
...

gordo b.
May 11, 2006, 09:59 PM
"blood had a smell until I found a highschool friend in his bathtub after he commited suicide."


Like sour copper .



In the 80's and before there were some records that were held by the FBI and Depts and DOJ that were called " written notations" or somesuch that were limited in access to active investigations only. This is where 'criminal intelligence files' come in. I know for a fact that records of investigated subjects were kept even if no arrests or indicments were handed down.

That said, the story reeks of drug induced BS.:rolleyes:

the possum
May 24, 2006, 09:01 PM
Jumping in a bit late; I just saw this one.

I have no comments on the veracity of the story or your friend.

However, several people have chimed in to air doubts about the mess created. I have noted similar phenomena (lots of splatter, bone stuck on walls, etc.) several times while doing my particular brand of varmint hunting. I can't recall this ever happening with just one shot, so I'm not surprised it would be absent at a suicide scene. But, after the 7th or 10th hit in the same general area, things have already been "loosened up" substantially, making it easy for the next shot to simply launch any fragments/fluids that are just sitting loosely in the mushy area. IF you can believe the dude took 15 hits in the same general area, then it's not too hard to believe some of those shots basically overlapped. Set a pebble on a golf tee (i.e., so the rock isn't anchored to anything) in front of a wall & shoot it. Fragments do fly with alarming speed.

Harley Quinn
May 24, 2006, 09:29 PM
Blood and splatter is always there when you have head shots. Especially with the bigger hand guns and rifles, shotguns are really ugly.

If he dumped a full mag into someone it would be ugly. Some guys like tats and it is a way of getting attention. So based on that, if he did shoot someone, and you were talking in a bar. It would not be to far fetched to have someone with that persona to want to tell you his lifes story.

A guy blew his brains all over the place in a nice corvette, never did get the smell out of it. He was found several days after it happened. We had a guy who bought and sold cars at the division I worked. He tried everything new headliner etc.. But it was a failure. Parted it out. Did not lose money, just did not make as much as he planned.

B/S or not who knows? But he told you and you believed it enough to post here, so might be true. Weirder things have happened, I can tell you that much.
It is not that hard to conceal smells in houses and apartments. New stuff on the market covers it all up. Need to seal and replace the carpet. Done all the time. Iron is the odor.

HQ

riverrat66
May 24, 2006, 10:59 PM
I've seen three people take head shots and all made quite a mess. The first was a guy in Nam' shot under the chin and the entire back of his head was gone. Although I could see what was left of his brains he actually lived for what seemed like an eternity but in reality was only a few minutes. The second was a neighbor who called me and asked if he should kill himself inside or outside. When I went over there with the police he had done the deed in the basement by putting a shotgun under his chin. Most of his head was splattered in the joist. And the last was my friend, Harley mechanic and fellow Vietnam veteran who could no longer cope so he put his .45 in his mouth while sitting in his car. Yet another casualty of the war.

Personally I think your friends story is complete BS.
when you have to kill somebody it isn't something you want to brag about afterwords, that is for the guys that were never there and never saw combat
I agree with UniversalFrost. It's been almost 40 years since I returned from Vietnam and it's only been recently that I've been able to talk about some of my experiences and after so many years many are difficult to recall except for in my dreams. But the smell of death never goes away.

Riverrat66 out...

publius
May 25, 2006, 10:41 PM
Justifiable homicide is the same thing as murder 3. You have to be convicted to have that on your record.

ATW525
May 26, 2006, 10:52 AM
I've never heard of any self defense class that teaches to unload clips into people, regardless of the situation.

I've been told to shoot until slide lock at a self defense class before.

The only time something goes on your record is when YOU BREAK THE LAW and are convicted of that crime.

I can't speak for every state, but as far I'm aware of the law here in NH, arrest records are kept regardless of whether you're convicted or even charged. You need to petition the court to have those records expunged if you're not charged or you're found not guilty at trial.

That being said, those records still wouldn't just pop up during a routine traffic stop.

Harley Quinn
May 26, 2006, 12:44 PM
So if we are talking a clip it is one thing, if we are talking magazines it is another.

One of the things that seperate the knowledgeable and the ignorant.

Clips hold rounds so they can be placed into the magazine at more then one at a time. Magazines hold the ammo as you place them in one at a time (or with the assistance of the clip) usually having springs and followers.

So lets talk apples and apples. Not trying to be anal, just right.

Many times when you only have a magazine that holds 7 rounds, it is not uncommon for it to be emptied very fast. Same with a six shot revolver or five shot.
Training is the key. Does not sound like the guy was trained and he could have been very scared, could have been involved in a crime with drugs. Or he could have stumbled on someone ment to kill him, and he got the drop on him and exterminated the pest.

HQ

gdeal
May 26, 2006, 01:01 PM
That is why I like a good round. You only need one. Three at the most - you know... 2 to the chest 1 to the head.

