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View Full Version : Cross-draw? Sure, why not.


Skyguy
March 16, 2006, 02:05 PM
It's a dirty shame!

Most novice gunslingers believe that strong side carry is the only way to go, hardly considering cross-draw.
Why? Because some 'expert' told them that cross-draw is too slow, that it sweeps the target and is more prone to a miss. Whereas eu-ed/strong side/duty carry is faster and draws 'into' the target and more prone to a hit.

That may be true. But, remember Joe, a quick draw toward the target is no guarantee of a com hit or even a meaningful hit or even a hit. It's just fast......and only marginally accurate past spittin' distance. Try it.

Cross-draw isn't for everyone and it's not about to replace strong side/duty carry, but consider this:

Most draw situations will 'never' require a sub one second fast draw. You know, the "cowboy fast draw".

Fast-draw can be fun, competitive and a great game to master, but it has little to do with a strong side-concealed carry scenario.
In the real world, by the time one clears their garmints for the draw, the quick-draw is nullified. It's simply past tense.

Therefore, I carry cross-draw most of the time and for several logical reasons:

1. Cross-draw is very concealable. No bulge in the handgun area. It hugs tight to the body.

2. Comfort. Best carry for 8-12 hr. comfort. No banging gun on walls, chairs, door jambs, etc.

3. Quick draw from (dive for cover) kneeling and supine positions.

4. It's a very quick draw from auto and seated. Strong side carry buries the gun in the seat.

5. Excellent weapon retention with strike opportunities in case of a scuffle.

6. Easy and discreet fast access from covert carry....e.g. Walk with your hand on your handgun.

7. Excellent weak hand draw. Try 'that' with a strong side carry.

8. Easier to draw in running/dynamic situations.

Along with Lasergrips, efmj ammo and lethal striking, cross-draw is a recommended option taught in my Do-Or-Die private self defense classes.


cross-draw
http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/small/Dsc03052.jpg

Strike from weapon retention
http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/small/Dsc03089.jpg
.

Phxdog
March 16, 2006, 03:14 PM
Skyguy - Excellent information. I would add another plus: harder to have the weapon taken from you from behind. You kind of intimate that in #5. Your point on #7, weak hand access is one I had not considered.

BTW, the guy in the pict (you?) is demonstrating IMO one of the most important aspects of survival - don't look like a victim. I think most BGs would decide to pass on that guy and go on to easier marks.

model 25
March 16, 2006, 03:17 PM
Well I hope it works out for you:D I won't carry cross draw for several reasons. I won't telegraph my draw by reaching across my body. I won't have the butt forward for easy access by my enemy. Cross draw does not conceal well. Cross draw gives a close enemy more time to stop your draw. Cross draw is slow.

The only time I would even think about cross draw is in a vehicle.

25

pax
March 16, 2006, 03:29 PM
Skyguy ~

I carry strong-side appendix. It's every bit as fast as hip or behind-hip carry and has all the advantages of cross-draw.

pax

Rob P.
March 16, 2006, 03:29 PM
I won't telegraph my draw by reaching across my body. I won't have the butt forward for easy access by my enemy. Cross draw does not conceal well. Cross draw gives a close enemy more time to stop your draw. Cross draw is slow.

Actually almost all of that is false hype.

You can't help but telegraph ANY drawing movement. Reach behind for SOB, Strong Side, or Cross draw and you'll need to move some article of clothing in order to grasp your weapon. In any situation where you need that weapon, such movement will draw attention. Ie: you just telegraphed your draw.

Butt forward makes easy access by your enemy? How many times have you been mano-a-mano and face to face with someone who is going to kill you yet they had no weapon already presented? If your holster is properly built your weapon will be properly retained in that holster even in the event of a fistfight. IF your carry rig won't do that, dump it for one that will because eventually you'll be picking up your weapon after it falls out in public.

Cross draw conceals just as well as strong-side. It's still a huge lump of steel in a holster on your belt.

Cross draw is slow? Since when? Many of the old west "shootists" used a cross draw and they survived against many who used a conventionally rigged holster. Slow is also relative. If a specific person is "slow" then they'll be slow no matter what carry method is used.

The ONLY problem with cross draw is that during the draw and presentation of the weapon, at some point the weapon WILL BE pointed at your own body. This makes the possibility that you'll shoot yourself higher than SOB or Strongside carry. However, given the incident reports where people have shot themselves in the leg at places like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch, even strongside carry has that risk.

Capt Charlie
March 16, 2006, 03:37 PM
The only real disadvantage I can see would be the tendency to "oversweep" the target and swing back to recover, but like all else, practice would do a lot to overcome that.

For a someone wearing a sport coat or suit though, I think a cross-draw at 10 or 11 o'clock would make for a very fast & efficient system.

Edward429451
March 16, 2006, 04:11 PM
Crossdraw has a lot going for it. I don't use it much. Long trips in the car and sometimes in the winter where it'd be faster to reach into the coat rather than into the coat AND behind.

I suspect model 25 has never really tried a crossdraw holster but just thought about it and decided it wasn't for him.

