PDA

View Full Version : 2 shots center mass from .45 acp story


Doug.38PR
February 27, 2006, 10:31 PM
Yesterday we were talking with a man at the gun range who told us (he worked at the range) that he was a policeman who had once shot an average man 160-200 pounds (not on dope) center mass with a .45 acp jacketed hollowpoints. The rounds went right through him with flesh hanging off his back. Range was about 2 or 3 feet away.

The man simply looked down and had this attitude of "ouch! Please don't do that again!" He backed up and sat down and started talking with the officer. No vital points were hit.

How could anyone, hit with anything froma .22 to a .50 just take it so casually? Even if no vital points hit, it has to be extreme pain I would think. Plus a bullet is like getting hit in the chest with a baseball bat.

I believe he might still have fight in him or something or kept running with adreneline going but to just look down and practically go "ouch that hurt" and sit down and start having a conversation. (the cop was equally stunned by this)

carl418
February 27, 2006, 10:41 PM
hmmmmmm..... I have a .45 acp, and I've assumed it would 'put somebody down'. Now, I have to wonder.

#18indycolts
February 27, 2006, 10:46 PM
I've seen it happen. From a bullet to a car wreck. It's called adrenaline, your body secretes this chemical in extreme situations. I've been on 10-50's (vehicle wrecks) where someone was thrown from their car at high speeds, walking around and talking to me, telling me that they're fine and minutes later drop to the ground go into traumatic arrest. I've been on multiple gun shots, and some of them been shot in the head that are still concious and alert. Your body does crazy things to keep itself alive. Sometimes real crazy.:confused: :confused:

Lycanthrope
February 27, 2006, 10:46 PM
I've seen plenty of 150lb deer run a 100 yards with half their heart blown out the other side...........

No pistol round is a sure thing.

Ares45
February 28, 2006, 12:03 AM
This shouldn't come as a supprise to anyone.

Desertscout1
February 28, 2006, 12:20 AM
Doug, you have a terrible misconception of what it's like to be shot. It is not at all painful in most instances thanks to adrenalin and that built-in shut-down system that we have. There is NO feeling of being hit with a baseball bat. It's more like a beesting. I was shot once myself years ago and have seen several others. The knowledge of being shot is generally more painful than the bullet itself.
Also, the .45 is no magic bullet. It fails just as often as any other if not more. Our local PD shot a guy here 3 times CoM with 230 JHP's not long ago and he never went down and is still alive today. I have a magazine article that explains how a guy was shot 5 times CoM with 230 gr JHP's and dropped the knife on the 5 shot. He lived and later stated the shots felt like beestings.

If bullets hurt much, deer wouldn't often go back to grazing after a shot and fall over after a minute or so. If there were any "baseball bat" feeling, a 150 pound whitetail would fly off their feet when hit a 7mm or .30-06 but that is not the case.

Wildalaska
February 28, 2006, 12:25 AM
Gun range stories are almost as truthful as internet stories

WildcynicAlaska

gordo b.
February 28, 2006, 12:40 AM
The guy I shot thru heart once , and threw lungs ect. twice more stumbled in his full on run and I finished it with two to head. It was war and he was wearing 6 Kg of TNT with a pull cord igniter he didn't pull! He was focused on the HQ bunker when I stepped out of the S-2 Bunker with a 1911A1 with 7 rounds of ball.He was running toward me laterally 6 feet away . I started shooting, using the sights from about 20 feet.I had 5 years of NRA/Army team bullseye shooting experience with the .45. The first shot was high in thorax and centered, the next two was thru the side of chest as he was passing 6 feet away and it stumbled him, I shot at the back of the head from 10 feet and then as he laid on ground from 4 feet . His hands were out in front to break the fall and didn't make it back to the pull cord ,thank you Jesus!

#18indycolts
February 28, 2006, 05:45 AM
actually gunshots are extremely painful, depending on where and who you are. Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt. If a bullet hits bone, it can easily fracture it. Get hit in the lungs and it becomes difficult and painful to breathe. Most people that get hit are screaming bloody murder or in obvious distress.

bdcc11
February 28, 2006, 06:02 AM
I have never been shot or ever had to shoot anyone and hope it stays that way. I know quite a few people who have been shot. All in war time. My father served in Korea and Viet Nam and has been shot multiple times. He says that almost every time someone else told him that he had been shot. I never felt it and just kept doing whatever he was doing.

Another person I know was shot in the chest but had on body armor. He says it leaves some nasty bruises under the armor but he never felt a thing. Someone else pointed out the marks on his armor. He saw the bruises later that night.

I would only trust a gun to stop someone if the shot was placed just right or the person know that I shot them and reacted accordingly. If they didn't know they were shot they may not respond to it until shock sets in from bleeding out or system shutdown. VERY SCARY to me.

I'm just glad that the steel poppers go down with one good hit. I have almost 100% stop on steel popper with 38spl and 100% with .45 ACP.

I'll stick with paper and steel. Much more predictable.

HangFire83
February 28, 2006, 07:18 AM
As more proof that not every gun shot kills someone, just look at rapper 50 Cent. Shot multiple times (9 I believe) and is still up. Also 2Pac, on a previous occasion before the shooting that took his life on the corner of Flamingo and Koval in Las Vegas, he was shot multiple times in the chest and still lived. I have never been shot nor do I know anyone who has but IMO it looks like it hurts a bit more than a bee sting.

