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View Full Version : Banana Gun...what would you do?


Duxman
April 12, 2006, 09:57 AM
Dont try this at home or at the bank:

From SI online today 4/12/06

Chicago police officer Kelly Davis, who doubles as a bodyguard for prominent athletes, was off duty last month when he walked into a bank robbery in progress. The robber, clad in a clown mask and armed with what appeared to be an Uzi, fled the scene on a bicycle. Davis gave chase and caught the man, restraining him until backup arrived. The suspect was found with nearly $6,000 in cash in his pocket and what turned out to be a plastic weapon. Not to be outdone, Davis, after police arrived, pulled out his own "weapon," procuring a banana from his pocket.

This is hardly the most surreal scenario in which Davis has been involved: I know him from his days as one of Dennis Rodman's chief protectors.

OK gentlemen - so if you noticed that the bank robber had a "fake" gun - and you know 100% it is fake - would you apprehend if you had a real gun, what about if you didnt?

dragonfire
April 12, 2006, 10:10 AM
Being it that airsoft and other toy guns look so real these days it could be hard to tell i thimk id leave it to law enforcement.Now if the gun clearly had the orange tip I may think about it.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 12, 2006, 10:32 AM
If I saw a banana, I would split.

atlctyslkr
April 12, 2006, 10:43 AM
Check your state's laws on using deadly force to stop a forcible felony. I know here you can. The only tricky part is convicing that jury that you really thought the lives of others were in danger. There are many plastic toy copies of guns out there that look very real up close and from a distance of more than a few feet would be practically impossible to tell the difference. I don't know if I could tell a starter pistol from a real .38 accross a bank lobby (assuming it had a full length cylinder and no flourecent paint on the barrel).

Twycross
April 12, 2006, 03:51 PM
if you noticed that the bank robber had a "fake" gun - and you know 100% it is fake - would you apprehend if you had a real gun
Yes.
what about if you didnt?
Probably. Really all that you have to do is prove to everyone else that the 'gun' is indeed a fake, and that doesn't necessarily mean tackling the guy right there in the lobby.

Trip20
April 12, 2006, 05:10 PM
I wouldn't get involved at all other than being a good witness. Even though I "know 100%" it's a fake gun, they pay people to deal with this sort of thing. Also, what if I were wrong about the gun?

If the bank isn't concerned enough to station an armed guard(s) on it's property (or the guard present is not intervening), I sure don't care enough about it's money to lift a finger. I'll protect life, not a bank's cash.

Of course this all would change if a really loooooow fixed interest rate were a potential reward. :p Kidding.

PPCLI 2 can.
April 12, 2006, 05:19 PM
2 things come to my mind

1 walk up and give him / her the biggest uppercut straight from detroit

2 beat him up to with an inch of his life then have my way with him :barf:

" my mind is a terrible thing to taste " ministry

loosecannon
April 12, 2006, 08:19 PM
No not for a bank robbery if somebody was getting hurt and there was a way I could stop that, that would be a different matter I would try to help if I could.

kentak
April 12, 2006, 08:50 PM
Since you are 100% sure the gun is fake, what's the compelling reason to take action with no one in danger? Sure, you might get 15 minutes of fame as the local hero, but there could be downsides as well.

Instead, be the best witness you can. Maybe even follow him out of the bank to try to get a vehicle description or tag number. But leave it at that.

I know what many of you are thinking. Most of us would have a normal sense of moral outrage at seeing someone commit a crime. We bristle at the idea of the bad guy getting away. Maybe we'd even like to dish out a few lumps. But that might be more rash than rational.

Just my thoughts.

K

The Pilgrim
April 12, 2006, 09:16 PM
If I was absolutely sure the gun was fake I'd jump in. What are the chances of getting your butt kicked in a public place by a crook?

If the gun was real, or might be real...I think he can have the bank's insured money. My own cash is another story. I honestly think I might be stupid enough to play the odds. I have heard (don't know if it's true) that less than 25% of shootings, even at close range, are fatal.

USNavy_233
April 13, 2006, 03:12 AM
If I was absolutely sure the gun was fake I'd jump in. What are the chances of getting your butt kicked in a public place by a crook?


Considering most people are "dumb sheep", I'd say the only thing necessary for you to get your butt kicked in a public place by a crook is for the crook to absorb your initial blow and counter attack. Don't EVER trust that the average Joe will jump in to help if you decide to play hero and things start going south for you. Besides, if the gun is fake then there is no real threat posed; just monitor closely and report his description, vehicle, etc to the police.

banditt007
April 14, 2006, 04:47 PM
Anyone care to guess how long it'll be before the goblins, vermin, whatever start painting orange bands on the front of their firearms?