#6 don't telegraph anything if you carry yourself properly. You summed it up real well skyguy.

OBIWAN
March 16, 2006, 07:14 PM
In close encounters of the unexpected kind

You will turn which way exactly:confused:

With a strong side holster I can turn my body and use my weak hand to fend off the attacker while either drawing my weapon OR simply keeping it out of reach

With a crossdraw I think I am setting myself up for a gun grab(or at least a struggle for control) either way

Either I put it closer to him OR I put it in perfect alignment for them to draw it

Easy E
March 16, 2006, 07:31 PM
I'm 6'1". I have a high waist and very long arms. To draw from strong side I have to bring my arm up at a difficult angle to clear leather. It's cumbersome and slow. I've struggled with it for several years with little improvement in draw speed. I'm currently looking at cross draw holsters. Haven't settled on one yet.

CobrayCommando
March 16, 2006, 07:44 PM
If you think crossdraw is slow or advertises, watch that episode of Miami Vice with the Argentinian assassin played by an ISPC guy... You can do it so fast that your opponnent doesn't have a chance to react.

shield20
March 16, 2006, 07:47 PM
I can see it as an option for some, but since I shoot, and stand, in a modified weaver "interview' stance, I would rather keep the gun behind my hip instead of in front of it on the weak side closer to most adversaries. I also would rather be able to quickly point shoot from the top of the holster instead of having to bring the gun around atleast 90 degrees AND up 90 degrees -all between myself, and within reach of, the BG - before the gun is on target. I also prefer a 'straight up into front sight acquisition and on target' then a 'swing around, stop and up' draw style. I also don't underestimate the saving of ANY time in getting my piece on target - being faster and saving split seconds will probably help me win. I also enjoy being able to conceal just fine with an open jacket - makes the draw and reloads fast and a bit easier.

Cross draw does have an advantage when seated in a car though.

model 25
March 16, 2006, 10:38 PM
You can't help but telegraph ANY drawing movement. Reach behind for SOB, Strong Side, or Cross draw and you'll need to move some article of clothing in order to grasp your weapon. In any situation where you need that weapon, such movement will draw attention. Ie: you just telegraphed your draw.

I ain't going to argue because there is no use in it. I would like you to point out anyone who uses cross draw in law enforcement or anyone who wins in any of the IPSC or other contest useing a cross draw. Modern pistol fighting has nothing to do with the old west other than the courage it takes.

Face to face reaching across 18 inches your body leaves you open for a press trap of your gun arm while the enemy makes a lateral movement to the side away from the gun.

Face to face with the strong side your hand moves 6 inches to the gun and useing a speed rock there is no time for your enemy to move. To say you can move 18 inches as fast as you move six leaves me sckeptical at the least. No offense intended.

Butt forward makes easy access by your enemy? How many times have you been mano-a-mano and face to face with someone who is going to kill you yet they had no weapon already presented?

I never seen the men who tried to kill me but it was I that was not armed:D :D You better rethink a bit though, if you have a holster that retains the gun from being snatched when they walk up to you the you will slow your own draw.

On the strong hip they have to move you or themselves to get around to the gun. Again no offense intended but the fastest people use a strong side draw. Stand in the mirror and see which telegraphs more, 18 inches or six inches and get a timer and see which you do better with

25

Digital Chainsaw
March 16, 2006, 11:39 PM
Got to agree with Easy E, only my body is at the other end of the spectrum. I have a huge ribcage and pretty beefy pecs and arms. While reading this thread I sat here and tried to reach across my body to where a hypothetical cross-draw weapon would be. I found that not only would I have to extend my right (strong) arm as far as it would go across my torso, I would also have to pull my left shoulder anteriorly nearly as far as it would go to get a full grip on the gun I would have been carrying in a cross-draw holster (kinda hurt, too!).

Needless to say, cross-draw is ruled out for me.

Rob P.
March 17, 2006, 03:05 AM
I ain't going to argue because there is no use in it. I would like you to point out anyone who uses cross draw in law enforcement or anyone who wins in any of the IPSC or other contest useing a cross draw

I believe that cross draw isn't allowed in competitions ranging from cowboy action shooting to IPSC because of the possibilty of painting the crowd.

Also, speed based competition isn't the same as concealed carry or self defense. And I don't know of any law enforcement which authorizes a cross draw while in uniform. Plain clothes yes, but not in uniform.

smince
March 17, 2006, 05:56 AM
I've been carrying since 1982. I started out with cross-draw, but have went to strong side 4 o'clock carry. The minus of crossdraw for me are the following:

My stomach. It is hard, as Digital Chainsaw says, for me to reach over my stomach and draw my weapon in a c-d position. I had already went away from cd carry before I got fat, though. Carry in the 4-5 o'clock position, I can reach behind my back and access my weapon with my off hand if necessary, so the ambi feature works with this carry also.