9mm_prn
May 26, 2006, 01:37 PM
I am not surprised that the guy in the story would have emptied his mag. Firing a round or two and waiting or standing there looking at the guy to assess his condition can only get you killed IMO. I have been taught to shoot untill you are certain the threat is no longer a threat and if you are not certain shoot untill lockback and reload.

How do you know for certain that your first shots even hit the guy or even if the ones that hit him were enough to do the job? When your adrenaline is pumping and the S%#t is hitting the fan it is easy to loose count of your shots and very hard to detect placement especially when you are moving and hopefully finding cover.

It is alot easier to armchair-quarterback a gunfight from our computers than it is to actually be in the middle of it.

PinnedAndRecessed
May 26, 2006, 04:39 PM
All these posts and nobody has stated the obvious.

Capt Charlie
May 26, 2006, 05:03 PM
All these posts and nobody has stated the obvious.
Um... and that would be.....?

FreakyRedneck
May 30, 2006, 04:11 AM
And, the only time that criminal history shows up is if you HAVE a criminal history.
Casual contact with an officer does not count.
You have to be arrested, arraigned, tried and convicted. (except for some traffic offenses)
Sorry POWDWERMAN, I believe you are wrong about this....Washington State shows all crimianl arrest. Regardless if the person has been arraigned, tried and or convicted. An arrest is an arrest and it does not just go away. Your criminal history check by LE will show the arrest, even if the charges were dismissed.

Capt Charlie
May 30, 2006, 12:43 PM
Sorry POWDWERMAN, I believe you are wrong about this....Washington State shows all crimianl arrest. Regardless if the person has been arraigned, tried and or convicted. An arrest is an arrest and it does not just go away. Your criminal history check by LE will show the arrest, even if the charges were dismissed.
True, IF the check being run is a criminal history check. This is totally different from the check that's done during a routine traffic stop, where that information will not show up.

Driver's license and warrant checks are routine and dissemination of that info is only slightly limited. Criminal history checks are highly restricted, and an inquiry must be justified and documented.

FreakyRedneck
May 31, 2006, 04:45 AM
Capt. Charlie, You are absolutely correct. Thank You for your input. I should have been more clear on the matter.

DunedinDragon
May 31, 2006, 05:38 AM
Quote:
Sorry POWDWERMAN, I believe you are wrong about this....Washington State shows all crimianl arrest. Regardless if the person has been arraigned, tried and or convicted. An arrest is an arrest and it does not just go away. Your criminal history check by LE will show the arrest, even if the charges were dismissed.

True, IF the check being run is a criminal history check. This is totally different from the check that's done during a routine traffic stop, where that information will not show up.

Driver's license and warrant checks are routine and dissemination of that info is only slightly limited. Criminal history checks are highly restricted, and an inquiry must be justified and documented.

Okay, you guys have me confused now. Are you talking in general or just related to Washington state? In Florida your criminal arrest record is available to everyone over the internet. It doesn't matter if the charges were dismissed or you were found not guilty. It stays there unless you petition to get it removed. Maybe Florida's different due to the Sunshine Law, but it sounded to me like you were talking about this in general as if it applies to all states.

Capt Charlie
May 31, 2006, 01:42 PM
Okay, you guys have me confused now.
Understandable, DD; it is confusing.

How restricted the information is depends on the source providing it. A criminal history provided by NCIC (FBI) is highly restricted and a query must be justified by the LE agency requesting it through a case number or other legitimate reason. Non-LE has absolutely NO access this.

On the other hand, if you're a card carrying, paid member of Lexis-Nexis, or other, similar organizations, you, as non-LE, can access the same info, although how in blue blazes THEY get the info is a mystery to me :confused: .

Same thing with driver's license or vehicle registration info. If you walk into my cop shop and ask who a particular car belongs to, we cannot, by law, give you that information. Hell, it's a violation to even let you glance at the computer screen. That has to be shielded from public view.

But again, you can go to the state DMV, and request and get the same information, no strings attached! Go figure!

Every state LE agency is bound by the strictest of restrictions in criminal history queries. The reason is that every state and local LE agency that uses NCIC (that's the vast majority of them) is bound by the FBI's user agreement. A violation of the rules can land the officer involved a whopping big fine, or even imprisonment!

But other governmental agencies (non-LE) that don't subscribe to NCIC, aren't bound by those rules, and so can disseminate info much more easily.

I know; it confuses the hell outta me too sometimes :D .

DunedinDragon
May 31, 2006, 04:51 PM
And what's really ridiculous is I hear them discussing all of these types of things on my scanner all the time. An officer calls in someone by name, even spells the name, and the info dispatcher comes back with their entire criminal background on clear transmissions for anyone that's listening to hear...including their home address.

U.S.SFC_RET
June 20, 2006, 08:55 PM
It's hard to be a gentleman in this case but I smell a rat.:rolleyes:

PinnedAndRecessed
June 20, 2006, 10:06 PM
It's hard to be a gentleman in this case but I smell a rat.

Could you elaborate?