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Anthony2
May 2, 2006, 01:37 PM
I find myself more and more adjusting my seating in public. If I go into a movie theater or restaurant, I HAVE TO have a seat at the rear of the establishment. It has to be as close as possible to the back wall, hopefully with a window facing the parking lot. At the very least it MUST have a clear line of sight to the entrance/exit even if there's more than one.

Is this completely insane or do others follow this same idea?

Billy_H
May 2, 2006, 01:42 PM
I picked those habits up from my dad which he in turn picked up from his time as a LEO.

Model520Fan
May 2, 2006, 02:37 PM
It is certainly not completely insane. I try for the same, but I don't obsess (much) if I can't get it. My wife and I don't have a large number of restaurants to choose from, and sometimes a proper seat is not available. I would not consider you crazy, just very careful, if you passed up that restaurant, and then the next, and another, and then went home to eat. However, when my wife and I go out to eat, we generally do, whether safe seating is available or not.

HangFire83
May 2, 2006, 03:29 PM
I do the same thing. I always sit facing the entrance. My girlfriend says I am nuts because I always make her switch me seats. We've been togehter for almost 5 years now you'd think she'd catch on.:confused:

Wildalaska
May 2, 2006, 03:34 PM
I try to lead a normal life and sit wherever without thinking of the tactical ramifications


WildandidontcarryintheshowereitherAlaska

casingpoint
May 2, 2006, 03:35 PM
I've been doing similar for over thirty years. I may be nuts, but I'm still here.

Edward429451
May 2, 2006, 03:39 PM
I lead a normal life and I choose seating strategically, so to speak. I don't obsess about it though. you're not insane.

Anthony2
May 2, 2006, 04:06 PM
On the plus side, of all the restaurants we've attended, there hasn't been one instance where my logic couldn't or didn't work.:cool:

Amazingly enough, all the GF's I've had have been o.k. with it.:)

Glenn E. Meyer
May 2, 2006, 04:07 PM
I'll seat such that I would face the most likely threat. However, if a tactical table wasn't available, I won't skip the restaurant and go home. I like to eat too much and it's just a risk assignment.

Let me ask you - would you take a tactically incorrect table if you were carrying the proper amount of reloads? :D

Anthony2
May 2, 2006, 04:26 PM
"Let me ask you - would you take a tactically incorrect table if you were carrying the proper amount of reloads?"

LOLROTFLMAO!:D

The only time I don't look for a tactically correct table is when I'm in my hometown, here the only thing that outnumbers the guns is the cows.;)

Twycross
May 2, 2006, 07:21 PM
I try to find the tactical seat in restaurants, or similar places. But in an auditorium setting, I generally pick a seat next to the wall. That way, I never have to put up with people crawling over me. :)

fastmover
May 2, 2006, 07:36 PM
I do the same thing when i pick a seat and has a lot to do with me taking martial arts and being in the military....

to each his own but I feel a lot better when am totally aware of my surroundings and environment

Hardtarget
May 2, 2006, 09:49 PM
My wife will even choose her seat to put me in the right position. Feels more comfortable.
Mark.

tegemu
May 3, 2006, 09:46 AM
I too, amd a member of the "Gotta see the door - nobody behind me" club. I got mine from 45 years of military and civilian experience in places that had a high probability of some rascal coming through the door with an AK-47 or explosive device. I jokingly tell my dining companions that I want to be the first to see the attacker so I can get on the deck first, with them on top of me for additional protection.

Avizpls
May 3, 2006, 10:41 AM
My girlfriend does the same thing. If the waitress seats us the "wrong way" she stands up after she leaves so that I can take her seat if it is the one facing the door.

On the same note, she has also gotten accoustomed to me not looking at her while she is talking. I am always looking at people, esp those coming in to the room or building for the first time.

"No, im not checking out that girl, I'm just being aware of our surroundings" :D

Big Calhoun
May 3, 2006, 11:21 AM
It's not unreasonable to pick strategic seating. If it helps you to feel safer, that's all that counts. Personally, I don't think about it too much. For instance, in a move theatre, I'll survey the scene and familiarize myself with the layout of the theater and the exits. The only real considerations as far as seating goes is that I want the best sight line and I want to be able to keep an eye on the hooligans.

Ares45
May 3, 2006, 11:25 AM
"No, im not checking out that girl, I'm just being aware of our surroundings"

Nice one, I'll have to remember that!

Count me in. Back to the wall, facing the door, number and location of all possible exits marked. It just happens. I really don't even think about it anymore. I do spend more time watching mirrors/glass/other patrons when I'm not facing the door though.

invention_45
May 3, 2006, 11:43 AM
You're not crazy. I consider safety when I can pick a restaurant seat.

I try to get a seat near the entrance and on the side of the entrance where the fewest tables are or where the cash register isn't and/or where I can see the parking lot. And, wherever I sit I face the entrance.

If I can't find that type of seat, that won't make me leave unless I just get a creepy feeling about the place, which is rare.

PythonGuy
May 3, 2006, 12:11 PM
It must suck to be that scared of life, never able to relax and enjoy the precious time we have here on earth. Its also funny that on other threads the"when its your turn to go" sentiment is expressed when someone else gets it. I could never be that paranoid, or afraid of life, 24/7. There are times and situations to be concerned, and there are times to lay back and enjoy the ride. I guess you can be buried with your guns if it keeps happy, but if you can't look at the one you love because you are assessing the situation, or enjoy a good meal cause you must look out for threats, its very sad.

Rangefinder
May 3, 2006, 12:29 PM
I guess it's just a subconscious thing for the most part now. I've always done it. But I was always very conscious about it while I was doing side work as a Civil Process Server and Bounty Hunting. Made a few enemies during that time and really didn't want my meal interrupted by getting cracked in the head from behind or something. NOW? More of a habit thing--I relax better when I can see better. Just situational awareness.

fastmover
May 3, 2006, 12:35 PM
It must suck to be that scared of life, never able to relax and enjoy the precious time we have here on earth. Its also funny that on other threads the"when its your turn to go" sentiment is expressed when someone else gets it. I could never be that paranoid, or afraid of life, 24/7. There are times and situations to be concerned, and there are times to lay back and enjoy the ride. I guess you can be buried with your guns if it keeps happy, but if you can't look at the one you love because you are assessing the situation, or enjoy a good meal cause you must look out for threats, its very sad.

