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Wheel-Gunner
March 11, 2006, 05:02 AM
For those that actually do carry on a regular basis, how many times have you actually drawn your gun? What kind of situation made you reveal your firearm? Please understand that I'm not trying to pry into your personal business, but rather trying to learn from others experiences. I also have a Concealed Weapons Permit, but have yet to actually conceal on a regular bases. I'd really like to get an idea on what is approriate and what is not as far as acting with your carry firearm. Thanks in advance for all your comments!

threegun
March 11, 2006, 05:46 AM
Wheel, You are only legal "technically" pulling your gun if you are in fear of death or great bodily injury. Of course the law doesn't take into consideration the grey area in protecting yourself. When that shady character starts to invade your safe zone but hasn't made any "threats" yet. I have pulled my gun dozens of times however the vast majority of times only I new my gun was out. So to answer your question, I pull my gun on anything that I feel is a direct threat. I just don't show it to the threat.

Example. You are in your car stopped at a red light. The driver ahead suddenly opens his door and exits toward your car. My gun is in my hand now. The driver was only going to his trunk to insure it was locked. I remained prepared for the potential carjacking and nobody was offended or laws broken.

Another. You are walking from the mall. You are almost to your car when you notice a man on an intercept course with you. If I can't turn and go back, I change speed. If the man corrects his path to intercept me again, I covertly pull my gun. When the threat gets within speaking distance I tell him not to approach any closer. I say leave me/us (if with family) alone. If he insisits in approaching I retreat to maintain the safety zone and change tones increasing the decibles and now ask that he not rob me/us. I say that I/we have no money, please don't rob me/us. This is usually enough to disuade anyone. My gun is ready if it isn't enough. It is my last resort but it still must be ready. Study the tueller drill as to how fast a threat can be on you.

mete
March 11, 2006, 05:56 AM
After carrying for many years I had my hand on my gun only once !Elmer Keith said that the best way to win a gunfight is to avoid it !! I agree. Alert, aware avoid !! If you shoot it out with the BG you might get killed .It's not an excercise in macho.It's just like your seatbelt - you don't want to get into an accident ,you don't expect to but just in case you wear the seat belt.

XavierBreath
March 11, 2006, 07:28 AM
how many times have you actually drawn your gun?Three.
What kind of situation made you reveal your firearm?Fear for my life. The third time, fear for my and my child's life.

One might ask how it could be that one man could be in fear for his life to that extent three times. I have a job that takes me into dangerous areas. I have never had to draw my gun in those areas. The three places I have had to draw my gun were my own home, my own property, and a Wal-Mart parking lot.

I have had to fire my gun to preserve my life once as a civilian. I am including it in the number. I do not wish to discuss that incident on an open forum.

I'd really like to get an idea on what is approriate and what is not as far as acting with your carry firearm.What is appropriate is rife with opinion and speculation. Know what is legal in your state, and then form your own boundaries within those limitations, not to exceed them. Realize that when you draw your gun you will likely have to use it. Drawing a gun does not diminish a conflict, it escalates the conflict dramatically. Not everyone will back down from the muzzle of your gun. It is not a magic talisman to protect you from evil.

If you fire your gun, the act can never be taken back. There will be consequences, whether you kill or not. You will suffer legal, social, professional, financial, mental and spiritual consequences. You must live with those consequences for the rest of your life. If the use of the weapon was legal, and you, yourself, can live with the consequences, then nobody has a right to say the use was inappropriate. Nobody.

threegun
March 11, 2006, 07:40 AM
Walmart parking lots seem to be very dangerous places.

Mannlicher
March 11, 2006, 07:57 AM
Wheel, carrying a handgun is just not that big a deal. Use common sense, keep things in perspective, and dont be stupid. That will cover about 99% of your concerns. The likelihood of your ever having to defend your self is pretty remote. While the probability is remote, the stakes are high. Be safe.

GeorgeF
March 11, 2006, 09:28 AM
It is very important to keep situational awareness. Know your surroundings. I notice more going on around me now that I carry than I did before.

THe closest I came is going back to my car in the city with my wife. We are in parking garage and getting in elevator to retrieve car. Just as door is closing a guy crams his hand in to 'catch the elevator.'

Immediately my hand is in my pocket (Colt Mustang Pocketlite) and the safety is off. The guy is some twenty-something kid who looks inebriated - and happy. He just leans in the corner and goes along for the ride. Doesnt even get out at our level.

No big deal, and no need to draw or challenge. But best to be prepared if the situation does escalate. Just use common sense.

"Does this situation warrant me shooting my firearm?" Thats the question you should ask before drawing your pistol. Different part of the country have different laws regarding 'brandishing' - and if you DO have to brandish, you would be advised to report the incident to police. Other person could report you and you could find yourself in a messy situation.

TooTall
March 11, 2006, 09:51 AM
Mannlicher gets an "A"! The CCW "trend" is still relatively new, which is why there are so many questions being asked about it. When the "trend" becomes more "normalized", CCW will NOT be as big a deal to you as it may be right now. It will be a PART of you, and will be almost as routine as putting on your trousers.

I've legally carried for 35+ years, as a LEO and as a retiree. I don't carry "24/7", for I don't carry while I'm in the house, but I don't leave home without it!

Add to that, I don't do a lot of "What if...." thinking. There is NO scenario that you can conjure in your mind that will fit ANY real-life situation that you might find yourself in. That's why you need to use good COMMON SENSE, practise with your firearm to know it implicitly, be aware of your surroundings, keep yourself physically fit and healthy, and don't go LOOKING for trouble! Know what the laws are and keep current with them, for they tend to change quite often.

Lastly, think BEYOND that CCW firearm being your ONLY resort! Get it in your mind that "retreat" might not be a bad idea! Exercise your brain and realize that it is your BEST weapon! Add to that, there are other "weapons" that you might be able to use before escalating to the "last resort"! Fists, feet, elbows, knees! Maybe even firing a "warning shot" before aiming at someone might save you a lot of grief!

fairview mick
March 11, 2006, 09:55 AM
I've had a carry license for over a year. I'm retired and for something to do, I'm a currier for a jeweler. I carry diamonds and high dollar watches on a daily basis. Once in the past year I was slightly concerned that some one was acting strange near me. I DID NOT pull the weapon, but my hand was inside my jacket on the butt of the gun.
I was very relieved that the situation did not play out. The last thing in the world I want to do is even show my weapon, let alone have to shoot some one, but I definitely would if my family or I were in danger.

sterno
March 11, 2006, 09:57 AM
I carry everytime I leave the house. I've never had to pull it. However, there have been afew times in my car when I saw something/someone that didn't seem right and I pulled up my shirt alittle to facilitate drawing, if need be. Thank god need has never been.

litework
March 11, 2006, 10:12 AM
Add to that, there are other "weapons" that you might be able to use before escalating to the "last resort"! Fists, feet, elbows, knees! Maybe even firing a "warning shot" before aiming at someone might save you a lot of grief!

When I'm carrying, my brain and my firearm are the only weapons I'll use. Concealed carry holsters are very different than open carry holsters in that there's very little to "lock" them in place. There's no way I'm going to give anyone an opportunity to take my weapon from me if I have a choice. There will be no fists, feet, elbows and knees for me. It's either retreat or draw...maybe both.

So far, I've never even come close to drawing my weapon on a person. There have been times when I was glad my gun was on my person and not in the car, but I've never been presented a situation where I couldn't back away and avoid further confrontation.

I'm not aware of any federal laws that state you can only pull your weapon "in fear of death or great bodily injury." Concealed carry is regulated by state and local ordnances. You should become familiar with the laws governing concealed carry in your state and local community.

18DAI
March 11, 2006, 10:26 AM
If you have a CCW ,a good instructor should have covered all this with you. In many jurisdictions ,drawing ,"showing" or flashing your gun is a criminal offense. You only draw your gun if your in fear for your life ,or beleive great bodily injury is impending. Regards 18DAI.

threegun
March 11, 2006, 10:26 AM
Litework,

When I'm carrying, my brain and my firearm are the only weapons I'll use.

Amen. No sense in arming an otherwise unarmed man. Besides not everyone has the tools to go hand to hand. Now I will deploy pepper spray if availible, especially at work.

FallsGuy
March 11, 2006, 10:37 AM
From the CCW class I took -- don't pull your weapon unless you intend to fire.
Don't even think of firing to protect any property! Only protect your life or the life of another. Always retreat if possible. Sounds pretty good to me!.... but having your hand on it and being ready to go is prudent.

