PDA

View Full Version : Thunder Ranch and Gunsite graduates????


threegun
March 11, 2006, 06:28 AM
In the never ending quest to improve tactically, I was hoping that those members who have attended formal tactical pistol instruction, particularly advanced instruction, could share some of the information learned. Maybe post a recommended practice regiment or tactics that stood out in your mind as wow. Thanks guys.

threegun
March 12, 2006, 07:15 AM
Do they require every student sign a gag order LOL? Help us poor folks out here please.

Tim Burke
March 12, 2006, 08:36 AM
There's no way to distill down days of immersion instruction into a few sentences on the internet. I won't even try; the best I can do is to tell you to read Jeff Cooper's Principles of Personal Defense. At my recommendation, a friend took DHG 1 at TR a number of years ago, and his comment when he got home was, "I didn't know what I didn't know." If you don't understand, I can't explain it. If you do understand, then you should be able to figure out why you aren't getting any answers to your question.

Reddot47
March 13, 2006, 01:31 AM
I'm with threegun on this one. I came to this forum and to this particular part of the forum "Tactics and Training" to find some drills I could use to improve my shooting. All I have seen so far are anecdotal stories. I'm sure that there are members who have much to offer those of us who want to learn.

KC135
March 13, 2006, 10:05 AM
Buy some books:)

StressFire by Ayoob, Handgun Combatives by Spaulding, Fighting Smarter by Givens, The Snubby Revolver by Lovette. These would be a good start.

Find a range where you can set up sceneros, and shoot in more than one direction.

Pick up sceneros from IDPA that are realistic.

Be safe!!:D

It is not that I am unwilling to share with you, and if you e mail me I would be glad to meet with you one on one.:)

threegun
March 13, 2006, 11:03 AM
Tim and KC, Thanks for the tips. I have a practice regiment that I have been using and tweeking for years, already. I am always looking to get better though. It seems that for some years now I haven't gotten much new knowledge. Everything is about the same. I'm just hunting for that tactic that improves my chances. Like the 2-2-2 drill posted on the sightless in philly. I use to do that but we just called it double tapping three targets. Now they have 2-2-2 drill. I'm hunting for something different, something new, something better. Might not exist anymore who knows.

Tim Burke
March 13, 2006, 02:25 PM
There is no magic answer; anyone that claims there is is selling snake oil. Get the fundamentals down, then work on doing them better and faster than the other guy.

Reddot47
March 13, 2006, 03:02 PM
As new people come to this board they are probably not aware of some of the basic drills that one can use to start improving their skills. Let alone the more advanced drills.

I have a fantastic gun club 5 miles from where I live that I can set up practically any scenario. I was looking for the basic drills that didn't require a lot of setup time on my part. I shoot the IPSC, Bianci, Tactical Rifle, and Speed Steel competitions on the weekend so the scenario part of the practice is taken care of there.

David Armstrong
March 13, 2006, 04:01 PM
I was hoping that those members who have attended formal tactical pistol instruction, particularly advanced instruction, could share some of the information learned.
I can't speak for all, but the best bit of information you get from professional training is that nothing takes the place of good training. You can read all the books you want and practice all the drills you want, but it isn't even close to good quality training.

threegun
March 13, 2006, 04:08 PM
Red, A+. I get the feeling here that the older knowledgable guys kinda take the fend for yourself attitude. I hope I'm wrong. I also shoot competitively and very well I might add, still if someone has a drill to help keep situational awareness or one that drills getting to cover, ect that is superior to what I already do, that would be awesome. Never mind the newbee's as you mentioned, who could benefit from just about anything.

I'm not lucky enough to have an outdoor range that close. I have to travel 20 plus miles.

OBIWAN
March 13, 2006, 04:09 PM
Mr. Armstrong is correct

There is more to training than merely "getting the facts"

The instant correction is priceless

BY reading,watching videos, you run the risk of building bad habits by "doing it wrong" consistently

I know training can be expensive for some.....

