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nefshooter
April 25, 2006, 04:51 PM
What do you guys think of this one good call or bad call by the guard?http://www.break.com/index/robberyontape.html

NBT
April 25, 2006, 05:13 PM
Tough call with the other employee AND the mother AND baby in the line of fire. I can't even tell if the BG was even hit, looks like he managed to get out the door.

The baby is gonna have some ringing ears, this guy should have considered that as well before shooting. I don't see enough on the tape to rule that there was immediate danger by the BG, all you see is him running away getting shot at. :eek:

18DAI
April 25, 2006, 05:15 PM
Quaterbacking from my armchair ,it looks like he didn't have a good angle on the BG ,and shot danger close to that woman and baby. But I wasn't there. Anyone know the outcome? Did he hit the BG? Come to think of it ,were the bystanders injured? Regards 18DAI.

threegun
April 25, 2006, 05:19 PM
Old video. The guy scored three good hit of his three shots fired. The badguy survived. I won't second guess his decision to shoot I will second guess his making of the video.

Topthis
April 25, 2006, 05:26 PM
I think this was posted last week or the week before. Can't stand the stupid music...

MDW Guns
April 25, 2006, 05:33 PM
With the mother with a baby on her arm I would have not taken the risk unless there was a very high risk for life.
Since we don't see this on the video, we can assume anything!

Maddog_Enigma
April 25, 2006, 06:19 PM
Was NOT a bank. That was a motel.

marlboroman84
April 25, 2006, 06:36 PM
I saw this video a while back and I remember saying to my buddy that it seemed kinda risky the way the guy kept firing even after the BG ran that close to the mom and baby. The video's angle is kinda bad so it's hard to say, but it looked to me like the BG ran after the first shot. I don't think I'd still be shooting at someone running away unless they were going for another weapon or something. Luckily the baby didn't get hit, but that was just to close for my liking. Not saying he reacted badly, but he should have stopped firing after the first round or two.

Steamboatsig
April 25, 2006, 09:18 PM
Apparently, the shooter/employee discussed the event in www.packing.org, but I can't find it. If you find it post a link.

DWARREN123
April 25, 2006, 09:35 PM
Going behind the other employee to draw and shooting past the woman with child in arms seems dangerous to them to me, but I don't know all the info or if someone was in immediate danger.

pickpocket
April 25, 2006, 09:43 PM
The shooter had posted on another forum stating that the camera makes the angle look a lot worse than it was in real life. He also stated that the mother had written him a letter expressing her thanks at trying to protect her and her baby.

With that said - whoever made that video is an idiot, whether it be the shooter or not. Also, in hindsight, had BG decided to shoot back - especially while running away - everyone in that room would have been in danger.

Derius_T
April 25, 2006, 10:35 PM
Looks like a standard bank camera that is normally above each teller station to me. Doesn't look like a 'person' taped it. As for the shot, hard to say from the limited video, and no other angles. It did look awfully close to the woman and child though....

chrisandclauida2
April 25, 2006, 11:16 PM
he did right and wrong. the excellent tactical move was concealing his draw behind the rotund teller lady. once he drew he fracked the pooch royally. he had a case of major tunnel vision. if the mother wasn't alert or if she froze he would have shot her baby and probably her.

this could have gone terribly gone and while the perp would be charged for felony murder the teller could have a manslaughter charge if he hit baby or mom.

as for shooting while the guy is running away he is ok on that provided the guy had or said he had a weapon. as long as that guy is in the building he is a threat and to keep hooting while reckless wasn't illegal. i wonder if he hit the bad guy and how many cars he hit out side.

like i said in another thread we aren't to judge those in situations but we are to pick them apart and learn.

so what did we learn,
1 excellent tactical draw concealing the motion and not getting killed cause the bad guy saw his draw.

2 watch that tunnel vision and who is in the room and where they move. you have to pay as much attention to the innocents as the bad guy.

