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Doug.38PR
February 22, 2006, 08:34 PM
Okay:
Something doesn't go the way of the "poor" and "oppressed." A court decision is made or some legislation doesn't go through and riots start breaking out around the city.
It's after 6 and everybody in your neighborhood by and large is home and about to sit down for supper. Then a riot breaks out in your area of town. Police are scattered about and can help you and your neighbors with maybe one or two officers at best (against an entire mob of rioters and looters).

In more detail the rioting has spread and the poor of the HUD Housing apartment projects next to your surburban neighborhood have broken out and started looting the surrounding convenient stores, drug stores and are burning and looting the houses in your neighborhood only a few blocks away. You can hear hooting, hollering and gunshots from the distance.

You have at your estimate 20-30 minutes before they start working their way to your block. What is the best defense? Consider the following things:

Should you distribute your guns and the guns of others on your block among the men in your neighborhood and take positions?

What would be the fastest way to rally everyone? Pick up the phone and start calling around? Run to each door?

Supposing you and your neighbors do rally men enough in time, what is your next move? Barricade the streets on your block off with cars and such, with some men monitoring the back yards on the perimeter of the block?

Where do you put the women and children?

Who is going to be in charge? (If the police can send a man or two then obviously he is your captain.)

For those of you who are LEOs, how to riot mobs typically operate? Are they relatively organized or are they independent lowlifes who just run around burning and looting?

Blackwater OPS
February 22, 2006, 08:43 PM
I am on the roof with my socom 16, a 15 million candle power spotlight, bull horn, and plenty of ammo. My house is located at a nice strategic corner where I can see all approaches for about 6 blocks from cover on my roof. It’s also at the peak of a hill. Rioters approaching will be ordered by load speaker to go riot some other place, with a few .308 blanks fired off for emphasis. Rioters trying to cross the street 2 blocks from my home are not going to make it. As far as other home owners assisting, I would welcome any help and be glad to hand out a rifle or shotgun so someone could watch my back, but I'm in pansiefornia so it’s not likely to happen.

rapier144
February 22, 2006, 09:14 PM
If you have a 20 to 30 minute window why not leave and get your wife and kids out. You can replace most everything else.

model 25
February 22, 2006, 09:51 PM
Rioters flow to the path of least resistance. They are there for opertunity to express their rage and grab what they can while they can. Some of them may take it to a fight if you look easy but most will not attack you if they see you are armed and ready with enough power to make their life over.

Watch the tapes after Rodney Kings verdict. They grab the guys that are sheep and beat them to death yet when it came to the Korean shop owners they couldn't get close. The last post is probably right to get out of the area and let you insurance pay for thing of value. If you can't get out though you better put up a good fight.

You don't have to kill to make a point with a gun and starting out with rubber buckshot (if possible) to warn them off may help. I live where this won't happen and I never worry about it but I still keep rubber buck around so I don't have to kill.

25

Doug.38PR
February 22, 2006, 10:21 PM
If you have a 20 to 30 minute window why not leave and get your wife and kids out. You can replace most everything else.


It's hard to replace a home, funishings, clothes, food etc unless you are extremely well to do. And even then it is costly. Think about all those homes destroyed in Katrinia. Your life is more than just the beating of your heart. They say a man's home is his castle, I say stay and fight for it.

Besides in a situation like that, where exactly are you going to go with riots going on around town. You are on the streets alone and with no friends to aid you and can be pulled from your car, have your car stoned, have your car shot at, etc. Yes you can run over rioters but your car can still be damaged and then you are stranded. Considering that, I'd say it would be best to stick with armed friends and neighbors and fortify your block, street or even home.

rex
February 22, 2006, 10:58 PM
I agree with Doug. It could be much more dangerous on the street if there is no clear "escape route." Even if I did have a clean escape route, I don't know if I would want to leave my home behind to get trashed. I think most looters will walk by when they see that the homeowner is armed and willing to defend himself and his property. I just hope that this sort of thing never happens where I live.