When the gun is in position for a cross-draw, it is farther forward than it has to be for strong-side draw, at least for me. A sudden breeze/wind can blow your jacket open and more likely to expose your gun than carry on the strong side at the midline or farther back. I accidently "flashed" my weapon more in cd carry than strong side.

However, I disagree with the "cover your own body" at some point in the draw. I have never pointed my weapon at my own body during a cd presentation, either from hip or shoulder rig, although I can see how it could be done.

Skyguy
March 17, 2006, 12:04 PM
>>I won't telegraph my draw by reaching across my body.

Strong side draw actually telegraphs 'more' than cross-draw. No kidding, try it.

>>I won't have the butt forward for easy access by my enemy.

Look again at how I show cross-draw weapon protection/retention.
My weak hand covers – while my strong hand is free to strike, stab, gouge, etc.

Strong side weapon retention is actually riskier because your strong hand is up and back leaving you more defenseless....and that method usually requires retention help from the weak hand. That's bad mojo! Try it.

>>Cross draw does not conceal well.

Cross-draw hugs very tight to the body. It conceals much better than strong side. No bulge in the obvious places.

>>Cross draw gives a close enemy more time to stop your draw.

That applies to any carry method.
You've let someone too close. Now, it's fight or flight....do-or-die.

>>Cross draw is slow.

It's no slower than any other concealed carry method. Usually cross-draw doesn't require a sweep of a cover garment.
Cross-draw also allows one to have their hand discreetly on their weapon....in anticipation.

>>The only time I would even think about cross draw is in a vehicle.

If that's "the only time you would even think about cross draw", just pull your weapon from your strong side and put it on the seat.

....and don't forget that a weak hand draw from a strong side carry is beyond difficult. Try 'that' sometime. :)
.

shield20
March 17, 2006, 02:02 PM
I would rather have my weak hand up and pushing off as I back up while my strong hand goes for the fight stopper - the pistol behind and protected by my hip.

I would rather have my gun in a more convenient place concealed just fine in most any situation - most people really won't notice. A garment that must be closed to cover a piece stored over front of hip can be left open to cover back of hip. Easier to gain access to the strong side one handed with an open jacket/vest.

Drawing strong side is definetly faster - especially when you consider what is important - getting the barrel to point on target, even more so at contact distances. I KNOW I can get a bunch of rounds on a close target as soon as the gun clears the holster - can't do that cross draw.

DON'T put your weapon on your seat - easy to get away from you (check the Platt/Matix vs FBI shootout).

Skyguy
March 17, 2006, 02:56 PM
>>I would rather have my weak hand up and pushing off as I back up while my strong hand goes for the fight stopper - the pistol behind and protected by my hip.

That's a tactic. But, it's offensive and not defensive.
If your attacker is that close, you're already in trouble....and more than likely you'll never get to your weapon.
That tactic means little to the old, slow or the weak. Distance/awareness is their friend.

>>Drawing strong side is definetly faster

Don't count on that....especially from concealed carry. ;)

Back of hip carry is certainly no faster than cross-draw and probably slower for Joe average.
Its a 'long' reach and requires a flawless garment sweep.

Besides, what difference does a few hundreds of a second make? It means 'nothing' in a close encounter and only ensures mutual wounds or death!
.

kjdoski
March 17, 2006, 03:24 PM
I like crossdraw, in theory, but have yet to find a holster that conceals worth a darn in crossdraw. The only one that does a decent job, for me, is my FIST IWB x-draw for my J-frame. What do you guys carry in?

Regards,

Kevin

shield20
March 17, 2006, 03:31 PM
Unfortunately - stuff happens. I would rather be prepared for any/the majority of situations that I might find myself in then assume I can pick and choose which one I may be faced with. "Too close" in a CC situation is more apt to be the norm instead of the exception - and you had better have a viable solution - cause that is when you will need it most...that is not cross-draw when he is breathing on you. You are right - you ARE in trouble - you will most likely be in a reactive situation (our laws see to that) - the faster you can go offensive instead of remaining defensive the more likely you are to survive. THAT is THE key! How long do you really want to use one arm/hand to protect your (more exposed) piece and the other to fight him off when you can be getting rounds on target instead?

I definetly count on hip draw being faster - cause it is under most situations - from a draw it is ALOT faster to get rounds on target, especially at real world CC distances. And the natural standing and fighting stance for most people, including most defense arts, is strong leg back - why put your weapon and draw in front of the bad guy? I will grant you from a car seat cross draw is easier.

I don't know exactly what difference a few 100s of seconds may make - but I do know I want them ON MY SIDE - not his. You're very generous - but WHY give him any advantage? It may mean everything! That is why most of us practice being accurate AND being fast.

Edward429451
March 17, 2006, 03:54 PM
My crossdraw holster is a Galco. It's form fitted to the 1911 and covers the triggerguard but has no thumbstrap. It does not conceal well for my skinny frame 6'-1"/170lbs. I have no belly so it does not hold tight to my body but I like that as it makes it even easier to grab. I could't get away with trying to conceal it under a suit jacket but a heavy winter coat is fine or no coat in the car (yet not technically concealed either!) I rarely use it but for those times it suits me pefectly for my needs.