3 dont rob that bank or you will get a hole or two /

BamaXD
April 25, 2006, 11:27 PM
As far as I can tell, and I am no cop, he did everything correctly, except of course getting a little too close to the mother and child, but what I would like to know is what words were exchanged or what the original sound was to the video, that music is crap and overdramatized. I would just like to know if anything was said. -BamaXD

oldbillthundercheif
April 25, 2006, 11:36 PM
Yikes! I guess he must have thought the robber was about to shoot someone. Either that or he had already made up his mind to shoot him and went all-out when he saw an opportunity. Seeing the whole video with the origional audio (if any) would give you a better idea what happened. Anybody got a link to the uncut footage?

Trip20
April 26, 2006, 12:23 AM
That's something I've wondered about from time to time. Do you take your chances that the scum bag will leave with out violence once he/she gets the loot, or do you take the first opportunity to tip the scales in your favor?

Tough question.

westphoenix
April 26, 2006, 12:39 AM
More to read:

Original edited video: http://f7.putfile.com/videos/d3-6314135890.wmv

http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?t=2737

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=443057&page=1

Yoshi
April 26, 2006, 01:12 AM
From what i can see in the vid, if that had been my wife and kid , that guard better shoot me or start running.

threegun
April 26, 2006, 05:40 AM
Some more info that might explain why this clerk took action despite the innocents nearby. Apparently the robber was a disgruntled hotel guest who threatened to kill the clerk prior to holding the place up. Also the robber fell outside the door and was arrested. The clerk clearly advances to the door gun at the ready but the bad guy was done.

wun_8_seven
April 26, 2006, 08:53 AM
he wasn't a guard, he is a clerk. the woman with the child was 3-4' to his left. the police, DA, and people present said he did a good job.

kentak
April 26, 2006, 09:00 AM
Why do some criticize making the video? It was a surveillance camera. I don't know how it got on the web. I doubt it was the shooter's decision, but maybe.

It was a motel. The shooter was an NRA instructor.

I won't judge him because I wasn't in the situation, but it looks like all three shots are with the BG retreating. Not the best decision IF you are in a gun-phobic locality.

K

pickpocket
April 26, 2006, 09:13 AM
Why do some criticize making the video?

You're joking, right?

Yes, it's a standard security camera - however I highly doubt that the surveillance company added the music for aesthetic resons...
Using your own "gun-phobic locality" logic against you - how well do you think that video would help the guy in civil court? There are only so many people that would have had access to that surveillance footage, and putting it on the internet was most irresponsible, period. Even if the shooter didn't do it, it still reflects poorly on him..

Glenn E. Meyer
April 26, 2006, 09:23 AM
This one was discussed in another closed thread with the typical paradigmatic debate about cowardly caution vs. reckless heroics. :D

One can look for it.

chrisandclauida2
April 26, 2006, 09:39 AM
after some investigating and some correcting i found this is a hotel/motel desk. i was also told that this wasn't tunnel vision but that the 2 d nature of the camera didn't properly show that the mom and baby were actually a couple to a few feet to the clerks left.

i am happy to see his level head ness in drawing concealed then engaging. my only concern was possible tunnel vision. i only mention this not for a put down but so the rest of us can learn. none of us are trying to screw this guy were picking it apart to learn and be better trained and more prepared.

no tunnel vision and i learned he supposedly connected on 3 of the rounds fired. that would be exceptional under stress marksmanship and much better than the norm in like situations.

westphoenix
April 26, 2006, 10:04 AM
In the links I provided above it provides you many answers to the questions you guys have asked.
The shooter on the tape did add the music to the video and included a picture of himself holding a gun at the end of the "original" I posted above.

nefshooter
April 26, 2006, 11:50 AM
I'm with Kentak the guy was trying to leave with the lady and a baby that close i would have not taken the shot the baby my have earing problems later. No amount of money is worth shooting a bystandard. The bad guy fired after the guy pulled his weapon.

drifts1
April 26, 2006, 07:40 PM
The victim turned shooter acted correctly in my opinion. It seems according to other sources that the BG was armed and had made previous threats. The mother & child were close, but in this case they were close enough that they were not in the line of fire unless this guy shoots 4-5 foot groups at 2 yards. Looking again at the video it looks as the shooter ducks down prior to shooting, wonder if he was shot at first:confused: For those that think he should not of fired as the BG was running away, well let me say that growing up in a violent city and actually witnessing numerous shootouts, bad guys often shoot back while moving/running away. In the few seconds that this incident took place he did not have time to analize the situation as we do. If that was my wife and child I would be personally thanking him for possibly saving them from harm or death. The BG would be the one that would have be afraid of me. Blame the criminal, not the armed citizen, I'm sure the gun grabbers will take care of that.

