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CAPTAIN MIKE
April 10, 2006, 11:13 PM
I guess I've had to overcome the PC issues, and I (Gulp) hereby accept the reality that profiling is not really so much about race as it is about attitude, dress, behavior and signals that are being sent out by the prospective Bad Guys.

The past weekend, it happened again. I was in a favorite food place (FatBurger) and in comes three gangsta types, looking the part and acting the part by their manner, attitude, swagger, etc. But this time, rather than just think about it, I actually did get my little boy up and out. Then, from a safe position with my little boy out of the way, I watched the action inside, and nothing happened. However, this time I didn't feel so darn "guilty" about profiling the individuals who swaggered in acting all "bad ass".

My 'situational awareness' skills have gone up considerably, and in the real world I am going with safety first and political correctness last. If some guys act like, dress like and behave like my internal definition of Gangsters, I guess I should trust my instincts and move and act accordingly.

pickpocket
April 10, 2006, 11:24 PM
Good for you! And the more you rely on and use your "SA" the more developed it will become.

cal
April 10, 2006, 11:35 PM
When I was a kid I was taught to size up folks by the way they presented themselves. And to look em over closely. There are books written on this.

The only folks who abhore profiling are those that should be profiled. Profiling is a life saving skill.

Remember If you walk like a duck, quack like a duck, You are more than likely a duck.
Thus if you walk like a lunatic, act like a lunatic....

Still in the end it's YOUR safety. Look em over closely and size em up accordingly. You'll be very rarely wrong.

Archie
April 11, 2006, 11:55 AM
Has a much maligned and misunderstood purpose.

The Supreme Court outlawed the use of 'racial profiling' years ago as a law enforcement screening tool. What that really means is, a LEO cannot use 'race' as the sole or primary factor in enforcement stops or actions.

In the same decision, SCOTUS said all LEOs have the ability and right to use the "... sum total of their training and experience..." in conducting their business.

As a private citizen, the First Amendment gives us all the right to think what we want about others. That "right" burdens us with the responsibility of doing so in a competent and rational manner.

Just so no one misunderstands; I find nothing in either the Constitution or the Bible which requires one to be a victim due to ineptitude or negligence.

Capt Charlie
April 11, 2006, 12:04 PM
I guess I've had to overcome the PC issues, and I (Gulp) hereby accept the reality that profiling is not really so much about race as it is about attitude, dress, behavior and signals that are being sent out by the prospective Bad Guys.
Whether it's PC or not, profiling is one of the most basic and essential parts of self defense, and one of the most important aspects of profiling is being able to read body language. Even prey animals profile by reading the body language of predators to see if they're in hunt mode. For us, it represents a second language that almost never lies, and being able to read it can save your life. Here's Mas Ayoob's take on it.....

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob87.html

Profiling is just another tool, albeit an important one. It can be abused, leading to racism, or it can be the first line of defense for both law enforcement and the average Joe trying to stay safe.

Unfortunately, some who fit the BG profile to a "T" have chosen to link that profile to their own race, and I think that's what leads to racial profiling. I think the key to avoiding that is to consider the totality of the indicators rather than centering on one or two.

Profiling has a similarity to guns. They're both tools, neither good nor bad by themselves. It's how they're used that paints the picture.

Blackwater OPS
April 11, 2006, 05:27 PM
The FBI uses profilers extensively, and race is always a factor they consider.

Nothing wrong with profiling, however if it is on the SOLE basis of race you are going to be a very poor LEO as you will miss what you should be seeing because you are focusing on the wrong person.

Same goes for Private Persons, you will miss the real danger because you are focusing on the wrong thing.

stevekolt
April 11, 2006, 06:08 PM
As far as SA goes, there was a book written a few years ago by Gavin DeBecker titled, "The Gift of Fear" He discusses how to be more in tune with your "gut instinct" and improve your SA skills. Highly recommended, though be warned, he is NO friend of the NRA or the 2nd amendment, but his way of breaking the gut instinct down into component parts and subjective/objective observations is worth the read IMHO.

atlctyslkr
April 11, 2006, 08:23 PM
Suspect anyone and everyone. Criminals come in all shapes and sizes. Plenty of "clean cut" people have robbed banks, shot up stores, ect.

18DAI
April 11, 2006, 08:50 PM
While Profiling is a useful tool (except for the PC feel good crowd) when my daughter asks me what "bad guys" look like ,I tell her they can look just like you and me. Regards 18DAI.

pickpocket
April 11, 2006, 09:04 PM
Of the many self-protection philosophies I've heard over the years, two have stuck with me.