My everyday is a Ted Blocker (LFI Rig) It's a form fitted IWB with velcro sewed to a leather tab which mates anywhere on my velcro lined belt, and no clip to show if I have to raise my arms for some reason. It does have a thumbsnap and good, I've found that my condition 1 carry has went to condition 0(!) twice on it's own (during high activity) so yay thumbstrap for peace of mind. All in all it's a sweet setup and sucks up real tight to virtually disappear under even the lightest of covershirts.

Mannlicher
March 17, 2006, 04:16 PM
I often carry cross draw. I find its easier to conceal a large frame 6 inch Smith that way.
Most of the reasons listed here for not carrying that way, I find bogus.

Skyguy
March 18, 2006, 12:26 AM
I carry strong-side appendix. It's every bit as fast as hip or behind-hip carry and has all the advantages of cross-draw.

Pax

But, is it comfortable when bending and seated?
It's not comfortable for me. It digs into my leg and ribs and is covered by the seatbelt.

Seems like a lot of women prefer a purse/bag type carry method.
.

pax
March 18, 2006, 12:33 AM
Skyguy ~

I've never had a problem with it. When I wear it on my hip, I look like an overweight hippo with a tumor, and I constantly bump into things. When I put it behind my hip, I can't draw easily because it hurts my shoulder. And in both cases, the grip digs into my ribs while the muzzle end digs into my leg. Probably a side effect of being short-waisted, with curves. :)

In front of the hip is very comfortable and I've never had a problem with it digging into me at all.

Oh, re purse carry. I've done it, once in a blue moon. More often, if I need to put the gun in a bag, I'll wear a fanny pack. I'm NOT a fan of off-body carry, though I understand that some people are willing to put up with the weight, the hassle, the slowness, and the danger of carrying that way.

pax

EricN
March 18, 2006, 04:49 AM
I often carry in a cross draw. During the winter when sweaters and bulky parkas are a neccesity a good cross draw is right there at my jackets opening instead of behind my hip and under a sweater.

Just my .02.

EricN

DVC9
March 18, 2006, 07:45 AM
Skyguy,


Just couldn't resist this one! Good post.

To all you armchair experts who would denounce a carry method without having spent time in research, actual carry, draw practice, and experimentation with multiple holsters...

First, to each his own, it doesn't matter to me if your personal carry method is via rectal supository. If it works for you, so be it. And if you haven't personally spent the time, then be a little more respectful of those who have.

Let me correct a few misconceptions.

Crossdraw carry was often the preferred carry method by those who did carry and much of law enforcement up to the early to mid 60s.

Two major reasons for the CD method fading from acceptance.
A) Advancement of "retention" holsters in the law enforcement arena.
B) The decision by "safety" officials in the (then) relatively new sport of Practical shooting to ban or limit CD because when drawing, the muzzle could sweep other people before being aligned with the target, whereas mandatory strongside meant the muzzle came out perpandicular to the "FiringLine". Prior to this the Vast MAjority of competition rigs were Crossdraw.

As to the gungrab issue...

Shield and others have mentioned the "interview position" and rightly so. Yet they fail to apply it's use as appropriate in their thoughts concerning Cross draw.

First when we use the termCross Draw are not talking about "Weak side" Carry where the gun is carried at the 9 o'clock (Righties) position with grip reversed. Most of the argument expressed against CD result from this form of carry.

[/B]Cross Draw carries the gun in the 10-11 o'clock position.[B]

This places the gun flatter against the body with the butt closer to the centerline of the body.

From typical defensive stances such as the "Secret Service", "Interview",
and "Jack Benny" ,CD is as fast, on the average, or faster than "strong side" carry from concealment. In all the defensive stances your hands are kept close to the centerline of the body.
In some cases such as the popular "Secret Service" stance the hand is within a couple of inches of touching the butt of a CD carried pistol.
If you are an advocate of a "bladed" stance like "Shield" (and myself for that matter) with your weak side lforward then the CD shows another of its strengths.
When the weak side is forward, a properly carried CD pistol will be positioned in such a way that as you simply clear leather the muzzle will be in alignment with the threat. Less motion, hence faster than strongside.

Conversely if you stand square to the target as so many have been used to doing by range constraints then the strong side is in alignment. But as soon as you blade your body as in a weaver then the CD gains an advantage.

As far as a Gun grab, this too has ben misrepresented by those carrying like a Cavalryman!! With true Cross Draw carry the butt does NOTface your advasary. Standing square (not suggested) at worst, the gun must be grabbed sideways. When you stand bladed the butt is pointed away from the BG and the slant of the holster further makes the grab more difficult.
In a multiple opponent scenario with adversaries front and rear the CD has actually shown itself to be Very defendable. In fact in testing, a Bianchi 111
frequently beat out level 2 strongside retention holsters in this scenario.

After all that, I have to say that I do not currently carry CD. Why?
Well my duty rig is strong side and therefore I carry strongside.
Otherwise I would have no reservation about carrying crossdraw and have done so in the past as an everyday method.