But in many case, it is cheaper than a good pistol

threegun
March 13, 2006, 05:00 PM
David, We disagree. If a video shows me what you are being taught at Gunsite, I promise you that it can be learned. If a book describes with good detail the same tactics taught at Thunder Ranch, I promise you it can be learned. If friends "like you" shares with me what you are taught, it can be learned.

threegun
March 13, 2006, 05:11 PM
Obiwan,

BY reading,watching videos, you run the risk of building bad habits by "doing it wrong" consistently

I have developed bad habits in the past. Never from video or books however. On my own and from people who I thought knew their stuff.....yes. School cuts the learning curve but is not necessary.

brickeyee
March 13, 2006, 07:15 PM
Basic 'school drills' for Gunsite

3 yards, 1.5 sec, 2 shots COM, from the holster
5 yards, 2 sec, 2 shots COM, form the holster
10 yards, 5 sec, 2 shots COM, from the holster
15 yards, 7.5 sec, 2 shots COM, kneeling, from upright and from teh holster
25 yards, 10 sec, 2 shots COM, rollover prone, from upright and from the holster

Repeat until you hold on the A zone every time.
Work accuracy before time.
Time will come with repetition.
Gunsite has some tapes available, but they really are not a substitute for a trained instructor.

Rightwinger
March 13, 2006, 07:35 PM
My training usually consists of replicating stages from the last Action Pistol comp I attended (never more than two weeks ago) and trying to bring down my times. Shot placement should always be your number one concern (one hit in the "A" is better than ten in the "D"), but once you're hitting all "A"s time is your enemy.
Reloads too, a ton of reloading practice...

Glenn E. Meyer
March 13, 2006, 08:09 PM
Being an educator, I can state from this profession that while reading and practice on your own is fine - it is only an adjunct to having a professional critique your work and make suggestions.

Take writing - one can read books on creative writing all you want. However, without a good editor it is very rare to produce a masterpiece.

Even the greatest pro golfers go back to their mentors for supervision and correction.

One can't disprove a negative - that it is not possible to become an excellent gunfighter without training and supervision. It may happen sometime. However, nowhere in sports or training psychology is it recommended.

My good friends, Steve Moses and Karl Rehn, all master teachers - still train under folks like Tom Givens to touch up their skill levels.

The bottom line is that finances may preclude training. I understand that - however, the position that self-taught folks reach the level of competence that the well trained have is not supported in many performance disciplines.

BTW, if folks who are well trained at Thunder Ranch or other schools, then critique and instruct you - that's training.

threegun
March 13, 2006, 08:45 PM
Glenn, Agreed. Having been forced to do it the hard way I know it can be done but it took longer and with more bumps in the road.

Someone once asked for my credentials (in tactical training). We had been debating and they used my lack of formal tactical training as a way to discredit my post. Needless to say, I took offense to it. I can hold my own against most "tactically trained" guys. In fact when chewing the fat at the range, I have discussed things taught at the elite schools with guys who had just attended them. Things discussed were not new and many simply had different names. I out performed most of them in both speed and accuracy. So my tactics were comperable to those taught at the schools and my constant training allowed me to shoot faster and straighter than most yet my voice shouldn't have any credibility because I don't poses a diploma. Now you know why I stress that it can be done without school.

Glenn E. Meyer
March 13, 2006, 09:09 PM
Oh, Yawn - drop the Glocktalk crap already. Back to the ignore list.

threegun
March 14, 2006, 05:47 AM
Brickeyee, Rightwinger, Thanks for the tips.

threegun
March 15, 2006, 07:23 AM
Erick, If I had the money back then, I would have gone to the shoot schools. My road was definately bumpy and as Glenn pointed out (I hadn't thought about it) I did benefit from training of knowledgable friends. Our disagreement comes from the belief of many that a high level of proficiency cannot be achieved without formal training. After all someone invented the drill used today right.

OBIWAN
March 15, 2006, 11:20 AM
For those that don't think they can afford it

Do the math.....

say I am using 9mm

Shooting 300 rounds every day for a month costs (without weekends) is $500-$600

threegun
March 15, 2006, 12:56 PM
Obiwan, I shoot on average once a week 100 shots or so. If I diverted those funds to schooling it would take about 8 months of weekly practice cancelations to save the bread. Remember you are required to bring 1000 rounds of ammo with you to the schools. Sacrificing the new gun for school is more practical.

threegun
March 15, 2006, 01:17 PM
Obiwan, You shoot 300 rounds per day 5 days a week? Lucky man.

Win62a
March 15, 2006, 05:47 PM
I've been to TR one time and that was just before the TX operation closed down and they moved the whole shootin' match to OR.

http://www.frontiernet.net/~netim/thunderranch.html for the write up.

I think you'll get good training at either facility.