[Edited to account for those people who have no common sense and may take the internet too seriously]

Of course... that was in a combat zone :p

If you dial it back a tiny bit, the same can apply for real-life.

Skyguy
April 12, 2006, 09:49 AM
THINK like everyone you meet wants to kill you, just don't ACT that way.
Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
If you dial it back a tiny bit, the same can apply for real-life.


That's troublesome advice, guy. Reconsider.

As for profiling....definitely do it.
.

Duxman
April 12, 2006, 11:00 AM
Capt. Charlie - I just want to say a hearty thank you. That is a terrific article and the website is a wealth of information. Awesome. :rolleyes:

threegun
April 12, 2006, 02:01 PM
The only folks who abhorrer profiling are those that should be profiled. Profiling is a life saving skill.


Quote of the week here....AMEN.

Skyguy,

THINK like everyone you meet wants to kill you, just don't ACT that way.
Have a plan to kill everyone you meet.


War zone or not if anyone can be a badguy........

I tell her they can look just like you and me.

Suspect anyone and everyone. Criminals come in all shapes and sizes. Plenty of "clean cut" people have robbed banks, shot up stores, etc.

You should be prepared to deal with all threats. Unfortunately that means preparing for the possibly of having to kill them. There are better ways to say what Pickpocket is saying but he is correct none the less. Any less by you will leave you vulnerable. The beauty is I do this also and nobody is the wiser.

bclark1
April 12, 2006, 02:22 PM
like the article capt. charlie. even though a good deal of it is (hopefully) common-sense, when something like that is well-articulated into writing, it becomes more of an active memory, which i've always felt helps people avoid allowing emotion to cloud their judgment in tense situations because they can then analyze it rather than feel it.

i feel terrible for the minority of people who have been victims of unfair profiling. but the statistics speak. the ACLU's successes fighting profiling and gang injunctions have often been accompanied by increases in murder and other violent crime. if you're a sheep, don't dress like a wolf, and if you want to emulate gangster culture for some foolish pop-culture value, you should expect to be treated accordingly.

pickpocket
April 12, 2006, 02:53 PM
That's troublesome advice, guy. Reconsider.
That's why I put in the disclaimer (which you left out of the quote) and the comment to dial it back a bit before applying to real life.
Do you walk into a restaraunt and look for all the exits?
Do you try to position seat so that face the door?
Do you try to note the positions of any LEO's in proximity to you?
Do you ask yourself: "what if THIS guy pulled a gun, what would I do?"

Then you're doing the same thing - I'm just using different words.

There's no chance on earth that I'd reconsider that advice - at least not for me. It's saved my life or put me far enough ahead of the curve enough times to make me a believer.

Of course, that also doesn't mean that I advocate people sitting around in their pantyhose using lipstick to write a list of names of the people that have ****** them off.

There are better ways to say what Pickpocket is saying but he is correct none the less. Any less by you will leave you vulnerable. The beauty is I do this also and nobody is the wiser.
Yeah, but coming straight to the point sure does illustrate the seriousness of it, don't you think? :) Doesn't help to sugar-coat some things.
Nobody is the wiser because you don't ACT like that's what you're thinking, so you obviously understand where I'm coming from.
It takes just as long to draw your weapon with a frown as it does with a smile, and nobody knows what's going on in your head unless you want them to - that's all I'm saying.

Wingbone
April 12, 2006, 02:53 PM
If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck...............

pickpocket
April 12, 2006, 02:59 PM
Then it MUST be a chicken. :)

bclark1
April 12, 2006, 03:18 PM
in the vein of the two above posts... they're both of greater utility to me after being shot and cooked ;) wonder how extensible that is to the broader situation..?

geronimo13
April 12, 2006, 03:56 PM
The problem with profiling is that an attitude developes that may or may not be a fair assessment. Young toughs full of swagger are not evil unless they perform evil actions. Intelligent criminals dress so as not to draw attention to themselves. As humans I always find it interesting that we feel our brains make us better than animals whereas animals usually act better than we humans towards others. I thought the movie "crash" did a good job of showing what false ideas of others leads to. Instinctually we protect our selves and walking with a martial arts awareness is good but to profile people is different. When will we get to know our neighbors and community better, instead of judging them? You have to walk in anothers shoes....

pickpocket
April 12, 2006, 04:14 PM
I think you're missing the point.