WhyteP38
March 11, 2006, 11:37 AM
I have carried for only a few months, so my answers may be skewed for lack of sufficient time. Anyway ...

A) I have had plenty of times where I was glad to have a weapon on me, but the situations didn't warrant anything more than extra awareness.

B) I have had perhaps three times when I felt it appropriate to have my hand ready to pull the weapon, but I was not actually gripping it.

C) I have never had to grip my weapon because I thought I might need to pull it.

D) I have never had to pull my weapon.

I know my area well enough to know what places to avoid. Response A above has happened in the places I consider "safe" (which I admit is a relative, not absolute, term; else, I wouldn't be carrying there in the first place). Responses A and B have happened when I have unintentionally entered unfamiliar places that turned out to be on the rough side.

springmom
March 11, 2006, 01:45 PM
....and follow them. FallsGuy, here in Texas it is legal to protect property with deadly force in some circumstances; in other states, there is a duty to retreat; states vary on their laws. Know YOUR state's laws. Then look into your own soul and ask yourself: when would I shoot? For myself, although Texas allows it, I wouldn't shoot just for property. My car can be replaced and isn't worth a life, not even a BG's life. Now, if he CARJACKS me, that's different because that's a personal threat; but some kid hotwiring my car in my driveway isn't going to get a hollowpoint COM.

I keep my gun handy, but have never had to pull it and hope I never will.

Springmom

FallsGuy
March 11, 2006, 02:03 PM
Springmom,

True, every state is different. In Ohio you cannot defend property with deadly force. The threat has to be to your life or to serious bodily harm.

Garand Illusion
March 11, 2006, 02:53 PM
A lot of good posts above.

In Colorado, we can use physical force to defend property (i.e. restrain a guy or kick him in the knee -- or a little higher) but can only use deadly force, including brandishing, for defense of ourselves or others.

I think a very simple rule is simply to not act ANY differently when carrying a weapon than when not. Don't treat people differently, don't go to different parts of town, don't enter into situations that you wouldn't if not armed, etc. The carried gun is for when nothing else works out, and when without using it you would suffer serious injury or death.

But ... while I agree with most everything above, I would say that firing a warning shot is a really bad idea. The bullet will come down somewhere, and if you have enough cause to legally fire a warning shot then you have enough cause to shoot COM.

Take the above into consideration, and as has been said -- carrying a gun is just not a big deal. My biggest concern is carrying safely, since given where I live and etc. it's doubtful I'll actually have to use it, and I'd feel damn stupid if I blew my kneecap off holstering my weapon for a trip to the grocery store.

And to answer the original question ... I've never drawn my weapon or seriously considered it or even put my hand to it to prepar. But there have been a number of times when I was glad to have it with me just because I wasn't sure exactly what was happening.

Hkmp5sd
March 11, 2006, 02:55 PM
I have carried a CCW 100% of the time since 1987 and have never had to draw the firearm.

jarhed
March 11, 2006, 03:51 PM
There have been several times I have placed my hand on my CCW in a "yellow" situation. Only once have I had to display it. I was waiting outside a 7/11 at 0130 in a not too great part of town. Just came back from a trip and my friend wanted some soda before being dropped off a couple of blocks away. Midsummer,windows down still belted in and here comes John Q Public. "Say man you got some money?" "I need some money." "Come on now man give me some money." NOT an obvious robbery but based on the situation, dress code of John Q and the time/area I was "uncomfortable". As he started towards me my hand went to the pistol and when he started speaking my free hand uncovered the gun.(I carry IWB right draw most times.) After the "give me some money" I told him "Leave me alone". By the time he got within about 8' I had added something like "All I have for you is bullets." He then noticed the gun and left the area at a high rate of speed. When he turned away I was one step away from drawing and presenting. This young gentleman was NOT a panhandler,NOT a drunken bum and NOT collecting for his church group. If I had seen a gun, knife,etc. there would have been no question. I have driven around the block, changed sides of the street, gone to another store,waited in the car,waited inside a building,and waited for a crowd, to avoid a potential bad situation I thought I could see coming. My three rules to survive a gun fight:1. Don't be there. 2. Have a gun. 3. Be willing. I'm willing and have a gun but prefer not to be there.

smince
March 11, 2006, 03:54 PM
I've had my CCW since 1982. I have actually drawn a few times when I felt it was genuinely necessary. I've had my hand on my weapon ready to draw many more times. This has been enough to lower the threat level 99% of the time.

As I've posted before, you don't have to go looking for trouble, it is quite capable and ready to find you all on its on. You can try to avoid the "bad areas", but eventually, the bad guys have to come to the "good areas".

PaulBk
March 11, 2006, 04:09 PM
I have been carrying for years and have never even had to put my hand on the grip outside of the range.

-PB

Garand Illusion
March 12, 2006, 12:59 AM
My three rules to survive a gun fight:1. Don't be there. 2. Have a gun. 3. Be willing. I'm willing and have a gun but prefer not to be there.

Nicely put. That should be your signature.

Lycanthrope
March 12, 2006, 01:43 AM
I've carried since 1991 and have never had to draw.

I have, however, been backed around the trunk of my car by an advancing panhandler......and have been threatened verbally.

I work HARD to avoid trouble and know that in the instant you could draw your firearm, doesn't mean that it is right. It's not to be taken lightley.

DonR101395
March 12, 2006, 02:37 AM
Checkout packing.org they have alot of good infor for each state with links to your states liscensing authority etc.

To the original question, I've carried everyday since 26 Sept 1989. I lived in Spokane WA when I got my first permit. I've drawn twice, only one time did the other person know I had a weapon. The first time was in 1990 my wife (then fiance) and I were walking in the park downtown about 10p.m. and a bum pulled a knife and tried to rob us, his big error was being about 15 feet away so as I "complied with his wishes by getting my wallet from my left rear pocket" he was pretty surprised to see the wrong end of the 1911 I was carrying. I guess he wasn't expecting to rob a lefty. He ran I kept the pistol in my hand under my coat until we were at the car we saw a cop told him, he asked if we were ok took my name, address etc and I never heard anymore about it. The second time in late winter 1999 was at a gas station while traveling through Michigan and some crackhead looking guys were eyeing me and getting beligerent(sp) wanting money as I filled up. I put my hand in my jacket pocket as the "leader" approached and had my 649 pointed COM for our entire conversation as to why I wouldn't give him any money for wine. I paid for my gas and got back on I-94. Both of these times I was in fear of my life. The first time based on the knife and not knowing if he had buddies anyplace nearby, the second because there were six intoxicated guys who could have easily overpowered me and killed me for the pocket change I had. I made the decision if that was going to happen it would only be five guys overpowering me. Also, during the second incident I had a 1911 on my hip, but didn't see it as a proper time to present a weapon they hadn't shown a weapon or the ability other than the number of them to do bodily harm. Some will second guess pointing the weapon COM while talking to him, but my take on it was/is the only one who wins a fair fight is the won who cheats.

smince
March 12, 2006, 05:45 AM
but my take on it was/is the only one who wins a fair fight is the won who cheats.

"Always Cheat! Always Win!"-Clint Smith:D

LICCW
March 12, 2006, 09:23 AM
Funny thing, the situations that i wold have most needed a gun in during my life, I didn't have one on me, and now that I carry for work I have never been in a situation where I felt I needed to draw. I used to wrok in NYC when i first got out of college and I took trains, subways, etc. on a regular basis. I also worked in the family business on the weekends, I was a busy boy. Anyway, being in subways, tarins, and the streets of NYC before Rudy Guiliani cleaned up areas like Times Square taught me situational awareness. At that time pepper spray was even a no no in NYC. You couldn't leagally carry just about anything other than a small folding knife. I was accosted by bums, threatened by lunatics on the subway, saw "bystanding apathy" first hand, etc. Now that I am of higher means, and live in a nice part of the suburbs, and can legally carry "during the normal course of business" I draw upon the lessons learned from my 'ol work days in the city to avoid just about every potential problem I could practically face on a daily basis. So no, I've never had to draw, but I feel we all have more control over that than we may initially think by using that grandfather of all skills, situational awareness. I approach carrying from an avoidance view. If i'm doing a delivery and am thus carrying, I'll go the long way around to avoid going through some lowsy areas if possible. I feel you want to behave as if you are unarmed. Do the things you would do if you were not carrying first, then, knowing you are armed, use it only if absolutely necessary. Some guys fall into a syndrome of "I'm going to get milk at 2 AM if I feel like it, after all, I'm licensed to carry, so why should I not go. I feel like cereal right now! If someone tries to rob me, I've prepared." I'm not accusing anyone on TFL for this behavior, but I have heard guys at the range say stupid things like "I like double action revolvers because if someone comes in my house I wamt thenm to hear the cocking sound and scare the s**t out of 'em". Point is, carry, but use situational awareness (often just common sense) first. And don't worry.