Some of you have mentioned deer taking a vital shot with a rifle and they just go back to grazing and they fall dead shortly after. I have seen deer "death kick" more when hit with a broadhead. So perhaps there is truth to the bee sting theory.

stephen426
February 28, 2006, 07:40 AM
This is the main reason why people say two to the chest and one to the head. As mentioned the body can do amazing things to keep going due to adrenaline. Something that should hurt like hell (and will hurt like hell sooner or late if the person survives) doesn't even register.

To have a genuine one stop shot (where the person is not physically able to continue fighting no matter how much adrenaline or drugs he has in him), you must make a central nervous system (CNS) shot. SWAT snipers are trained to take out the medulla oblongata which is roughly a 2 inch high band at eye level. A one stop shot will also occur if your center of mass shot hits the spinal cord and physically incapacitates your target. I know 2 people who are in wheel chairs because their spinal chord was damaged in a shooting. I believe that they were either shot in the back or had the bullet pass through in a lower abdomen shot. Shots higher in the chest cavity are usually much more devastating as there is a very high likelihood of hitting the lungs and possibly the heart. Not too many people survive heart shots for very long.

So what is the moral of the story boys and girls?
1. Don't expect bad guys to go flying back and expire instantly when shot, even with a .45
2. If there is a failure to stop with center of mass hits, go for the head shot.
3. Carry enough gun as long as you can control it and shoot it well.

mete
February 28, 2006, 08:04 AM
Head shots are not so great, many have survived head shots because the bullet glanced off the rounded skull .Upper chest hits are better than COM. Shoot and continue to shoot until the BG is no longer a threat !!!

exoduster16
February 28, 2006, 08:23 AM
I know that no round is a do all round.....well other than a .30-'06....but I hunt with a gun chambered in 7mm Rem Mag and have seen it toss deer around when it hits them.

#18indycolts
February 28, 2006, 09:09 AM
complete spinal cord separation would have to be the quickest way to die from a bullet,especially higher up (cervical area), thats my quess anyway.

TooTall
February 28, 2006, 09:48 AM
Back in the early 1970's, a fairly large man (about 6'2", 200 pounds) was shot FIVE times in the chest with .45 ACP ball ammo at point blank range, during a street robbery. Not only did that man survive, he was able to tackle the bad guy and hold him down until the police arrived! I happened to be one of the officers who responded to that incident.

One of my best friends was "zippered" by 4 rounds of 7.62x39 from an AK-47, just a few days into his second tour of duty in Vietnam. No vital organs had been hit, but he lost a lot of blood and the Corpsman didn't think that he'd make it. Well, he DID! He spent a LONG time in rehabilitation, but completely healed.....and eventually became a police officer.

On the other hand, I saw what appeared to be a "flesh wound" on a gang member, caused by a .22LR round at near-point blank range. The entry hole actually sealed itself! It was on his right side, just below his rib cage. The problem, however, was that the round entered the torso, bounced around and pierced almost all of his vital organs before exiting through his.....PENIS (er, male organ)! Nope, NOT just a flesh wound! He was DOA at the emergency hospital.

Mike T
February 28, 2006, 10:05 AM
Also, the .45 is no magic bullet

HERESY!!! We need to get Jeff Cooper over here to straighten you boys out!:)

Josh
February 28, 2006, 10:37 AM
The bottom line here is that no pistol, rifle, or shotgun is a
guaranteed manstopper. Pistol rounds are not effective the vast majority of times. Answer me a question, if you were going to a gunfight what would you take ?

We carry or should carry on a daily basis why ? to repel unexpected attacks and the pistol fits the bill.

I am friends with a trauma surgeon where they see multiple gunshot wounds on a weekly basis and he tells me that 3 out of 4 will survire being shot with a pistol. The rifle on the other hand is 99% of the time they are DOA.

What kills people that have been hit in a non lethal spot with pistol rounds ? shock and mindset. The TV has done
a remarkable job suggesting that when you are hit with a pistol round you fly through the air and land some 2 feet back of where you started and are dead. I have seen guy's hit with a 7.62x39 that never flew that far.

I was at Thnder Ranch some time ago and those of you who know Clint have heard some of his famous sayings. One is that "the purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to your rifle."

Nuff said.

riverrat66
February 28, 2006, 11:11 AM
I've seen many men shot during my two tours in Nam' and I myself was shot twice and it does indeed hurt depending on the location of the wound. The first time I ever saw a guy shot he was shot under the chin pointblank with a .45 acp, he was semi-conscience but unaware that the entire back of his head was gone, he died about 5 minutes later without making a sound. Another was shot by a sniper behind the right ear and the bullet exited out the roof of his mouth. He lived to fight another day. I've seen guys shot in the leg with what seemed like a minor leg wound but "bled out" because the bullet hit a major artery and they screamed bloody murder. I had a major head wound that almost killed me and I never felt a thing. I never loss conciseness but felt sort of removed from my body.

You shoot someone in the head with a .45acp or anything for that matter and you're gonna stop him, maybe not kill him but you're gonna stop him in his tracks. I don't care what drugs the guy is on, two in his brain and he's done!

During the Korean War the Chinese wrapped their bodies tightly in bandages so if shot the bullets would pass directly thru them with no ill effects.
To have a genuine one stop shot (where the person is not physically able to continue fighting no matter how much adrenaline or drugs he has in him), you must make a central nervous system (CNS) shot. SWAT snipers are trained to take out the medulla oblongata which is roughly a 2 inch high band at eye level.
I was told once that a sniper will aim for a spot just below the nose and that will shut off a man like a light switch.

