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silicon wolverine
May 3, 2006, 04:29 PM
I just talked to the farmer whos land me and my father inlaw and his son have been hunting on for over 10 years. Never had aproblem. We go talk to him ever year about this time for coyote ,praire dog and deer hunting. This year he says "well i got me acoupel guys from vermont that'll pay me a thousand dollars a head to hunt here this year. If you guys wanna hunt it cost oyu the same." THere aint no loyalty anymore. Money hungry jerks.

SW

GTSteve03
May 3, 2006, 04:45 PM
Times are tough. I imagine doubly so for a farmer. Money doesn't seem to go quite as far as it used to, so people will do what they can to make do.

I can't say I'd be doing the same thing in his situation, but I can see where he's coming from.

Eghad
May 3, 2006, 05:10 PM
well it is his land..... farmers are getting strapped by fuel costs just like everybody else.

willsjeep
May 3, 2006, 05:33 PM
We used to have about the same arrangement with the folks who owned the land around ours. We helped take care of the area ( kept roads clear, gates closed, trash picked up, etc) A few years ago a lot of out of state folks came in and rented it from him. We did not get to hunt on it that year.
When thier lease was up, he came back and offered it to us a lot lower rate than what they paid.
Seems they left trash everywhere, cut trees (owner is big in the timber business) and generally made a mess of the whole place.
Now we pay a small lease and do some of the same stuff we did before.
Let him know that you are still interested and can help him out some.
Good hunting land is getting harder to find and keep every year. It is worth the extra effort to get in good graces with those who own it.
Will

UniversalFrost
May 3, 2006, 05:40 PM
Ask him if it is just for one specific type of game that they are paying to hunt. I had a farmer do the same to me a few years ago when asking for permission to hunt deer (said a few guys from NY were leasing hunting rights), but he said that I could hunt pheasants and prairie dogs, but not deer (with rifle, bow was ok). That's the way it is going nowdays. Times are tough and they are trying to make money anyway they can. Ended up buying a few acres so I don't have to worry about asking for permission anymore (at least for deer).

BUSTER51
May 3, 2006, 05:45 PM
$1000.00 is too <Art's Grammaw was here, removing foul language that won't be posted again.> high :barf: ,unless he gets real say $200.00 a head or so. I think it is unreasonable and you should look for greener pastures .there is a lot of price gougeing going on nowadays .a dollar ain't worth a damn anymore but that is way over the line .just think of it this way those other guys are suckers for paying that much ,and you my friend are just too smart to let that greedy farmer take advantage of you .you may even find a better place to hunt ,good luck and good hunting .;)

rapier144
May 3, 2006, 05:59 PM
What state are you in. In some states the land owner is liable for the safety of those hunting on his land if he charges a fee. But can't be held liable if no fee is charged. That makes a big differance to some people. They don't want to carry the extra insurance. If its that way where you're at it couldn't hurt to mention that to him. Never hurts to try. If nothing else he might be thankful for the info.

Art Eatman
May 3, 2006, 06:56 PM
BUSTER51, I suggest you do a bit of looking around Arizona and find out what it costs, there, to hunt on private land.

Depending on what state you're in, prices can get very high. I was offered some pretty good whitetail land, 3,200 acres at $4/acre. I'd say the place would have worked out for at most six or eight hunters.

A friend of mine over on the Pecos River regularly takes in some $40,000/year from his 4,800 acres.

South Georgia and on down into Florida, good hunting is gonna cost a person somewhere north of $1,000 or $2,000 and even more.

You can always pop for a quick $5K for a Rocky Mountain guided elk hunt.

Back into the 1970s, a bunch of us were leasing a ranch near Uvalde, Texas. Some guys came along and BID, cash offer, four times as much money as we had been paying. $3 an acre for 7,000 acres.

Hey, the price of poker keeps going up...

Art

silicon wolverine
May 3, 2006, 08:47 PM
This guy doenst care if hes liable or not. Hes old enough all he sees is the money. My dad has land but its not very good for hunting so i guess il have to start lookng around. BTW they are paying for complete hunting control of the land and the farmer told me they dont want anyone else hunting on it if they pay.

SW

UniversalFrost
May 3, 2006, 09:11 PM
Aren't you from South Dakota?

Just go and ask somebody else, there is lots of land in SD to hunt on.

Lots of public land as well.

Just start asking around with other farmers, may have to drive a bit, but better than playing deer hunter on the PC during the real deer season.