WhyteP38
March 12, 2006, 10:15 AM
Some guys fall into a syndrome of "I'm going to get milk at 2 AM if I feel like it, after all, I'm licensed to carry, so why should I not go. I feel like cereal right now! If someone tries to rob me, I've prepared."
I've encountered that attitude before. That's when I begin asking questions.

"How do you know your gun or ammo won't malfunction?"
"How do you know you can draw your gun before the BG stabs or shoots you?"
"How do you know the BG isn't a better shot than you?"
"How do you know the BG doesn't have four or five buddies coming at you from different directions?"

Of course, all of those questions are valid anytime. But there are things you can avoid and things you can't. For the things you can't avoid, be prepared; that's the best you do.

For the things you can avoid ... there are two places to be during a gunfight: There and somewhere else. If given a choice, I prefer somewhere else. Life's a lot easier--and longer--that way.

smiling cobra
March 12, 2006, 10:33 AM
The best gun to have is one nobody knows you have.....avoidance of confrontation is #1....Not to be a victim is also #1...I feel secure and relieved in the florida gun laws...which also state that the relatives who survive the BG....or the BG...if it is a legalshoot...cannot sue you for your actions in civil court....you are protected as a law abiding citizen should be......I find the cockroach mentality of the slackers who rob,steal,and intimidate who want my "stuff" quite tiresome....and I will not be a victim...remember drink....drive...and eradicate the bad guy responsibly...

armedandsafe
March 12, 2006, 01:13 PM
I have carried more than not for over 40 yers. I could probably think hard and count the times I've drawn AND presented, but one sticks in my mind. I was a LOT younger and dumber then.

I got gas in Gallup, NM one morning about 02:00 and was pulling out when a young lad jumped into the passenger seat, presented a small .22 revolver and demanded a ride out of town. I whipped onto 66 and took the car up to about 100mph. Then I turned on the dome light and pulled my 1917 .45 from the holster strapped to the door. He promptly threw his gun into the back seat and tried to hide between the seat and his door. :D I called State Patrol on the CB and they met us in Farmington.

Pops

Pointer
March 12, 2006, 02:34 PM
!Elmer Keith said that the best way to win a gunfight is to avoid it !!
+1

As a civilian I never had to... I'm glad too! :D

Walking through "dark" and dangerous "valley of the shadow of death" I always have my hand on the gun because I know I'm not the "baddest dude" in the valley.

Dennis2
March 12, 2006, 04:45 PM
All sanguine advice and numerous opinions I won't argue with on this forum. A couple respondents have a handle on "when to draw and use"! In my opinion there are three concepts that determines when it comes out of the holster. I feel those are legal, moral and threat. The golden rule comes to mind. Just because something under the law makes it legal doesn't make it moral if other actions were more prudent. When you loose the rounds, there are no taking them back! As a combat veteran who has taken life as his military obligation, it is a life altering experience. You best think if you will be held accountable by our Lord on judgement day for taking a life, regardless if it was legal.

Fortunately I have never had the misfortune to have had to pull a concealed weapon. If I personally ever have to pull it, it will not be for show! I will do everything possible to avoid it, including running, retreating and hiding to avoid having to use deadly force.

We have a God given right to protect ourselves, our property and our family from harm. Using deadly force must always be the very last resort.

Garand Illusion
March 12, 2006, 06:31 PM
Some guys fall into a syndrome of "I'm going to get milk at 2 AM if I feel like it, after all, I'm licensed to carry, so why should I not go. I feel like cereal right now! If someone tries to rob me, I've prepared." I'm not accusing anyone on TFL for this behavior, but ...

To me, this is America. It's a free country, where everything is available all the time. If I want cereal at 2:00 .am. and I'm out of milk, then by damn I'm going to go get milk from the local 7-11. With gun or without, I have a right to step outside my door and do business with anyone I want to.

If I want to go to a concert or play downtown that doesn't get out until late, then I'm going to do that too. Again, armed or unarmed.

Fear of b.g.'s is not going to make me a prisoner of my own home.

The most likely thing to happen BY FAR is ... nothing bad. None of these places are as crime ridden as some would have you believe.

The second most likely thing to happen is that somebody robs me without hurting me. That would suck, but as long as I'm alive and unhurt when the situation ends I'm fine with that.

The third most likely thing, which is HIGHLY unlikely just about anywhwere in America, is that someone tries to hurt me (likelihood would be higher if I were a woman, of course).

The things is ... we sometimes talk about sheepdogs vs. sheep here. And it's a state of mind. Someone afraid to go out at night, irregardless of what type of weapons they do/don't carry, is a sheep. A sheepdog walks without fear wherever it goes, because that's its nature. Not that it can't be hurt, but that it refuses to let the predators make it live in fear and will stand up to them when forced to.

America is the land of the free and the home of the brave. Not the land of the "free to cower insider their homes with their doors locked after dark because they're not brave enough to go outside."

Be situationally aware, especially when it seems most important, and carry whenever you can, but don't be a victim by living in self imposed fear.

riverkeeper
March 12, 2006, 06:57 PM
Deleted double post

riverkeeper
March 12, 2006, 06:59 PM
Never drawn but ‘hands on’ 3 times.

Last was a 3 way night ambush where showing eye contact confidence,OC and a Koppo took #1 out of the game and while turning to visually follow him picked up #2 coming in fast at about 45’(which had just been my 6 oclock), he stopped then walked on toward me & #1…. I backed out toward some good cover at 12’ behind me, pulled OC off hand, hand on jacket pocket piece, scanned and picked up #3 coming in fast at 40 ‘ from my new 7 o clock… faced him and he veered off at 30’. #2 quickly said, ‘Hey guys let’s head down to the station and see what’s happening.’ Some luck, confidence, obvious defense gear and a little scanning OR who knows? EDIT -- This whole thing went down in about 4-5 seconds tops.

Crazy Rott came running at me off leash but controlled him with my voice and gestures.

At night two bangers changed direction toward me when they saw me. Coldly looked at them till about 30' where I held 'precious’ handle as I casually headed into the street between 2 parked cars and crossed the street. They stopped, turned and headed back.

petemo
March 12, 2006, 08:03 PM
Allot of guys passed on some good info. I have had a permit for as long as I can remember. I guess when I first became of age. I have had military training and I guess the best thing I can tell you is this.
When the gun come out a perp may or may not run. Drugs may be a factor.
A direct and certain threat to life or limb should be the only reason to draw a weapon.It is easier to walk away. It may hurt your pride but taking someone out should ONLY be a last resort.
petemo

LICCW
March 12, 2006, 08:55 PM
Garand Illusion: Hold on now. Sometimes being careful does not make one a sheep. I kind of take offense to the analogy. I worked as a bouncer in a dive bar in Tampa in college. Saw lots of sheepdogs get the snot beaten out of them because they didn;t know when to avoid wolves and the like. or couldn't tell the wolves in sheep's clothing Under your theory, in our free society, a young woman should be able to walk down the streets in any neighborhood wearing a short mini dress and high heels with no fear of some drunk bothering her. Would you tell your daughter to go out and get you the milk if you knew the local convenience store was the hang out of MS-13 just to teach her not to be afraid. I've been through too many scrapes to start thinking of my freedom instead of my safety.

Garand Illusion
March 13, 2006, 12:48 AM
When I said to be situationally aware ... if I drive up to the 7-11 and I see a bunch of MS-13 guys (or whatever) I'm not going to go in, armed or not. If I know a particular 7-11 is the hangout of such types then of course I'll drive a few blocks further (though I'd do what I could to get them out of there) and go to another.

Would I want my daughter to go to 7-11 at 2:00 a.m? ... well, yes I would. But I'd like her to be very careful, check out the situation as much as possible, and preferably have a 9 mm close at hand.