Riverrat66

Blackwater OPS
February 28, 2006, 11:31 AM
To have a genuine one stop shot (where the person is not physically able to continue fighting no matter how much adrenaline or drugs he has in him), you must make a central nervous system (CNS) shot. SWAT snipers are trained to take out the medulla oblongata which is roughly a 2 inch high band at eye level.


I was told once that a sniper will aim for a spot just below the nose and that will shut off a man like a light switch.
My 2 cents- generally the area from the upper lip to eye level is good-soft tissue area.

Moloch
February 28, 2006, 12:13 PM
Shoot the throat! If you hit the throat veins he will be dead in seconds.
I've heard that the brain needs about 30% of the entire blood in the body, and this blood is delivered by the throath vines.
Its soft tissue no bones ar anything, with a good JHP you will put any attacker down.
And if you miss the vines you will hit the neck.

Double Naught Spy
February 28, 2006, 12:20 PM
I was told once that a sniper will aim for a spot just below the nose and that will shut off a man like a light switch.

Then you were told by a person who enjoys blatant over-simplification or has an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.

That magical spot below the nose could be cut out with a knife, hit with a fist, or shot from the side and not produce the desired result. Why? It isn't the spot under the nose that is relevant.

The magic spot under the nose is meant as an aim point to produce a shot that will strike the top of the spinal chord or bottom of the brain stem. For this to happen, the shot needs to be impacting level or with a slight downward angle and needs to shot from a location where the target is oriented such that there is perfect alignment between the sniper bullet's path, that magic spot, and the brain stem or spinal chord. Note the that target has to be completely vertical, right side up or down, for this to happen. If the target is leaning to any side, the impact location needed to produce the brain stem/spinal chord shot will have to change. Upon striking the magic spot under the nose, the bullet's will need to remain true and not alter course as it passes through skin, the premaxilla, maxialla, pallate, soft pallate and other connective tissue before passing through the sphenoid to impact the brain stem or below to the spenoid to pass through the atlas or axis vertebrae to hit the top of the spinal chord.

How would this be accomplished to get the correct direction of penetration from the spot under the nose to his the lower brain stem/upper spinal chord? The shot w ould need to be a close range shot with a flat trajectory or a long range shot where the shooter is on a lower plane than the target's spot belong the nose such that as the bullet arcs through its trajectory it would enter and pass straight back as would happen with a close range flat trajectory shot.

Could this happen? Sure, but it is remarkably difficult to aim at an exterior feature with hopes that it will then impact the necessary internal small structure after passing through various types of hard and soft tissue and not be deflected off course.

riverrat66
February 28, 2006, 02:41 PM
Then you were told by a person who enjoys blatant over-simplification or has an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.
Just exactly what is your point? I only stated a fact for what I knew it to be but as usual someone has to find fault with what someone says and humble us all with their superior knowledge and wisdom all for the sake of inflating their own ego. So I guess I should stand corrected.

After reading all that mumbo jumbo that you obviously copy & pasted, how am I to know that it is indeed correct or just the opinion of someone who enjoys a blatant over-simplification or an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.
That magical spot below the nose could be cut out with a knife, hit with a fist, or shot from the side and not produce the desired result. Why? It isn't the spot under the nose that is relevant.
I could kick you in the balls and not produce the desired result also but I'm not going to write 10 paragraphs on why it should be a straight on kick and not a glancing blow yada, yada, yada.

BTW, my source of information was a program on The History Channel about snipers and they did not go into detail only that they mentioned the shot placement to "shut a man off like a light switch". Sorry. :(

Mikeyboy
February 28, 2006, 02:59 PM
That is the way the bullet bounces. Again I got to bring up the Trooper Coats incident (If you don't know the full story do a forum search). The BG was hit FIVE TIMES in the COM with a .357 rounds, was still able to return fire at least for a short time and was still very coherent when other troopers arrived. Meanwhile Trooper Coats got hit with one unlucky .22 round, and he died. I would take increased capacity over caliber anyday.

Don H
February 28, 2006, 03:02 PM
Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt.

Fractured pelvis in 3 places and plateau fracture of the tibia. Didn't hurt a bit at the time. I was talking coherently with others at the scene and moved myself into a more comfortable position (needed help with my legs).

the_oklahombre
February 28, 2006, 03:10 PM
RiverRat+1 :D

riverrat66
February 28, 2006, 03:33 PM
Fractured pelvis in 3 places and plateau fracture of the tibia. Didn't hurt a bit at the time.
I'll bet it hurt the next day! But really you're talking apples to oranges. I worked with a guy who fell off a scaffold 30' onto a concrete floor and broke his pelvis, arm and lots of other stuff and didn't feel a thing. I put him in my car and drove him to the hospital but stopped for a six pack of beer on the way! I think someone goes into shock when suffering an injury like that. Try this, take a 24oz. hammer and place your hand on a steel beam then hit your hand with that hammer as hard as you can. I'll bet it will hurt like hell! But yet I saw a guy shot by a sniper and the bullet took off the tips off all four fingers down to the knuckles and it hardly even hurt. Sometimes I think the guys who were screaming the loudest were actually afraid of dying and not really in that much pain.