Try it, experiment with various holsters, then form an opinion!!

Mick

shield20
March 18, 2006, 10:34 AM
Mick/Sky Guy - what is your perferred method of concealing a CD piece? Will an unzippered vest/jacket cover the piece OK? I was giving this even more thought this AM while putting on my HK - and I do see some (more) of the good points you guys have mentioned, and some of my bad 'points' not being so...bad. My biggest "problem" has been the butt of a strong side pistol printing; while my new Kramer/P2000 combo takes care of this nicely (w/o having to go to some too-small subcompact), I was wondering just how a CD would work out. I no longer have the concerns of plainclothes matching my duty position, so it is CCW carry only. Also, what are some of the better CD holsters worth trying?

Skyguy
March 18, 2006, 12:29 PM
Mick/Sky Guy - what is your perferred method of concealing a CD piece?

My method is in front of the point of my hip so that the butt lies canted forward and it's flat against my stomach. Purposely, the barrel doesn't cover my 'stuff'. Easy to see that in post #1.
Holster, height, cant is a personal preference. I use a tensioned slide or a thumb break slide. Depends.
I like as little holster as possible.

My cross-draw carry opinion comes from bad experiences. I did the streets in plain clothes for ten years and I soon realized that duty/strong-side was easily detectable, hard to retain without both hands....and certainly not fast.
Didn't take long to realize that cheating and stealth works out there. The easiest and quickest way to my weapon was cross-draw....standing or seated.

Will an unzippered vest/jacket cover the piece OK?

Cover is easy. But just waist length won't work on owb. Given the seasons; a jacket or shirt with bottom buttoned, loose t-shirt, shirt, sweater, sweat shirt.
Whatever.......because cross-draw conceals pretty easily.
.

model 25
March 18, 2006, 02:48 PM
Here now :D Lets talk about the picture of the guy who is carrying cross draw and the tactics we would use to defeat an advisary like him.:cool:

First off it is obvious he is a strong advisary and most of us wouldn't be able to physicaly win against him face to face. So a gun is the only protection legaly that you would have. Just the look of this person when it goes to court will help you prove you were in fear of your life.

Any act of aggression that threatens your life would probably be looked at by your fellow citizens as reasonable just by looking at the aggresive look of this picture.

So how do you win a gun fight against this guy?:)

25

Skyguy
March 18, 2006, 04:53 PM
So how do you win a gun fight against this guy?

Your best bet is an ambush.
How do I know? Because it's me.

:)
.

thorysus
March 18, 2006, 06:32 PM
Your best bet is an ambush.
How do I know? Because it's me.


I love the response.

Im new to all this and not just this web site so im really talking out my back side (i can say that right?). But it would seem for someone of my build (the bog ol gut and butt) if drawing from my waist i would want im peice on the same side as my drawing hand. i just have to much surface to go around. But it seems a shoulder carry of cd would be very fast and benificial for me as well. Im a big guy and therfore anywhere besides just behind my right hip or under my left arm (carring right handed) would be my best choice, would you agree?

model 25
March 18, 2006, 07:01 PM
Your best bet is an ambush.
How do I know? Because it's me.

I came to the same conclusion:D If I ever get into a fight it will be the same, ambush.:D :)

Ever think that looking to strong might work against you? Some people say look like a hard target and people will leave you alone but looking hard means the attack will be an ambush rather than a confrontation.

I choose to look like I don't own anything and wear clothes that yell that out to the casual man.

25

atlctyslkr
March 18, 2006, 08:21 PM
If it makes it harder for a BG to get it from me I'm all for it! As stated it makes snatching from behind much harder. Great with a sport coat.

Skyguy
March 18, 2006, 09:30 PM
Mick,

Obviously, you know what's up.

Your post #26 is outstanding and informative. Lots of info there and it's well deserving of a re-read.

Right on!
.

Skyguy
March 19, 2006, 12:30 AM
So whadda ya do when the boogy man shows up in the middle of the night?

You don't need a cross-draw or a strong side draw now, your piece is already in your hand.
But it's dark, really dark. You can barely see your gun let alone your sights.

Then, there he is.....the boogy man, gun and all.
You can't just start shooting in the boogy man's general direction. You need to know where the shots will go. You need good hits.
You need accuracy; center of mass accuracy.....in the dark.

Then you realize that you've got Lasergrips. You can look over the gun and focus on the boogy man. You can see the dot.
And it all comes back to you......'just place the dot and you'll hit that spot'.

And it works. See the boogy man? See the dot?

:)




http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/DSC03189.JPG

.

Para Bellum
March 19, 2006, 05:05 AM
Start from zero distance (grappling etc) and try a speed-rock with cross draw...mhm.
In a car however I see the benefits of cd.

Az Qkr
March 19, 2006, 02:31 PM
Where can one take these do or die self defense classes of yours? What do your charge for a few hours? A day?

I'm interested

Willing to travel :D

carebear
March 19, 2006, 05:24 PM
In my experience, after a week or so of trying, I couldn't get the gun to stay sufficiently concealed while positioned on the front half of my body when wearing an unzipped or buttoned jacket.