Yes ... sheepdogs do get beat up. And a sheepdog chooses his battles and how they are fought whenever possible.

But in the context of the above ... I stand by my saying that a sheepdog is NOT afraid of the predators and a sheep is. I mean no offense, and if I lived in a really bad neighborhood I would have to take some precautions. But I'd rather get beat down once living my life on my terms than never get a scratch while cowering in my house.

And yes ... I did spend a couple of years living in some pretty crappy places! I was lucky enough never to get beat down, But if I wanted to walk around the corner to get a pack of smokes at midnight ... I did it.

LICCW
March 13, 2006, 07:45 AM
Garand Illusion: I'm not telling you to cower in your house. Believe it our not there is a middle ground which lies between reckless bravado and cowardice. Its called prudence. I have seen way to many tough guys, gangsters, and pyschos end up dead or in jail with the "I'd rather get beat down once" attitude. Funny, when I was in school and the teacher told us to look around and that in 10 years many of us would be dead or in jail. I laughed. Yet 90% of the "tough guys" twenty years later are dead or in jail. I am sure that we are mixing signals here, that you don't mean what you are saying the way I am taking it. Don't tell your daughter its OK to go wherever she wants as long as she's armed. That's a very bad idea. I had a friend who decided to take a walk one night to get a snack at the quick-mart in town. While walking through a parking lot (and oh, by the way, he was a Marine at the time--not a sheep by definition) which was well lit and in a crowded section of own near the bars. He's Italian and had the high and tight. What he didn't know is some blacks and hispanics had a gang related dispute in that area earlier. Seeing him, a group of black gang bangers mistook him for a hispanic. Six of them attacked him. he did well considering the odds, but he was stabbed in the back, slashed cross the face, and shot at. The guy who shot missed him thank god, but he has an evil looking scar across his cheek to remember his walk that night. Yes they caught the guys, well, some of them. Not that he cared. He'd rather not be disfigured. Good luck to you, but please, for your own sake, be careful. And your daughter if you have one.

Pointer
March 13, 2006, 02:25 PM
The golden rule comes to mind.

Is that like...?

"Do unto others what you expect them to do unto you... but do it first."
No dis intended... :D :D :D

Just mixing in a spoonful of sugar so the "facts" won't go down so "bitter".


:)

DonR101395
March 13, 2006, 03:23 PM
To me, this is America. It's a free country, where everything is available all the time. If I want cereal at 2:00 .am. and I'm out of milk, then by damn I'm going to go get milk from the local 7-11. With gun or without, I have a right to step outside my door and do business with anyone I want to.

When I said to be situationally aware ... if I drive up to the 7-11 and I see a bunch of MS-13 guys (or whatever) I'm not going to go in, armed or not. If I know a particular 7-11 is the hangout of such types then of course I'll drive a few blocks further (though I'd do what I could to get them out of there) and go to another.

An example of why it's not as free a country as you think. If it were truly a free country you wouldn't worry about a couple of thugs hanging out in front of the 7-11 you want to buy milk from.

I agree with being situationally aware, that applies anywhere you happen to be. Personally I like situational awareness as well as my CCW of choice. It ain't no death ray, but it gives me an additional tool in my toolbox. A nail is no good without a hammer.

Rightwinger
March 13, 2006, 07:55 PM
Additional Tool... A great way to put it.

I've never had to pull my firearm. I've had my hand on the grip once, but the situation changed.

threegun
March 14, 2006, 06:33 AM
I am also torn between the "I don't want to allow the badguys to win by forcing me to alter my way of living" and "putting myself in harms way to prove I am free". The way I see it, they have already forced me to alter my way of life. I have to carry a firearm and train withit. So if I want Milk at 3am I get it. I just go to a safer store.


Petemo,
It may hurt your pride
Amen. You use pride as a guage and eventually you will go to jail.

Rightwinger
March 14, 2006, 08:00 PM
Damn straight on that one.

Pride has lead to the downfall of men far more times than their opponents skillfull opposition has.

seth
March 18, 2006, 04:31 AM
in liberal Hawaii, you get a BG pulling a gun on you, he shoots you, he takes your wallet, he gets away clean.

You draw your gun? You get sued for public endangerment and brandishing a deadly weapon, and CCW is illegal too.

You shoot a home intruder? You get sued for improper use of deadly force (yes, this has happened before here--- a farmer shot a home intruder in the countryside and the BG sued him!)

A BG approaches you with a knife, and you are unarmed. You call him a pu$$y because he's, well, a BG with a knife. He turns around and sues you for sexual harrassment.

junglebob
March 18, 2006, 11:36 AM
Interesting to see a state with worse laws than Illinois. No duty to retreat here, and you can defend yourself in your own home or business with a firearm.
I gather that Hawaii "may issue" is a joke, since the number issued can be counted on one hand.

delta58
March 19, 2006, 03:08 PM
Drawn once in about 20 years but glad I had numerous times!

Garand Illusion
March 19, 2006, 09:56 PM
In case you're still reading this, Liccw -- I'm really not trying to debate with you. But the way you put in your opinions as common sense bothers me. Only you know what to do to stay safe; I'm just saying that the safety we require is relative.

Garand Illusion: I'm not telling you to cower in your house. Believe it our not there is a middle ground which lies between reckless bravado and cowardice. Its called prudence.

Very true. Everyone knows this. But one man's "prudence" is another man's "cowardice." Although it was before my time, I know of my people too "prudent" to go to Vietnam, so they moved to Canada instead.

I have seen way to many tough guys, gangsters, and pyschos end up dead or in jail with the "I'd rather get beat down once" attitude. Funny, when I was in school and the teacher told us to look around and that in 10 years many of us would be dead or in jail. I laughed. Yet 90% of the "tough guys" twenty years later are dead or in jail.

The one's who went to jail were criminals. I'm not talking to criminals here. As to how the other tough guys died ... those things just happened. I'll bet the majority of them died doing something risky but fun (motorcycle riding) or stupid (driving drunk) or just like random, the same as the non-tough guys.


I am sure that we are mixing signals here, that you don't mean what you are saying the way I am taking it. Don't tell your daughter its OK to go wherever she wants as long as she's armed. That's a very bad idea.

No ... it's not. I want my daughter to have the best possible mix of courage and common sense and "prudence" possible, but I never want her to be a prisoner of fear. Stay out of a few select areas, and this country overall is pretty safe.


I had a friend who decided to take a walk one night to get a snack at the quick-mart in town. While walking through a parking lot (and oh, by the way, he was a Marine at the time--not a sheep by definition) ... Seeing him, a group of black gang bangers mistook him for a hispanic. ... he was stabbed in the back, slashed cross the face, and shot at. ... he has an evil looking scar across his cheek to remember his walk that night. Yes they caught the guys, well, some of them. Not that he cared. He'd rather not be disfigured.

So one night your friend went out and was attacked. I guess he could have stayed home with the doors locked and avoided that, but only ONE night was he attacked. How many hundreds of nights would he have to NOT go out and stay home with the doors locked to avoid that? And then even being at home, he could have been the victim of some "wilding" gang members who took him unawares in his own bed.

I'm not against prudence, but we Americans like to think of our country as "land of the free, home of the brave." We can't be free if we're too afraid to leave our homes after dark, and we damned sure aren't brave.

BG's don't like places with lots of decent people who will actually call the police and witness against them. Lots of decent people are a very bad thing for them. So they avoid those places.

So ... the more decent people out there at any given time, the safer it is for all and the less secure the BG's free.

Over the last 2 centuries, several million young American's have died to create and protect our freedoms. The did unprudent things, like charge ashore at Iwo Jima, or climb out of the trenches in Flander's Field, or even go to Iraq. Unprudent and more dangerous than about any neighborhood in America all.

We owe it to those people and live free. And yes ... you might get unlucky and get hurt. But how much of life will you miss if you base your existence on trying not to get hurt?

So I do have a daughter ... and while she's still very young, I never want her to fear to experience life. I hope she doesn't get hurt ... but if she does, I also know she'll be strong enough to deal with it.

FireBreather01
March 19, 2006, 11:27 PM
From the CCW class I took -- don't pull your weapon unless you intend to fire.

I would correct that by saying - 'don't pull your weapon unless you are PREPARED to fire'. To imply, or even state, that you can only draw if you are going to shoot is, IMO, reckless. As most of the posts on this thread have indicated, the mere act of drawing one's weapon and being sighted by the BG is usually enough to avert a potential violent encounter. If that's the case then that's all that is required - reholster, regroup, and move on.