Nobody here is saying we should judge people by getting to know them. What we ARE saying is that certain actions will produce certain REACTIONS. If a kid swaggers in arrogance it's because he wants people to be afraid of him, or to think he's tough. To ignore that message and assume he is "not" a threat for fear of offending someone just flies in the face of common sense.

All people are potential threats until they prove themselves to NOT be a threat.
Don't get wrapped up in the terminology - "profiling" has been turned into this nasty, civil-rights abusing, freedom-revoking word. But you know what - we do it every day, even if unconsciously.

I don't have to walk in another's shoes to respect their differences. To say that someone MUST be a criminal because they're black is one thing, to have your spidey-senses turned up a notch because something about the way a person is acting doesn't seem right is entirely another - and THAT's the point of the discussion.

There are always going to be people who hold unfair prejudices against others. Call it what it is, though - rather than allow it to hide hehind a less-offensive word.

Skyguy
April 12, 2006, 05:40 PM
pickpocket,

There's situational awareness and then there's paranoia

Even "dialed back a tiny bit", I still don't think it's healthy to "THINK like everyone you meet wants to kill you".
Nor is it healthy to "Have a plan to kill everyone you meet".

You might want to reconsider that advice....because there are probably a few that visit here who might actually take it to heart.
.

pickpocket
April 12, 2006, 05:57 PM
Done; rather than get into an argument over nothing.

threegun
April 12, 2006, 06:00 PM
Pickpocket, I had no problem the way you said it believe me. I just understand how some people think, especially antigunners. They might interpret it as a psycho with a gun waiting to kill.

Blackwater OPS
April 12, 2006, 06:10 PM
Well, that went downhill and off topic quick.

A profile of a person by definition includes more than one attribute. If the only "profile" you can see is race, you are on the wrong path.

Good SA includes being aware of your possible responses to an attack by any person around you. This is particularly true for an LEO or anyone who carries a firearm openly. One of the responses must be deadly force in response to a deadly attack. This may be considered paranoia, but it is taught at every LE school I have heard of, and it saves lifes.

Things can get to seeming very routine while on the job, and relaxing can get you or someone else killed. I imagine this would apply, to a lessor extent, to anyone who carries openly.

garryc
April 12, 2006, 10:40 PM
Lets understand that The "GANGSTA GANG BANGER" wants you to feel fear. Wants you to be intimidated. You see, these gang bangers confuse fear with respect. They literally live in a dog pack mentality, strongest is Alpha Male which is maintained by violence or fear of violence.
As far as race is concerned, its irrelevant. Most people instinctively know when someone is up to no good. That’s not a race factor.

pickpocket
April 12, 2006, 10:45 PM
Pickpocket, I had no problem the way you said it believe me. I just understand how some people think, especially antigunners. They might interpret it as a psycho with a gun waiting to kill.

Point well taken, and duly noted.

threegun
April 14, 2006, 04:54 AM
Skyguy,

There's situational awareness and then there's paranoia


Paranoia is a mental disorder characterized by delusions of persecution. Pickpocket is just trying to tell you to be ready to defend yourself against anyone and everyone as even someone that looks okay can be trouble. He explained to all of us that his mindset came from the military (free of political correctness and sugar coatings). You are stuck on the harshness of the words instead of understanding the point. Here is PP's point as I gather it. Trouble can come from anyone at anytime be ready to protect yourself........DON'T BE CAUGHT OFF GUARD. Very simple to translate.

Sugar coating provided by threegun at no extra charge LOL.

Skyguy
April 14, 2006, 05:08 PM
Very simple to translate.
Spin it any way you like, guy....still seems like very bad advice, especially for some that visit here who might actually take it to heart.

Even "dialed back a tiny bit", I don't think it's healthy to "THINK like everyone you meet wants to kill you".

Nor is it healthy to "Have a plan to kill everyone you meet".
.

pickpocket
April 14, 2006, 05:39 PM
Get over it, man. If you didn't understand it, then the post wasn't for you to begin with.
Maybe I should consider changing my signature as well - lest I be responsible for someone repeating it out loud.

If you take it to heart and take it literally, then you were bound to run into that sooner or later and I doubt that my post was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Either way - Let's move on. The post has been edited and the ignorant and irresponsible have been duly protected from themselves.