As was stated, a gust of wind flipping the coat open exposes the entire front of your body to view but the gun behind the point of the hip is still shielded from view and has all the inherent weight of the garment fighting any further exposure.

Even in still or indoor conditions, just leaning forward or turning sharply to the right opens the coat and allows the gun butt to be open to view. Much less getting into your front left pants pocket (which I do with my left hand so as to leave my right (shooting) hand free to draw while thus momentarily encumbered. Were I a cop or someone who was unconcerned about casual exposure I suppose I wouldn't care, but there's no "up side" I could find in my trial of cd years ago for day-to-day carry that outweighed all the negatives I experienced. I do other things in the car to cope with the minor added complexity of drawing while belted in.

Thus I dismissed, for me, cd as a practical or useful option.

Obviously YMV'd. :)

Az Qkr
March 19, 2006, 11:48 PM
You need accuracy; center of mass accuracy.....in the dark.

That boogey man of yours isn't in the dark. Unsighted or sighted fire would be no problem in that room.

Then you realize that you've got Lasergrips. You can look over the gun and focus on the boogy man. You can see the dot.

Ya, I can see the dot, I can also see your boogeyman quite nicely, thats not anywhere near dark nor would I need to use the sights. Were you trying to inference that without the laser we couldn't hit that boogeyman of yours?

Looks like another advertisement for the laser where it isn't needed.

shield20
March 20, 2006, 12:25 PM
I am still not sold on the concealment aspect of C-D either. HOW do you keep the gun covered yet still have fast access? You need the shirt/jacket buttoned, so do you use the weak hand to pull up the covering garment? Do you use IWB or OWB holster? Is getting the reload mag easy enough when it is hidden by a zippered jacket? (that is still located behind weak side hip correct?)

pax
March 20, 2006, 01:07 PM
shield20 ~

I've carried in the appendix position for over five years now, in an IWB rig. The number of days I've gone unarmed I can count on one hand. The number of people who have "made" me I can count on one finger (that was my mom, hugging me unexpectedly around the waist). Cross-draw and appendix are nearly identical in how concealed the gun is, so all I can say is that from my experience this is a very concealable method of carry.

Of course, I wear women's clothes rather than guy's clothes, but I think most people would acknowledge that women's clothing is generally more problematic for concealment. :) (Thinner materials, tighter fits, and guys look at a woman's overall shape whereas few people notice a guy's overall shape.)

Depending on the weather, I conceal my firearm with zippered fleece vests, or loose buttoned vests, or pullover sweaters, or cardigans, or pullover sweatshirts, or zippered sweatshirts, or untucked loose tee shirts, or untucked camp shirts, or tight tank tops under loose overshirts. Sometimes I use my holster's tuckable feature, and wear a loose but tucked-in blouse or tee shirt -- sometimes with an open vest, sometimes without.

Some methods of concealment are slower than others, of course. But from most of the untucked options, my draw for an A-zone hit at 7 yards is consistently better than 1.8 seconds, measured by an electronic timer. From the tucked options, it varies from there up to 2.5 seconds. Again, these are consistent times, not some occasional fluke time I got once. I'm not even sure what my best-time-ever from concealment was. They are mostly two-hand draws.

One hand draws are slower but not impossible with any of the options I use. One hand weak hand draws are slower but not impossible with any of the options I use.

This is what I do to draw from appendix carry. Most of this should be applicable to cross-draw provided you don't get left/right mixed up.

To draw while wearing a zippered vest or jacket, I simply yank the zipper down with my left hand and then fling the cover back with my right. For a pullover, I grab the loose material over the gun with my left hand and pull it up while drawing with my right. Of course, you can always treat a zippered or buttoned garment the same as a pullover -- provided the material is cooperative. I've tested just about everything I wear.

For one hand draws, I have two options. Option one is to pull up the material with my right hand until it is near my armpit, slam my elbow down to hold it in place, and then draw the gun while keeping my elbow as close to my side as possible. This sounds slow but is surprisingly fast. The other option is simply to snake my hand in, draw, and then snake the drawn gun back out the same way my hand went it. This is slower but sneakier, and I think the sneakiness might be a good thing sometime.

Weak hand draws are similar. If I have a zipper and it is only halfway up, I can draw by reaching in behind it without disturbing my outer clothing. Or I can pull the zipper down and then draw. With a pullover, I can pull the material up with my left hand, again pinning it under my right elbow, then draw with my left hand. Or I can snake my left hand into position, get a complete grip on the gun, and snake the gun back out again.

Buttoned shirts or vests I simply treat as if they are pullovers. But in extremis, I can simply yank them open hard and let the buttons fall where they may.

Carrying in front of the hip isn't for everyone. But it is definitely a viable technique.

pax

shield20
March 20, 2006, 01:31 PM
Thanks Pax - I got a LOT of good info - and a few smiles :) from your post. While I usually keep my covering garment open, there are times where a pull-over garment is also my only choice - and I am faced with a draw similiar to what you describe - at that times the trade offs would seem to favor CD (appendix).