(Although I would recommend following up by immediately filing a report with the local law-enforcement agency to document the threat)

Rightwinger
March 20, 2006, 08:23 PM
FILE A REPORT

I'll agree with that one, if only to get a description of the person who accosted you out to the officers on duty. Odds are that the person who caused you to draw your pistol is not going to turn from crime IMMEDIATELY, and has never done it before. Letting them know is a public service.

Plus you could avoid a ridiculous "brandishing" accusation.

AirForceShooter
March 20, 2006, 08:28 PM
FireBreather:
if I draw it I'm going to fire it.
If you don't, where was your "Fear"?
In 40 years drew twice, fired twice.
not including combat.

AFS

FireBreather01
March 21, 2006, 11:56 AM
FireBreather:
if I draw it I'm going to fire it.
If you don't, where was your "Fear"?
In 40 years drew twice, fired twice.
not including combat.

Your fear/concern is what causes you to draw in the first place. What if the threat ends by the time you come to full presentation? The BG drops his knife and raises his arms when he saw you go for your gun, or he turns and walks away from you as he is unarmed and was intending to out-muscle you for your wallet/car/whatever, or you hear glass breaking in your empty house late at night and, with gun drawn as you come around the corner from your bedroom - you find it's your son/daughter/wife that returned unexpectedly and they just dropped a glass, or you're in a hotel and although you thought you had locked the deadbolt - the hotel's maintenance guy mistakenly enters your room to fix a light on his work order and due to your surprise you've drawn and faced what you think is a room-invasion, or you're in a parking garage late at night, alone, and suddenly two guys appear out of 'nowhere' from in front and behind you and ask you, forcefully, for some money - feeling surrounded you draw your gun and again, seeing your draw, they turn and run, or or or.....???

Your reasoning, although it seems to have worked out thus far, is leading you to an eventual path of being either dead or in prison. If you only draw when you KNOW you're going to shoot, you've lost a critical edge in response time -while you're waiting to fully assess a threat and deciding whether or not to shoot BEFORE you draw - I've got my gun out and either at low ready or pointed at the threat, ready to respond in case I MUST. OR, as the above scenarios show, you've drawn on what is now an ended, or empty threat, if you will, - and the witnesses will say that "I saw the two guys in the sweatshirts kind of surround the AirForce guy but as soon as he reached behind his hip the two guys ran, then the AF guy just shot the one in the red sweatshirt - in the back!". Or, "yeah, that sweatshirt guy had a knife but he dropped it when the AF guy reached behind his back and then the AF guy just shot him - the sweatshirt guy even had his arms up".

It all comes down to the progression of force vs threat level - just because you determined a threat once existed does not give you a free-shoot card 5 seconds later, it must be immediate. If the threat has ended, so does your force.

Bigfatts
March 22, 2006, 06:57 PM
I would not necessarily shoot if I did draw, but I would not draw unless I intended to fire. In other words, If the situation doesn't warrant firing the gun in the first place don't pull it out. Once I do draw the gun, it's up to the BG. If he stays his course, he will most likely die. But I would more than welcome his retreat. I believe this was more along the lines of what AirForceShooter meant? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what I thought.

AirForceShooter
March 22, 2006, 08:39 PM
in both cases the BG never stopped they're threats or actions .
Bigfats understands my position.
I draw I fire.
No trainer will tell you different.
I never threaten or warn. None of that "if you don't stop I'll shoot you I'm armed"
My position will lead me to being dead or prision??
That I certainly don't get.

AFS

brickeyee
March 22, 2006, 09:30 PM
"What if the threat ends by the time you come to full presentation? "

Pretty damn fast to have the situation evaporate in about 1.5 seconds.

mvpel
March 22, 2006, 10:54 PM
What if the threat ends by the time you come to full presentation?
Then you need to practice your draw.

Previous posters summed it up well - if you make the decision to draw, you should have already made the decision to fire.

But still, 98% of firearm self-defense incidents end without any shots fired, I seem to recall reading somewhere.

AirForceShooter
March 23, 2006, 12:43 PM
There seems to be a reluctance being displayed that is "I don't want to shoot".
The senario keeps changing to finding a way not to shoot.
What if: the BG throws his hands up, what if he stops, what if he drops dead of a heart attack.
If you're CCWing and presented with a shooting senario, once you draw there's no going back. You have less than a second to deceide. That's not much. You're protecting your life, of your spouses or your kids. Think I give a hoot about the BG?
That "what if" just might get you killed or injured.
Sorry if I offended but it's my opinion and experience.

AFS:eek:

brickeyee
March 23, 2006, 08:55 PM
I agree with Air Force Shooter.
Buy the time the weapon is out, the shooting will occur as a trained response.

As non police in a non-combat situation, you are likely going to have to make a very fast decision and hesitation at that point will be very dangerous.
If you are not in enough danger to have already decided deadly force is required, you do not have any reason to draw in the first place.

Unlike the police who may threaten to fire, for a CCW person the crime is called ‘brandishing’. You displayed a weapon with the intent of causing fear.
The police have detailed rules governing when they can draw. Having some idea of them is a good idea.

Once you have made the decision that deadly force will be required for the problem at hand, it should be employed as quickly as possible.
You do not want to get into a wrestling match with someone with a loaded weapon in your hands (or even on your body).

When I draw a gun from a holster I am wearing, it requires thought to not immediately flip the safety off.

Bigfatts
March 25, 2006, 08:57 PM
I agreee whole-heartedly AirForceShooter. After the gun is drawn or during the draw is no time to be thinking about what to do about the guy (or girl), I will have already decided that.

brickeyee
March 25, 2006, 10:33 PM
LEO gets some relief since you can draw and not be immediatley charged with brandishing. You get to fill out a report.
Any non LEO who display a gun in a threatening manner can be charged with brandishing in most jurisdiction. All you need is a PITA anti-gun DA who wants to make mileage on your hide.
It forces you to wait until the situation is relaly sh*t before drawing, and by then there will be no question as to the outcome.

Powderman
March 26, 2006, 03:55 AM
Any non LEO who display a gun in a threatening manner can be charged with brandishing in most jurisdiction.

It depends on what we call the "A" word--Articulation.

You must be able to articulate that: the threat was of sufficient severity to warrant the use of deadly force; that the threat was imminent; that the assailant had demonstrated the willingness to use deadly force against you, and (possibly most importantly) that the assailant was in the position to carry out the threat. In short, a "reasonable person" would believe, under the same circumstances that they were in danger of death or serious bodily harm.

brickeyee
March 26, 2006, 09:17 AM
And if you can articulate the threat as reaching the level to let you draw, you have reached the level of use.
As a non-LEO it is not my job to offer one more chance to stop already established threats of 'death or grave bodily harm' and the ability to use same.

Powderman
March 26, 2006, 09:31 AM
That's what I meant, but you said it better, I believe.

What I meant (to elaborate a bit) is that if you are drawing your weapon for use under those circumstances, the chance of being charged with brandishing is actually quite low to non-existent--at least, in most States.

jamaica
March 26, 2006, 10:03 AM
From my training, if you are convinced the BG is going to harm or kill you,
that is reason enough to draw and fire. You are under no obligation to yell stop, or reason with the sucker, he has already made the threat and can pay the consequences.

I am sure though that the DA will ask you later if you felt the BG was going to harm you, and did you feal fearful for your life. Better have the right answer.

However, if the threat is removed, better not shoot. IOW if the BG decides to run, don't shoot him in the back. Don't shoot a robber running from your house or driving off in his car.

Each situation will be a little different and it is hard to draw a blanket conclusion. For sure the mere presence of a gun has many times calmed down the situation. I think I would probably draw and see if that changed the BG's mind before I fired, if I felt like there was time. Of course I am sitting here calmly at the keyboard, and who knows how I would feel when I suddenly realized, "Geeze that BOZO is going to kill me?" I have a feeling one would just react to save his own life and never give thought about any resulting charges.

A leo I know told me, "If you are going to carry you better decide NOW that you are going to shoot. If you can't do that, don't carry! "

I have never felt the need to use a gun for defense.