I wonder if this is generally the mindset of a victim?

Rangefinder
May 3, 2006, 12:45 PM
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20060318/news_1n18dennys.html

I am far from the paranoid type. With things like these happening, I'd prefer to give myself the opportunity to notice it while I still have a chance to react. That's not paranoia, it's common sense.

Superhornet
May 3, 2006, 12:47 PM
Pythonguy-------always relaxed, always enjoy a meal or a good movie. But still agree with the many positive posters here. Was an old boy scout...BE Prepared..Have carried a weapon for 45 years. Was a case here many years ago, BG walked into a place with M1 carbine...16 people shot, many dead, after begging for their lives...if anyone had been armed....end of story.....I carry, I look, I choose not to be a sheep.....

spacemanspiff
May 3, 2006, 12:59 PM
this is one of the reasons i have stopped every day carry.

the constant posturing, evaluating of threats, searching for adequate cover, sizing up possible bad guys, wondering if that bulge is a cell phone or a gun...

some of you will claim thats all 'second nature' to you. good for you.

PythonGuy
May 3, 2006, 01:13 PM
Its gotta be a full time job spiff, who wants all that hassle. You can worry about human threats and animal threats all day everyday, and get killed in a car accident, or have cancer. If the gun fever reaches the level it takes over one's life, then in MY opinion it’s too much of a price to pay. Why not just lock yourself in a room and never go out, you'll be safer still.

Fastmover, if you think that my mindset is that of a victim, if that makes you feel better and justifies your paranoia, cool. I think if you look at things rationally, most people don't carry or obsess over their safety every minute of everyday, and they live just as long as any of the neurotic's. The difference is they are happy and not scared, nervous, thinking strategy every minute. Those people have created their own hell. Like one carrier on here likes to lecture about carrying and being safe, then hands a kid an uncleared, loaded shotgun which he promptly pulls the trigger on and fires it. THAT scares me, not going out to eat.

Rangefinder
May 3, 2006, 01:34 PM
As many topics in countless threads will show, there is a line crossed when any belief or practice is taken to extreme. On this one, I tend to be among the "casually alert". That being the case, no matter what the environment, I like the odds in my favor without actively focusing on "finding a threat" at all times. The fact is, people inherently do stupid, sometimes crazy things no matter where you are, or what you're doing. Just keeping that in the back of your mind and following a few small precautions isn't being paranoid, nor is it what I call a full time job. IMHO You're almost asking for trouble to find you by ignoring too many of the little precautions, whether it's sitting with a view of the door in a restaurant or keeping an eye over your shoulder at the ATM, or any other scenerio you can think of. How you carry yourself also has a way of projecting and attracting different attention. Just use a little common sense where it's needed and make the most of the day Ignorant < Aware < Paranoid. I like the middle.

fastmover
May 3, 2006, 02:37 PM
Fastmover, if you think that my mindset is that of a victim, if that makes you feel better and justifies your paranoia, cool. I think if you look at things rationally, most people don't carry or obsess over their safety every minute of everyday, and they live just as long as any of the neurotic's. The difference is they are happy and not scared, nervous, thinking strategy every minute. Those people have created their own hell. Like one carrier on here likes to lecture about carrying and being safe, then hands a kid an uncleared, loaded shotgun which he promptly pulls the trigger on and fires it. THAT scares me, not going out to eat.

There is a difference of being paranoid and being prepared. I do not need to justify anything. However, I do need to keep into consideration that I decided to have a family and also understand the world is not a safe place and I am the one to protect my family.

I do think about safety all the time. I think about what I do and eat and etc to ensure I healthy for my family. I think about dangers and environmental situations that surround my kids and etc daily.

I also am not worried about what most people decide to do if they want to carry or not. it doesn't matter to me as long as I know I have done everything in my power to ensure my family is protected.

It is not a hell it is reality and I bet the innocent people around this country that became victims in public areas and such can testify that it is reality.

Now I was not going to comment on your original post but you feel it is pretty sad to have this mindset and everybody is entitled to their own opinion just as I feel having your mindset is sad.

Wildalaska
May 3, 2006, 03:03 PM
also understand the world is not a safe place

Now...... I think that THAT mindset is sad...

I'm on Day 3 of "Oh heck I left the Seecamp in the Glovebox of my truck"..Im still alive...the sun is shining and the world is a beautiful place. Im not in Afghanistan or Gary Indiana. I'm not gonna live my life freaked out about statistical ifcomes and if I buy the farm whether it be by random violence or the Big CV or most likely, by some numbnuts who doesnt know how to drive, o well....

How can I say O well? Simple...I'm not afraid...

Because thats what some mindsets are....fear....fear that yikes hey you may REALLY die sooner or later...trying to stop that is mans way of fighting that fear and ya know what...if you have that fear and spend your life fighting it you are not really living...

WildenjoylifeAlaska

Rangefinder
May 3, 2006, 03:10 PM
+1 Wild

fastmover
May 3, 2006, 03:16 PM
I apologize to all I posted on the wrong forum. I guess being preared has nothing to do with guns.....It won't happen again

Twycross
May 3, 2006, 03:50 PM
:confused:

This is the Tactics and Training forum. Guns need not necessarily be an integral part of the discussion here, AFAIK.

fastmover
May 3, 2006, 04:02 PM
You are absolutely right and I guess being prepared has nothing to do with tactics either.............

spacemanspiff
May 3, 2006, 04:09 PM
while you're at it, don't forget to wear dark sunglasses to hide who you are scoping out. and the Mallninja's Secret store is running a sale on the police scanner that runs on your bluetooth phone.

riverrat66
May 3, 2006, 05:08 PM
I always insist upon sitting in the last row of a theater or anywhere so no one can sit behind me and it has nothing to do tactics either. It's a trait of a lot of Vietnam veterans. Now before I start WW 3 and everyone goes off the deep end, I said a lot of vets not all vets. We don't like anyone sitting behind us, it's just one of those things. If I go into a restaurant I MUST sit off to the side where no one can sit behind me. I will not sit in the middle of the place even if it means waiting for another table. If I go to a sporting event or some sort of public gathering I choose a seat that has some sort of a "wall" behind it and it MUST be an isle seat otherwise I won't go. I don't need to "see" the exits but I always know where they are.