Harley Quinn
April 26, 2006, 08:10 PM
Bad guy got hit, no one injured but the BG.

Bank, Hotel whatever. I know now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the BG...LOL

It could have been a hostage situation, it could have been a lot worse, sorry about the noise and the baby and mother 5 feet away. I have seen um shot 6" away and the women cry and thanking the shooter.

You guys need some real life excitment, besides the web.:barf:

HQ

TexiCali Slim
April 26, 2006, 08:22 PM
Way too risky, I mean it had the "Typical" woman with the baby scenario. I would have let him take the money and leave, Im no coward but the weight of having a mother AND/OR baby killed because I wanted the money more would kill my concience for the rest of my life.
If this were a 1on1 scenario I'd say go for it, but this guys a coward, he hid behind the woman behind the counter and shot with the woman and the baby in the middle of it. I dont care how "funny" the camera angle is, a motel check in AINT that big.:mad:

valsj
April 26, 2006, 09:09 PM
its right it might be worst if he doesnt shoot the guy immediately. it might be hard to handle a hostage situation. if that instances happened in my country it will be a very long story.:D :p

miscusi
April 26, 2006, 09:13 PM
wasnt that "limp wristing" ? the gun shook in his hand like a bartender making a martini.

Harley Quinn
April 26, 2006, 09:19 PM
Last guys I was hunting with in Texas, were shoot um first, then ask questions.

If the guy was a coward he would not have done what he did.
I still say he did the right thing. If it would of gone bad then I might say different.

He just was a very good strategist, played his cards a little close but... Caught the guy off guard and he won the fight.
Matt Dillion he was not, more like 'Doc' or Wyatt. Sun Tzu would be proud.

Look at the big picture here, no hostages, no prisoners just a shot BG.

The old saying, any landing you walk away from, is a good one. (airplane talk)

HQ:cool:

TCman
April 26, 2006, 10:11 PM
Did anyone else notice the first round that hit the celing?

westphoenix
April 27, 2006, 01:22 AM
No amount of money is worth shooting a bystandard.

He didn't shoot a bystandard. He was shooting to save all their lives.
The robber was packing a .45 Colt.
See the chance to take out the threat take it.
Don't wait around for him to pop one as he runs out.
Happens way too often.

Im no coward but the weight of having a mother AND/OR baby killed because I wanted the money more would kill my concience for the rest of my life.

How would your conscience feel if you had the chance to take him out and you let him pop someone on the way out?

What if the next night he robbed a Circle K and killed the clerk there because he couldn't open the register fast enough?

The clerk found a time to catch the criminal off guard and he took it, successfully I might add.

I have seen too many videos of people getting shot in robberies for no reason. I wouldn't have let him control the situation either.

wun_8_seven
April 27, 2006, 05:32 AM
[QUOTE][Did anyone else notice the first round that hit the celing?/QUOTE]

he fired three rounds they all hit the bg. not sure what you saw. the police report shows three rounds fired all hits.

chrisandclauida2
April 27, 2006, 09:27 AM
as for shooting as the guy ran. the perp already committed a crime that allows the use of deadly force in response. end of story. as long as he has gun in hand and is in the same room he gets shot at till one he dropps the gun or lays down and quit.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 27, 2006, 09:49 AM
To look at the issue without posturing about morality - the issue is the best outcome.

What is the best outcome?

1. To stop the thief?
2. To make sure every good person doesn't get hurt?

Most banks suggest stopping the thief is NOT a goal. The goal is to make sure folks are safe. You can rant about philosophy if you want but risking other folks skin for your chest pounding is not really acceptable to me.