Michigan Mason
March 26, 2006, 10:41 AM
Only been carrying for a few years but havn't had to unholster, did reach 1 time when I was out with family at campground. Van with some guys kept driving by ,where my parents were taking down camp, and looking at parents. When Dad would make eye contact the van would speed up and then come back around. Did this about 4 times before Dad came to lake side to let me Know what was going on. Just as I got to the table the van showed up again. I had hand on 1911 on the side facing away from van. Had longer flannel shirt on. I asked the guy on the passenger side of the van if he needed something or if they were waiting for our spot. No answer told them we were leaving in about 20 min and the site would be open if they wanted it. No answer just a weird look and they drove off.
Dad said it looked like I was scratching my side when I asked if he could tell that I had my hand on the 1911. Him being LEO for 23 yrs and now ret.
We left but did not see the van anywhere on the way out and we were the only ones in the campground at the time all other sites were empty.
Sad thing is in the campground because it is national forrest you can't have the gun loaded or even have full clip in gun. Thought about that afterwards and thought how much time it would have taken to dump empty clip and lock and load new clip and round. Been practicing that now for when we do go back to the campground. Any hints on that situation?
Did notify PD about incident. No plate to give ad it was so dirty couldn't read it but did get good look at passenger.
If it would have happened during set up we would have broken camp and left.

X-RAY
March 26, 2006, 06:20 PM
Been carrying since 1979. My wife (girlfriend at the time) and I were walking her dog, a deaf dalmation,when we were confronted with a not too happy german shepard. The dog was not leashed and was giving us a pretty good display. To make matters worse , being deaf , the dalmation totally ignored the shepards aggressive behavior. I positioned myself between the shepard and my wife , gripped my .45 and stood at a quartering angle to the approaching dog. I shouted "no" at the dog , but it didn't even make it hesitate. I drew my wepon ,
and shouted again. That dog stopped like someone stepped on his leash, growled and stood there looking at us. It was like he knew something was up , but he wasn't quite sure what. My wife kept walking and it all stopped as quick as it started. The sad part is that IF I had fired a shot to protect myself or my wife , I would have more than likely had my permit suspended or revoked for discharging a firearm within the town limits (residential neighborhood).

FireBreather01
March 27, 2006, 01:47 PM
Pretty damn fast to have the situation evaporate in about 1.5 seconds. And yet, we comment endlessy on the Tueller Drill, whereby a threat can close in 1.5 seconds.

Then you need to practice your draw. Right, because we're all such accomplished 'quick-draw' artists that we will have vanquished our opponents before they know what hit them - in spite of covering garments, people in the area like a child at your side, being momentarily surprised, whatever - it's not a perfect world my friends where we're instantaneously ready for everything and anything, no matter what your situational readiness is.

There seems to be a reluctance being displayed that is "I don't want to shoot". Well, I'd rather not! But I will, and have no hesitation, if I have to.

Unlike the police who may threaten to fire, for a CCW person the crime is called ‘brandishing’. Not if you're in fear for your life or another's.


However, if the threat is removed, better not shoot. IOW if the BG decides to run, don't shoot him in the back. Don't shoot a robber running from your house or driving off in his car. Each situation will be a little different and it is hard to draw a blanket conclusion. For sure the mere presence of a gun has many times calmed down the situation. I think I would probably draw and see if that changed the BG's mind before I fired, if I felt like there was time. Exactly! That's all I was saying - while it may be necessary to shoot immedialtely upon full presentation, the threat may have evaporated as well, I simply disagree with the dictum of 'if draw, then shoot' for me it's, 'if draw, I'm ready and willing to shoot, if it's still necessary'.

And, AFS, I mean no disrespect to your experiences, they obviously worked and you're still here - chalk one (two!) up for the good guy! I just don't want to see any of our armed bretheren get into trouble by going beyond 'reasonable and prudent'. By choosing to carry, we're under a microscope and we must be able to clearly articulate, and present evidence of, a threat that caused us to draw and/or shoot if such a situation should ever arise. I strongly believe that I cannot merely say that I was in fear of my life and therefore had to draw and shoot - without regard to what happened in the interval between the draw and shot, too many variables. Drawing-and-shooting are not one act, they are two separate acts, each with their own reasoning.

AirForceShooter
March 27, 2006, 03:10 PM
no problem at all.
I really do respect your opinion.
One thing I may have left out is that I don't draw until i'm prepared to shoot.
I just may be the last guy to present his weapon.

AFS

FirstFreedom
March 27, 2006, 03:54 PM
CCW'ing 9.5 years.

Zero Draws.

Renders remaining questions moot.

:)

Do not draw unless your in fear for your life or serious bodily injury, AND your fear is both reasonable, and of imminent harm.

auburn4
March 27, 2006, 05:09 PM
Had CWP for years, believe in one Moto "FEET DON'T FAIL ME NOW"!!!!:D :D

nug_38
March 29, 2006, 11:35 AM
From reading some of these posts, it seems the general idea is that once a person is scared, then that justifies them to draw their weapon and deal with the cause of their fear. I am writing this post to impress upon you that in addition to fear, there must be three or sometimes four things that must be present.

The first is oportunity. If the cause of your fear has the means of killing or maiming you, then he/she has satisfied that requirement.

The second is threat. Some call it manifest intent. This means that there should be an actual threat againts you, wheter verbal or in action.

The third is ability. As is implied, the threat must be able to cause grave bodily harm.

Some states require the fourth, which is retreat or preclusion.

The first three items must be present together before you can use deadly force. For example an unhappy boyfriend armed with a baseball bat at the base of an apartement building yelling threats at his girlfriend on the fith floor balcony, may have the intent and ability to cause harm to the woman, but since he is downstairs, has no opportunity to inflict said harm.

Another example is, a bummy looking character might be seen with a large knive/machete proceding towards a cashier in a store. One might assume he is going to rob the place when infact he is just trying to purchase the tool, to do some gardening at his house. In that case ability and opportunity are present, but there is no threat, even though you get scared. Obviously your situation awareness should cause you to be examine the situation more closely.

A six year old maybe mad at her babysitter and verbally threatens the sitter and attempts to punch her. Such a kid has the opportunity and intent, but does not have the ability to do the harm that she wants.

These are just a few examples that may not warrant a deadly force defense. I am a minority, and during the week I am usually dressed buisnes casually. But during the weekends, I do alot of handi-man type work. I usually go to the hardware store alot. Sometimes I see ladies trying to carry heavy tools or materials. I wish I could help them, but I am more scared that they would think that I am trying to rob them, than help them. I know its sad, but I rather watch them struggle, than try to be a good Samaritan and end up a holey mess.

Now, I will say that, if these 3 tests are met, and you draw your weapon, if these conditions remain after you draw, then you have every right to shoot. If you are in those states that require you to run, then you must attempt to retreat before you shoot, IF YOU CAN DO IT SAFELY.

Be safe y'all.

nevin
March 29, 2006, 02:41 PM
nug_38 - nice post :)

OneInTheChamber
April 1, 2006, 12:01 PM
Nug_38; that was masterful.

But, sadly, some kids in Lancaster proved you wrong....
A six year old maybe mad at her babysitter and verbally threatens the sitter and attempts to punch her. Such a kid has the opportunity and intent, but does not have the ability to do the harm that she wants.


7 year was shot on a school bus yesterday.

guntotin_fool
April 2, 2006, 02:51 AM
CCw for about 11 years. drawn more than a few times. only presented a couple of more times. I manage property, sometimes people try to take the rent money. only brought it to bear twice.

Most of the times I have drawn it has been winter and I feel I need to have it more ready than under a coat and a pullover. Unseen voices in the hall way. lights out that should be on. That sort of thing, I pull it out and either carry against my leg or tuck it under the open coat. Sometimes shield it with the clip board.

Have just let it be shown to squash some kids Ideas that talking about ripping off the man are not wise topics.

Presented it once to three brothers who were living without permission (lease was for their mom and younger daughter not them) They were given notice of intent to evict.
My mistake was to make their stop my first, gave them time to sulk and get pumped up. I should have collected the building and then stopped at their door. But I came down the stairs and the light was out. I back tracked and called 911 and spoke loudly to the operator why I was calling and let her know i had a gun. I turned around and saw the oldest two were coming up the far stairs and one had a pipe/club in his hands. Bacled up to the door of one of the good tenants and kicked on her door with my heel and she opened up and I backed in with my gun out and phone in my ear. Slammed the door and waited for the cops, they beat on the door and told me i was a Pu**Y for hiding in a womans Apt. I told her I was sorry but they would be going to jail today. cops showed up in force took them all away. surprise the older two both had outstanding warrants in three states.