If no luck, let me know and you can come down and use my land in Yankton county (kinda hard to get a tag for rifle season there) since I won't be able to use it during rifle season this year (bow and muzzel loader season my brother has it reserved).

impact
May 3, 2006, 09:59 PM
My lease cost me $400 a year with a house, beds, running water and all the luxuries of home. But I did not find this lease over night. Do some looking! I also had some really good times hunting on state and fed land. The one thing I don't like about state or fed land is that they have more rules! That sucks!

silicon wolverine
May 3, 2006, 10:12 PM
thanks for the offer universal but i wont be able to drive for deer season this year. The problem in the aera i hunt in (around the Lemmon-Bison-lodgepole area) is all the farmers have had problems with the game fish and parks not wanting to protect thier crops and livestock feed from deer and antelope depradation and then balking on reparations for the damage. This had led to the fact that most small scale farmers wont let you hunt on a GFP tag because of the hatred of the dept. If you wanted to just go shoot one they woudlnt say a thing but thats not my style. There was a large fight last fall when they released those wolves over in Harding county and the ranchers pretty much closed the whole county down for deer hunting that year. I see no difference for this year. This is also starting to bleed into Perkins county where i hunt. They killed a mountain lion about 20 miles from my dads farm a few eeeks ago and the damn cat was one they bred and released. then to top it off they refused to pay the damages to the ladys car that hit it. the GFP agent said she shoudl back off or theyd charge her with killing a protected species. Needless to say THAT really improved relations between the GFP and farmers/ranchers.

SW

Trip20
May 4, 2006, 09:27 AM
THere aint no loyalty anymore. Money hungry jerks.

The landowner might say:

People always want somethin' for nothin'. Ungrateful punks.

Rather than bad-mouth this landowner, you should take him out to dinner for letting your family have the privilege of hunting on his land for "over 10 years."

keano44
May 4, 2006, 02:04 PM
The man let you hunt for ten years for free...how can you call him a money hungry jerk? Get used to it, the free ride is over.

silicon wolverine
May 4, 2006, 10:13 PM
Thats because in the context of where we live he is amoney hungry jerk. Most people that do pay hunting around here is around 100-200$ a head for the whole season. This guy wnats 1000$ for the two days we can hunt there!

SW

Wild Bill Bucks
May 5, 2006, 10:03 AM
SW,
Don't have animosities toward the farmer that has let you hunt for 10 years at no expense to you. Before the day of the "Deer hunting Lease", he probably spent 10 to 12 hours a day, 7 days a week trying to make a living out of his property. If you dad has land, he can tell you that it is no easy task.
Most of the land owners here are cattle ranchers, and most have figured out, there is more money in leasing land for hunting, than there ever has been in cattle.
Your farmer freind can probably make more from leasing his land, and not having to do anything to it, than having to work his butt off, and barely break even.
Let's face it, the day of the free ride is pretty much over for most of us, and we would all be better off to recognize, that if we don't get hunting land nailed down on a LONG lease basis with landowners, then our children won't have a good place to hunt when they are ready.
There are farmers and ranchers that want to lease land for hunting so they can control how many people, and who they are, on their land. Those guys probably won't take as much money from you, since they are more interested in controlling their property than the other guys who just want the dollars.
Look around and you will find some land, and when you do, ask for a 10 or 20 year lease agreement with the owner.(and take care of his property like it was your own)

FirstFreedom
May 5, 2006, 10:14 AM
What would YOU do if you were the farmer? I don't see anything at all disloyal about it - it's a matter of putting your land to use, that you worked hard to pay for and acquire. I can't imagine being able to hunt free on any private land, and would be thanking him generously for all the time that you did hunt there for free. But that's different around here, I guess - I can see that your perspective is obviously different, due to the customs up there, so can't really blame you for feeling the way you do, I suppose. What state are talking about anyhow?

Art Eatman
May 5, 2006, 11:02 AM
I've been around the farming/ranching bidness since around 1940. I like to think I know a bit about it.

When we deer-leased at Uvalde, for several years all we paid was the rancher's school taxes.

Note that the ad valorem tax-collector folks don't care if it rains or not, or if the livestock market goes in the toilet. They want "their" tax money Or Else.

I don't blame any landowner for wanting some amount of fee for the right to trespass on his land. :)

Art

Long Path
May 5, 2006, 01:39 PM
THere aint no loyalty anymore. Money hungry jerks.

Too many hunters spoil the hunt.

He's getting $1k/head from out-of-town folk to come hunt his place. If he lets non-paying people continue to hunt for free, he's hurting his paying client's chances, along with their likelihood of coming back the following year. That's money out of his pocket.

For many farmers and ranchers, their real product is the hunting lease that they provide on the land. If you want to continue to hunt for free, perhaps you should offer a deal to work it out in kind over the non-hunting season. I've been blessed to hunt on private land for free many times, but I've also worked on fences, and corrals, scraped and painted the rancher's house, and picked up trash to provide some kind of value to the landowner.

