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Glenn E. Meyer
March 21, 2006, 04:19 PM
You are at the mall. All of a sudden, you hear gun fire and looking down the length of the mall, you see a bunch of evil doers shooting random shoppers with AR-15s.

You are armed with a legit hi-cap semi auto handgun and an extra mag.

Thus, you turn at run your butt into Mervyn's and out the door.

As you get into the parking lot and move towards your car, you see a guy, open his trunk and take out an long arm and start to run towards the mall.

What do you do?

LICCW
March 21, 2006, 04:30 PM
Well, I either,
1) Get in my car, dial 911 on my cell, give all the info I can ,and leave.
OR
2) I dash to the nearest telephone booth, enter, spin round at the speed of light and emerge as the Man of Steel, re-enter the mall, twist the guns of the evildoers into pretzels, make sure little Sarah and her dog are safe, then fly out of the mall making back to my job at the Daily Planet before my lunch break is over.

Seriously, I'd just do the first. I'm kidding about the Man of Steel thing.

SW_fan
March 21, 2006, 04:37 PM
Call 911 for sure.

If the guy in the lot points his weapon at me, I'm shooting (then hauling ass outa there while calling the cops) But no way am I trying to take on multiple BGs with assault rifles.

threegun
March 21, 2006, 04:40 PM
He could be a goodguy trying to help and so far hasn't shot at anyone so I would hide behind cover and finish my getaway once he is out of view and it is safe.

NBT
March 21, 2006, 04:47 PM
Sounds the the North Hollywood shootout, but why would they be at the mall?

Don't try to play hero with your puny sidearm against atleast 3 guys with assault rifles. Who knows if the guy in the parking lot is one of them, he might be an undercover cop. Best thing to do is RUN :eek:

ChrisJ
March 21, 2006, 05:01 PM
Man, don't you watch 24? The AR-15 wielding evil doers are plain clothes counter terror agents, the "random" shoppers are Al Qaeda members with nerve gas in their shopping bags. Well it could happen right? Maybe not but regardless its not my fight unless they start targeting children or people I personally know. I'd get out of Dodge and call the cops.

- Chris

Doug.38PR
March 21, 2006, 05:52 PM
1) Lay low and keep my eye on him noting is appearance and the way he carries himself. Subtly following him back into the mall at a distance and see who he starts shooting at. If he shoots at the terrorists, I might just help him out. If he starts shooting at people and is just another terrorist, I put a 9mm hydrashok in his back.

2) Whether he is a friend and not a foe, I call the police and let them know what is going on if I have a moment of cover, where we are, who we are and our intentions.

3) Pray to God his will be done.

rapier144
March 21, 2006, 05:52 PM
If the guy with the long arm in the parking lot wasn't pointing the long arm at me i would tell him good luck stupid. And get the hell out of dodge.

springmom
March 21, 2006, 05:55 PM
...and that's when I'd use it.

Springmom

Edward429451
March 21, 2006, 06:06 PM
Go ahead and leave. Call it in to 911 so at least they have some info.

Whether it's BG's in the mall or not, or a BG in the parking lot or not a lone man with a pistol prolly wouldn't be of much help. If they're cops responding to something, a pistol wouldn't help and approaching him would just hinder and distract him/them and him being all keyed up is not a good time to approach him for anything.

atlctyslkr
March 21, 2006, 06:09 PM
I know a couple of cops who have wet dreams about stuff like this. I'd call 911 and then call them and tell them where the action was. I'd then go home and flip on the TV and watch it play out.

BonnieBlue
March 21, 2006, 06:14 PM
You are at the mall. All of a sudden, you hear gun fire and looking down the length of the mall, you see a bunch of evil doers shooting random shoppers with AR-15s.

You are armed with a legit hi-cap semi auto handgun and an extra mag.

My handgun against AR-15s sounds like the Battle of Samar Island--bad odds.
SOOO, I try to stay out of their sight and call 911---If I don't have it (my cell)with me or can't get coverage, I look around and see if I can get help(surely I'm not the only one in the place) If it comes down to the bottom line and one approaches me, I shoot him, assuming my hand isn't shaking too much. The truth is, I probably really wouldn't know what to do until such an event happened to me.

Dust_Devil
March 21, 2006, 06:32 PM
I agree that it would depend that I would have to be there and experience the moment before I could say what I would do.

