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View Full Version : Gun vs Knife [Graphic !!]


mete
March 15, 2006, 09:18 PM
There were some recent comments that you shouldn't draw on a knife . www.jungletraining.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3159 ...CORRECTION ! -this is a photo of a prison inmate after a fight with another inmate , not an officer !!! However it illustrates the damage a knife can do !!! --If he has a knife you are to shoot immediately !!!

atlctyslkr
March 15, 2006, 09:52 PM
That's messed up! I'm glad were getting a Florida law here real soon so that I don't have to worry about whether or not it's justified.

01locksmith
March 15, 2006, 10:09 PM
A knife is a deadly weapon and so is a hammer, ball bat ect. Come at me with anything like that and thou shall be shot!

SD_Chop
March 15, 2006, 10:38 PM
they say for officers the min. safe distance for someone with and edged weapon is 21ft

BeachHead
March 16, 2006, 03:09 AM
I read an article about the "21 ft. rule" a while back stating that in the time it takes the average person to react to a charging assailant and draw his weapon, the badguy who was originally 21 feet away could close the gap and be within striking distance. Waste 'em.

azurefly
March 16, 2006, 04:20 AM
atlctyslkr, It's my understanding that Florida has that law in effect since October of 2005. Rejoice! You are legally permitted to use deadly force if you (reasonably) believe yourself to be threatened with grievous bodily harm or death -- even if you are not in your house, and even if you could theoretically feasibly retreat.

The requirement to retreat was crap. It meant putting yourself at risk of deadly harm -- for what? -- just because ninnies don't like the idea of people actually fighting back against a criminal attacker and possibly killing him. I say, what's the big sadness if we do exactly that?! There was a societal good being served by sparing and running away from violent criminals?! :barf:

-azurefly

LICCW
March 16, 2006, 11:46 AM
I should nor have looked at that before lunch. Lost my appetite. If I read my local laws right, defense of justification is met when you are in fear of having grievous bodily harm done to you. Damage like what was done to that inmate can be done with a box cutter. They will cut to the quick. You attack me with a knife and your getting shot. I think its critical to add close in gun fighting skills to anyone training. You must learn how to draw and shoot effectively when you are within the 21 feet zone. In fact, in an urban environment 21 feet is a large distance. Subways, buses, train platforms, etc. Even with situational awarness on your side, you will proably have to react with an attacker very close to you. Sobering pictures.

SW_fan
March 16, 2006, 11:59 AM
That is the last time he will make that mistake..!!!!!!!!!

Those are some nasty woulds.

High Planes Drifter
March 16, 2006, 12:50 PM
Yowzer! That is some awfull wounds, the guy is sliced up like a picnic roast.

Capt Charlie
March 16, 2006, 01:14 PM
One of our officers was working a store security job off duty years back, when he tried to stop a shoplifter from leaving the store. He never even saw the knife, but it left him on the floor with his intestines hanging out.

He drew to shoot the guy, and the manager jumped in front of him. Said he didn't want to get sued :mad: .

Don't EVER underestimate someone with an edged weapon.

fisherman66
March 16, 2006, 01:21 PM
I should have known better. The temptation to open a thread marked "Graphic" is so alluring. It gets me every time.

Those are some of the most nasty wounds I have ever seen. I'd make an awful doctor.

woodland
March 16, 2006, 02:09 PM
The guy is probably very lucky he was overweight. If you look at the rib cut, it just barely got into the muscle. All that yellow bumpy looking stuff is fat. Same with his back and chest. That would also help explain why he is not gushing blood. No blood in fat. If he had no fat, most of those cuts would have probably been to the bone, and cut a lot of bigger blood vessels.

See Spacemanspiff! Your integral tactical balistic armor isn't just for bullets!!!! :D

Lutefisk
March 16, 2006, 03:05 PM
Sure, it hurts like hell, but those are typical "flesh wounds" we hear so much about. He's sitting up because no vital organs were hit-I hope there are no facial lacerations.
They will stich the crap out of him and put him on antibiotics for months probably.
This also proves the durability of the human body in reality versus what we have grown accostomed to seeing on TV and movies.
And yeah, for the terrible scars he will have, he probably should have shot first.

jcoiii
March 16, 2006, 03:20 PM
they say for officers the min. safe distance for someone with and edged weapon is 21ft

Yep, I got drilled on that at the academy, even though I was drawn and on target prior to 21 feet, the Training Officer said I should have shot him at 21 feet. (I happened to disagree since I was already drawn and ready to fire. I thought that I could give him another step or two. When he didn't stop, he got two to the chest.)