Mom was hauled too for harboring wanted fugitive, turned out she had warrants too. We petitioned for and got alternative eviction, meaning no waiting period. they were moved out in one day.

I was not looking to shoot, but I was of the mindset If they get in the door before the cops show. I shoot.

cliffjr83
April 2, 2006, 04:04 AM
I have a ccw and I live in Arizona. I DO NOT carry it concealed!!! What is the point of having a concealed weapon? Can anyone answer me that? I carry mine on my hip and in plain view for all to see. I have NEVER had to pull it out of my holster!!! I have been at gas stations late at night filling up the car and have been eyeballed by a bunch of gangbangers. The second I got out of my car and they saw my 1911-A1 Cocked and Locked they moved on in a hurry!!!

When I went through my course the NRA instructor told us to carry it in plain view. If you do get in a situation where you need to get to your pistol fast, it better be on your hip with one in the chamber!!! You should take defensive pistol courses from NRA Certified Instructors and you should practice pulling it out of the holster on a regular basis. God forbid you should ever have to actually go for your gun. But, if you do you better be prepared to KILL!!! Carry your sidearm with the best defensive deadly ammunition you can buy! I personally call them "hang nasties".

If you have to pull out your piece and point it at a person, DO NOT HESITATE to pull the trigger!!!!

An armed society is a polite society!!!

Cliff

AirForceShooter
April 2, 2006, 09:43 AM
a LOT of us don't have the option of open carry.

AFS

brickeyee
April 2, 2006, 11:19 AM
"What is the point of having a concealed weapon?"


While open carry is legal in Virginia, it is not a great idea in the more urban areas of the state.
The Virginia Civil Defense League (VCDL) often has 'events' were they open carry to show that they can, even in restaurants that serve alcohol (concealed carry is prohibited i any place that serves alcohol).

I prefer not to advertise that I am carrying a weapon.

cliffjr83
April 3, 2006, 04:25 AM
Having a gun on ones hip is very common is AZ. The only people that freak out are the "Snowbirds" we get when it isn't summer and hotter than hell. I also look like an off duty officer so there really isn't a problem. As I stated in my last post, if I get into trouble I want it ready to go, end of story.

Lifetime NRA member,

Cliff

P.S. Arizona is a great state and I concider it a State that our Forfathers intended our Great Counrty to be like.

W Turner
April 3, 2006, 01:32 PM
I have only had to draw a weapon twice in public. Both times I was working armed security at a local restaurant.

The first time there was a shooting across the street.
The second, I drew due to a threat from a MV.

W

Bill Johnson
May 9, 2006, 01:43 AM
Though the laws vary from State to State, theirs Case law and Statute law,the one post concerning Ability,Intent,and Opportunity are tied into the Statute,the more familiar one is with Both of these,the better,and those case laws can be modified. I've been carrying 16 years,16 hrs a day,and only twice did i have to put my hand on a gun but didn't raise it or point it at the person but showed the butt when i went through 2 Death threats,where at first they had Ability,intent and Opportunity at first,but the last one was starting to go away,so i did not escalate it....the if you draw you better shoot,i'd advise against...if you can,get distance and retreat,even if your not bound to retreat,such as in a house or at a place of employment where not bound to retreat(this means if the person at the employment accosting you has a Legal right also to work there),retreating is best in all times (unless cornered and you can't)......the right to draw is not a right to shoot by the law.......A avoid the neighborhood or threat,even if the shoot would be justifiable in a bad neighborhood,you go in there on purpose knowing,it and the detectives will ask,the (Well its america and i have aright to go where i want),Retreat also can mean a PRedetermined mindset to avoid where you think their is a heightened threat,but take no precautions as a prudent and reasonable person would....the law says....Ability,Intent and Opportunity,and more get into trouble with having the first 2 without the third.....the opportunity wasnt there by the law,but was just FELT......reasonable and prudent doesn't mean what WE FEEL it is,its if it lines up with the Statutes and Case law.... one would need All 3,i agree with the last post ,yet one of another group of 4 HAS to be present to go with the First 3/of 3.......REalistic threat of Murder,kidnapping,rape,or grave/bodily injury OR ANY 1 or more of those to injure another that you may defend at no GREATER degree than your own(=that they could do if they had the gun to defend themselves)....Even if the circumstances have the 3/3 intent,etc......and 1 or more of the other 4,this satisfies the statutes if the defendant is not Able to mitigate by surrending a Thing or by retreating.....(forget defense of property even when allowed,a prosecutor can ask one question,though allowed,was the penalty of stealing your tv punishable in court with execution,if you say no,then excessive force could still be brought up at least,if you say yes,then why aren't all thefts arrests executed in courts today?...That last one opportunity is the hardest to discern,Example,
a man breaks into your house saying he will rape your wife and kill you and cripple your kids after he kidnaps them,threating all 4 of the first 4,then has intent and ability to do so as he comes in with a bat.....Rather than firing off the get go,thinking better him than us,Instead you retreat to a safe room provided their is distance and say stop i really don't want to shoot you,or i don't want any trouble,don't panic thinking you have no time,sometimes you do(i don't mean a carjack with a knife already 1 inch from your throat with your gun in hand) and the guy in the house about to attack ,the opportunity it seemed he had starts to go away as he freezes and doesn't leave but doesn't advance.........the if i draw,i shoot philosophy has a weakness there.......or even more so what if he starts backing down but you shoot just from fear and instinct,and turns around and gets shot near or in the back.......Some may say well he shouldn't have come in its his own fault,but a judge may not feel that way,so warnings are good first,the proof is cops mostly always do it......stop or we will shoot......they dont shoot then ask questions later,unless shot at or attacked with a knife and unless its a gun they go against they warn....even sometimes with a gun against them if its not pointed at them,they give one chance to drop it,then if they don't ,then they get Shot.Forgive me for this long post,i'd like to finish with this: the Closest call i had was this,i'll list in in the next post for those who are interested.