My family doesn't think this behavior is "unusual" because I've been doing it for the last 40 years.

Maybe I am paranoid but guess what? I really don't care what anyone thinks! I do what I gotta do to survive both mentally and physically.

prime8
May 3, 2006, 07:11 PM
Say the BG comes in w/o warning, and starts shooting? Hes probably going to see the person furthest from him in plain sight. That means you! I practice this technique when in bars,cuz I bounced for the last 15 years.. Too many drunks remember me.. The back against the wall is good, but Id rather be around the corner, thank you..:D

Mannlicher
May 3, 2006, 07:28 PM
and I thought I was the only person doing that.

GunGator
May 3, 2006, 07:45 PM
I'm on Day 3 of "Oh heck I left the Seecamp in the Glovebox of my truck"..Im still alive...the sun is shining and the world is a beautiful place. Im not in Afghanistan or Gary Indiana. I'm not gonna live my life freaked out about statistical ifcomes and if I buy the farm whether it be by random violence or the Big CV or most likely, by some numbnuts who doesnt know how to drive, o well....

well said- Wa

this is one of the reasons i have stopped every day carry.

the constant posturing, evaluating of threats, searching for adequate cover, sizing up possible bad guys, wondering if that bulge is a cell phone or a gun...
Right there with you...1. it is a big responsibility and 2, I realized I was much more likely to die from the steak on my plate than a BG with an uzi LOL
GG

RoSAR1
May 3, 2006, 07:50 PM
Since when does a movie theater have windows? Secondly, I would rather have a nice table at a restaurant than worry about being able to make a quick exit. You might as well not ever leave the house if you're going to ruin a dinner with your wife worrying about someone breaking into your car every 30 seconds.

cuate
May 3, 2006, 08:03 PM
Just an old habit, not paranoia. My stomping grounds are Comanche, Proctor, and Stephenville, Texas and the only way I can imaging any hassle would be from either misbehaving with someone elses wife or overindulging in ogling at same's ample busom or derrier.

As I do not do either, I often leave my pistola in the pickup, out of sight. Were it Dallas or Houston, or other big cities where denizens are known to roam and act ugly, its still facing the entrance, but armed ala Jeff Cooper, cocked and locked.

But its not in the restaurant, its the parking lots at malls and different places one wants to watch with a jaunticed eye, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6 !

Glenn E. Meyer
May 3, 2006, 08:42 PM
Waiting for the kids to finish a test.

One question is do you pick your firearm depending on the restaurant?

If you go to the dread Burger Barn of scenario fame - do you take extra mags and a BUG. I recommend the BUG be in an ankle holster as it is easy to get to when seated.

If you are going to a 3 or great star Michelin restaurant - then will a simple and discreet Seecamp in your sport jacket pocket suffice.

While you might be in a gun fight between supporters of banning the production of fois gras and various gourmets - a 32 ACP probably will stop most psycho foodies.

I'm bored.

Doggieman
May 3, 2006, 10:17 PM
as for me, I'm fairly scrawny so I've always had to be "alert" when even just walking down the street. As I age I find myself getting jitterier and jitterier around people, which can't be a good thing. If somebody is walking behind me on the sidewalk I'll stop and pretend to look in a window or something to let 'em pass.

But as for not liking to sit with your back to a door or a window, that's pretty normal, in fact that's so normal that even Feng Shue says that the "chi energy" is bad when you sit like that. Hell sitting like that was making people nervous 5000 years ago!

razorburn
May 3, 2006, 10:42 PM
I agree with wild and the others. I'm 21 years old, a college student/personal trainer. I have no family out here, no life to protect but my own. And for myself, those things in my life I carry to protect are the same things I'll lose if I start being condition orange or whatever all the time. I carry so tomorrow, I can walk on and see the birds fly. Or so I can enjoy a date with a cute girl. A night out with my best friends. If I must spend all these times watching my back, in high alert, these moments are lost anyways, and my life becomes just little more than strenous labor. And for me, that kind of a life is no longer worth protecting anyways.

invention_45
May 4, 2006, 07:58 AM
It must suck to be that scared of life, never able to relax and enjoy the precious time we have here on earth. Its also funny that on other threads the"when its your turn to go" sentiment is expressed when someone else gets it. I could never be that paranoid, or afraid of life, 24/7. There are times and situations to be concerned, and there are times to lay back and enjoy the ride. I guess you can be buried with your guns if it keeps happy, but if you can't look at the one you love because you are assessing the situation, or enjoy a good meal cause you must look out for threats, its very sad.

Python - Get back to me after you've had an irrational ******* harassing and stalking you for 3 years.

Beckerich
May 4, 2006, 08:18 AM
isnt that a sort of compulsion that people from war have? You have to always know the way out incase terrorists burst in with uzi's shooting blindly? Take a xanax...

Trip20
May 4, 2006, 09:08 AM
1) We have those who think daily carry is a joke, and poke fun of people who have "the fear." By the way, fear is not when you pay attention, try to be mildly prepared, or keep a casual awareness, fear is when you can't go to the restaurant in the first place.

2) Then we have a very small minority who can't look down at their plate long enough to cut a piece of steak because they might miss the tactical leapfrog maneuver performed by Team Bad Guy.

Can't there be a middle ground?

I go out every day w/out a gun. Hell I don't even carry OC spray. I carry a pocket knife, that's about it. I remain casually aware of my surroundings most of the time - not all - I'm pretty easily distracted. It's a passive response; it's not something that takes thought or scrupulous concentration.