Can I get out of the mall and call 911 without being seen and shot by the bad guys. I probably would. But then, if I'm in a position where I am cool and collected enough and enough positive andrenaline in me to get a well aimed shot at one of the bad guys or all of the bad guys, then I may just end up doing that.

I would just want to be careful to identify who's an actual bad guy and who's an armed bystander with a weapon such as a rifle that he's getting from his vehicle in the parking lot.

threegun
March 21, 2006, 06:42 PM
Add some flavor to the original scenario. What do you do if this goes down and your wife and child are at the other end of the mall?

PSUGolfPro
March 21, 2006, 07:08 PM
With being a "new" handgun owner...first of all pray and hope God's will is done, if its my day, its my day....

First off, call 911 and let them know whats going on

#1. Hide if at all possible from the guy entering from his car, and leave

I think if I have had experience and comfertable level

#2. Make myself present to him, I guess its taking a chance really, hoping he is a good guy going to help, but if he wasnt, possibly id "flash" the presence of what Im carrying and see if that changes his mind, thats if he hasnt fired shots already or began to....from there I do what I can...self defense as long as he fires first? I dunno about this stuff with it all being new to me...probably shoot to wound?

riverrat66
March 21, 2006, 07:27 PM
First thing I'm doing is looking for Doug.38PR because he's the guy who wants to carry a AR-15 in his car for backup.
I'd assess the situation and try to make my decision accordingly. How many shooters are there? Two, three or six? Maybe it would be suicide to involve yourself at all.
But if like threegun adds, "my wife and child are at the other end of the mall" then that changes everything.

I gotta check out the guy with the rifle running toward the mall. Maybe he's a "friendly", if not I'm capping him and taking his rifle because chances are I'm gonna die anyway trying to rescue my family.

Ya know, sometimes it's just your day to die.

If at all possible I'd try re-enter the mall at another entrance closer to the BG's. All I would need to do is clip one of them and hopefully get his weapon and then I have a fighting chance.

By then the cops would probably show up and shoot me thinking I was one of the BG's. :eek: This is a no win situation.

axslingerW
March 21, 2006, 08:34 PM
I'd get in a good weaver stance, have my "mall ninja" wife cover me and...

oh, wait. You were serious? I'd run like hell! call 911 from the car.

Ichiro
March 21, 2006, 08:35 PM
First, I clear my weapon and keep it in my hand.
Second, I attempt to get the hell out of there without being seen.
Third, assuming I got out of there, I have my wife call 911 on the cell and report what the hell is going on.

Then, I consider buying an AR and keeping it in my trunk.

~Ichiro

riverrat66
March 21, 2006, 09:12 PM
You were serious? I'd run like hell! call 911 from the car.
Did you read this part where threegun added:

"Add some flavor to the original scenario. What do you do if this goes down and your wife and child are at the other end of the mall?"

Do you still run like hell? Haven't you ever left your wife in the mall and told her "I'll meet you at the other end in an hour"? All of a sudden it's a little more complicated, huh?

Getting back to the original scenario, with my family not present in the mall I would probably retreat and take up a position somewhere that I might get a shot at one of the BG's. This probably sounds crazy but then I've been called crazy more then once.

Topthis
March 21, 2006, 09:13 PM
Gun drawn...running like a Olympic trackstar to the safest place, so that I can call 911. Guy pulling the rifle out of his trunk and pull all day long as far as I am concerned, if he starts to point the thing at me, then that is another story. Again, it is too high a price to pay for trying to be a Hero on the 6 o'clock news. What would happen if you shot and accidently killed an innocent? A child perhaps? Could you live with that? How would the community and the News and the Law react to the fact that you could have run away, but you chose to try to be a Hero and killed an innocent?

axslingerW
March 21, 2006, 09:33 PM
Haven't you ever left your wife in the mall and told her "I'll meet you at the other end in an hour"? All of a sudden it's a little more complicated, huh?

No. We stay together, and we only go to the mall if we can't get what we need/want elsewhere. And even then we don't go to the one closest to our house due to the "gangstas" hanging out there all the time. My comment was meant to be funny, but the safety of my family is no joke. It is why my wife (a former gun hater), and I have our CCW's, and my family ALWAYS stays together at the mall, amusement park, grocery store, etc.