Sounds viable - it seems I may have to find a good holster and give a try!

Ichiro
March 20, 2006, 02:30 PM
Cross-draw is how I do it when I wear my SP-101 on a belt. It's by far the most comfortable and comforting method I've used. I use a FIST clip-on IWB holster (the cheapo #1), and I clip it between my belt and pants between the first and second belt loops, weak side. It does not poke my less than large belly, even when sitting, walking, climbing stairs, etc.

For spring, winter, or fall, I've always got some kind of jacket or sweatshirt at least. The good thing about wearing the gun in front is that I can easily look down and see if I'm printing without having to paw at my gun.

And I think having my hand on the butt of my revolver in this position is no more conspicuous than if it were on my rear of my strongside hip; probably less so. Clearing the cover garment is a whole lot easier, too.

~Ichiro

Skyguy
March 20, 2006, 02:57 PM
I've carried in the appendix position for over five years now, in an IWB rig.

Pax,

Curious here. What is your carry gun....and why?

.

pax
March 20, 2006, 04:16 PM
Skyguy ~

Glock 26 (baby Glock in 9mm), with Crimson Trace laser built-in. I chose it because I like the 9mm round (cheap, easy to shoot, acceptable for defense, did I mention cheap so I could shoot a lot?), because Glocks are very reliable and low-maintenance, and because the short barrel made it quite concealable. The 26 is also scary accurate.

pax

Az Qkr
March 21, 2006, 03:01 PM
Please respond where members can get the "do or die" training you offer? What is your contact information? What do you charge for this training? How long is the course?

Will I need a laser on my gun?

Willing to travel.

Bulldozer
March 21, 2006, 08:39 PM
I have used cross-draw for my 3" K-frames for those long stretches behind the wheel and at a desk sitting. It works well for me. I also carry IWB at times.

In the winters, springs, and falls of the Finger Lakes and Niagara regions of NY, with a coat or sweatshirt or cardigan, it's much faster to access than behind the hip, especially with layers. All you need do is lift the front and yank out as opposed to swepping stuff back or groping under/around.

FIST and Del Fatti both have good coss-draw/IWB convertible designs. Waiting 18 months for Matt's work is a trial, but well worth the custom work he does.

axslingerW
March 21, 2006, 08:57 PM
I find cross draw easyer to conceal when I'm carrying my sigma. I use an iwb at the 11:00 position and the grip is pressed into my stomach a bit. I wear a T-shirt between the gun and body and wear a golf shirt tucked in over the gun. I have not been "made" this way and am of average build. 5'11" 210 lbs. I do need a better holster though, as the uncle mikes cheapo doesn't stay in place well. Draw is MUCH faster than from the front pocket with my p11, and drawing while seated is better than any other carry method I've tried. I still find owb at 4:00 the most comfortable, but I can't wear owb while at work.

ClarkEMyers
March 21, 2006, 11:17 PM
Cross draw worked for Roy Chapman in early IPSC. Tom Campbell used an odd rig as well.

My point is mostly that even for Cooper's original concept of practical competition the starting position influenced the rig. Many of the mentions on this thread have an implicit or explicit starting position. Let me specify a start and I'll show you a cavalry draw as the fastest choice.

Myself I carry a full size 1911 strong side hip IWB but I don't kid myself it's a fast rig sitting down in a deep stuffed arm chair - indeed when I was optimizing for draw from a seated position with good concealment I did use a cavalry draw - don't do that anymore but if I needed to I would.

I don't know anything better from the driver's seat than a cross draw wrapped around the car seat belt as from Horseshoe Leather or maybe a Safepacker or some such. Course then again a carbine in the roof next to the visors might be the way to go?

threegun
March 22, 2006, 06:36 AM
Get a fanny pack and forget about it. I can access the gun prior to needing it without anyone knowing. I can fight,poke,stab,slash,mace,ect with both hands if needed (and not have my left so low that an overhand right knocks me out as in the picture). Nobody knows I have a gun in the pack anyway. I can wear it with anything. It is easy to access in cars, or anywhere else.

Bottom line is do what you are the most comfortable with and stay with it as practiced. When the poop hits the fan you will be ready either way.

backfist
March 24, 2006, 12:16 AM
Please respond where members can get the "do or die" training you offer? What is your contact information? What do you charge for this training? How long is the course?

Will I need a laser on my gun?

Willing to travel.

Skyguy is a hth/sd specialist. No need to travel he's right in your backyard.

He shows respect and you don't Brownie. So he'll probaly not talk to you.

But just in case you bump into him here's a heads up.

I've seen 'you' in action and I've seen 'him' in action. And the fair truth is that he'd beat you like a rented mule.
The man is a hard core Nidan.

Az Qkr
March 24, 2006, 01:14 AM
Skyguy is a hth/sd specialist. No need to travel he's right in your backyard.

He shows respect and you don't Brownie. So he'll probaly not talk to you.