Being aware of what's going on around you is normal. Placing yourself in a position that makes it easiest for you to observe is also normal, and many - probably all - of you do this with out even thinking about it.

I try to sit in a seat that has the best view of the restaurant, if possible. I'm a people watcher and a busy body. I don't do this to be a mall ninja or because it makes me "tactical" - sorry to disappoint you. I hate the word tactical. I just realized this.

Anyway, if WI someday passes a carry law, I won't change my seating arrangement.

RoSAR1
May 4, 2006, 09:14 AM
In Ohio you can't carry in a restaurant unless you take your wife to Denny's. Depending on what I was wearing I would carry anyway but still, just something to think about.

PythonGuy
May 4, 2006, 09:40 AM
Invention-45,

Of course there are special situations where threats have been made and you'd be more alert. Even the average person at an ATM or other area of potential risk should be alert. I am talking about the average guy being on a 24/7 mindset of protection to the extent they take a gun into the bathroom, or decide where to sit based on a possible commando raid, that's where I draw the line. Others like Trip20 have made good if not obvious points about the level of awareness in everyday life. I do post about the absurdity of paranoia on here with tongue in cheek; I think its bad publicity for normal, responsible gun owners. But I mean seriously, look at some of the threads on the T&T section, its a little crazy really. One thread has a person clearing their house because they left a door they thought locked, unlocked. That's a great way to shoot a neighbor or family member. If you have to walk around your house with a gun to clear it at every little noise, how long till you end up in the nuthouse? And worse still, this same person gives advice on personal safety like they actually know what they are talking about! Guns are for fun too, I think that gets lost all too often on here. More then 99% of this country do not carry guns; somehow they make it through life just fine. Window seat anyone?? Or how about eating outside in the fresh air, how scary!! :D

invention_45
May 4, 2006, 10:56 AM
Python-

Ok, that's better. I do believe you should take into consideration that there could be some people here who have had or are having threatening experiences but would rather not say what they are. So that group looks paranoid. Included would be former soldiers or anyone whose job put them under threat, even if it was long ago. Some things, once learned, become very habitual, like putting on your seat belt.

Another thing is that there's really no standard regarding how people think. Some value safety far more than freedom, as is obvious from the Patriot Act and Prohibition II. Some value freedom (from worry, I suppose) over safety and don't have guns at all. And everything between, and that's only on that one issue.

So it doesn't shock me to see that somebody who has never been under any sort of threat can create a habit of being choosey about restaurant seating and things like that. Remember Luby's?

Nothing I've seen here bothers me, so long as the way the individual is managing his firearm and safety includes obeying the various laws that apply.

Wildalaska
May 4, 2006, 02:01 PM
I'm carrying my Hi Power today!

And wearing a shirt with a collar! Not even wrinkled!

I wonder if one has anyhting to do with the other :)

WildilieditswrinkledAlaska

Eghad
May 4, 2006, 02:17 PM
sit where I can see the incoming traffic to that section but I usually dont pick the tables.

Doggieman
May 4, 2006, 02:22 PM
I don't see why everyone's is judging everyone else's personal behavior here. If some guy wants to remain in orange his whole life then obviously it's doing something for him. Maybe he enjoys it, or it makes him sleep better at night, or maybe he has to because he's in a dangerous situation. I know people who thrive on drama and nervous energy, they wouldn't want to live life any other way. And then the other people who like to remain in white all the time well maybe they're willing to put up with the risks associated with that. There's no way to be able to understand somebody else's situation and there's no way to accurately judge it either in any meaningful manner.

tegemu
May 4, 2006, 03:51 PM
Beckerich, I wish "compulsions from war," were as easy to cure as you suggest, by taking a Xanax and getting over it. You have missed your calling my friend, with that level of expertise you can quickly become a multi millionaire curing all of the "Compulsions from war," that so many veterans are suffering so terribly from.

Al Norris
May 4, 2006, 04:14 PM
Three pages of replies that basicly boil down to 1) It's a habit; 2) You're really paranoid - How do you enjoy Life? 3) I'm not that paranoid - I enjoy life just fine, thankyou; 4) Some combination of 1 & 3 and 5) Being in condition white, occasionally, is not a bad thing.

Me? I fall into category #4. Picked up the habit back in Vietnam. Like most habits, it's an unconscious thing. I just do it. I wasn't even aware I did this until it was pointed out to me by an old friend.

It's on par with being awakened suddenly, ready to fight. Another unconscious habit from that time and place... Even after 38 years. Which is why my night-gun is 1 step away from my bed. Literally.

So yes, it is a form of paranoia, albeit a very mild form. I am aware of it and I don't let it control me. I prefer to sit where I can view the comings and goings of people. But I don't obsess about it, should there not be a table or booth to my unconscious liking.

Recognizing ones own makeup, allows one to characterize ones own behaviors; to correct bad habits or not allowing good/neutral habits from becoming obsessive traits. It allows one to live their life without having to apologize, feel inferior or to feel guilt for how one chooses to live.

Generally speaking, those who have to criticize others for the way they conduct themselves when such conduct does not in any way interfere with your own lifestyle, need to look at yourselves and figure out why you have this compulsion to so judge others.

Just my nickle, for what it's worth.

Wildalaska
May 4, 2006, 04:33 PM
Generally speaking, those who have to criticize others for the way they conduct themselves when such conduct does not in any way interfere with your own lifestyle, need to look at yourselves and figure out why you have this compulsion to so judge others.

Isnt that a contradiction in terms :)

WildtakeintoaccounttheimagethatgunownersshouldpresentAlaska

PS..if somefolks take all the tables with their backs to the wall it interferes with my lifestyle....I like those tables to watch the girls:p

Al Norris
May 4, 2006, 06:30 PM
Isnt that a contradiction in terms
Life itself is a contradiction in terms. We all know we are going to die. How then can we protect ourselves?
PS..if somefolks take all the tables with their backs to the wall it interferes with my lifestyle....I like those tables to watch the girls.
Um, because I got to the table first?

meanoldman
May 4, 2006, 09:28 PM
I like to sit with my back to the wall and my wife between me and danger. I'd use her as a shield if she wasn't so thin.