Capt Charlie
April 14, 2006, 08:38 PM
This one needs to get back on topic folks ;) .

azurefly
April 18, 2006, 03:05 PM
Capt. Mike, there is nothing immoral, illegal, or unethical about going with your feelings about someone, particularly when being wrong could mean your life.

You were absolutely right in deciding to err on the side of safety. In the worst case, you might have just given offense (if they even were aware that you left because of them) -- and in that case, tough crap, because hey, if you don't want to be judged as though you are a potential danger to me, don't act and present yourself as mimicking exactly that kind of person. In the best case, you might have removed yourself and your son from a robbery scene in which bullets may have flown.

We can't afford to dance this b.s. dance about how "it's wrong to judge people based on their appearance." That's utter crap. There is no utility to treating everyone as though they are all undressed plastic mannequins going about their day, no different-looking, different-appearing, different-acting from anyone else. There ARE differences, and an adept, astute observer can often tell the difference between someone who poses an elevated threat level from someone who does not. Will I act less defensively around a 48-year-old guy in a business suit who is holding his 5-year-old daughter's hand at a restaurant than I would around three black guys in baggy clothes, with gold teeth, one ankle of their sweats high and one low, lolling around on all the seats, not staying in one place or appearing to have any business there, and talking loudly and brashly with each other, possibly making rude comments about other patrons? You bet your @$$. Who is going to say I am wrong for doing it? I should just pretend that the appearances and behaviors are equal to neutral? No. They have a justified influence on how I interpret the level of threat.

-azurefly

riverrat66
April 18, 2006, 05:36 PM
Will I act less defensively around a 48-year-old guy in a business suit who is holding his 5-year-old daughter's hand at a restaurant than I would around three black guys in baggy clothes, with gold teeth, one ankle of their sweats high and one low, lolling around on all the seats, not staying in one place or appearing to have any business there, and talking loudly and brashly with each other, possibly making rude comments about other patrons? You bet your @$$.
I agree 100% but those three black guys could be three white guys! I've seen white gang bangers who were just as nasty and dangerous as any blacks or Hispanics. I'm guilty of racial profiling just as many others are. It's human nature especially when you read about 9 out of 10 shooting being done by blacks. There was four murders in Buffalo, NY last week, one restaurant owner shot in cold blood after a robbery, one store clerk shot for no apparent reason after a robbery, one college student killed in cold blood and finally a Nun raped and murdered, all by black men.

The Saudis and other Middle Eastern counties were complaining about profiling after 9/11 but the hijackers were all from the Middle East so how can we as a country not suspect anyone from that part of the world especially in that age group. That's racial profiling at it's finest and it's done at every airport in the country.

These gang bangers wanna walk the walk and talk the talk, then they better be ready to accept the consequences.

garryc
April 18, 2006, 10:10 PM
Many people think of gangs as racially based. Actually, some of the most dangerous are area or "hood" based.

SrtDog
April 19, 2006, 12:22 AM
I run everyone.

The other day I went to a church at about noon for a person who locked herself out of her vehicle.

I showed up and met a white female, mid 20's, clean, dressed very conservative (blouse and dress down to her shoes). I talked to her for a few minutes, and she told me that she was a 2nd grade school teacher, and on sundays she teaches sunday school. Very articulate and well spoken person. I ran her and she had warrants for assault, burglary, possession of a c/s and distribution of a c/s. :eek:

Relying solely on race to find bgs is a horrible way of doing policing.

pickpocket
April 19, 2006, 01:04 AM
I don't think we're trying to say what's "good" policing and what's not.
That said, there are certainly going to be exceptions to the rule - your young lady was arguably one of those exceptions.

I made a point earlier in the thread that certain people work at projecting a certain "vibe" - and we would be idiots to ignore those signals. To me, that's what this whole thread is really about.

Chris Cullen
April 20, 2006, 11:46 PM
Very interesting topic. I find it more interesting to observe people's opinions from an international outsiders point of view. Fortunately in Australia, we do not live in constant fear of being shot by any group or minority. Yes we have shootings, but nothing that provokes our police to do vehicle road stops at gun point. The removal of a firearm from a holster over here is a lot of paper work and requires an explanation for your actions. Police have to have justification to draw their firearm... armed security officers like myself have to be pretty much shot before we are justified in drawing our firearms. Sad fact.
I profile people everyday in my job. My city is small enough that you get to know the regulars and their movements. Most people in Australia are intimdated by the open carriage of firearms by security officers. Its not a very common sight to most people and your actions have to be performed very carefully. In Australia, if I was to be seen by a person with my hand resting on my firearm, and that person did not feel comfortable with what they saw... I could be charged with assault and a breach of our Weapons Act. The reason - we are not to go armed in a public place and cause fear. It sounds strange I know because that action was not intentional to cause fear, but the concept that someone didn't like it caused a response.