ERIC GEL, they already do. Orange tip or not shoot their ass. they do this so people people think its fake, and or even to get others to just hesistate so they get the upper hand.

Law enforcement knows (or at least dam well should) know about this, its not very popular but some do it, and there are confirmed cases of this.


BTW if you are in a bank and someone has what appears to be a real gun aimed at a bank teller, you can shoot them correct?

I mean someone elses life is in grave danger, and what are you supposed to do wait until they shoot someone?

Ledbetter
April 14, 2006, 05:17 PM
Bad facts. No one is ever 100% sure of anything and that is not the legal standard. Reasonable fear for the physical safety of self and others is.

Consider: "Hey Bozo, drop the gun (NOT "drop the banana"). If Bozo pointed his banana at me after that warning, he would be looking out of a third eye at the two holes in his chest.

steelheart
April 14, 2006, 05:35 PM
Give peace a chance.:D

I carry a firearm for the purpose of protecting my life and the lives of my family - not to save a billion dollar bank chain from being robbed of $6000 by a clown.

I'll take care of my family - since the police aren't obligated to. That will free them up to attend to their priorities - billion dollar bank chains and other big business, as well as protecting their elected bosses (politicians).

Smoke Screen
April 14, 2006, 06:09 PM
If I saw a banana, I'd split too!! LOL! :D :D :D But only if it was Sundae! ----> *slaps knee and snickers*

(sorry, had to follow up with something!)

Rightwinger
April 15, 2006, 10:38 AM
The problem I have is that in the situation ou have no idea as to where it is heading. A simple grab the cash and dash is far different from the bank robber taking the customers hostage and taking their posessions (money, jewelry, electronics). Besides that, if the guy takes everyone hostage and finds your CC firearm, do you think you're not the first one he's shooting if it comes to that?

Gun out and very direct verbal commands to drop the weapon and raise hands above the head.
Do I pursue if he flees? Hell no, the imediate threat to me and my fellow patrons is in the past.
Do I shoot if he aims the "gun" at me? Yes.

PPCLI 2 can.
April 18, 2006, 10:15 PM
If I saw a banana, I'd split too!! LOL! But only if it was Sundae! ----> *slaps knee and snickers*

(sorry, had to follow up with something!)


teeehhhheee that was good :D

marlboroman84
April 19, 2006, 06:39 PM
I know where I live practically all the banks have no firearms allowed signs posted, so even if the situation was bad enough to warrant me shooting a robber in a bank, I'd imagine I'd still have some explaining to do to the police on why I carried my gun in anyway. If the robber was hurting other people or threatening me, real gun or not, if I had the chance I'd take him down. That being said though I have had military training so I'm not average joe hey i learned to fight from the bruce willis collection. On the other hand if he just grabbed the money and ran I'd just let it go, because training or not , my luck the robber would be some ex-black ops-kung-fu-ninja that would hand my butt to me on a platter.:D

joab
April 19, 2006, 06:57 PM
If I were %100 percent positive that it was a fake gun (if that'seven possible)
I would do nothing but be a good witness.

Nobody is in danger and the bank's own policy is to let the money go

robmkivseries70
April 22, 2006, 11:12 AM
Hi All,
Yeah, the BG could have his own backup, complete with lead pipe, knife etc. Let the money go, it's replaceable.
best,
Rob

shield20
April 22, 2006, 11:34 AM
I always wonder what a potential hero would do, once convinced the BG's gun was fake and while making the attempt to detain him, if the BG told him to "screw off - are going to shoot me?" as he starts to run away. NOW what do you do? A little embarassing I think, maybe a little dangerous too?

And you KNOW his gun is fake, so shooting him now would be a little hard to explain. Do you tackle/wrestle him? Where is your CCW? Reholstered? In your hand? And now he KNOWS YOU have a gun. Does he want it? Are going to roll around with him? :confused:

PSE
April 23, 2006, 11:55 AM
lets see. guy robs bank w/ bannana.
bank hits silent alarm.
cops in route.
i pull weapon and detain bannana guy.
the cops show up ready for another N Hollywood shootout and see me w/ gun.
Uh, NO!

JoshB
April 23, 2006, 01:39 PM
I've thought this this one through a few times as I suspect most others have. Bottom line is that my 1911 comes out to the ready and BG is ordered to drop his gun. If he doesn't comply, he has a few Fed Hydraschock .45 rounds tearing through his chest!:barf:
One of my good friends carries a 454 Taurus Raging Bull in the winter. He always says if he ever had to take it out he may never have to fire it! I certainly would not want to be on the recieving end of that!:eek:

razorburn
April 23, 2006, 06:38 PM
The guy probably wouldn't be able to tell a 454 casull from a .22 when it's pointed at him. At any distance greater than a few inches, it's hard to see a difference in size of less than a 1/4" of an inch. Is he going to describe the ballistics of the 454 to the guy and hope he pees himself? If he fires, he'll blast straight through the guy, as well as people or walls until it found and possibly killing or injuring any number of people behind him.