I remember once this guy had been shot seriously and was screaming pretty loudly and this cherry 1st Lieutenant says to "shut that guy up, he's giving away our position" and I said, "Lieutenant, Charlie already knows exactly where we are!" Boy did I make his sh*t list. :rolleyes:

Niantician
February 28, 2006, 03:37 PM
I've never been shot but I've had shrapnel tear apart my cheek and jaw. The only thing I felt was the warmth of blood running down my body. On the other hand I once cut my finger while chopping onions and passed out. Addreneline is better than morphine!!

riverrat66
February 28, 2006, 03:42 PM
I've never been shot but I've had shrapnel tear apart my cheek and jaw. The only thing I felt was the warmth of blood running down my body.
Same-same

"Adrenaline is better than morphine!!" Amen to that!

bclark1
February 28, 2006, 03:44 PM
yea i've had some pretty good injuries (broken bones, wood beam to the head, needed most of a finger reattached once) that i've been okay with, a lot of blood but no panic, just get myself to the ER. to indycolt's point as well, car wrecks are a "good" place to see this. i happened to be first-on at a pretty bad one a few months back, 80+mph roll, and one guy got thrown. he refused to acknowledge that he was spaghetti from the waist down and was flaming ****** at me for trying to keep him from moving, he wanted to walk it off. i don't know if a gunshot's the same, but i'd say weirder things have happened than someone quite suddenly reconsidering when they realize deadly force is being employed against them. different people will respond to trauma in different ways.

Moloch
February 28, 2006, 03:56 PM
Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt.

Crashed with my bike into a tree, left elbow bone shattered into more than 12small pieces and 2 fingers on my left arm were broken 4 times . Didn't hurt, I was able to drive more than 2 miles to the car while driving with both arms. I thought I have big bad bruises but at the hospital it started to hurt and sting. A LOT.:(

Varmint Eviscerator
February 28, 2006, 04:16 PM
Riverrat, could you elaborate??? Secondly My first hunt was with an 06 and I got to pick my own ammo- I picked hornady high energy loads-180grn goin 2950+fps
Well I thought I was going to do some long range shooting- buck that weighed 168lbs came to about 180yrds of my blind and I nailed him. His back legs collapsed and his front right leg stepped over to the left side to counter the "impact" or so it seemed, there is definitly "impact" pr "knock down" power, I had a cci velocitor ("wimpy" 22lr that moves a 40grn gold dot hp at 1435fps) With this load I shot a grey squirrel that weighed an honest to god 7lbs! When the shot hit it knocked him off his perch with pronounced authority!
BTW while a pistol round is nothing to scoff at it lacks the impact energy or inertia to really "baseball bat him"
Chase

Odd Job
February 28, 2006, 04:21 PM
@ moloch

Shoot the throat! If you hit the throat veins he will be dead in seconds.

I'm afraid that's not true. Firstly the venous return is not as critical as the arterial supply. Secondly the arterial supply is duplicated on the left and right side of the neck (the carotid and vertebral arteries are in pairs and there is intracerebral crossover). Even if you nail one of those arteries, you have no guarantee that you will stop the guy at all. I have seen many guys come to hospital with damaged neck vessels and most of them have been in good enough condition to go for an angiogram before going to theatre for repair. By the way, damaging a vertebral artery high up in the neck is almost certainly going to involve damaging the spine, but whether the spinal cord is involved depends on deflection and the angle of incidence of the bullet relative to the person's neck.
One thing that should be made a 'mental sticky' in everyobody's mind is that it takes time to bleed to death. Even if you sever the aorta don't think he will drop just like that: he has time to draw and shoot if he is willing and otherwise able.

riverrat66
February 28, 2006, 04:41 PM
could you elaborate???
I'd be glad to but on what should I elaborate?

Odd Job wrote:
One thing that should be made a 'mental sticky' in everybody's mind is that it takes time to bleed to death. Even if you sever the aorta don't think he will drop just like that: he has time to draw and shoot if he is willing and otherwise able.
+1 That's precisely the reason for my "shut him off like a light switch" comment.

Dre_sa
February 28, 2006, 05:08 PM
from all that has been discussed, i have concluded one thing;

pistols should not be considered deadly force, as this implies that anyone that is shot with a pistol will die.
rather, lets call it potentially lethal force. this implies that a person shot with a pistol will have the potential of dying.

from all the evidence supplied, one could assume that you'd have to be pretty lucky to get much of an effect out of a pistol.

;) :rolleyes: ;)

Niantician
February 28, 2006, 05:17 PM
dre sa NO! That's the "wrongest" opinion I've ever seen on this site

shield20
February 28, 2006, 05:28 PM
"Deadly physical force" is usually defined as "readily capable of causing death OR serious physical injury"...pistols definetly meet that criteria (especially if you carry something bigger then 9mm! :D ;) )

choochboost
February 28, 2006, 05:28 PM
I have a .45 acp, and I've assumed it would 'put somebody down'.
Probably the biggest myth related to handguns is that a certain caliber/pistol/ammo will "stop" someone or "put them down". No matter what caliber/pistol/ammo you have, keep shooting until they are no longer a threat.

OneInTheChamber
February 28, 2006, 09:27 PM
Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt.




When I had a compound fracture of my femur, I didn't even realize it until they cut my pants off; I was complaining from the pain of a small fracture in the tibia (which is below the femur, the femur being your "thigh" bone).

I think part of the thing that lets people continue to fight is that they feel they are fighting for their life; which tends to make one overlook any external circumstances. I can attest that during motocross races I have been hurt in a crash, remounted the bike, finished the race, and only then realized the severity of the injury (most of the time by the blood that has bonded my ________ (insert body area) to my clothes. I would bet the feeling is magnified a 100 times when you have lead coming your direction.

riverrat66
February 28, 2006, 09:53 PM
OneInTheChamber,

Quote of the Day by ian garbe

Adrenaline is better than morphine!!