Bill Johnson
May 9, 2006, 02:23 AM
K This how it went down,i was returning from target shooting with a smith 3 inch 22 semi discontinued. My 2 young nephews 12 and 14 were in the car with me,we stopped at a mcdonald drive through,my gun was in the back in the range bag.....(wasn't cleaned yet and didn't want to dirty my holster) this mcdonalds had 2 cement posts and once near the drive through window,you couldn't retreat. cars on both sides and you couldn't crash that cement. THE man in front of me got out of his car and was intoxicated heavily and was banging on the mc'd window demanding a whopper,the lady in the window was laughing at him and he got more angry,my nephews said beep at this clown...and i said no,he's dangerous,but the 2 cars behind me that had me pinned in beeped anyways and the man Thinking it was ME started walking to my car
saying he would punch through my side window and drag me out thru the cut glass..........he was about 5 feet away and approaching but at walking speed....i asked my nephew to hand me that 22,and the man heard it as my window was down a little waiting for my order and said you don't have no gun and he kept coming....i had the gun which had 5 or 6 22's put in a clip...but didn't point it
and though his fist was at my glass 6-4 and about 240
and once he seen just the butt in my hand lowered in my hand,he turned around real fast and started heading back to his car saying if you didnt have that gun i would have killed you. THE intent and Ability was first there and he was seeking opportunity agressively at first,and 3 threats of the other 4 were there,defending my minor nephews to a threat no GREATER than mine but had to be Equal and it was.......but the opportunity was walking away and the Ability also even though his INtent(if you didn't have that gun i would kill you) was boasted by him<so even though he was at my window with a fist,if i would have shot him as he turned quickly around,The fact all those legal threats were there,they can change with Deterrence very fast. (which ties into the other 98% are deterred,and those statistics come from the Justice Department,i read it years ago) But their was another factor,in his car in front of him,his wife came out saying yo i'll take a bullet,which really gets you thinking,but the husband said get in the car ####%%%. and drove off without getting his food,something that i did then next,my appetite was gone.
But one thing stood in my mind also,in the back seat of his car they had twin babies in car seats,and even if they weren't hit Which was on my mind,it would have been a disaster if the man didn't back away and if i shot him in front of his family....i tried to talk him out of it at first saying i didn't beep,he didnt believe me,then he was deterred without anybody getting hurt....But the Moral is never be in a hurry. Most would have shot the guy but then living with his kids Growing up with it,and me,the hand that put him to death......is tragic any way you would slice it......its not a license to kill,not always even a licence to stop,but a license to CARRY.....Exhaust everything,run if you can,as one post said Correctly too.....I couldn't run
and though i felt threatened and felt at first like doing something about it,i'm glad i didn't....THe last factor and i know this for a fact is that God made that man go away
he did not want me to shoot him,wicked as his actions were,he did not want me to kill the father of a family,yet he did not LET the man Carry out his threats,i didn't know that back then in 1991,2nd year into my carry license,but the Lord told me about it later to let me know it was HE that helped me. Even the man's threat wasn't totally true,he Would HAVE tried to kill me,if the Lord didn't use the gun as a deterrent then moved his heart to leave AGainst his will and his wife too. The opportunity left but not slowly,but turned around in one second flat andPraise God that he didn't let do an oops.....shoot,i Thought he was Going to because of the past circumstances a minute ago....with his kids and wife screaming even though the adults STARTED it......So even if it came to my house,i never do searches in dark....SAFE room,if the person comes in there,a warning if time permits,if Truly cornered all the way and the threat keeps coming to do one or more of those 4 things,murder,kidnapping,etc ,It's at such times when all things are exhausted. Pray you never experience it,even police after a justifiable shoot are ordered to go through pysch eval's. a civilian justifiable still can have $10,000 in legal costs for the judge to make sure that he or she did everything they could before lethal force was done....one error and it can turn into up to 100,000 and possible prosecution,the loss of the gun and the loss of the carry license for life.....Cover and concealment when it can be done as well as running away or getting into a car even if you have to speed getting away beats $10,000 with your name on the news. Even if you get a speeding ticket,under such things it will be cancelled. What we do can affect our children also,nightmare scenarios like our kids going to school even after a month or 2 to help them cope,one kid saying to another in school,your daddy shot my daddy
is something none of us want. Yet a gun with some practice of 4-20 feet,no more is needed,over 90% are at those distances,Combined with a good understanding of what the law demands of us can give a person a very very good chance,that theywill either avoid dangerous people or when not avoided,that we act in a responsible manner.Though this may seem excessive to some who may say well if they mess,they are dead....if we can live with these rules We can end up like some who posted Excellent as some who said they carried 10 years but never drew it....or had a hand on it but didn't point it. Pocket guns too like any kind of centennial has edges that way which can be ready but not Brandished,with warnings to please leave us alone,we dont want any trouble,that term sincerely given stands up best in courts....Rather than get out of here you perp or i'll put a cap in your....

springmom
May 9, 2006, 08:14 AM
Bill, my old eyes aren't what they used to be. Could you go back and put in some paragraph breaks and fix the punctuation in your posts? It would make them an awful lot easier to read, and it looks like you have some good things to say. But I'm having trouble following you in the format you've written in.

Springmom

PythonGuy
May 9, 2006, 08:28 AM
We have a new moderator in the house?

springmom
May 9, 2006, 08:36 AM
That's what I get for removing a certain name from my ignore list...I read nonsense. I just asked the guy, for myself, so I can read his work easier.

Do me a favor, Python Guy, put me on ignore, like you're going back on my ignore list. Then you don't have to read anything I write and you'll be obviously happier. And I'll be left alone.

Springmom

Model520Fan
May 9, 2006, 09:12 AM
We have a new moderator in the house?

No, we have a normal American reader of English who has the same problems with BillJohnson's typing that I have. As best I can tell from the ONE posting of Bill's that I have read, he has some very worthwhile things to add to a discussion. However, everything considered, it is not always a useful allocation of my time and effort to read his postings as posted.

Have you ever wondered what a paragraph is, and why it was invented? If I ever did, I don't now.

Pointer
May 9, 2006, 09:30 AM
Many times in hand... never presented it to anyone.

Dark places, night parking lots... When at the front door unlocking and entering and when greeting strangers, etc.

I also carry on duty... :)

Al Norris
May 9, 2006, 10:22 AM
If you have to pull out your piece and point it at a person, DO NOT HESITATE to pull the trigger!!!!
Wrong!

It may be necessary to to draw your weapon, and even point (aim) it at someone... But it is not always necessary to pull the trigger.

PythonGuy, remember the "new" rule?

4) Mangling of the English language whether thru ignorance, age, sloth or intent diminishes and embarrasses each of us. Posts which are indecipherable due to inability to translate thoughts into coherent written statements will be deleted without explanation. Recidivists will be removed.

Bill? You have a PM.

PythonGuy
May 9, 2006, 12:34 PM
I was not disputing the poor english, I thought that is was the Mod's repsonsibility to PM the party at fault, not a public mention by another forum member. I'm a fan of english grammer, and good posting!

invention_45
May 9, 2006, 12:56 PM
Zero.

And hope it stays that way.

Model520Fan
May 9, 2006, 02:23 PM
I was not disputing the poor english, I thought that is was the Mod's repsonsibility to PM the party at fault, not a public mention by another forum member. I'm a fan of the english grammer, and good posting!

So I see.:rolleyes:

PythonGuy
May 9, 2006, 02:35 PM
Hahaha, I just noticed and fixed that!!! No pun intended I assure you. I was hoping no one noticed, typing fast at work is my crime. :D

Trip20
May 9, 2006, 02:48 PM
...grammar. ;)

Al Norris
May 9, 2006, 02:51 PM
I thought that is was the Mod's repsonsibility to PM the party at fault, not a public mention by another forum member.
Correct only in part.

Any member may politely ask or admonish another member. Sometimes peer pressure is better than a PM by the moderators. Sometimes it isn't.

springmom was very polite and thoughtful in asking Bill to use better structure. Your reply to her was snide.

Let's drop this now. We have diverged very far from the topic. Should anyone feel the need to carry this further, PM or email me.

Nuff said.

tegemu
May 9, 2006, 03:00 PM
I usually carry IWB and have never had to draw or even grasp the grip. There have been many times that I went from yellow to orange and back though. I also pocket carry,andthe neat thing about that is that you can grip the gun at any time with no one the wiser, I did do that once when confronted by an unsavory, intimidating trio of big, young men. Nothing came of it.

Roberta X
May 9, 2006, 03:18 PM
I have a CCW and I have, from time to time, had to draw; but never in response to hostile action from another person (sometimes put my hand on my weapon when confronted, sure, but never had to draw it).

I may never have to. I'd like that. Really not so much into that kind of excitement.

Sig40
May 9, 2006, 04:10 PM
I have carried 100% of the time for eight years. Only one time was I even thinking of going for my gun, and that was at my home. My neighborhood used to be a very nice one. Unfortunately, times change. I now have a drug dealer living right next door. One Wednesday night I had gone out to the garage to get something and noticed headlights shining through the windows. I raised the door and realized that the neighbors dealings had migrated to my driveway. I took a few steps toward the car in my driveway and asked them to go elsewhere to buy their dope. They said something smart, don't remember what exactly, then opened their door and started to get out. While at home I carry openly so this guy saw me rest my hand on the gun. He hurled some obcenities at me, but got back into his car and left. Even though I was on my own property and probably had the upper hand, I was still scared to death and it took a while to stop my hands from shaking. ALWAYS make sure it's a last resort when going for that gun.

Dwight55
May 12, 2006, 10:49 PM
Wheel, . . . if you have not already carried your weapon out in public, you will probably be as nervous as someone with an undesireable past sitting in the front row of a baptist church. :eek: Let me say two things about that:

1) I'm a Baptist pastor, . . . and I never know anybody's background, . . . and if I did I would ignore it, . . . no matter where they sat.:D

2) In real life, . . . 90% of everyone else is that way too. Yes, . . . some of us who regularly CCW are also alert to others, . . . LEO's are alert to CCW types, . . .

Big thing: CCW will become natural to you when you have practiced it to the point many others have, . . . and it feels un-natural to be without it. Wear appropriate clothing (summer's coming, . . . can't wear the knee length, hooded, down coat to hide your CCW). First though, . . . wear it around your house for a couple days, weekend, or so. Look in every mirror you pass and see if it is visible to you (you know where it is) and if it is not visible to you, . . . it isn't to any one else either.

Then enjoy, . . . knowing that you are better protected than all the sheeples.:D

Then make sure to remember, . . . ONLY use it to save your life, someone near you, or whatever situations your particular state allows.

May God bless,
Dwight