David Armstrong
March 15, 2006, 05:56 PM
David, We disagree. If a video shows me what you are being taught at Gunsite, I promise you that it can be learned. If a book describes with good detail the same tactics taught at Thunder Ranch, I promise you it can be learned.
A nice claim, but one that fails to meet the test of reality. Would you thinnk a person who had read lots of books and watched lots of video on how to perform heart surgery would have much success as a heart surgeon? Of course not. Or, I don't know, given your record of claims you might!
It is interesting to me that the only people who ever claim they can be as good on their own as those with professional training are those who have not had any professional training.

OBIWAN
March 15, 2006, 06:01 PM
No...Iwas talking about the amount of training you would need to match the value of having an instructor work with you

threegun
March 15, 2006, 09:22 PM
David, Comparing gun handling and tactics with heart surgery is a bit of a stretch. No way to prove either of us right except to say that somebody invented the training. Have you never developed your own training? I would think so given your expierience. I had to develope my own training as well as copy the professionals whenever possible. Funny that much of what I was doing on my own is pretty close to alot of what the big schools do.

It is interesting to me that the only people who ever claim they can be as good on their own as those with professional training are those who have not had any professional training.

It is just as interesting to me, how many graduates of the professional trainers could be outdone, by one without professional training. I stand by my belief that one doesn't need shooting school to become proficient.

Come to Florida and lets hit the range or even better a match. Spring break is almost here Prof. Armstrong be a great time. Loser buys lunch.

threegun
March 15, 2006, 09:28 PM
Obiwan, If I was able to shoot 300 rounds perday I would be a professional. I have seen what a shooter firing a mear 500 rounds per week can achieve much less 1500.

David Armstrong
March 17, 2006, 01:34 PM
David, Comparing gun handling and tactics with heart surgery is a bit of a stretch.
Both of them involve specific skills and training issues. You claim that anyone can get as well trained by reading books and watch in gvideos as taking training. That is nonsense, no matter what example you use. You can talk about driving cars, appraising property, shooting, swimming, or any other sport or activity that requires specific skills that one must learn. No way to prove either of us right except to say that somebody invented the training.
Nonsense again. It is proven every day, in many fields. Your refusal to recognize that does not change the facts.
Have you never developed your own training?
Yes, I have. And I realized how inadequate that was the first time I got some professional training.
Funny that much of what I was doing on my own is pretty close to alot of what the big schools do.
Given that you have never attended any of the big schools (or little for that matter) that is another claim without any support.
It is just as interesting to me, how many graduates of the professional trainers could be outdone, by one without professional training.
That claim again is rather specious given your recognized history. It also is indicative of how little you understand the purpose of good training and what it is designed to do.
I stand by my belief that one doesn't need shooting school to become proficient.
Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. That does not mean everyone is also entitled to their own facts. f course we are not talking about shooting schools, we are discussing professional training. The fact that you would mix the two up is rather telling.
Come to Florida and lets hit the range or even better a match.
I find nothing in Florida that attracts me. If I want to shoot a match there a plenty around here. Thanks anyway.

threegun
March 17, 2006, 05:52 PM
Let me get this straight. In the beginning the gun was invented. Joe six pack decides to become proficient in gun handling and tactics. What gun school does he attend? What professional instructor has materialized out of thin air? You say that it cannot be done yet TR and GS instructors had to either invent the material taught or obtain it from someone who invented it. So it can be done.

Aside from proper mechanics most of what is taught can easily be copied visually. I'm sorry that you are only able to learn with hands on training. I am able to watch your movements and duplicate them.....it ain't that hard.

from thunder ranchTactical Handgun - TH
Course addresses basic skills of safety, drawing, loading, malfunctions as well as some advanced skills i.e. distance firing, injury drills, ground fighting, shooting and moving as well as other issues for defensive use of handgun.


A few friends of mine can watch and learn also and they aren't professors. My wife said that some people need hands on so I won't argue. Those of you who need hands on must have the training. I will say it again since you missed it, I agree that if you can afford formal training get it and save yourself alot of time and a few bumps in the road. If you cannot afford it, read, buy some video's, and practice like crazy and you will be just fine. For you to suggest otherwise is nonsense.

f course we are not talking about shooting schools, we are discussing professional training. The fact that you would mix the two up is rather telling.

Pretty petty Dave.

To bad we can't attend TR or GS together.