Wildalaska
May 5, 2006, 12:02 PM
Um, because I got to the table first?

So you wanna watch too :)

WildiknewitAlaska

riverrat66
May 5, 2006, 04:11 PM
Antipitas,
I agree with you but I said that way back in post #34. That's just the way some of us Nam' vets are. I've been doing it for 40 years!

But as usual those who have never BTDT have to criticize because they just don't understand.

Someone said :
"also understand the world is not a safe place"

and another poster replied :
"Now...... I think that THAT mindset is sad..."

Maybe then that person should take a stroll thru the streets of East LA or the mean streets of Detroit or Chicago after dark and then tell us what a wonderful safe world it is. Yeah right! Some people just choose to go through life with their head up their azz. Sorry but it's the truth.

Wildalaska
May 5, 2006, 05:05 PM
East LA or the mean streets of Detroit or Chicago after dark and then tell us what a wonderful safe world it is.

East LA or the mean streets is not the world, and my head is far enough out of of my azz thank you that I can see that

WildlovinlifetodayAlaska

riverrat66
May 5, 2006, 07:57 PM
Wild, was that you that said that? Maybe you should visit the lower 48 and get in touch with reality and see how the real world lives.
You're skirting the issue, but if you insist why not why not try visiting Beirut or Baghdad or Kabul or even better visit Mogadishu and see how safe you feel then. Yep, I'll bet they'll roll out the red carpet for you especially when they find out you're an American. Be sure to get some video of that.;) You know kinda like the "kind and gentler nation" crap that George W. was selling a few years ago. (I think it was George W.) :rolleyes: Anyway you get my point, or do you? Yes sir, the world is such a safe place that's why the cops in England don't carry firearms anymore and you've seen what a great success that is! :barf:

BTW, if you feel so safe why do you even carry a handgun and please explain why do you feel the need for tactical training? http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205696 :confused:

Wildalaska
May 5, 2006, 08:08 PM
Maybe you should visit the lower 48 and get in touch with reality and see how the real world lives.

yeah they are just rioting in the sreets in the entire US :cool:

WildiwonderwhosreallyoutoftouchAlaska

Rangefinder
May 5, 2006, 08:14 PM
Sorry to jump in ahead of you on this one Wild, but I gotta. (well, guess I didn't get in ahead of ya--Oh well.)

I think the general flavor of the topic started with the idea of how we act WHERE WE ARE in our normal, everyday environment. So where does ANYONE come off with the idea of comparing and judging "my neighborhood vs. yours--I'm right and you're a fruitcake" attitude?

Carrying a handgun and feeling the need for tactical training IS NOT a statement that we should all eat "weapons" for breakfast and breathe "tactics" all day. Having a weapon and knowing well how to use it doesn't mean I should be Jonny-on-the-spot--mr, 24/7 gung-ho and ready to go. I carry a Leatherman all day too, but you won't catch me running around foaming at the mouth to be mr. fix-it. Just my 2-cents.

Personally, I might look at someone who can be so relaxed and comfortable in their environment and think to myself "hmm... must be a nice place--ought to go there some day."

And what in the world does visiting Beirut or Baghdad or Kabul have to do with ANY of it?

meanoldman
May 5, 2006, 09:37 PM
Ken,

When you are down in the lower 48 swing by and visit my hood. The armadillo and deer are a challenge and by god no seecamp .32 is enough in this neighborhood. Bring one of those lever action cannons and lets rock and roll. Condition red is a way of life and we take no prisoners. The boar down here are kosher but I'm still wondering about armadillos-not to mention those possums-- giant ugly rats.

over and out

David

riverrat66
May 5, 2006, 10:39 PM
Rangerfinder,

Since you were in such as hurry to "jump ahead" on this one you probably didn't bother to read the entire thread and if you had you would know what "visiting Beirut or Baghdad or Kabul " has to do with it! So I suggest you go back a few posts and re-read them and maybe you can figure it out all by YOURSELF! (see I can use big letters too!) :D
So where does ANYONE come off with the idea of comparing and judging "my neighborhood vs. yours--I'm right and you're a fruitcake" attitude?
"Fruitcake attitude? "my neighborhood vs. yours"? What thread did you read that in or did you make that up all by YOURSELF?
Carrying a handgun and feeling the need for tactical training IS NOT a statement that we should all eat "weapons" for breakfast and breathe "tactics" all day. Having a weapon and knowing well how to use it doesn't mean I should be Jonny-on-the-spot--mr, 24/7 gung-ho and ready to go.
:confused: Are you making this sh*t up as you go along?

Mr Wild stated that it was "sad" when someone stated that "the world was a dangerous place" and even said he frequently did not carry his firearm, I guess because he felt "so safe", sooo I was wondering why he felt the need for any tactical training especially when he brags about leaving the "Seecamp" in the glove box of his truck. If he thinks the world is such a safe place what the hell does he need to carry a handgun for anyway?

I'm not "Johnny-on-the-spot--mr, 24/7 gung-ho and ready to go" but what I don't understand is, when do you guys decide it's the right time to carry and the wrong time to carry? I mean do the BG's only work certain hours? When I made the decision to carry concealed more then 30 years ago, I decided I would carry fulltime, not only when I felt like it or when I thought I might get mugged or attacked. I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.

You seem to be making more of a big deal of this then I am. I only said what some of us Vietnam vets have a tendency of doing as far as public seating goes and then I commented on the ridiculous statement that ole' Wild made about how "safe" the world was.

If everyone is so "relaxed and comfortable in their environment" and feels so un-threatened why do they feel the need to carry a handgun in the first place?