It can't be said any better than that!

Doug.38PR
February 28, 2006, 10:10 PM
WOW!!! 3 out of 4 times they will survive a shot from a handgun!!! Y'all make me want to give up my .38 special 4 inch for a howitzer!!!

What to y'all say to this statement by Ed Lovette:

The biggest problem we all shared as the ineffective terminal performance of the common duty rounds, the lead roundnose .38 Special and the smi-wadcutter lead .357 Magnum round. The FBI designed 158-grain +P lead hollowpoint (LHP) solved the problem in both 4 inch and 2 inch .38 Special Revolvers. By the time this round had gained national acceptance I had contacts within the firearms training units of most of the big city agencies that have adopted the LHP. Their reports were always the same: "Given good shot placement on the part of the officer, the LHP is a very reliable duty load in both our 2 inch and 4 inch service revolvers. One or two shots at the upper torso generally stops the actions of the bad guy"......
Most of all the studies of actual street shootings (regardless of wholse study it is) agree that the LHP (regardless of manufacturer) from a 2 inch revolver performs very much like .45 ACP hardball. It may not be a giant killer (depending on your definition of giant); however, according to an FBI agent I knew, the first man they shot with the LHP weighed about 300 pounds. He took one hit "plumb center," attempted to take a step forward, and fell flat on his face.

riverrat66
February 28, 2006, 10:53 PM
If anyone thinks it ain't serious sh*t getting shot with a handgun look at this link . It shows what a .40 cal. SW 135gr. hydra-shok bullet fired at close range can do. It's not pretty and I'd hate like hell to be on the receiving end of this!

CobrayCommando
March 1, 2006, 01:51 AM
Allright, I didn't bother reading this thread, only the first post.

Lesson number one here is don't aim for center mass, thats simply idiotic. What is there but guts. Aim for the f*ing lethal triangle, thats where the .45 does its extra damage.

No handgun round will reliably "put someone down", as in drop dead instantly, even if you hit the vitals, and especially if you don't. It happens, but eventually your going to run into someone who simply doesn't feel like laying down.

Misses don't count, I don't give a **** what you think of the .45 if it doesn't hit vitals its not going to do jack unless you get lucky and hit a sissy.

I'm tired of seeing threads where you hit a guy in the lovehandles and suddenly everyone jumps on that caliber for not instantly killing him.

RsqVet
March 1, 2006, 06:47 AM
1. Any round can fail, period. Some fail more offten than others and some failures are operator error, i.e. round not put where it needs to go.

2. When discussing a "stop" as mentioned in Doug's recent quote or most other sources what is not being discussed is a "kill" i.e. the subject dies, what is being discussed is the cessation of hostilites by the agressor which is the goal of any armed defense, death may or may not result but is not a requirement. Talking about "stop" statisitcs and stories second, third or 4th hand through the internet can be very confusing as there are many "stops" atributed to a given caliber that might have been effected with a 380 or a 22 for that matter as once the BG saw a flash and realized things were serious he gave up. Defensive rounds are not designed for this situation, they are designed for the perverbial 300 pound man of muscle on PCP / Meth who is hell bent on homicie and to be stoped must be killed or so injured he can no longer fight, typically the best ways to do this are 1. direct incapacitation of major parts of the CNS (near instantaneous cessation of acticity), 2. Massive blood loss / disruption of the heart(can continue on for many seconds even with a transection of the aorta)

Any common duty round is designed to address these needs so since any round can fail, you are best advised to read the labratory tests as to a given round / caliber performnace and then select what you feel best based on that and then worry most of all not about carrying some magic round but about doing your part and putting them where they need to go

HangFire83
March 1, 2006, 07:25 AM
Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt

Broke my nose playing basket ball. Hurt like hell. Caught an elbow while sliding over to take a charge. Guy with the ball came in with his elbows leading the way and PRESTO...instant broken nose. First time I ever "saw stars".

#18indycolts
March 1, 2006, 10:15 AM
what it boils down to is everyone reacts to pain differently...thats why I've seen 300lb biker type guys throw up while getting a tattoo and I've actually fallen asleep before...but if I stub my toe I'm cussing up a storm!:D

Glenn E. Meyer
March 1, 2006, 11:03 AM
RsqVet - great post.

"The sum of anecdotes is not data."

I've heard a few talks by experts in the field and they say what you say. With quality rounds in 38SPL/357, 9mm, 40 SW and 45 ACP - they think most of the variance is the shooter hitting the target.

One important thing is the definition of a 'stop' - no one agrees on that and thus so many reports are baloney.

We have people falling over from a peripheral wound or no wound to Stacey Lim or Cirillo's report of a guy full of buckshot who kept on ticking and fighting till shot in the butt.

TX_RGR
March 1, 2006, 11:21 AM
I've really enjoyed reading the opinions and war/non-war stories. I would interject just a couple of things. One, COM is actually the "motor" of the body (i.e. heart, lungs, etc.) and is the largest area on the target (you could even say the ultimate aiming point is right at the heart, though you might be considered overly optimistic if you expected to actually pierce the heart), so you get increased hit probability (a good thing) and the largest potential for hitting something important (i.e. heart, lungs, etc.). For those reasons, I would hestitate to call aiming at COM "stupid" or any other demeaning adjective.