9mm_prn
March 21, 2006, 09:41 PM
Yep, 1st call goes to the wife who is probably busy trying to buy out the scrapbook store at the other end of the mall. After I know she has exited through the back door of "Scrap-n-Crap" I'd seriously consider getting the AK out of the rig and going back to re-assess the situation (esp. if the guy headed back into the mall wasn't one of the BG's). Right or wrong I have had the misfortune of being a witness to 2 shootings and don't think I could leave those people to get mowed down by scum.

Bigfatts
March 21, 2006, 10:30 PM
The mall closest to my house is in a very bad neighborhood. I too have been witness to a shoot-out, between PD and a gang. I have been present for 2 gang wars and also have seen a security guard beaten by a rather large shoplifter:eek: . Being such a pleasant place it is almost always crawling with local PD, plainclothes and uniform as well as a few on bicycles. It would probably mean my demise to get involved so unless my wife-who would also be armed-were at the other end of the mall or I somehow find myself in the thick of things, I would have to retreat and call 911, unless there were unattended children in the middle of it or something. I am level-headed and no coward, but I am no John Wayne either.

Trip20
March 21, 2006, 11:18 PM
Glenn, you're getting as bad as Doug. ;)

Model520Fan
March 22, 2006, 05:13 AM
Glenn, this is a great post. Simple, but great. We need to have these posted every once in a while.

520

Glock 31
March 22, 2006, 05:28 AM
Pull out my gun, rack a round if it's not already ready to go, and take as many with me as I can. If i'm lucky i'll come out of it with having saved lives. If not, I just smile as I bleed to death knowing that at least i'll die with a good deed on my record.:cool:

...my life is boring, I think about noble deaths and selfless sacrifice everyday. I don't really have anything else to think about anyway.

threegun
March 22, 2006, 06:05 AM
Scenario posts while hated by many (including Glenn I thought) are fun and sometimes educational.

If my wife and child were at the other end and cellphone contact couldn't be made to insure their safety, I would have no choice but to engage the badguys. I would use cover and try to get whichever if any were by themselves. If successful I would get their longgun and finish the others. Odds are I would be dead in the end but better to be dead than to live with my family being killed.

T_man357
March 22, 2006, 06:54 AM
I get 911 on the cell immediatley and look for an option to try and save some lives (Probably race up the escalator) and gain the high ground to take out as many as my 28 bullets (two 14 round mags) will allow me...I know this probably won't be the most popular anwser but the way my mind works is that could easily be my Mom or Wife or anyone in my family the sick bastards are shooting...And if you're carrying the possibility exists for you to make a difference...And as far as concern for myself of course it's there but you have MANY outs in a mall. Hell even if I was to stand out of sight and shoot straight up into the air that could quite possibly be enough to draw their attention away long enough for some people to get away..And if as I'm on my way out I see the long gun and I got any rounds left..He catches one too.

I would never try to stop a robbery or anything where no one is being hurt...But if people are being killed and you're at no tactical disadvantage(And I don't think being unseen by BG's with AR-15's is a disadvantage) I don't think I could just run away knowing innocent people are being murdered.
Why the hell am I carrying if I can't protect myself or help someone who can't help themselves....Just my .02 like I said I don't expect it to be a popular anwser but it's honest.

threegun
March 22, 2006, 07:02 AM
TM357,

But if people are being killed and you're at no tactical disadvantage I don't think I could just run away knowing innocent people are being murdered

I'm not being a smarty pants but a handgun vs several ar-15 is a tactical disadvantage from the get go.

I do feel your compassion.

T_man357
March 22, 2006, 07:04 AM
I think it's a disadvantage if you're seen...But not visible till after I fire I would try to intervene (Despite what would more than likely be serious consquences)

Glenn E. Meyer
March 22, 2006, 10:29 AM
Grasshoppers, you are forgetting the subtle nature of the scenario.

If my family were in the mall, I'm not running out of Mervyn's and leaving the scene. What I actually do has too many branches at that point for a sure answer.

However, I have you outside seeing the AR dude.

If my family were at home, I watch AR dude run into the mall and then I am out of there.

The question is do you:

1. Flee - always a wise option but unleashes the great moral and/or I want to be hero debate. Altruism is complex.

2. Challenge AR dude and find out it is Doug. You may then say Adios to Doug flee or you might join his posse and CHARGE!