So there's my 2 cents, just like you. Now do you feel better for butting your nose in where it didn't belong? I know, you just had to "jump ahead" but I don't know why, you didn't say anything that made any sense. But if it makes you feel important then I guess that's all that matters and besides it gets your post count up. ;)

Rangefinder
May 5, 2006, 11:25 PM
Man..... After all that--the only thing I can really say is take a breather. You see the world however you want to see it, and for your own reasons. That goes for the rest of us, too. Some of the rest of us have seen our share of ugliness in the world, and in no uncertain terms I myself should have bought the farm more than a couple times. But seriously, I don't see much good coming from a dark, grim view of the world in general as a result of being caught in it a few times. It doesn't make it any less important, but it doesn't rule how I choose to see the rest of the world from one day to the next. If it did, then it would have killed me after all, and I just haven't had the good sense to lay down yet.

I licensed to carry so that I could--not because I couldn't NOT carry. To each their own I guess.

riverrat66
May 5, 2006, 11:31 PM
We all have our own reasons for doing things and it does not make one right and one wrong.

Peace. Stay safe.

Regards.

Riverrat66

Rangefinder
May 5, 2006, 11:32 PM
I'll drink to that. Cheers.

DWARREN123
May 6, 2006, 05:38 AM
Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you.
You have to do what makes you comfortable.

stevelyn
May 6, 2006, 07:43 AM
I try to follow Wild Bill's rule when I'm out. It's something that been ingrained in me for several years and I really don't conscieously notice it.

Fremmer
May 6, 2006, 07:59 AM
You know kinda like the "kind and gentler nation" crap that George W. was selling a few years ago. (I think it was George W.)

You're bashing the wrong Bush. :D

Metellus
May 6, 2006, 09:33 AM
ok let's say you go to the movies with your SO.. and there's 2 adjacent seats avaiable in the middle row and 1 seat available in the very back row with good lines of sight and next to the emergency exit. Do you:

A) Take the middle row seats with your SO and enjoy the movie
B) Take the seat in the back of the movie theatre and tell your SO to go home and naturally lock the doors and ready the shotgun because the theatre is too dangerous for her.
C) Would never go to the movie theatres in the first place that's why you got the 50" plasma TV and surround sound built in your bunker in the first place.

MEDDAC19
May 6, 2006, 10:16 AM
meanoldman

Aren't those armadillos you have down there, just up-armored possums?:D

meanoldman
May 6, 2006, 03:38 PM
Meddac19,

Yeah just a rat in a shell. Dumb and blind to boot. They also carry Hanson's disease (leprosy). Been trying to trap one that is digging up my yard but he is too dumb to go into the have a heart. Trapped just about everything else from pets to skunks to even a fox. Can't discharge a firearm in Austin but the pellet gun is charged and ready.

David

Harry Paget Flashman
May 6, 2006, 04:38 PM
Carried to its extreme some folks only feel "safe" with their thumb on the deadman switch. :) I'm not one of them. Everyones idea of reasonable caution (and humor) varies.

gdeal
May 6, 2006, 05:09 PM
They now have medication for that you know.

riverrat66
May 6, 2006, 06:58 PM
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder? Do you understand what OCD really is:

Try reading this:
"Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, OCD, is an anxiety disorder and is characterized by recurrent, unwanted thoughts (obsessions) and/or repetitive behaviors (compulsions). Repetitive behaviors such as handwashing, counting, checking, or cleaning are often performed with the hope of preventing obsessive thoughts or making them go away. Performing these so-called "rituals," however, provides only temporary relief, and not performing them markedly increases anxiety. Obsessive-compulsive disorder, or OCD, involves anxious thoughts or rituals you feel you can't control. If you have OCD, you may be plagued by persistent, unwelcome thoughts or images, or by the urgent need to engage in certain rituals.

You may be obsessed with germs or dirt, so you wash your hands over and over. You may be filled with doubt and feel the need to check things repeatedly. You may have frequent thoughts of violence, and fear that you will harm people close to you. You may spend long periods touching things or counting; you may be pre-occupied by order or symmetry; you may have persistent thoughts of performing sexual acts that are repugnant to you; or you may be troubled by thoughts that are against your religious beliefs.

The disturbing thoughts or images are called obsessions, and the rituals that are performed to try to prevent or get rid of them are called compulsions. There is no pleasure in carrying out the rituals you are drawn to, only temporary relief from the anxiety that grows when you don't perform them.

A lot of healthy people can identify with some of the symptoms of OCD, such as checking the stove several times before leaving the house. But for people with OCD, such activities consume at least an hour a day, are very distressing, and interfere with daily life.

Most adults with this condition recognize that what they're doing is senseless, but they can't stop it. Some people, though, particularly children with OCD, may not realize that their behavior is out of the ordinary."

So what you're saying is, just because of the way someone chooses their seat in public they have OCD? Now I've heard everything! :rolleyes:

You're bashing the wrong Bush.:D
What difference does it make? ;)

Words to live by:
those who have to criticize others for the way they conduct themselves when such conduct does not in any way interfere with your own lifestyle, need to look at yourselves and figure out why you have this compulsion to so judge others.

It's time to move on.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 7, 2006, 10:07 AM
If one suffered from the anxiety symptoms related to OCD when they did not get correct tactical seating - that might be OCD.

I could theorize that someone who was forced to take a tactical seat and had to perform scans of the room in a repetitive manner and if thwarted in that - had the OCD anxiety symptoms could have a problem.

However, I have a friend who is expert on the anxiety disorders and I'm going to ask if they ever saw an OCD manifest in extreme tactical behavior as compared to the usual obsessions and compulsions.

That's an interesting question. I wonder if it would manifest in people with much training under a stress-diathesis model. :confused: Could you see in police or military?

Glenn E. Meyer
May 8, 2006, 04:43 PM
So I investigate the issue with a colleague expert in the anxiety disorders.

We are describing some folks who have a symptom of hypervigilance that is disruptive of their lives. To live in a constant state of scanning and feeling anxiety in public of the threat of constant attack is not healthy.