As for the "knock-down power" of any round--I won't try and argue with anyone using a 12 ga. slug on a groundhog. It's akin to the "knock down power" of a boulder landing on you. But, I have observed a squirrel get literally knocked out of a tree after a hit from a .177 pellet. I have also observed a squirrel get knocked out of a tree after a miss. It literally flew off the branch, landed on the ground, and flopped around. I think it must have arrested from fear or surprise. It ran away. My subtle point being that I think it's difficult to attribute the reaction of the target directly to the projectile used.

I like the idea of 2 to COM, if nothing else, to get the target's mind off of something else, like shooting me. After that, a follow-up or two at the head is a good idea. To parrot the comments of others, I read somewhere that a handgun is an excuse to get into a fight with a bigger gun (rifle, shotgun). I always liked that one.

Mikeyboy
March 1, 2006, 11:28 AM
River rat...nasty photo, another reason for me to think the S&W sigma is a POJ.

Can we all agree that a massive wound to the heart or the brain will most likely kill a man?? The lightswitch comment to me seems to fair, you simply are going for the center of the head. I do believe in chaos theory in defensive shooting, weird thing can happen. Sometimes the bullet bounces in your favor, and sometimes it does not. Increased caliber might give you a slight advantage but in the long run if multiple mini-events makes your .45 bullet miss the heart by a fraction of an inch, your BG can still be standing. Shooting multiple times until your BG drops is probably better then shooting a guy once and assuming that he should be dead.

I know I'm going to get "this is why 9mm is a whimpy round" replies but check out how the bullet bounced in a soldiers favor. If the insurgent just kept shooting this guy would have been dead.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp

Remember to brush your teeth

Moloch
March 1, 2006, 12:08 PM
I think a .40 or a .45 would get the teeth-job done because both have more weight than a 9mm. :D
I guess the .40 and the .45 are good bone-breakers because they are heavy and the 9mm is a barrier or flesh zipper.;)

Mikeyboy
March 1, 2006, 12:30 PM
A 9mm can easily go in and out of a man's skull, so it bone breaking ability is not in question. It just due to angle and a few other factors (perhaps bad ammo) lead this bullet to get stuck in the guy's mouth instead coming out of the back of his head. The same thing might of happened if the insurgent used a .40 or a .45, you never can be sure. Its the way the bullet bounces, If the insurgent kept shooting the soldier in the face, regardless of the caliber, the soldier would probably have been dead. Instead the insurgent was confused, "I shot the guy in the face and he is still standing and not dead?' and in that confusion he stopped shooting and was taken prisoner. You shoot until the guy your shooting at goes down, don't rely on big calibers to be one stop shots, just keep shooting.

Dave85
March 1, 2006, 12:39 PM
...another reason for me to think the S&W sigma is a POJ.
Hey now! It went BANG when the trigger was pulled with a round in the pipe, didn't it?:) A Glock would have done the same thing.
As a matter of fact, I was just talking with a fellow last week who's father-in-law had just shot himself in an extremity while cleaning his pistol. I said "Glock?"
He said "yep."(INSERT VEHEHEMENTLY PRO OR CON GLOCK ARGUMENT HERE)
And, while it does give us an opportunity to reflect on the wisdom of a design which requires the trigger be pulled for disassembly, the real lesson is CHECK YOUR CHAMBER!

Back to the point of this thread...if you pack a pistol, be prepared to empty a lot of rounds into an attacker. If you don't have to, that's great. But do be prepared for it.
And for those who say that shot placement is key: I'm right there with you.

Smoke Screen
March 1, 2006, 12:45 PM
Sheesh! Do I feel left out or what?! I'm probably the only one on this thread who hasn't gone to Nam, Korea, broken a bone, got shot, etc... I know, its not glamourous, but I can't say I relate...Amazing stories. Kudos to all who served, and continue to do so. Oh wait, I stepped barefoot on a scorpion one time! That hurt WAAAAY more than a beesting! Seriously!

Bullets are strange things, sometimes they don't kill when they should, and sometimes they kill when they shouldn't. Marinate on that for a while...

#18indycolts
March 1, 2006, 12:55 PM
dave-as for having to pull the trigger to disassemble, thats why I love my P99, don't have to pull the trigger to do it.

Mikeyboy
March 1, 2006, 02:03 PM
Good point Dave...you should always check to make sure you gun is unloaded. The S&W Sigma got other issues other than poor take down design.

Moloch
March 1, 2006, 02:45 PM
A 9mm can easily go in and out of a man's skull, so it bone breaking ability is not in question. It just due to angle and a few other factors

Maybe he used 9mm Ball ammunition, flat point will not ricochet like that. :eek:

fett tracking
March 1, 2006, 04:13 PM
Quote: Anyone ever fractured a bone? Tell me that didn't hurt.

When I was young, I was riding bmx and flipped over handlebars on a ****ed up trick. I snapped my arm clean in half. From the middle of my forerm to the tip of my hand was bent at what I remember dam close to a 45degree angle perpendicularly to the half of my forearm attatched to my elbow and upper arm.

I got up and got back on my bike, then noticing that my hand was not where it sould be on the grip with my arms in the position they were in...

"Holy **** fool! Your arms bent!"

threegun
March 1, 2006, 05:47 PM
Many have said to shoot until the threat is over. Many have said to carry as large a caliber as one can shoot well. Many have posted failures to stop by what are thought to be good manstoppers. Those failures validate the first to sentences. Shoot until the threat is over with the largest caliber you can shoot well.