It is important only in theory, because on or off duty, if a guy makes any movements with a knife that I interpret to be threatening to me, my gun comes out. I don't care how far away the guy is. And I'll do my best to not shoot him before 21 feet :D

rapier144
March 16, 2006, 04:50 PM
That's going to leave a mark.

Mastrogiacomo
March 16, 2006, 05:06 PM
Did that guy actually live through that attack?

WhyteP38
March 16, 2006, 05:19 PM
If anyone ever asks you why you have a gun for self-defense, show them that picture. I doubt they'll ask you that question a second time. (And if they do, they'll never understand.)

WillBrayjr
March 16, 2006, 05:30 PM
I carry a knife but than again I don't go looking for a person to mug either. Therefore it's very unlikely that I'm going to get shot by someone that has a CCW. 95% of d--kheads look for little people like me to mug. Morale of the story: It's almost always the little dogs that pack the biggest bite:D Guns are effective but when a badguy is on your back before you now it, a knife is just as lethal.

Soon I plan on adding a 21in ASP extendable baton:)

joab
March 16, 2006, 06:15 PM
I'm glad were getting a Florida law here real soon so that I don't have to worry about whether or not it's justified.What law would that be?

Digital Chainsaw
March 16, 2006, 06:22 PM
There was a societal good being served by sparing and running away from violent criminals?!


--My thoughts exactly when I first learned of this stupid law the hard way when I was 18; no gun involved.

Picture this: January, 1992: The short of it was, this big, old, teamster-looking guy in a parking lot started some trouble, kicked my car and then took a swing at me. His punch missed, but none of mine did. Problem was, the jackass didn't know when to quit, and kept getting back up to fight. I thought I had better leave before I had to kill the idiot. Well, of course, a lot of upright, concerned citizens (none of whom saw him attack me, or lifted a finger to help who they thought was the apparent "victim") took down my tag and called the police. Not a bright move, leaving the scene, I now realize, but I was 18...

Anyway, when I called the police back to my house (I didn't go directly home and they had left a business card) there were enough police cars in my yard that it looked like a friggin drug raid. I remember one of the cops asking me if I feared the man that attacked me, to which I replied, "yes". Then the cop asked, "so why didn't you run?" I thought this was a stupid question, but I replied honestly and said, "I face my fears, I don't run from them". I was then informed of this whole "duty to retreat" BS. I had never heard of anything so stupid in my life. I thought this through for the next few days (in the Pinellas County Hilton) and it still made no sense. Basically, the message the government was sending was that criminals could assault and/or batter anyone they pleased and all law-abiding citizens could do was run or cower in fear.

Well, it took 13 years, but they finally see it my way here in good ol' FLA.

Digital Chainsaw
March 16, 2006, 06:33 PM
Quote:
I'm glad were getting a Florida law here real soon so that I don't have to worry about whether or not it's justified.

What law would that be?

--Florida recently abolished the "duty to retreat" law I spoke of above, meaning, in short, that if you are in any place you have a lawful right to be, you can stand your ground and fight back, using deadly force if necessary to defend your or another's life or to prevent great bodily harm from occuring to you or another.

Shakazulu
March 16, 2006, 06:36 PM
Knives are excellent backup CCW, especially folding. A number of things can be accomplished with a knife that a firearm lacks. First off, within three feet a handgun can easily be grabbed by an attacker and a struggle insues. No on in their right mind would reach to grab a blade. Secondly, folding knives can be used without even flipping the blade open. Simply holding the closed knife tightly in a fist, hardening your punch, can be lethal. Also, not alot of people, even criminals have been around guns, they aren't aware of what they are capable of, and would respond much more to the sight of a knife. Everyone's been cut before. Lastly, the aftermath. It might look much more humane to a liberal, anti-gun judge when explaning how you defended yourself with a knife so you wouldn't have to pull your firearm.

WillBrayjr
March 16, 2006, 06:48 PM
Michigan has that "Duty to Retreat" law too, and I unfortunately exprianced it first hand. A "family" member physically assaulted by shoving me into a corner than took a swing at me. How the heck was I supposed to retreat? In any case wasn't just going to stand there and let anyone hit me, so I returned the favor and threw a hard left and fractured the person's nose in two places. My "family" wouldn't let me call the police but they allowed the other family member to :mad:

Morale of this story: I have no faith in the Justice system and have a bitter taste in my mouth when it comes to LE :(


Shakazulu,
A badguy is more likely to back away from a gun than a knife. The nice thing about a knife is you can deploy it without the badguy knowing it until it's too late:D

Shakazulu
March 16, 2006, 07:06 PM
I dunno Will. Within three feet I'd honestly take the knife. If the assaliant is someone bigger and stronger, a handgun that close might give you a 50/50 chance. My opinion is that when that close the assaliant isn't going to run, no. His natural reaction to the remove the threat, grabbing the gun. His sub-concious knows he can still be shot while retreating. A knife on the other hand is much more scary in my opinion when in that three foot radius. His sub-concious knows that retreating from the knife is much more easier then trying to attack it.