3. You might just immediately shoot AR dude - thus,
a. YOU KILLED DOUG - oops! Doug, have you left documentation so that your family, doesn't sue anybody who shoots you due to mistaken identity when you unlimber your AR in an urban fire fight?
b. You killed a terrorist - thus you are a hero.

Given the multicultural nature of society, if we all had ARs in the car and ran into the mall, there is no clear way to identify terrorists unless they are wearing signs. Quite the gun fight, wouldn't be?

Seriously, I see it as:

1. By yourself - flee and fight if you must to save yourself.
2. If family are there - try to get to them. One might avoid even obvious targets to get to them. Fight then if you must.

Hey, Delta Dave - nice seeing you yesterday - reading this one?

threegun
March 22, 2006, 11:06 AM
I can't stand the mall so when forced to go shopping by the lovely Mrs. Threegun, I sit while she walks. After I answered the question that you posed, I started thinking heck if I'm in the mall mamas somewhere in there with our boys. Pretty spooky. It would be spooky even if I had my AR much less a stinkin handgun.

PATH
March 22, 2006, 12:30 PM
Discretion is the better part of valor. Retreat if at all possible. Call 911 and tell them to send the cavalry. You do not have backup. You may be seen as a perp to responding officers. Fight like hell if you need to protect yourself or family and possibly others.

PinnedAndRecessed
March 22, 2006, 05:35 PM
Or, C: I'm not there since I never shop at the mall. I just drive the two blocks to my local super Walmart.

:D

Anthony2
March 22, 2006, 09:25 PM
Then it would require an armed response from me...

Is there any chance I will give a warning?

In this particular situation?

No, I would not...this to me would just be incentive for the BG's to find a new target... ME!

I think I would not be able to live with myself knowing I could have potentially saved a life of another and didn't....

This is MY personal view and IS NOT INTENDED TO OFFEND anyone...

I just beleive if fate finds you in a position to help another you should...

RobRocket
March 23, 2006, 04:57 AM
First thought would be find cover, if you ever spent time with an AR it is deadly accurate at the length of a mall and depending on what your carrying the chances of you getting off a clean shot at that distance and a hit is not as good as the guy nailing you with the AR. I don't think I would be running inside with a hand gun to address 1 more more guys with AR's

Depending on the situation I would probably address the guy in the parking lot.

glk40
March 23, 2006, 05:30 AM
If my wife and child were in the mall...

Then it would require an armed response from me...

other than that...

1. Run

2. Run fast

3. Run fast, and hide

Dont try to be a hero in a situation that would lead to your death, unless you're putting it all on the line for your family or loved ones.

HangFire83
March 23, 2006, 09:16 AM
1. Run

2. Run fast

3. Run fast, and hide

Quick...think like a Mannequin.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 23, 2006, 10:48 AM
How do we address Doug vs. Looney Terrorist in the parking lot?

Do you yell:

Don't Move - Now are you a terrorist?

Why of course not, I am a loyal American (with an accent). Let's go in together. You go first (bang, bang, bang).

Now brave Doug sees you and hears your challenge. What does he do? Doug is charging in to save the world and you are challenging him. In the fog of battle, does Doug AR you tush into the dirt, ooopps!

This might be flame bait, but the literature is fairly clear that caucasian folks tend to overestimate the danger from minority folks. There are quite a few articles after the Diallo incident showing this. If you were a minority, I would opine that you are at significant risk if you try to intervene from the AR parking lot crowd. If you are part of the AR parking lot crowd, to you consider that your initial evaluation of someone else who might be wanting to intervene is subject to bias?

I was trying to focus on the specific interaction of interventionists as well as the issue of the overall strategy. In a FOF exercise, we had a team and then we were joined by a bystander good guy - confusing for a sec.

BTW, this again points out why FOF is quite different from matches or videos.

riverrat66
March 23, 2006, 11:47 AM
Glenn,
I only replied to this particular scenario because it's not really that far fetched. But let me say this before this thread gets shut down because I think it has run it's course.

I'm sure someone besides you has seen what's going on and has already called 911 and they are probably already on there way. Now if like threegun has added to the mix, my family were in that mall, there is no way on God's green earth that I'm NOT going back in there to find them. I will find a way inside and make an attempt to rescue them even if it costs me my life.