NJDAG
April 24, 2006, 09:43 AM
Being it that airsoft and other toy guns look so real these days it could be hard to tell i thimk id leave it to law enforcement.Now if the gun clearly had the orange tip I may think about it.

A big problem that we are having in Trenton with these gangbangers is that, if they get a hold of one of those Airsoft guns, or a pellet gun, that has the orange tip, they paint it or marker it black. With some of those guns, you can't tell if it's real or not until you see the diameter of the muzzle, and who wants to get that close to it if they're not sure?

JoshB
April 24, 2006, 06:42 PM
The 454 is a very large revolver (concealable only in winter under a thick coat). The mere size of it - 8 3/4" barrel, not to mention the rest of the gun -makes it intimidating. No, I don't necessarily think someone would realize it was a 454 per se, but they would know that they wouldn't be on the recieving end of it.
As far as penetration goes, I think that is why he uses hollow points.

leadcounsel
April 28, 2006, 10:37 AM
Isn't one of the top reasons that we can CCW, following defending ourselves and loved ones, is making society a safer place? That means indirectly safer, simply by the BGs not knowing who is CCW and who is not. That also means intervening in crimes when we safely can. Seems like this is a situation where we safely can intervene.

From "Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels"

"Your gun says "Replica" down the side, whereas mine says Desert Eagle Five point O."

If the gun were clearly fake as the question states:

Yes I would intervene. The law doesn't recognize the difference between a real or fake gun in the commission of a crime and nor do I. It is the perceived threat of deadly force. In my state and most states you have the right to use lethal force in the defense of yourself or a 3rd party from the use of lethal force, including perceived lethal force (aka a fake gun). I would likely have a gun myself. This scenario, where a criminal is in the process of the commision of a violent felony, I would quitely draw, take aim, watch my background, and shoot the perp in the com and head several times. Makes it alot less expensive for tax payers (loss of money from the bank, police work, trial, incarceration). You've probably just saved tax payers $500,000 in the "due process" of this criminal. If I didn't have a clear shot and could not move to a clear shot, I would hold this man at gun point for the police. If I didn't have a gun or knife, I think a solid sucker punch or judo takedown, legsweep, or maybe a running shoulder tackle would take him out of commission quite quickly, and I imagine that I'd be supported by the other bank patrons (ala post 9/11 mentality). No, I"m not a mall ninja, but I am a strong, athletic, 6'1" man with quite a bit of martial arts and firearms training. Am I a Navy Seal? No. But I'm very confident that I could kick the average person's A**, especially with the aid of a surprise attack.

Sure there are people who get paid for this sort of thing but:
1. We all pay when bank crooks win
2. Who knows, you could be saving a life down the road (say the perp runs over someone during his flight)
3. Why not stop something you can stop? Not a real big risk
4. I can't imagine you'd be criminalized; quite the contrary you might be considered a hero. In fact, most banks offer $10,000 reward for information leading to the prevention or arrest of bank robbers. I would make a very compelling case that my intervention in a robbery was worthy of that reward.
5. 15 minutes of fame anyone? Could be worthy of its weight in gold. Not to mention a positive news article for CCWs out there, right. Besides, nobody needs to know that you knew the bank robber had a replica gun, right?


As far as painting the tips of REAL guns orange, what would the incentive be? Noncompliance because people think that gun is fake? Crooks want immediate compliance, not questions about the authenticity of their weapons. If anything, they would remove the plastic tips from their guns...

leadcounsel
April 28, 2006, 10:55 AM
How would those of you who said they would not intervene react if I was also in the bank and drew and shot the perp, or say that I were in the bank and tacked the BG and was struggling on the ground. Would you lend assistance or still stand there, getting the BGs description?


OR


What if you're on a plane and someone with a razor blade tries to hijack the plane. You're clearly unarmed, but are you still taking a "wait and see" and "get a good description" attitude?

Glenn E. Meyer
April 28, 2006, 11:20 AM
While you make some interesting points, your example of the plane hijacking is irrelevant and just a failed debating trick.

We now know that a plane hijacking is an immediate lethal threat. Implying that the wait and see attitude is related to attacking someone with a known plastic gun makes no sense.

Also, engaging in physical combat with said plastic gun carrier makes no sense. I'm glad that folks have such confidence in their physical ability but once in close contact, your risk level goes up dramatically. Said plastic gun person might easily have a knife and deploy such on you.

The interesting question is whether if you are sure that the gun is fake, you kill or attempt to kill the person under the cover of:

1. The law doesn't distinguish between fakes and real (because it assume you don't know at the time).

2. You think you can get away with it and thus take the opportunity to kill someone as that is congruent with your personal 'philosophy' , personality structure or fantasies of monetary/societal reward.