If one could not be seated in a restaurant or movie theatre because a tactical suitable table or set of seats is not available is disruptive. If one were forced to sit in such and then suffered from heightened anxiety such that your flight or fight mechanisms led to arousal, emotional distress or intrusive cognitive thoughts about threat would be troublesome.

However, such symptomology is not really found under the OCD rubric. It is most common in two disorders:

GAD - general anxiety disorder.
PTSD - post traumatic stress disorder. PTSD has a precipitating incident to lead to the hypervigilance.

That's where you see extreme hypervigilance that describes someone always scanning for exits, extremely careful of seating, evaluating everyone for threats, etc.

Some of this does sound like our normal gun world alertness and awareness. However, for the disorders, you get the extreme anxiety symptoms and disruption of your normal daily business.

If a person's life is disrupted significantly or they suffer severe feelings of distress, then their color codes are a touch out of control, IMHO.

An example:

1. I refused to take my family to an ice cream store at closing time. It was located in a strip mall and sort of isolated. That's a good time for a robbery. I regard that as careful.

2. I go to Olive Garden and it is crowded. The only table isn't tactical. I take it anyway and don't really feel anxious. I don't leave the restaurant. Do I know cognitively that it isn't the best gunworld decision. Probably - do I think that the amount of risk is manageable - yes, I do. Do I have an anxiety event over it - no, I don't.

Anthony2
May 8, 2006, 11:18 PM
I still smile everytime I watch one of my well intentioned, thought provoking, threads take off running.:rolleyes: I'm glad there is such a wide diversity of individuals with which to express and exchange ideas.:)

"The day you stop thinking and learning is the day you start dying."-Einstein

IMO, the chances of someone with OCD having to worry about "tactical seating" is slim to none. I've known many people with just that condition and t.s. was the last thing on their minds.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 9, 2006, 09:54 AM
Anthony2 - this is an interesting thread. The OCD path was wrong speculation - you do see the tactical seating syndrome in the GAD and PTSD populations. However, they are not necessarily gun folks in orientation, they just worry about threats and exits.

My colleague was running a group for PTSD suffers with this problem and told me that they had to change meeting rooms as the scheduled one didn't have enough exits.

riverrat66
May 9, 2006, 05:38 PM
Glenn,
Let me ask you a question. Did you ever hear of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder BEFORE the Vietnam War? That's why I said a LOT of Vietnam veterans have this problem about "seating in public". It's a "PTSD" issue whether that person wants to admit it or not!

Al Norris
May 10, 2006, 12:30 AM
I'm not Glenn, but yes, we've all heard of it. It was called by other names before the clinicians categorized the psychological phenomenon. Shell Shock and Combat Fatigue to name just two.

Glenn E. Meyer
May 10, 2006, 09:45 AM
PTSD became official in 1980 when added to the DSM. Clearly, it was seen and reported back to the Roman armies and before. The Civil War, WWI and WWII have many cases written up and reported.

To the point in question - the initial post was

I find myself more and more adjusting my seating in public. If I go into a movie theater or restaurant, I HAVE TO have a seat at the rear of the establishment. It has to be as close as possible to the back wall, hopefully with a window facing the parking lot. At the very least it MUST have a clear line of sight to the entrance/exit even if there's more than one.

Is this completely insane or do others follow this same idea?

1. If one had to do this or suffer marked anxiety symptoms - that's a problem and quite different from a cognitive acknowledgement of tactical problems.

2. Insane - that's the wrong term (sigh - don't you hate professors?), Insanity, nowadays, is a legal decision based on culpability in criminal proceedings and not a description of one's behavior in a noncriminal setting.

If not getting tactical seating generates severe anxiety, it is problematic.

Skyguy
May 10, 2006, 10:16 AM
If not getting tactical seating generates severe anxiety, it is problematic.

VERY problematic!
One should seek professional help.
.

riverrat66
May 10, 2006, 12:00 PM
Antipitas,

I know it was called Shell Shock and Combat Fatigue before it was officially called PTSD. But the huge number of veterans suffering from it after Vietnam was the reason the clinicians categorized the psychological disorder as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder to begin with.

Nowdays anyone who has witnessed any type of stressful event from a robbery or a car accident or a shooting or a rape victim can suffer from PTSD.

I've talked with many WWII vets at the VAMC who suffer from PTSD (shell shock in WWII terms) and never knew it, well they knew it, they just never admitted it and just never spoke about their experiences until they were in a group together.

They received the same advice upon returning home as I did, "the war is over, put all that stuff behind you and forget about it". As it turns out, not a very healthy thing to do.

So, if I suffer from the dreaded PTSD and prefer to sit in the last row of the theater or need to have a certain seat in a restaurant, does that make me insane as some would suggest? Because if it does, I'm crazier then a sh*thouse rat! :D

PythonGuy
May 10, 2006, 12:45 PM
For anyone that's been in combat, how could life ever be the same again? I used to work with a guy who would actually duck or crouch low if there was a loud unexpected backfire; he was in a jeep in Nam that rode over a landmine. That type of stress, if it can be lessened by sitting near a wall or in view of the doors, is totally understandable. A combat vet can never be paid back enough for what they did.........

Al Norris
May 10, 2006, 01:06 PM
riverrat, I'm not disagreeing with you. Nor am I trying to be contentious. I answered the way I did mostly because a large number of people simply think that PTSD is a strictly Vietnam related issue. They aren't even aware that shell shock, etc. are the same thing.

In fact, if you look at many news stories, you will find that combat vets suffer from PTSD but civilians suffer from a related, but somehow different, Delayed Stress Syndrome, sometimes called PTSS. FAUGH!

PTSD is PTSD regardless of whom it inflicts. I don't care much if the clinicians differentiate between a "disorder" and a "syndrome." Reality check! It is the same.

Rainbow Six
May 10, 2006, 01:07 PM
I don't like having my back to a crowd. Comes from nearly 13 years of being in LE and watching my six on calls and in tight situations, and living where I work. I like seats near the back of rooms with my back to a wall. However, anxiety never sets in if I can't get such a seat. I simply "prefer" to have such seating.