Riverrat66

Glenn E. Meyer
March 23, 2006, 11:59 AM
Well, I was being a touch silly.

The real points were that:

1. The best strategy is to get out of Dodge, if one takes a realistic view of saving just oneself.

2. If the family is there - I think we all agree that we need to get to them. That probably means avoiding the shooters if one can. Proactive engagement at a distance from the family is not going to help them if they are in another part.

3. If you see another armed individual, that person is an unknown quality. I would avoid such when fleeing or going back to the family.

I've heard presentation by terrorist experts who have wondered why if we don't have significant terrorist cells in the USA, we haven't seen such mall or other crowded area attacks. They certainly have been done in Europe and Israel.

The arguments are not that the terrorists fear the CCW type but more on the strategy of incident impact and that such attacks don't serve their interests.

Lott argues that rampage shootings have decreased because of CHL. I'm not so sure. The numbers are small and statistical significance is weak. We have no evidence from rampage shooters or prospective shooters that they considered CHLs. However, how would one get such data?

Shooting incidents in Israel seem to have diminished due to armed populace issues, though.

Some anecdotal points:

The guy who shot up the Jewish Day Care in California avoided another school as it had an armed guard (not a CHL worry).

Two rampage shootings didn't go well for recent CHL types - Texas courthouse and Mall guys. First was killed, second froze and was shot.

However, these are so small in numbers to be meaningless. We don't know if the shooters considered CHLs. Texas guy had armor but that was probably for the cops.

This probably has run its course.

Page3
March 23, 2006, 01:47 PM
First, I’d have to recon and ascertain the situation. Then call 911 – let them know what I’ve ascertained. Then phone my wife on her cell and find out what her situation is, if she is clear, I’d have her take cover. THEN, IF people are in fact being killed at random, I’d go to my car; get my .44 Super Blackhawk & my Browning 92B .44MAG, return to the mall, find good cover and take out the BG’s.
Sorry if this sounds like too much, and it may not be the right answer; BUT (as much as I would hate to take a human life) I can’t with all good conscience let civilians die when I have the skills, equipment & ability to do different. An American is one who defends the defenseless.
Robert

threegun
March 23, 2006, 02:02 PM
Glenn,
BTW, this again points out why FOF is quite different from matches or videos.

FoF is gonna help you hide from multiple ar-15 armed attackers while looking for your family in the mall? You practice sneaking around multiple bad guy's with rifles in FoF? You yourself have seen the futility in going against multiple attackers? This experience of getting "hosed" helped you how? Are the next multiple attackers you face are somehow doomed now that you have this experience? I think the outcome will be the same. You and I both will probably get "hosed" by multiple attackers, so FoF is not a magic mojo. Besides its gonna take allot of money to cover every scenario and keep proficient at it. In no way do I believe that competition will overcome overwhelming odds but neither will FoF. Again I do agree that FoF is good if you can afford it.

Shooting incidents in Israel seem to have diminished due to armed populace issues, though.


Being armed does prevent crime. Same as good outdoor lighting and alarm systems reduce the number of breakins. I don't think it stops wack jobs from going on rampages though.

Being armed has prevented the pawnshop that I manage from being robbed for over 20 years. I know this because the 2 shops within 5 blocks of ours get regular visits from robbers to the tune of 3plus each per year. They both have the same money and gold as ours. They have 5 employees and we have only 3 on duty daily. They close at 7PM and we close at 9PM. We use to open till midnight. We have never been robbed but every employee openly carries a sidearm. That is the only difference.

riverrat66
March 23, 2006, 02:36 PM
We have never been robbed but every employee openly carries a sidearm. That is the only difference.

That is not the difference, that is the reason!

Eghad
March 23, 2006, 03:33 PM
Im not a big mall shopper thanks to the Internet :D

threegun
March 23, 2006, 04:31 PM
River,

That is not the difference, that is the reason!