Thus, was lethal force called for to protect the lives of the people in the bank?

The guy was armed and could shoot even if you cooperate. These situations are tense and BGs can act in a manner which seems irrational. He could shoot back even when he was getting clean away.

On the other hand, if the BG was evaluated as fleeing, engaging him could cause him to stop fleeing and engage the fight more. Thus, more shots fired.

That's a hard call.

Then there is the baby - someone said that the baby was not in a typical range of fire. If you shoot a lot in stress situations, you do see shots go very wild.

At a recent high end class, I was in - I was standing behind the line watching the shooters with my partner. Another set of guys were shooting at the target.

The targets were 1,2 and 3. We had 3 and were waiting for our turn.

As the 2 group was shooting, I saw a hole appear on our 3 about 6 feet away. The shooting distance was about 5 yards.

I have also seen simmunitions hits on good guys several times in FOF with very skilled shooters. Not through mistaken identity but a round going wide because of stress.

While the baby wasn't hit, it is a risk to consider.

The current incident isn't a yes/no. The shooter took considerable risk. It worked out. Does that mean it was a reasonable decision? You really can't tell. You can't determine the odds with one shooting.

I said in the other thread - if the guy looked like he was going full blast out the door, I would have held him the sights and let him go.

Is there a risk to that - sure. However, my goal state would be to get the best possible outcome in terms of no injury as compared to stopping a robbery of money.

Maddog_Enigma
April 27, 2006, 10:07 AM
It Was Not A Bank...it Was A Motel.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 27, 2006, 10:11 AM
That makes all the difference. Shooting a baby in a motel is just fine?

PythonGuy
April 27, 2006, 10:13 AM
Well Glenn, you are just no fun, what would all the wannabe "Dirty Harry's" do if they can't dream about using their gun on someone? Settle it with common sense, that doesn't get the gun out and the heart pumping. Listening to what you wrote would preclude any gunplay, isn't that the point of having a gun??:cool:

Tongue firmly in cheek.....

isa268
April 27, 2006, 11:08 AM
what i want to know is that most criminals use a glock. why did the BG use a .45LC revolver in this case?? that's a unique gun for a BG.

DunedinDragon
April 27, 2006, 12:36 PM
HEY!!!! Here's a story about person that was armed but decided not to use his weapon with an armed bad guy....I wonder how he feels about his decision now?

Armed but decided not to shoot (http://thirtysecondthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/12/lessons-learned-tacoma-mall-shooting.html)

PythonGuy
April 27, 2006, 12:41 PM
ISA, how or why would that make a difference? Don't you think a criminal would just use whatever gun he can get his hands on? Do you think criminals come on this forum and ask which round would be better for robbing motels with? Although with some of the questions on here, who knows....... :D

PythonGuy
April 27, 2006, 12:45 PM
It amazes me how some people are surprised that other's can't just dispassionately shoot and kill someone, even in a life or death situation. From behind the keyboard you can take on the whole world, but one on one in a real shooting situation, you just never really know.:confused:

Glenn E. Meyer
April 27, 2006, 02:25 PM
The Mall guy screwed up as his evaluation of the tactical situation was flawed. However, his screw up doesn't necessarily imply that all situations are the same and are shoot situations.

Surface level cliches are the bane of the gun world. My analysis, again grasshoppers, is that you are quite able to use lethal force and you do if it gives you the best outcome. Mall guy was incorrect in his analysis.

Doug.38PR
April 27, 2006, 02:48 PM
Everything happened so quick. The shots did look AWFULLY close to that lady and her child. But that was from an angle. From the good guy with the gun's angle it might have been in fact a little different. Not too sure what the bad guy was doing out of view to cause himself to be fired at.