CobrayCommando
March 1, 2006, 06:40 PM
I've really enjoyed reading the opinions and war/non-war stories. I would interject just a couple of things. One, COM is actually the "motor" of the body (i.e. heart, lungs, etc.) and is the largest area on the target (you could even say the ultimate aiming point is right at the heart, though you might be considered overly optimistic if you expected to actually pierce the heart), so you get increased hit probability (a good thing) and the largest potential for hitting something important (i.e. heart, lungs, etc.). For those reasons, I would hestitate to call aiming at COM "stupid" or any other demeaning adjective.

Actually, wrong. Look at the x ring of center mass targets, its in the guts. Thats what most police agencies teach to aim for these days, the guts.

the heart is well above center mass.

WeaponX
March 1, 2006, 06:59 PM
It's pretty amazing what the human body can take. The guy could have been on a controlled substance like PCP, in which he would haven't felt anything, or like previously mentioned, the pure adreniline rush.

Even more amazing, I recently watched a video clip from a State Patrolman's cruiser in which after a skirmish with a man the trooper pulled over, the assailant was shot 5 out of 6 rounds from the patrolman's S&W with .357 +P hollow point and lived. The assailant shot the patrolman with one round from a .22 derringer, which struck the trooper in the side of the rib cage, between the front and back of his vest, and severed his aorta.

How you live through 5 rounds of .357 +P center mass is beyond me. I just hope that guy felt the injection in his arm when they executed him.

WeaponX
"you sleep peacefully in your beds at night because good men stand guard willing to do harm on your behalf"

riverrat66
March 1, 2006, 07:26 PM
Sheesh! Do I feel left out or what?! I'm probably the only one on this thread who hasn't gone to Nam, Korea, broken a bone, got shot, etc... Kudos to all who served, and continue to do so. Oh wait, I stepped barefoot on a scorpion one time! That hurt WAAAAY more than a beesting!
Bullets are strange things, sometimes they don't kill when they should, and sometimes they kill when they shouldn't. Marinate on that for a while...
Do I detect a bit of sarcasm there? Is someone having an identity crisis or feeling a little inadequate? Is it our fault you've lived a sheltered life? Then why even bother to respond to this thread at all? Sorry but crap like this really ****** me off!

Dave85
March 1, 2006, 09:22 PM
Sheesh! Do I feel left out or what?! I'm probably the only one on this thread who hasn't gone to Nam, Korea, broken a bone, got shot, etc... Marinate on that for a while...
This is a severe and misleading edit of Smoke Screen's full post.
Some of the text cut out:
Kudos to all who served, and continue to do so.
If that was meant in a sarcastic tone, I did not detect it.
Also...
Marinate on that for a while...
follows-and is in apparent reference to:
Bullets are strange things, sometimes they don't kill when they should, and sometimes they kill when they shouldn't.
This seems like a reasonable observation to me. And on topic.

Let us assume the best intentions of each poster until they make clear and open attacks. Otherwise we run the risk of investing our own peeves into innocent posts.

Besides, that kind of editing will put you in jeopardy of being hired by NBC news! (I'm pretty sure that last crack was ironic, not sarcastic. Okay, maybe sardonic.:D )

Aus
March 1, 2006, 10:12 PM
The book, "We were soldiers once" recounts finding a wounded soldier holding his head after a firefight who said, 'don't bother with me, I'm already dead'.
He had been shot in the forehead betwen the eyes.

riverrat66
March 1, 2006, 10:23 PM
Hey Dave, do ya feel better I fixed it for ya!:D I still think it was a sarcastic remark better not said and who said anything about off topic?

TX_RGR
March 2, 2006, 01:18 AM
Actually, wrong. Look at the x ring of center mass targets, its in the guts. Thats what most police agencies teach to aim for these days, the guts.

the heart is well above center mass.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words...

A green popsicle for the person who can find center mass on this target.

Dave85
March 2, 2006, 01:46 AM
My "on topic" remark was meant only to say that he had legitimate business posting. No other implication was intended.
And thank you for changing that.

Odd Job
March 2, 2006, 03:12 AM
@ TX RGR

According to where the X is on that target picture you posted, I would guess that it is either directly on the right atrium of the heart, or very close to it. On that picture, it is a chest shot just above the diaphragm.

MEDDAC19
March 2, 2006, 09:36 AM
Just thought after a long read that I would correct a misconception repeated several times in this thread.

Adrenaline or epinephrine, is a neurotransmitter secreted in moments of crisis, the old fight or flight response. It makes the heart beat faster and work harder, increases the flow of blood to the muscles, causes increased mental awareness, and produces other changes in the body to meet an emergency.

Endorphins, are hormone-like substances produced in the brain that have pain-relieving properties. It is the endorphins that act as the super pain reliever. Morphine and heroin are drugs that were made to react with are brain's endorphine receptors, that is why they relieve pain. Unfortunately they don't work as well and have some other inherent problems.

riverrat66
March 2, 2006, 09:45 AM
I don't know how to superimpose this view of the heart location onto the mass target shown above but it's pretty darn close. The "guts" are well below that point of impact.

threegun
March 2, 2006, 10:43 AM
Looks pretty close to the 10 ring on the silhouette to me.

riverrat66
March 2, 2006, 11:29 AM
Thought that I would correct a misconception repeated several times in this thread.
When we said "Adrenaline is better than morphine" we did not not mean as a long term pain killer. What we meant was when a person is "pumped up" on adrenaline it is sometimes better then morphine in the sense that one does not feel any pain from an injury suffered while under the influence of adrenaline. Once the adrenaline rush wears off the pain sets in where as the morphine depending on the dosage would last much longer. Does that make sense?

stephen426
March 2, 2006, 11:49 AM
CobrayCommando,

No handgun round will reliably "put someone down", as in drop dead instantly, even if you hit the vitals, and especially if you don't. It happens, but eventually your going to run into someone who simply doesn't feel like laying down.