Yeper. Imagine 3 robberies per year for 20 years. I have heard from 8,000 in cash and gold to over 40,000 per event. Just using 10,000 dollars as an average and thats 600,000 dollars minumum that simply being armed has saved. The best thing is my boss. Several liberal N.Y. family members have tried to get him to stop us from carrying for liability reasons. He says that he would rather lose all his money than live knowing that one of us died because we weren't allowed to protect ourselves. The absolute coolest boss ever. We get new guns at cost. Used guns at a song.

delta58
March 23, 2006, 05:19 PM
If I'm alone call 911 set up an OP somewhere outside. If my family is inside call my wifes cell and tell her to leave at the nearest exit, she already knows that gunfire in the mall is not good and she will probably already be there. If I can't determine whether or not she is inside then I'll go back and do whatever is needed to get them out. I know a hanggun is not the weapon of choice agaisnt 3 BGs armed with ARs but if you could get close enough maybe.....

joebob2000
March 23, 2006, 05:54 PM
Calling 911 seems like a waste of time unless youre actually standing at a payphone ready to use it, or you have already made it to your car and are driving away from the scene and feeling bored. Why? The people inside with landlines undoubtedly started dialling as soon as the first shot rang, the call connected in an instant and the cops were dispatched to their exact location. Try the same thing with a cellphone and *if* you get through, to the *right* dispatch, you have to confirm your location before the cops will know where to go. Not something you want to deal with when ducking behind a planter hiding from bullets.

What would I do? I don't have a very aggressive attitude most of the time, but like many people I have a 'hero' complex and would be inclined to directly intervene. The guy in the parking lot wouldn't be one of them (who the hell shows up late for a shootout). Join him and find independent cover near the shooters, start taking careful shots until the shooters actually draw to fire on you. Line of fire? If anyone is around the shooters they are probably already dead. Gauge their reaction and prepare to retreat *fast*. Most likely they will relocate, depending on their ultimate goal (be it robbery) or they will pursue you (be it suicide-by-cop). Hope its not the latter. If you are carrying, hopefully you already have a head full of knowledge, like the things to hide behind that can stop a .223 round, and the fastest way out of the building. Put together a strategy like leading them your way and then sneaking one of multiple ways away from there, to split them up or mislead them. Unless your are in sneak, be constantly shouting 'gun, gun, get cover' so that fewer bystanders will be in harms way. When you aren't engaging, keep your weapon pointed straight down so noone assumes you are an aggressor.

This is some john wayne crap, indeed. But, many lives are on the line and if i had a choice to put myself in danger to save several people, i would gladly do it. Everyone in there is someones kid, someones parent, someone that doesnt deserve to get shot any more than if they were your own. Thats why people carry in the first place, right?

delta58
March 23, 2006, 08:52 PM
Threegun: you've got a cool boss!!

EMB135Driver
March 23, 2006, 10:04 PM
The Moderator closes my post about alien invasion scenarios, but leaves this open....why. What ever happened to free speach. Unless you can prove Aliens don't exist, it's just a question of probabilities.

I think I'd call the cops and get the hell out of there......a lot of dead hero's in the world, no need to add to that number

Doug.38PR
March 23, 2006, 10:12 PM
Delete double post

Doug.38PR
March 23, 2006, 10:14 PM
The Moderator closes my post about alien invasion scenarios, but leaves this open....why. What ever happened to free speach. Unless you can prove Aliens don't exist, it's just a question of probabilities.


Well it is their forum and they have the right to choose their rules.
Generally they like for threads to have some measure of possiblilty. I post a lot of threads that are improbable but not impossible.
While I can't disprove aliens in space, the fact is we have never seen one much less had an invasion of the planet. Even if we did, we don't even know they would have the Star Trek weapons that you described in your thread "phasers, disruptors, deflector shields, death rays, etc." It's far fetched fiction on top of fiction on top of fiction. It's like posting at thread about Night of the Living dead where a bunch of zombies attack you. Do you shoot them in the head? Or what if the Wolfman attacks you? Do you carry Silvertip HP Bullets? They like to do save Tactics and Training for realistic threads.
General Discussion forum would probably be better for the Alien Invasion senario. (BTW, I am a Sci Fi Fan....from Twilight Zone to Star Trek The Next Generation. I liked your thread. In General Discussion it probably would have had a lot of fun :cool: )

Glenn E. Meyer
March 24, 2006, 10:30 AM
Attacks on the mall are certainly in the realm of possibility if you look at other countries, loonies that have done exactly that here and listened to presentations of possible terrorist scenarios.

My focus was not as much as the classic interventionist conundrum as to how you might interact with other armed citizens.