Knock on his door during this off-season and ask what you can do to help, or pay his price, or go elswhere. Calling a small-business owner a jerk because he doesn't want to give his product away for free anymore is unproductive and reflects poorly upon yourself.

Hello123
May 5, 2006, 02:17 PM
It wasn't yours to lose.

OBIWAN
May 5, 2006, 02:47 PM
Good Morning class and welcome to economics 101

It (hunting rights)is worth what someone will pay

So...it is worth $1,000 each

Death from Afar
May 7, 2006, 10:31 PM
Thats really bad mate, but why dont you talk to the farmer and say, tell you what, I wont pay you $1000, but how about me and my buddy do some work around the farm? You might end up spending a day putting in some fences, or cutting some firewood, but I bet you will enjoy that and keep the farmer happy...

silicon wolverine
May 8, 2006, 04:54 PM
I wish we could do that. I grew up on a farm and im not afraid of farm work but the guy is leasing his land to another farmer for cattle and the only control he retained was hunting rights, which he sold to the other guys. This guy is gonna end up one of those rich old farts cause hes leasing it for like 100$/acre/year. Sucks but oh well.

SW

Death from Afar
May 9, 2006, 03:03 AM
Well, Dude, maybe you should try talking to the guy and seeing if he has any friends that you can do a deal with. I am lucky in that I have several prme hunting properties avalible, but you still have to look after the farmers. If you show yourself to be a good type of chap, they often will recomend other properties to hunt on...

silicon wolverine
May 9, 2006, 07:53 AM
I spoke to him about that very thing last night onthe phone and he said he didnt know anyone who would let us hunt and hung up on me. I thought this rather strange and called another fellow i know down there i haven talked to in a while. he said he had heard that the farmer had quit taking his meds all of a sudden and was "different". I have no idea whats going on but im going down there this weekend to meet him face to face. this seems real odd as hes always been a nice guy and never given us any flak until this year.

SW

44-40
May 9, 2006, 09:43 AM
I would be willing to bet that here in Wyoming the resident to out-of-state hunter ratio is at least 1 to 1, selling hunting rights here is VERY big business, I have several close friends who have leased their land to outfitters for plenty of $$, I don't blame them, one friend lost 3 animals this last snow storm, they are not tax deductable as they where born on the place. At least half the people I work with are from S.D., they tell me their folks are getting $100+ a day per gun for pheasant, can't blame them if people show up throwing $ at them. Every morning I have a few antelope in my back pasture, if I had somebody pull up in a new motorhome towing a new jeep and wanted to give me lots of money to shoot one what do you think I would do? Is it the landowners fault ,or the guys who have to much $ and time off wrecking it for the rest of us?????

slow944
May 9, 2006, 10:12 AM
Same thing happened to me and my brother after we'd planted Oats, melons,and peas for the deer. You said your Dad has some land but it's not good for hunting. Can you improve the land so it will be?? It may take you a couple of years but in the long run it'll be worth it. Here in Texas if the land owner finds out your from the "Big City" all they see is Dollar $ign$. So I'm looking to buy my own place and not have to worry about hunting on someone else's land. :D

silicon wolverine
May 9, 2006, 12:42 PM
Ive talked to dad about improving the place for deer hunting but as he still operates it for a living this isnt an option. Plus he has freinds from the eastern part of the state that come ever year and hunt. I cant blame the farmers for wanting to make some extra bucks with thier land, they dont get enough for thier products as it is. As much hassle and time as ive wasted this year trying to find a place to hunt i may just decide to quit hunting deer and spend my money elsewhere.

SW

UniversalFrost
May 9, 2006, 02:53 PM
plant some corn in a small patch somewhere on the land and then build a stand and leave the corn out past harvest to draw them in. SD has anti baiting laws, but this is a work around to the law (buddy of mine is a game warden for yankton county and he looked through the regs for me and as long as I don't put a drip or salt block out there it is completely legal). I bought 10 acres (and will buy another 20 when the guy dies and his wife sells the rest ) of land in Yankton county and even though the land is near a busy highway a major deer trail runs through it to get to a stock pond and an alfalfa field. I planted about 2 acres of corn last year (just rough raked it by hand and planted it the old fashioned way by throwing it out) and then built a stand alone elevated stand. I put a trail cam in it and saw the deer traffic increase like crazy!!! They are even coming back from the stock pond and alfalfa fields on the other guys land and bedding down near the corn. They no longer run through, now they stop eat a little then move on only to come back later and bed down!! Turned a mediorce spot into prime deer land with only 10 acres of land bought cheap and near a busy higway (I shoot away from the highway into a side of a wooded hilly area). The best thing is that the highway causes a lot of noises and you can smell the exhaust so I don't need to be too worried about scent (wind direction) and noise.