Rightwinger
March 16, 2006, 07:17 PM
I just can't believe that "defending yourself" is a crime in certain states... Makes me sicker than any graphic pictures ever could.:barf:

WillBrayjr
March 16, 2006, 07:25 PM
I'm not arguing that the knife isn't effective at close range. I have trained with edged weapons in the martial arts.

joab
March 16, 2006, 07:31 PM
Florida recently abolished the "duty to retreat" law I spoke of above, meaning, in short, that if you are in any place you have a lawful right to be, you can stand your ground and fight back, using deadly force if necessary to defend your or another's life or to prevent great bodily harm from occuring to you or another.That's a very long way from not having to worry whether it's justified or not
And that law, recognizing your right to respond to a direct physical threat, came into effect five months ago.
http://www.flsenate.gov/session/index.cfm?Mode=Bills&Submenu=1&BI_Mode=ViewBillInfo&Billnum=0249&Year=2005

arabian cowboy
March 16, 2006, 07:47 PM
i have also been burned by the law for fighting back against an attack. it was high school and, you know, kids in high school get into fights. well i fought back and was informed by the appropriate authorities that there "is never a good reason to fight."

steelheart
March 16, 2006, 07:55 PM
One of our officers was working a store security job off duty years back, when he tried to stop a shoplifter from leaving the store. He never even saw the knife, but it left him on the floor with his intestines hanging out.

He drew to shoot the guy, and the manager jumped in front of him. Said he didn't want to get sued I hope the officer lived and sued the crap out of the manager!! That right there is the single most stupid, ignorant, asinine act I have ever heard of - and I've heard of some really stupid acts!!

i fought back and was informed by the appropriate authorities that there "is never a good reason to fight."
So in order to be a good example, I'm absoultely certain "The Authorities" stand there and let an attacker beat on them when attacked.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

joab
March 16, 2006, 07:56 PM
and was informed by the appropriate authorities that there "is never a good reason to fight."same here. They put me in the army to teach me that:confused:

Rightwinger
March 16, 2006, 08:14 PM
At school,. a long time ago, I once caught a punch to the stomache... Saw it comming at the last second, clenched, and didn't get the wind knocked out of me. I reacted really quickly.

Hit the kid in the right temple, and he was O-U-T!

I was supended out of school, and told to write an appology note by the principle. My father told the principle to kiss his ass. Probably the most proud I've been in my life. He'd taught me to defend myself and I did. I spent my suspention playing video games at the mall, going out to movies, and practicing for a hockey tournament with my father, who took the week off of work.

At least the had the gaul to suspend the other guy too.

Shakazulu
March 16, 2006, 08:19 PM
Sucks when they teach you to stand up for yourself and then when you do, they suspend you for it.

riverrat66
March 17, 2006, 08:49 PM
Check this out. This guy was caught cheating on his wife and she attacked him with an ax! I think he's gonna have one hell of a headache in the morning. I must warn you, it's pretty graphic!

WillBrayjr
March 18, 2006, 07:15 AM
I'm surprised that he survived. If he cheated for no reason then he got what he deserved:D

PSE
March 18, 2006, 07:24 AM
ever seen what a soda can ripped in half can do to flesh?
nonone is ever unarmed.

riverrat66
March 18, 2006, 07:29 AM
If he cheated for no reason then he got what he deserved
Will, you can't be serious. You have to put a little more value on life then that. Apparently the wife caught her estranged husband in bed with the family housekeeper but still that's no excuse for nearly killing him.

AttackTurtle
March 18, 2006, 07:49 AM
Knifes scare me more. You can't really miss with a knife. Sadly, I think most bad guys arent going to brandish it if they intend on murdering you. They are just going to walk up to you and your just going to think he punched you.

WillBrayjr
March 18, 2006, 01:19 PM
I bet he learned his lesson;)

fisherman66
March 18, 2006, 01:31 PM
I bet he learned his lesson

What was the lesson? Am I to be excused for attempting to murder my estranged wife if I catch her in bed with someone else. I don't think this represents main stream thinking or legal interpretation.