Some folks have advocated carrying a long arm in the car for such incidents. While discouraged by some, it is not out of the realm of possibility that we could see many focused attacks on public places.

The idea that a terrorist couldn't be late or that such folks might not stage outside is not realistic. At one school shooting, the kids staged outside and pulled the fire alarm and shot at those fleeing. That certainly could happen at a mall. Start a fire fight at one end and then have a team at the other to nail those exiting.

Thus, if you were faced with someone taking out a long arm - can you be sure that it is a good guy? I don't know.

If you did carry your long arm - would you then be at risk from arriving law enforcement - damn right you would be.

If I were a cop and arrived at a mall with teams of folks carrying ARs and shooting at each other - that would be just delightful.

As I pointed out, in our diverse society, one can't have any clear sign of who is the terrorist. I worried that a minority good guy would be at significant risk. As I pointed out, after Diallo, there are clear studies indicating that minorities are at risk. Interestingly, the risk seems more from civilians than trained LEOs.

So, God forbid that we face such firearms based terrorism in the USA. If a mall shoot starts, it's going to be a mess.

Do CHLs really deter as Lott suggested? Who really knows now?

riverrat66
March 24, 2006, 11:30 AM
If you did carry your long arm - would you then be at risk from arriving law enforcement - damn right you would be.
If I were a cop and arrived at a mall with teams of folks carrying ARs and shooting at each other - that would be just delightful.


Glenn,

Think about this and please I do not in any way, shape or form agree with this way of thinking but one has to give this some consideration.

When the "Brady Bunch" reads this and I'm quite certain they will, they're argument will be, if all guns were banned we wouldn't have to worry about the goodguys running around being mistaken for BG's by the police.

Yeah right, all the goodguys would be dead but at least they wouldn't be a threat to the police!

Glenn E. Meyer
March 24, 2006, 12:02 PM
I suppose that antigunners could read the forum and pick out way more ridiculous postings.

However, discussing such issues has to be done somewhere. The internet has given us an open forum.

If we discuss some possible problems in gun use - yes, somebody might quote them. That's life.

Should we ban scenarios as folks chest pound to a ridiculous level in some?

There are far more crackpot stuff in gun forums than this thread.

You have a point but I think it is a risk that goes with the terrority of open discussion.

riverrat66
March 24, 2006, 12:22 PM
Glenn,
I was not suggesting that discussing issues such as this should be banned. The antigunners have probably already thought of what I suggested might happen.

I was just thinking about how ridiculous their platform of "ban all guns" actually is. Look what happened in England. Not even the cops have guns, only the BG's do!

tomh1426
March 24, 2006, 07:12 PM
Id dial 911 and leave , I dont dial 1911 unless I have to !

drifts1
March 27, 2006, 02:16 AM
1st scenerio being that i'm alone or have my wife with me, I would get to safety and make sure my family is out of harms way, of course my wife or myself would call 911 next. What to do next is interesting, first thought would be self preservation, besides my family needs a father/husband, I am the primary provider and protector and need to be around to continue doing so for as long as I can. But thinking of all the possible victims inside turns my stomach. Being armed and not attempting to help in some manner doesn't seem right. We all lobby for the 2nd amendment and the right to carry and we speak about wanting the oppurtunity do defend ourselves and our fellow citizens. This would be the time if ever there was one. Now I would never choose to go up against AR-15's with just a handgun, but think of all the people in the mall who are completely unarmed. At least we have a fighting chance. Dont get me wrong I am NOT thinking of getting into an open shootout against longarms, I would conceil myself and look for the oppurtunities to take shots and save lifes. And for the record I am not trying to be any type of hero, I am the farthest thing from it and surely I'd be scared to death. But the only thing that scares me more, would be to do nothing. I dont think i could face my family or live with myself for that matter. And as far as waiting for the cops to arrive, forget it. By the time they get there it will be all over, besides they wont enter the mall knowing the BG's have AR-15's. Theyll wait outside till it turns into a hostage situation or the BG have finished their shooting spree then commited suicide.

2nd scenerio, family is on other end, I would call my wifes cell asked they got to safety, if not I would go get em, either by exiting the mall an entering thru another entrance or by running in and out of stores. Somehow I would make every attempt to save my family. If it meant coordinating with my wife to run to safety while I engage the BG' into a firefight to distract them so be it. If I dont attempt to protect my family no matter the odds then i dont deserve one, much less a gun.