But just in case you bump into him here's a heads up.

I've seen 'you' in action and I've seen 'him' in action. And the fair truth is that he'd beat you like a rented mule.
The man is a hard core Nidan

Not bad for a first post, probably Skyguy using a alter ego to make people believe he's the real deal.

If you've seen me like you say, pm me with a name or I'll take you as just a first time poster who can't expose his real self and hence will be considered a BSter like Skyguy.

threegun
March 24, 2006, 07:18 AM
Long Path, I didn't think it was a personal attack, still I removed it.

Long Path
March 24, 2006, 07:56 AM
This thread has a lot of good information in it... earlier. The last several posts are utterly off-topic.

Engage in PMs if you can't stay on topic, friends.

And please do not make personal attacks.

DVC9
April 5, 2006, 10:42 AM
Hey Folks, Been away for a few days...

Sky, Thanks for the kind words. Shield, I am glad that you saw some merit in some of the points we were espousing.

My intention was/is not to try to sway people away from strongside over to CD, but simply to correct some of the disinformation that has been spread concerning crossdraw carry.

If you are shooting in a "practical" match or on a square range or in a coarse with a traditional "vanilla" instructor you will find a definate bias against CD.
However crossdraw does have its place, and is a viable method of carry.

As a side note, I have found this method of carry particularly preferable to women with high waists. Even more so if they tend to be large in the bust.
For this build strong side carry is very difficult unless the holster is made with a significant "drop". "Dropping" the holster sufficiently may make it marginal for concealment and uncomfortable at best for sitting.
A good crossdraw setup can alleviate this aggravating situation, and allow a person so built to carry "On body" rather than tucked in a purse or stuffed in the glovebox.


M

Bullrock
April 5, 2006, 03:04 PM
Skyguy, Thank you for a really good post. I can't find anything to disagree with. In the olden days I used to do cowboy fast draw strong side, of course. But now adays I carry cross draw for all of the reasons you pointed out.

At my age I don't expect to win many fast draw shoot-outs from either side.

TooTall
April 6, 2006, 09:31 AM
Several years ago, my right hand was injured. Since I'm a "righty", I was placed on "light-duty" status (as a LEO). I still wanted to carry, so I taught myself how to be a "lefty"....but with a "twist" involved.

Instead of buying a "lefty" IWB holster for off-duty carry, I used my "righty" holster. At first, it seemed awkward to draw as a "lefty", especially since the butt of the pistol was facing forward. With some serious practise, however, it started to feel normal! It was also AS quick to draw that way, and since I was shooting as a "lefty", there was no sweeping of the pistol across the target.

I got so used to carrying my pistol that way that I continued to do so, even after my right hand had fully healed. I began practising a "lefty" draw, with a transition over to a "righty" shooting hold. With practise, it wasn't awkward, and was AS FAST as a right draw/shoot! Besides, all of the practise as a "lefty" was invaluable, for I was "suddenly" ambidextrous!

FACT: Most people are right-handed. Carrying on the left side MIGHT give you a slight advantage, in that other people will assume that you're right handed. Of course, being ambidextrous DEFINITELY gives you a slight advantage!

It's kind of funny, for if I try to throw a baseball as a lefty, I still look kind of "girlish"! I can't do SQUAT, other than shoot, with my left hand! HMM! My "stats" would read,
"Bats right, throws right, shoots left OR right!"

Skyguy
April 12, 2006, 10:48 AM
Instead of buying a "lefty" IWB holster for off-duty carry, I used my "righty" holster. At first, it seemed awkward to draw as a "lefty", especially since the butt of the pistol was facing forward.


That's a crossdraw carry....and it's good that it worked for your situation.

It's also a fine example of how crossdraw is the best way to carry for weak hand draw.
Stats show that many shootings involve wounds to the strong side arms and/or hands.

Carrying concealed and then trying to draw weak hand from behind the strong side hip is, indeed, very difficult and slow.
.

Descendant
April 10, 2009, 06:25 PM
Is it too late to chime in?
I recently broke my right collar bone, and being right-handed I am forced to try cross draw. There was no way I can reach back for a strong side draw. So...it feels comfortable and safe. Thanks for the insights. Any thoughts on a good holster for my j frame?
Thanks.

EricReynolds
April 14, 2009, 11:06 PM
I haven't read anyone mentioning the use of a shoulder holster as it pertains to cross draw as opposed to a waist holster. As far as comfort goes, you can't beat it. Your weapon won't dig in to your hip at all. What about tactically? What about as far as concealability?

teeroux
April 14, 2009, 11:22 PM
There is no sweeping or over sweeping the target if when you draw you do some of the steps as a strong hand draw. Draw the gun from the hoster while the support hand comes to the gun in ready position(remember while never sweaping the bore across the support hand or body)then push the gun forward into line with the target same as strongside.

pax
April 14, 2009, 11:55 PM
Descendant ~

Please go ahead and start a fresh thread. This one wasn't one of the best to begin with, and at 3 years old it's a bit stale.

Closed.

pax