Art Eatman
May 9, 2006, 04:48 PM
Back when we were still farming, my grandfather never plowed past about ten feet from a fence. That gave strips of habitat. He'd leave larger trees in a field, with some brush around them. More hidey-holes for critters. We never over-grazed a pasture; we controlled the brush but didn't try to eradicate it.

This was way back before people paid money for hunting, but we had the mix of farming, ranching and wild critters.

Art

Jseime
May 9, 2006, 08:17 PM
Boy oh boy i hate to brag but you guys have it rough. I live in the middle of no where and know anyonw within 20 miles of us. when i first started hunting people told me that i didnt even need to ask just as long as i closed the gates up and didnt shoot any cattle.

Hunting is no problem for me i only know one person who has posted all of his land and thats simply because he is greedy and wanted all the hunting on there for himself.

UniversalFrost
May 9, 2006, 09:07 PM
are the deer really as big as they say they are up there in Canada? Also, what's with the no handgun laws? Can't you carry a back up big bore revolver (like they do in Alaska) in case of bear attacks when you don't have your rifle (i.e. bow hunting in alaska is mandatory to carry or to have a second person with a large bore along).

Just wondering. Used to be stationed in North Dakota near the border and the muleys and white tail up there were the same as the muleys and whitetail down in southern south dakota, only much easier shot up there. 200 - 300 yards flat open range and ticket was filled within minutes of opening day 3 years in a row. :)

Art Eatman
May 10, 2006, 09:26 AM
As a generality, as you go north from the southern U.S., all game species' members are larger. Whitetail in Texas can not grow to the size of those in Maine, for instance. For that matter, it holds for black bear and cougars and coyotes.

The southern desert mule deer are smaller than those in the more northern Rockies. Cottontail rabbits as well.

Why? You'll have to ask a biologist...

Art

kingudaroad
May 10, 2006, 01:59 PM
I guess Texas is the exception to that rule Art, as these little deer in the hill country don't even compare to those in South Texas and Northern Mexico.

Jseime
May 10, 2006, 10:21 PM
are the deer really as big as they say they are up there in Canada? Also, what's with the no handgun laws? Can't you carry a back up big bore revolver (like they do in Alaska) in case of bear attacks when you don't have your rifle (i.e. bow hunting in alaska is mandatory to carry or to have a second person with a large bore along).

The deer really as big as they say up here I live about half an hour from where Milo Hansen shot the world record whitetail and Ive seen mule deer with main beams like fence posts.

As for the revolvers they are considered a restricted weapon (until stephen harper gets his sh...stuff together and abolishes some of out gun laws) and you cant hunt game with a restricted weapon. I live in central saskatchewan so bears and the like arent an issue the biggest predators we have around here are yotes although some claim theyve seen wolves around.

Art Eatman
May 11, 2006, 09:32 AM
Well, king, as I said, "generality". Plus, the Texas hill country has long been way overloaded with too many deer for the habitat. I saw that when I first came home to Texas in 1963, and it hasn't gotten better as the larger ranches have broken up with deaths or developments.

1963 was a drouth year. The hunter kill in Llano, Mason and Brady counties was some 15,000 deer. The winter kill from thirst and starvation was some 17,000, per TP&WD. Even so, removal of 32,000 deer in just one year didn't bother the total population for long enough to notice.

Trophy management bucks in south Texas rarely field dress to 200 pounds. In Maine, a friend of mine killed a whitetail that dressed out around 300. People post pictures here of midwest deer that look to me to be on the young side, but are dressing out around 150 and up.

In the last 30-some years down here in the desert, I've seen two mule deer that would dress out over 200. I've seen many, many pictures of larger mule deer in the northern ranges.

A big male cougar down here would be anything above maybe 120 pounds. From reading, that's 20 to 50 pounds lighter than what are killed up in the Rockies.

You can't look at just CenTex vs. SouTex. You gotta compare Gull Coast critters as well, as you move northward on a nationwide basis.

:), Art

UniversalFrost
May 11, 2006, 01:16 PM
Yeah, thank god that Canada finally got rid of their crappy politicians and got some new blood into the capital. If they ever do repeal that stupid handgun regulations I would have to consider moving back up north. When I was back, I mean my mom's side of the family is from the Quebec area and I still have relatives up that way. Always loved Canada's lack of people (just like Montana and western dakotas openness). Plus the canadians got better beer and whiskey than down south. Combine that with the deer and wildlife population and it's sportsmans paridise, plus I won't miss a Red Green episode as Red says "Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" (when all else fails play dead). :)