When I look at people to profile them, I look for things that might be a threat to me. Example - something concealed within their hands, or hands in their pockets or watching them watching my movements. I maintain that I establish eye contact with every person in the room. It might be only a split second. Its all to do with letting people know that I've seen them.
I don't become complacent with performing my job. The threat is always there, but I can't live everyday thinking that if someone looks at me differently, that person is going to attack me. I get heaps of people that look at me differently and draw my attention to them. I assess the situation by observing their movements and eliminate the possibilities of a threat occuring.
Its ok to be unsure of something. The best advice if you are encountered by a this:
Create distance.
Know your escape route.
Remember the offender.
Find your options.
Protect yourself.

You can never fire and forget.

Chris Cullen

razorburn
April 21, 2006, 01:53 AM
But what do you know is a rule? I don't know many dangerous criminals, do you? How are you supposed to see what the "typical" felon looks like? Unless you're an experienced LEO, or otherwise see a lot of these criminals on a regular basis, your gut feeling is just what makes you uncomfortable-usually just what you don't know.

18DAI
April 21, 2006, 07:41 AM
SrtDog - +1 . In God we trust ,all others get NCIC. Regards 18DAI.

DWARREN123
April 21, 2006, 03:55 PM
Just like defensive driving, think about what the other person/persons will do.

Mike in VA
April 21, 2006, 07:43 PM
So, like, I'm sitting in a restraunt and there's a bunch of loud, obnoxious gangsta-types over there, and there's a bunch of loud, obnoxious preppie-types over there. Guess which ones I'm going to watch more closely? Either group may be capable of doing something stupid, dangerous, and/or violent, but I know how to bet.

Discrimination - from the Latin discrimino, "to know the difference". Discrimination based on prejudice, i.e. lack of specific knowledge, or superficial generalities, is morally & ethically wrong. However, discrimiantion based on knowledge and experience is sound practice, and may, in fact, be part of a moral duty to protect yourself and your loved ones.

Defensive driving - good analogy - assume they're all idiots -- that way you'll never be disappointed, but occasionally pleasantly suprised.

riverrat66
April 21, 2006, 10:24 PM
Defensive driving - good analogy
+ 1 for DWARREN123
I like that BUT Defensive driving isn't illegal. Not that it would stop me from doing that or racial profiling. So like Mike in VA said, "Guess which ones I'm going to watch more closely?" Boy if that ain't a no-brainier. Does that make me a bad person?

BigFunWMU
April 22, 2006, 09:09 AM
Profiling is not a race thing, it is a collection of obsevations based on the appearance and actions of a person or group. Then based on those obsevations, deciding if the person or group seems to present a problem/threat. The media seems to have tied race to profiling, and that just is not true. There is behavior profiling, and racism; they aren't the same.

Things like:
Are they loud/rowdy
Is their clothing in good repair
Are they well groomed
Body posture/language
Are they courteous to others nearby
Does the person make eye contact
Does something just not fit


Anybody wearing gang colors and acting "ghetto" -->(stupid) is going to get a hard look, and perhaps more; no matter what color their skin is.


It is a first impression broadcast to the whole world based only on you showing up. Does yours say what you would like it to?

riverrat66
April 22, 2006, 01:50 PM
Profiling is not a race thing, it is a collection of observations based on the appearance and actions of a person or group.
You are correct but who are we kidding? More likely then not it does TURN INTO a race thing. Anyone who says differently just isn't being honest with themselves.

BigFunWMU
April 22, 2006, 02:05 PM
Of course race is sometimes used. It is should never be the only thing, and very rarely the primary one.

Sarge
April 22, 2006, 02:27 PM
To hell with political correctness. You process whatever information is available to you to evaluate a threat. If the Islamowhacks are causing problems, I'm not gonna jack up little old white ladies and frisk them. Same goes for any other group that is known for TROUBLE.

You can bet your life, quite literally, that the threat will use every advantage at their disposal. They are profiling YOU, looking for an easy victim. You had better use every means at your disposal to make sure that they don't succeed.