Taking a life for those reasons is rather problematic. The use of lethal force is usually to prevent grievous bodily harm. Thus, you know that the weapon is fake and will not produce grievous bodily harm and you decide that to be executioner. Does the law in your state mandate capital punishment for an armed bankrobber where no one is killed? However, you decide given your perfect knowledge of the gun being fake that you will apply such a penalty.

If you don't know the gun is fake and the situation is such that shooting will produce the best outcome in protecting others from grievous bodily harm then I have no problem with it.

If you know the gun is fake and you decide to use that fact to safely shoot the guy - that's not in my play book.

leadcounsel
April 28, 2006, 02:01 PM
While you make some interesting points, your example of the plane hijacking is irrelevant and just a failed debating trick. We now know that a plane hijacking is an immediate lethal threat. Implying that the wait and see attitude is related to attacking someone with a known plastic gun makes no sense.

One NEVER knows what the criminal element has in mind. Maybe the bank robber with a fake gun really has something more diabolical in mind ala 9/11. We just don't know, do we? I'm not about to wait and find out. Besides, he could very well kill someone or cause pursuing police to kill someone in his flight.

Also, engaging in physical combat with said plastic gun carrier makes no sense. I'm glad that folks have such confidence in their physical ability but once in close contact, your risk level goes up dramatically. Said plastic gun person might easily have a knife and deploy such on you.

All the reason that it does make sense. Maybe he intends to take a hostage? I have NO idea what he intends. I'd rather fight a battle on MY terms at MY choosing than on HIS terms. The element of surprise is important and I would attempt to take full advantage of that. Put HIM on the defensive and make HIM alter his plan.

The interesting question is whether if you are sure that the gun is fake, you kill or attempt to kill the person under the cover of:

1. The law doesn't distinguish between fakes and real (because it assume you don't know at the time).

Interesting point. It would be interesting to hear the arguments from the prosecution and defense. Under most state laws a robbery is considered an armed robbery if it is completed with force or threat of force, no matter how believeable or slight. Defendant used a pistol that appeared to be fake, but his actions still qualify as armed robbery. And, you may know it's fake but others may not. They perceive this as a very real threat.

2. You think you can get away with it and thus take the opportunity to kill someone as that is congruent with your personal 'philosophy' , personality structure or fantasies of monetary/societal reward.

No more than I would if I were defending my life or the lives of others or my home. Take away the toy gun and say he appears unarmed and comes up to you on the street and says give me your wallet or I'll kill you in a very intimidating and threating way, cornering you.

Taking a life for those reasons is rather problematic. The use of lethal force is usually to prevent grievous bodily harm. Thus, you know that the weapon is fake and will not produce grievous bodily harm and you decide that to be executioner. Does the law in your state mandate capital punishment for an armed bankrobber where no one is killed? However, you decide given your perfect knowledge of the gun being fake that you will apply such a penalty.

Lethal force can be used to defend yourself against the threat or reasonable perceived threat of imminent serious bodily harm. It can include a severe beating and someone committing a violent felony. Last I checked, a man robbing a federal bank, even with a toy gun, is a violent felon endangering the lives of many (directly and indirectly). Even if the world knew he had a toy gun, the police would still come and draw down on him and shoot him if he made any attempt to point the gun at anyone.

Call me "Judge, jury and executioner" if you will, but I don't distinguish this between if a person trys to rob me through force or the threat of force. As a CCW I will shoot him dead if the situation requires.

Glenn E. Meyer
April 28, 2006, 05:32 PM
That changes the game a bit. If the logic is that he is committing a violent felony even with a known fake gun and is still a risk to folks, then shooting him is quite acceptable. He might have a knife as I posed and could have pulled it out.

However, I was commenting on shooting him has a measure of social house cleaning because you knew that he was not a risk with the fake gun but you get a legal free shot.

That is a personal philosophy question of eliminating a nonrisk for whatever reason. I certainly agree with eliminating a violent risk.

I might conclude that the act of the robbery itself with the threat of force itself is a justification to shoot. Not shooting is based on tactical situations as you decide what is the best outcome path is reasonable also.

I still don't want to wrestle with the dude as most bank robbers tend to leave. It's a risk call. Fake gun man probably wants the money and to go. Will Fake gun man risk a hostage, probably low odds on that but it could happen. However, I think Fake Gun Man flees and that's a little risk of harm. YMMV.

mvpel
April 28, 2006, 07:25 PM
Even though I "know 100%" it's a fake gun, they pay people to deal with this sort of thing.

To slightly alter Ronald Reagan's famous quote - "When government expands, society contracts."

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