WillBrayjr
March 18, 2006, 04:01 PM
His lesson is what happened to him for cheating. He got punished for being a bad boy:D

I myself wouldn't take it to that extreme. I will make anyone who cheats on me pay. I'm not going to hack the woman up;)

riverrat66
March 18, 2006, 04:07 PM
I think this woman my have gone a bit too far! :confused:

WillBrayjr
March 18, 2006, 04:46 PM
Cheating is one of the reasons why I'm very picky. I will not rush into a relationship.

thorysus
March 18, 2006, 06:46 PM
Al those pics are nasty examples of mele or edged weapons (my personal favorite) but to just say he cheated and deserves it seem s kindda out there as well. I dont know if that was your intent or not but it seems like an extrem end of revenge to me. theres other ways besides that (like a divorce and taking all the money) to get even. All thoguh i think the modern lack of males rights in divorce is wrong, but thats a whole other issue.

Mastrogiacomo
March 18, 2006, 07:13 PM
I agree it was an extreme response. Personally, if they were having martial problems, she should have let it go and move on since it was obvious that he did. I never feel that domestic violence is ever justified no matter who's the offender.

Laura

CWO4USCGRET
March 18, 2006, 07:50 PM
"A knife is a deadly weapon and so is a hammer, ball bat ect. Come at me with anything like that and thou shall be shot!" And inside of 20 feet you will be cut before you can draw your weapon, engage the target, and fire. It has nothing to do if you are average Joe or trained LEO. If you do not know how to respond to someone with a knife then being seriously injured is a strong likelihood. Three months in the matrooms of FLETC taught me that powerful lesson. For every move there is a counter move; the bad guys practive their moves...

I once did Law Enforcement Boardings for the Coast Guard. Our base was across the street from a minimum security federal correctional institution. Several days after we were practicing arrest and defensive tactics, the convicts were practicing counter movements.

Smoke Screen
March 18, 2006, 08:21 PM
Just "shows to go you" what a knife/hatchet (even though it looked like a garden spade) can do to you. That guy had to have died. I used to work in the E.R. back home and I saw TONS of knife wounds. Enough to scare me into shooting someone if they pulled a knife on me. A lot of damage. :confused:

Powderman
March 18, 2006, 08:46 PM
I'm surprised that he survived.

I don't think he did. Looked like a picture of a post-mortem to me.

And, by the way--the 21 foot rule applies for someone who has their weapon already drawn, and on target! If you are carrying, or an LEO, you will NOT clear your holster before you start taking damage from a determined attacker.

Shakazulu
March 18, 2006, 09:03 PM
smooth is fast

riverrat66
March 18, 2006, 10:03 PM
Here's the entire article. I didn't include it with the pictures because it was a little long but probably should have. Sorry about that. This is absolutely unbelievable.

Riverrat66


Subject: Fw: DON'T CHEAT ON YOUR WIFE

Emilo Savez was critically wounded tonight when his wife, in a fit of rage, attacked her husband with a wood ax, lodging it in his forehead. The 36 year old father of three was rushed to St.Vincent's hospital when his frantic wife called police after swinging an ax into his face. Apparently Maria Savez caught her estranged husband in bed with the family housekeeper, and in a fit of rage ran to the garage and got a wood ax, then proceeded back to their bedroom.

Once there a struggle ensued, and Mrs. Savez ended up on top of her husband, then swung the ax and impaled Mr. Savez in his forehead.

Shocked surgeons spent six hours removing and repairing the damage from the ax, and surprisingly Mr. Savez is expected to make a full recovery.

Minor brain damage to the front temporal lobes is expected, but Mr. Savez is expected to be able to lead a normal life once his wounds have healed!

riverrat66
March 18, 2006, 10:17 PM
And, by the way--the 21 foot rule applies for someone who has their weapon already drawn, and on target! If you are carrying, you will NOT clear your holster before you start taking damage from a determined attacker.
BTW, Powderman is 100% correct. The attacker with the knife always has the advantage. If someone flashes a knife at me I'm gonna run and then start shooting, in that order. Or at least move to some cover and draw as I'm doing so. That's why it always pays to practice drawing and firing as you are moving.

Para Bellum
March 19, 2006, 05:07 AM
they say for officers the min. safe distance for someone with and edged weapon is 21ft
confirmed. Edged weapon at 21ft (7m) or closer: Keep shooting until your shootin shows effect.

delta58
March 19, 2006, 02:55 PM
Just remember, a knife never runs out of ammuntion!

mvpel
March 22, 2006, 11:10 PM
Saw "V for Vendetta" recently, perhaps? :D

CobrayCommando
March 22, 2006, 11:20 PM
Personally if I had a choice I would rather have a baseball bat then a knife. I would rather have a heavy long stick then a knife. A knife is more useful as a tool, as a last ditch weapon, or as if its your only concealable option.