This about survival, not some feel-good sociological fertilizer. The stakes are the same as they were in 600 BC, regardless of what is PC at this particular moment in history. Predators live by the law of the jungle. You do not ingore the tiger's stripes while walking that jungle, unless you want to become tiger scat.

oldbillthundercheif
April 22, 2006, 06:09 PM
I understand everyone here's concerns about tough-looking dudes, but I think I can add a few things to this discussion. After leaving the Navy, I spent a few years working in the music business (it's a long story...). Mostly with rap artists. I can tell you for sure that most of the guys you see on the street looking intimidating only look and dress that way because it's part of their culture to wear this "uniform". Most of them don't sell drugs or rob and kill, like you would think from the way they carry themselves. The next time you are grilling in the yard and a bunch of them walk past, instead of giving them nasty looks, ask them if they want a burger or something. Most of them are good folks who respond to kindness the same way anybody else would. I'm not saying you shouldnt be pepared for any situation at any time from any angle, but rather that it's good to make friends with these people. Especially if you share a neighborhood with them.

oldbillthundercheif
April 26, 2006, 06:55 PM
Well, I guess nobody thinks of these things as I do, eh? I expected at least one person to agree that it's a good idea to make friends with your neighbors. I guess everyone here would rather cower in fear or shoot nasty looks at people who, for all you know, may be just like you. Y'all better stay in the backwoods and suburbs because these attitudes are incompatable with modern urban society. It's easier to hate your neighbor when he lives miles away, rather than across the hall.
Go ahead and look at the random dude on the street like you think he's some sort of animal... Guess who's house he's going to visit next if he is a criminal? Yours! Would you rather make friends or become a target? The choice is yours.

razorburn
April 26, 2006, 07:37 PM
I agree. I think nobody has anything to say, because everyone's waiting for a response? I live in a college town, half of us look like what they're scared of. If I'm walking down a street here late friday night, at 3 AM and see a group of 6 black/mexican/whatever guys walking down the street dressed in chains, drunk, racuously laughing, shouting at passing cars and waving around a bottle of rum, I'm probably be happy, since I've got a better chance to get a free drink then worried about getting in trouble. Heck, at 3am on a weekend night, I'll probably be drunk too. I practically see no need for my gun here, but I have it for fun. My neighbor across the hall's spent time in jail. I don't know what for, fighting at least. He's not allowed to own a gun. He sells marijiuana. One of the nicest guys I know. He's working to get his degree, working with special ed kids. I go there to borrow stuff all the time, we go partying and picking up girls on weekends. I was squeaky clean before I came here. Live in a well-off suburbs of a major city, right up against the coast, overlooking the ocean. Every house cost over $500,000, and crime's almost nonexistant. Christian parents. I would've reacted the same way as most of the people, and maybe still would over there. But living here's changed my mind a bit about appearances.

riverrat66
April 26, 2006, 10:36 PM
oldbillthundercheif & razorburn,
I can respond and do so truthfully. I don't avoid minorities or gang banger looking dudes. I speak to all sorts of people but I DO know which people to avoid. I just happen to own a very nice Ford Powerstroke Diesel 4x4 with all kinds of modifications on it and it's sort of a show truck and I get all kinds of comments on it especially from the younger crowd including some pretty seedy characters. But I talk to all of them and indulge in some pretty good conversations but like I said I know which ones to avoid, you know maybe the ones who might be interested in stealing the truck not just looking at it, after all I've got over $50000 invested in it. I encourage the guys to check out the club for Ford diesels (Western New York Powerstroke Association) I started about 3 years ago www.wnypa.org and tell them to come to one of our events. Who knows maybe someday they'll own a Ford Powerstroke. It's not much but it's my little contribution to help and get to know my "neighbors".

Skyguy
April 27, 2006, 04:00 PM
Hey, old bill.

Just curious.

Is it supposed to be thunder 'chief' or thunder 'chef'.....or is it really thunder 'cheif'?
.