Let me pop you one in the melon (preferably between the eyes with the wimpy 9mm) and then you can shoot me with a howitzer anywhere you damn well please. A well placed shot (head shot) is a reliable stopper with a handgun. A handgun is a deadly weapon and to ignore that fact is folly. It is also fooly to expect that a shot from a handgun will reliably kill someone with one shot to the chest, even with a .45 acp.

Handguns Kill!

riverrat66
March 2, 2006, 12:10 PM
Absafrigginlutly!

stephen426 + 1

threegun
March 3, 2006, 06:51 AM
Hence, shoot until the threat is over. Great post Stephen.

Double Naught Spy
March 3, 2006, 09:09 AM
So Riverrat, let me get this straight. You originally noted that you told that that a sniper would be shooting at that spot below the nose to shut off a guy like a lightswitch, but in reality it was something you heard on the History Channel? Then thank you for the verification that the statement was over simplified.



Just exactly what is your point? I only stated a fact for what I knew it to be but as usual someone has to find fault with what someone says and humble us all with their superior knowledge and wisdom all for the sake of inflating their own ego. So I guess I should stand corrected.

My point? Your fact that you stated wasn't a fact. That is the point.


After reading all that mumbo jumbo that you obviously copy & pasted, how am I to know that it is indeed correct or just the opinion of someone who enjoys a blatant over-simplification or an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics.

I am sorry you were unable to understand. I suggest you go spend time on the LIfetime network and come back after you understand anatomy.


I could kick you in the balls and not produce the desired result also but I'm not going to write 10 paragraphs on why it should be a straight on kick and not a glancing blow yada, yada, yada.


So I take it you learned this as well from your TV sniper buddy on the History Channel?

I explained clearly why the shot is over-simplified as described or stated by a person who isn't up to speed on anatomy. The shot is a very complex shot to make because of all the parameters involved. I take it that the sniper that talks to you from the TV failed to explain to you just what causes the lights to go off.

FYI, when I copy and paste stuff, I cite the web page.

threegun
March 3, 2006, 11:49 AM
Snipers don't only shoot for the head anyway. Carlos Hathcock, arguably the greatest sniper in American history killed most of his 93 confirmed enemy kills with non head shots. I read the book 93 confirmed kills and remember a general, Apache, a kid riding a bike loaded with ak-47's, and a bunch of enemy soldiers (I think a company)he pinned down for over a day.

#18indycolts
March 4, 2006, 01:32 AM
I read that book too...but need to refresh my memory. Wasn't that the longest recorded kill ever? 2,500 yards? Thats almost 1.5 miles away! And that was with a .50 cal machine gun fitted with an unertl scope!!!! C. Hathcock was the best ever!:eek:

Niantician
March 4, 2006, 06:35 AM
Yeah but all those kills were with rifle rounds, we are talking about handguns. totally different.

scaryFORDman
March 4, 2006, 07:16 AM
I really think that this whole discussion about "a pistol shot will or won't kill" is primarily a waste of time.
I think that it varys depending on the situation. Yes, many have survived a gun shot to the abs, chest, head, etc........but there have been MANY, MANY more that have NOT survived the exact same shots.
The whole point SHOULD be, be armed and ready..............it greatly increases your chances of making it home safe and sound.;)

riverrat66
March 4, 2006, 05:38 PM
Mr. Double Naught,

I have no intention of getting into a debate with you but if you're going to nit-pick every word I said let me clarify a few things. The statement I made about a sniper aiming for the spot below the nose I saw on a program about police snipers on The History Channel. They showed a man holding a hostage with a knife to her throat and needed to "shut him off like a switch" so he could not harm her and they did indeed do so by aiming at that exact point, just below the nose! He fell into a heap without making so much as a sound. I saw this video with my own eyes but of course you'll say the video was doctored! Sorry but the program was not about anatomy and exactly why the sniper aimed for that particular spot.

I simply mentioned that "light switch" comment as an after thought but you felt the need to enlighten us all on how "I was told by a person who enjoys blatant over-simplification or has an amazingly poor understanding of terminal ballistics. " It was only an hour long program and maybe they didn't have the time to go into all the details of anatomy and the fact that the shot is a very complex shot to make because of all the parameters involved. I suppose I could contact The History Channel and tell them you're ****** about that!

I suppose if I had mentioned how blue the sky is around here you would have felt compelled to provide a thesis on the weather and atmosphere just to show everyone how brilliant you are.
So I take it you learned this as well from your TV sniper buddy on the History Channel?
More sarcasm? My aren't we being defensive.
FYI, when I copy and paste stuff, I cite the web page.
So what the hell does that got to do with anything? I could copy and paste the bible but that doesn't make me an expert on religion! So you "cited" it from the web, does that makes it fact or correct? That's like saying if it ain't in the New York Post it ain't true! (Yes Virgina.)

You know I've got a brother-in-law who always, no matter what we're talking about has to say, well ya know actually that's not right or he says no, no you're wrong! He insults everyones intelligence and no one in the family wants to talk to him because he thinks he's an expert on everything!

Just thought I'd mention that as an after thought.