On the daily carry issue, I avoid being oblivious to my surroundings, but I'm not in what I'd really call a "heightened" sense of awareness (ie; incessant scanning, anxiety setting in...) unless general awareness has brought to light something "out of the ordinary". Same at work. Same riding on my motorcycle. I avoid being oblivious to my surroundings but I'm not tuned up to hypervigilance unless something dictates going into that state.

I'd be worried if I experienced anxiety on a regular basis due to my level of vigilance. That's simply not the case though. It does not hinder me from enjoying life when I can't get "tactical table arrangements", which I find hilarious. :D

Glenn E. Meyer
May 10, 2006, 01:54 PM
Diagnosis is more than worrying about a table. This is a summary of the current one:

DSM-IV- the core features of PTSD comprise a stressor criterion that defines the etiologic event and a configuration of symptoms, drawn from 3 groups, that define the characteristic PTSD syndrome (3). The 3 symptom groups that constitute the PTSD syndrome are as follows: reexperiencing the trauma in nightmares, intrusive memories, or ?flashbacks? (Criterion B); numbing of affect and avoidance of thoughts, acts, and situations that symbolize the trauma (Criterion C); and symptoms of excessive arousal (Criterion D). The diagnosis requires the persistence of symptoms for at least 1 month (Criterion E) and clinically significant distress or impairment (Criterion F).

riverrat66
May 10, 2006, 02:08 PM
I'm going out for dinner on Friday nite and I'm gonna enjoy myself regardless of where I sit. I won't be oblivious to my surroundings but I won't be "nervous & jerky" either. It happens to be a upper-class restaurant :barf: in a bit of shady neighborhood and the weather is very hot so my attire may not allow me to carry concealed. (that's another thread)

Glenn E. Meyer
May 10, 2006, 02:33 PM
Is it a nudist restaurant? Otherwise, one could carry a reasonable firearm in one's pocket to avoid the tactical heebie-jeebies?

Even in the nudist restaurant, one could carry a NAA mini in ways that would disrupt one's appetite if drawn. It's been done. Sometimes surgery was necessary. :eek:

dfaugh
May 10, 2006, 03:08 PM
I used to be really careful about where I sat in restaurants and bars---a holdover form my youth when I frequented some "not so nice" establishments. I'm a little less picky now, but still try to sit where I can see the door, and the majority of the people around me. My friends are used to it, when we go out to dinner, and just let me pick my seat first.

Funny story: I met a colleague on a project in a restaurant a few years ago...We were shown to a table, and both of us immediately went for the seat with our backs to the wall. We both laughed about it for a long time after.

P.S. I have been diagnosed w/ PTSD and GAD. I don't like crowds, and won't go places where there's a lot of people packed in a confined space. An unexpected loud noise will send me into overdrive. My kids are afraid to wake me, and if they have to, they'll stand as far away as possible, and touch my hand, then jump back. I have a tendency to come up violently. Sad way to be.

riverrat66
May 10, 2006, 03:11 PM
Is it a nudist restaurant?
No it's not and I was going to mention that I have a very nice pocket pistol in that of my Beretta Bobcat but I didn't want to sway off topic again.
one could carry a NAA mini in ways that would disrupt one's appetite if drawn. It's been done. Sometimes surgery was necessary.
Jeez Glenn, I'm going for dinner not to prison. ;)

Skyguy
May 10, 2006, 03:56 PM
I have been diagnosed w/ PTSD and GAD. I don't like crowds, and won't go places where there's a lot of people packed in a confined space. An unexpected loud noise will send me into overdrive. My kids are afraid to wake me, and if they have to, they'll stand as far away as possible, and touch my hand, then jump back. I have a tendency to come up violently. Sad way to be.

Sad way to be, indeed.
You're freaked out by the past 'and' the future.

I know that there is no cure for mental illness, but is there any treatment for such a dilemma?
.

riverrat66
May 10, 2006, 04:03 PM
I know that there is no cure for mental illness, but is there any treatment for such a dilemma?
Unbelievable! PTSD is NOT a mental illness. That's like calling a child with Downs Syndrome a retard.

mutlee
May 10, 2006, 05:10 PM
Unbelievable! PTSD is NOT a mental illness.

Sure it is.
PTSD is a psychological-emotional disorder....specifically an anxiety disorder. Thus, it's a mental illness.

The mental illness/anxiety disorder of PTSD originates from conflict or trauma.

Keep in mind that "mental illness" is a broad, encompassing phrase.
.

Anthony2
May 10, 2006, 07:51 PM
While my viewpoint may seem extreme to some if not all, it is mine and mine alone. I will sum up my outlook on this topic with the following quote from a state police officer:
"Trust family, all others are suspect." This is perhaps the best wording I've heard yet to summarize my point of view.

To each and everyone involved in this thread, I say thank you. While some have viewpoints I don't agree with, I still respect said individuals and viewpoints. After all that's what makes America great!:) When a guy can take an idle thought and develop it into a purposeful and opinionated discussion it is a good day.:cool:

Rainbow Six
May 10, 2006, 08:52 PM
While my viewpoint may seem extreme to some if not all, it is mine and mine alone. I will sum up my outlook on this topic with the following quote from a state police officer:
"Trust family, all others are suspect."

I thought the LE creed was, "In God we trust... All others get ran through NCIC. " ;)

Glenn E. Meyer
May 10, 2006, 08:59 PM
PTSD is in the DSM-IV and thus legitimately classified as a disorder.

The anxiety disorders are very treatable with at least two different therapies with Cognitive Behaviorial Therapy being one of the best according to the research.

Someone suffering from such might benefit from a competent CBT therapist.

Superhornet
May 11, 2006, 07:22 AM
How many States have passed Conceal Carry laws for its citizens ?? Have they done this out of ""paranoia"" or is there an underlying reason and the situation where a weapon is needed to defend ones self has become more prevalent?? I choose to carry. For those of you that don't carry, good for you, for a man must always know his limitations......

OldFart
May 11, 2006, 11:18 AM
Only when I'm playing poker...