SonOfLiberty
April 28, 2006, 10:19 AM
Getting to know your neighbors, and being friendly can backfire too (even in a "good" neighborhood.) Back in high school I became buddies with a neighbor. We went fishing together, played ball, etc. Couple months later playing video games one night at my house, the punk went to the bathroom, grabbed my mother's purse on the way, and took every last penny out of it (literally). The kid was very polite, well groomed, and cunning. I don't doubt it was his intention all along, we're just lucky he didn't get away with anything else. Evil comes in all shapes and sizes. No matter how hard you prepare, train, etc. sometimes the odds are just against you. You can't prevent everything, but you can certainly limit your liabilities and exposure.

oldbillthundercheif
April 28, 2006, 04:44 PM
Thundercheif (one word). As in the F-105 Thundercheif. I never piled up as many hours in that fine aircraft as I would have liked, but I trained on one way back in the old days. It was sort of a fluke that I ever got to fly one in the first place. I wonder what they go for on the surplus market?

jburtonpdx
April 29, 2006, 06:33 AM
There's situational awareness and then there's paranoia

Its only paranoia if 2 additional circumstances are met - or one specific condition occurs
1. other people know you are doing it
and
2. nothing happens

If something happens, it wont be paranoia, it will be preperation, if nobody notices your "preperation" then its not a problem.

The one specific condition it would be paranoia is if it is restricting your life. Such as, you wont go out of your house. Then its starting to qualify as an illness...

pickpocket
April 29, 2006, 05:05 PM
That post seemed just a little TOO well-thought-out :D

Trisha
May 1, 2006, 07:31 AM
If I recall, to paraphrase Samuel Clemens, "To say that clothes do not make the man is utter nonsense! No naked man since Adam has had any worthwhile impact on society!"

And then a comment from G. B. Trudeau (also paraphrased), "Are you judged by how you dress? Certainly! If you walked into the boardroom of a Fortune 500 corporation wearing the attire of a Hamas terrorist you would have no justification whatsoever in feeling outrage at the immediate and clearly biased reactions you would receive!"

Clearly, then, we must anticipate the reverse is also true, as Friday, from the Addams Family answered, when questioned about her aparrent lack of a costume; "I'm a homicidal maniac. I look just like everyone else!"

I have a sociological baseline of living in near seclusion in the mountains. When venturing out and going even to the flats and Denver, I find I recognize clear behavioral patterns of predator and prey amidst the egoconcentric and often vapid horde. It's cause for cautious and oblique, unobtrusive curiosity.

Absolutely, I profile.

I am not dinner.

Trisha

GUNSMOKE45441
May 1, 2006, 08:55 AM
Trisha
Well said!!!!

Model520Fan
May 2, 2006, 03:14 PM
While I have no problem with "profiling," including profiling which has race as a major factor (but certainly not a sole factor), I would like to point out that just because some Black adolescents (or "Hispanic," if that fits the stereotype in your neighborhood) are dressed like young criminals, it does not necessarily mean that they ARE young criminals. Sometimes fashions of dress among high-school kids follow the criminal element even though the behavior doesn't. Where I live, far more high-school kids wear ill-fitting jailbird clothing than could possibly be criminal. It's just a stupid kid thing; they'll grow out of it.

Prejudices are an important tool, but don't let them distract you from Pickpocket's mental exercise.

RoSAR1
May 2, 2006, 06:00 PM
You have serious problems if you un-holster your weapon everytime you're around someone with baggy pants. Give me a break, this isn't 1940. I dunno if you've realized it or not, but times change.

Superhornet
May 3, 2006, 07:14 AM
The basis of profile is developed from statistical averages of who commits specific unlawful activity based on the inclusion of their percentile of population. Does it come down to race or ethnic profiles ?? Of course it does, because race is normally used to develop the percentile.

RoSAR1
May 3, 2006, 09:50 AM
Crime is an economic issue, not a racial one. People in the lowest income brackets will commit more crime, regardless of their race.

NJDAG
May 3, 2006, 12:19 PM
I've been on the job in NJ (the "home" of profiing) on a Gang Task Force for about 6 years, and this is my take on the thread from my perspective. People are products of their environment, and to say that economic factors are not directly related to crime statistics would be an ignorant statement to make. To say that someone, by virtue of being black or hispanic is more likely to commit crime solely because of their genetic makeup is again an ignorant statement. However, race plays a larger factor than income (at least in my experience) in one's propensity to become a criminal. To substantiate that statement, think of it this way.... look at the role models that the blacks and hispanics look up to.... Tupac, 50 Cent, and the rest of those POS Gangster rappers. Do any of them offer anything more positive than the G's Up, Hoes Down, Shoot 'em all lifestyle? No. The glorification of crime and violence, particularly in regards to drugs and gangs and the associated lifestyle are what these adolescents are looking up to and, essentially, emulating. That is a conscious decision that is made, independent of income. Rap albums aren't cheaper than country albums, so economics play no role in the determination.