I guess I will never really know unless it were to happen, hope it never does, I just hope I'm able to think straight if it does.

I shouldnt be up this late, I start ramblin, goodnight all.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 27, 2006, 10:26 AM
Many departments have change procedures in active shooter cases. In the last mall shooter in Washington state, they formed up and went after the shooter quickly.

However, not to beat a dead horse, the scenario is more complicated than whether you charge in.

I specifically wanted to focus on how you deal with seeing someone unlimbered a long arm and heading for the mall also.

What if the person in question looks like a group that you might think is more likely to be terrorist? There is a large literature now on racial factors in LEO shootings and civilian evaluations of violence based on race.

Hemicuda
March 27, 2006, 11:16 AM
my wife (you meant girlfriend, right?) is at the other end of the mall with her kid? these bozo's with the ar-s would be dead already, or she would be... ain't NOBODY endangering her kids unless she's dead already... and i feel sorry for anyone who tries endangering them while she is still breathing...

Delta Dave
March 28, 2006, 02:02 PM
Glenn:

Yea, I've been following this one with interest. As always, you've come up with an interesting situation with lots of twists and turns. I will address myself to just a little of what I've read.

To begin, I have tried to get over the hero complex that plagued me during my youth. My primary concern is my family, generally my wife as both of my boys are grown and usually doing their own thing. Many folks have opined that their first action would be to contact their spouse by phone to make sure that he/she had successfully found safety. Not a bad first step. However, I have determined that I am much happier, and so is she, if we are together. I don't see many opportunities for us to be in separate places in North Star or Rolling Oaks (local shopping malls). Before the flames start, it's a decision we made. We go together because neither of us likes to go at all, so why not do it together and both be unhappy. And it cuts down on the time spent in those God forsaken places because we hurry through the ordeal so as not to prolong the misery. For what its worth except for when we're at work we are generally together enjoying or not enjoying whatever is going on. Most of the time that involves guns or fishing, sometime both...ever shot carp?

As you said, your interest is in what to do about AR-15 stranger guy in the parking lot. For me, not to complicated. If the guy ain't in uniform or I/we don't know him, I'm/we're going to ground and do our very best to make sure he don't know I/we exist. I won't risk my wife's safety on an unknown. I'll do everything in my power, whether armed or not, to keep her safe.

So, there it is. I think there are way too many different "what ifs" in this thread to really come up with a "this will take care of everything" kind of a game plan. Priority number one make sure my wife is safe. If that means we stay joined at the hip most of the time that's okay, it works for me, I kind of like it that way. She's fun to be with and smell a lot better than my other friends...


See you around town. Don't forget the snub gun shoot.


Dave

Glenn E. Meyer
March 28, 2006, 07:59 PM
Thanks, Dave - if I get through May - then my time frees and we will get those snubbies shooting.

I've been think once I was past the Fiesta match to do a standard IDPA with my 642 for grins.

Since I carry that as much as my Glock 19 - I would like to get some trigger time with it. At the NTI - we had J frames and they were quite the little guy when the SHTF. However, I did find them useful.

My thoughts about the AR guy was that, I have no idea who he is. Thus, I agree to be low profile from him. Also, I was worried that any AR good guy who wasn't caucasian has a significant risk of being shot on site in a terrorist situation. I've read quite a few studies and simulation of such situations that suggest the differential risk based on race.

threegun
March 29, 2006, 09:12 AM
I am Hispanic and also worry about the possibility of being confused with the bad guy. Thats one reason I purchased a concealed weapon permit holders badge. It looks like an officers badge and the hope is the if I am ever forced to pull my gun, this badge will cause the responding officers or off duty officers or fellow ccp holders to think before shooting.

It is a well founded fear for all but especially minorities.

gac009
March 29, 2006, 10:07 AM
I would call my wife on her cell phone. If my wife is able she will have left the mall. I will exit the mall as quickly and safely as possible and basically make my way to the other side of the mall from the outside. Nothing I do will require handgun tatics or training. One handgun against mulitiple ARs is only gonna get me killed, very quickly, and leave my family without me. Any mall will have many entrances and exits, if I retreat enough I will eaisly be able to find one and make my way to the other side from the outside where I will find my family outside running across the parking lot.