In short, too little information from a loud music (?) video of a short video shot at an angle

threegun
April 27, 2006, 03:24 PM
Glenn, According to info on another forum the bad guy was a disgruntled hotel guest that threatened to kill the manager before being kicked out. This might explain why the manager acted despite the risks. It would change everything for me.

slow944
April 27, 2006, 03:50 PM
I've looked at this video for a month or so now and to me it looks like the BG gets off the first shot towards the camera at the Motel 6 or whichever chain it was. The clerk was asked about the mom and baby being so close and from what the clerk said it was about 6ft between him and them when the shooting started. But all 3 of his shots scored a hit and the BG was arrested.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 27, 2006, 03:53 PM
What does it really influence? I see two issues.

1. I ignore my odds of shooting a baby because the man threatened me previously. That lowers my responsibility to shoot in a manner threatening to others? No, I don't think so.

2. He may not just be fleeing for good and unlikely to return. He may be likely to regroup and continue the fight as we have information of that threat. Thus, I need to remove the threat as he may come back. The fight is still on. That might have some validity. He is still in your presence and armed. While in your presence, my opinion (worth what you paid for it) is that it is justified to shoot at him. If I thought the fight wouldn't be over as he is heading for the sun set - then I have no problem shooting at him (with all other caveats not preventing a shot - like baby in the possible range of fire).

Thus, if he is in the room and armed shooting at him is justified, given that you think the risk continues. Once he is outside, one assumes a defensive posture. Chasing him would seem foolish as already discussed. The legality of such would also be debatable.

pickpocket
April 27, 2006, 04:40 PM
Is this still going back and forth? :rolleyes:

Come on guys - let's let this one die already.:)

Harley Quinn
April 27, 2006, 09:17 PM
When looking at it again and again, I did see a puff of smoke in the ceiling area.
Maybe a ricochet from going thru the guy and to the ceiling. I could not really make it out clearly.
But clearly there was a puff or cloud of debris just as the person behind the counter started firing.

Accidental discharge by bad guy??

I saw what looked like a dim flash light on the wall a couple of times.
I am going to go back and look again. Anyone else see it. Just as the shooting starts watch at 12 oclock above the bg.

Good observation.

HQ

Glenn E. Meyer
April 28, 2006, 09:42 AM
Pickpocket - an internet commando never lets a good shoot 'em scenario die. It is only till the moderator gets frustrated that a scenario is put down.

They are like religious wars. :D

wun_8_seven
April 28, 2006, 02:26 PM
good guy fired three ,bg fired 0. this is old .bg is in prison everything worked out ok. whats left to discuss.

threegun
April 28, 2006, 03:31 PM
I ignore my odds of shooting a baby because the man threatened me previously. That lowers my responsibility to shoot in a manner threatening to others? No, I don't think so.


The odds of your shot hitting the baby are zilch. Your starting a shoot out, that MIGHT have ended with just money taken, that the opponents rounds harm the baby has better odds. The alternative though is to wait until the bad guy decides to shoot you, then its to late. This is why the threats to kill the clerk might have influenced his decision. Do I shoot or not? Most robberies end non violently.....right. But wait bad guy threatened to kill me earlier. This changes everything to me.

Denny Hansen
April 28, 2006, 05:15 PM
As mentioned many times here, due to the angle, it's hard to tell how far he was from the woman and child. I'm purely guessing that it was not as close as it appeared. I don't know the nature or credibility of the threats the BG made to the clerk before the shooting. If the threats were credible, I think the clerk did good.

What I did see was a good surreptitious draw, maintaining the element of surprise. After the BG went outside, the shooter came from behind the counter and covered down on the BG and put himself between the woman and child as they went to "cover" behind the counter. The shooter's reflection is visible in the window as he continues to cover down. From a purely tactical point of view, it looked pretty good to me.

Denny

Doggieman
May 4, 2006, 12:49 AM
I would not cry if that dumb broad had been plugged anyway. Some guy comes in with a gun and a ski mask and she just stands there with her kid like an idiot??? Maybe the clerk could have said "ma'am could you take three giant steps to your right" before blasting away but I think he did everything he could have to move to the side to avoid her.

The music and portrait of himself at the end were naturally over the top but the guy ain't a rocket scientist anyway. He is a good shot though and handled what looked to be a .45 very well IMHO. I'd have him on my team any day.