IMHO, economic factors, though existent, are far outweighed by other factors that are controllable, and arrived at through a conscious decision on the part of the criminal. Basically, you choose the criminal life, it doesn't choose you. And if blacks and hispanics, for instance, choose it more often than whites, oh well.

Superhornet
May 3, 2006, 12:22 PM
roSAR1----explain to me that crime is an economic thing??

RoSAR1
May 3, 2006, 03:02 PM
Crime is an econonmic issue. Statistically, poor people will commit more crimes. Blacks and other minorities tend to be in the lower income bracket, hence why they commit more crimes per capita. It has nothing to do with race. Poor white people commit just as many crimes. Hence the phrase, crime is an economic issue, not a racial one.

Sarge
May 3, 2006, 05:04 PM
Crime is an econonmic issue...

Horse manure. Crime is an ethics issue. There are a good many of us who grew up in the lower income brackets- and did not choose a life of crime. Sell that song & dance somewhere else.

riverrat66
May 3, 2006, 05:16 PM
Crime is an ethics issue.
I agree 100%

Crime is an econonmic issue
That's total BS! When I grew up I didn't have a pot to **** in or a window to throw it out of!

RoSAR1
May 3, 2006, 05:46 PM
Horse manure. Crime is an ethics issue. There are a good many of us who grew up in the lower income brackets- and did not choose a life of crime. Sell that song & dance somewhere else.

No offense, but you're an idiot. I certainly hope you don't have a degree from any university with that kind of logic.

1. Based on your logic, since I'm white, and I don't have a felonly, that would mean that no other white people have felonies. It's the same thing. You said that you grew up poor, and you didn't choose a life of crime, so that means nobody else did either:rolleyes:

2. It's proven statistically, again-proven statistically, that people who are in the lowest income bracket commit more crimes. Is this really that hard to understand people? Scrap your G.E.D and go get a real education.

RoSAR1
May 3, 2006, 05:52 PM
That's total BS! When I grew up I didn't have a pot to **** in or a window to throw it out of!

Um what's your point? You're 1 person out of almost 300 million in this country. See my above post. It doesn't matter what you choose to do. When you average out all the people in each income segment the lowest income bracket commits more crime. You do realize that you're only 1 person, don't you? And what you do is a miniscule percentage of a total, right? I swear, you would think that anyone who has been through 4th grade math could figure this out, but maybe not.

Sarge
May 3, 2006, 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by invssgt
Horse manure. Crime is an ethics issue. There are a good many of us who grew up in the lower income brackets- and did not choose a life of crime. Sell that song & dance somewhere else.


No offense, but you're an idiot. I certainly hope you don't have a degree from any university with that kind of logic.

Scrap your G.E.D and go get a real education.

"No offense"- no problem, Pal. I challenged your statement, and you turned it into a personal attack. Nothing I could call you would be better than what you have shown yourself to be.

Logic hurts, don't it? So does the truth, particularly when it entails choices/consequences. Neither of these get much traction in liberal academia, but that's OK with me.

By the way, I wasn't trying to bring you around to my way of thinking.

1. Based on your logic, since I'm white, and I don't have a felonly, that would mean that no other white people have felonies. It's the same thing. You said that you grew up poor, and you didn't choose a life of crime, so that means nobody else did either

I certainly hope you don't have a degree from any university with that kind of spelling, either.

2. It's proven statistically, again-proven statistically, that people who are in the lowest income bracket commit more crimes. Is this really that hard to understand people?

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. So how does your theory account for white collar crime? How about high-rolling sports stars and music celebrities that engage in criminal activity, or kill each other off in droves? It can't, because each of those people, regardless of their upbringing, race or financial status, made a conscious chopice to engage in activity that they knew was wrong- and also happened to be illegal. Ethics, or the lack thereof, decides the issue.

RoSAR1
May 3, 2006, 09:04 PM
Oh, wow, I made a typo which must mean I don't really know how to spell the word correctly:rolleyes:

White collar crime is very different from the crime I'm talking about. Again, people of all races and incomes commit crimes, OBVIOUSLY. You don't need to point that out. However, I hate repeating myself, poor people commit more crimes per capita.

Capt Charlie
May 3, 2006, 09:56 PM
*sigh*

I guess I should be happy that this thread lasted longer than I really thought it would, but the personal attacks took the wind out of that sail.

RoSAR1, I realize you're new here, so here's a little tip: "You're an idiot" = personal attack. Please..... don't. We only say "please" once.

Closed.