Springfield XD40 Man
February 22, 2006, 11:33 PM
I'd have a 12 gauge with a bandolier full of shells. If someone or a group of people approached my home in a threatening manner, I'd fire a couple of warning shots. If they persisted, then it would get ugly. I'd be standing on my front porch, shotgun in plain sight. The LA riot scenario comes to mind, those that were armed, were by and large left alone.

Trip20
February 23, 2006, 08:17 AM
If that happens I'm going to boot up my PC and consult this thread. :rolleyes:

shield20
February 23, 2006, 08:42 AM
Jeep goes across my driveway. I'm behind it with the Scout M1A and bandoliers. .45s are on the hips. Only one of my neighbors is as shooter - so handing out my guns ain't gonna happen. If a few of my B-I-L are visiting, they can grab the M1 & carbine. Son will be shooter eventually, but he is a bit young yet, though can hit what he aims at.

Family is in the house. .41 and shotgun are on the porch by or inside the front door.

1st rioter brandishing a gun and heading up the street...becomes their highwater mark on that block.

elmrich
February 23, 2006, 09:47 AM
I believe I would use my AK-47 and try to pick off as many as possible before they got to close to my house.

TooTall
February 23, 2006, 10:21 AM
In 1965, I was 18 years old and still living with my parents near LAX, which is about 20 miles away from the Watts area. Everyone within about 100 miles of the riot were scared, but the majority of the looting and burning took place in a relatively confined area that surrounded Watts. There were some minor skirmishes in the City of Long Beach, but they were ended quickly. Most of the burning and looting was done in commercial/business areas, with very few residential areas being involved, and most of those were within Watts.

The police and "whitey" were the targets, but most of the injuries and deaths turned out to be black people. By the way, the "official" death toll was, I believe, 62 people. "Unofficially", however, there were over 200 people that were killed! They only published the "official" list of those that they could identify through fingerprint and dental records. The remainder of those that were killed were supposedly "anonymous" due to having been illegitimately born, without any available ways of identifying them.

The "Rodney King riot" was, for the most part, centered in the South/Central region of Los Angeles. If you recall, the 4 LAPD officers had been on trial in Simi Valley, which is about 95% white. When the acquittals were handed down, the Simi Valley PD feared that their city would have problems, but they didn't! Again, the police (LAPD) and "whitey" were the targets of the rioters, and the looting was carried out, for the most part, in the commercial/business areas within the South/Central region of Los Angeles.

In both of those riots, there wasn't much "organization" on the part of the rioters/looters, but there were a LOT of "agitators", and some were white people. The looters consisted of every race and age groups. About the only thing that the looters had in common was that they were all "low income" folks, taking advantage of the situation to take what they couldn't afford to buy.

Having lived through those two chaotic times, there were several things that eventually became obvious as to why they took place. Both were racially-motivated. Both took place due to previous law enforcement incidents. Both riots took place when the weather was warm and the humidity level was high. Generally, the targetted businesses consisted of (A) liquor stores and "mom/pop"-type grocery stores, (B) many large "discount"-type stores, and (C) the smaller businesses that "happened" to be located on major streets within the riot area. The "racial" aspect of things came out in BOLDNESS, with countless black-owned businesses posting signs that read "Black Owned" in front. Of course, that didn't stop the fires from destroying them! There was even a black L.A. City Councilman's "substation" office that was completely destroyed.

The bottom line: If you live in relatively "safe" place, stay at home. If you absolutely have to go the the grocery store, make it a nearby one and try to use residential streets to get there and back, instead of using any major streets. Don't panic just because the riotting "seems" to be getting closer to where you live. Get with your neighbors, and discuss the situation with them, but TRY to keep it "reasonable", which will benefit everyone. Try to realize that the news media will give a hysteria-based accounting of what is going on. News reporters will be in the fringe area of "Ground Zero", and since they're scared, their reporting will only cause MASS hysteria and even more confusion.

Striker
February 23, 2006, 10:37 AM
20-30 Minutes?

Grab wife, kids, dogs, and prepacked go bag and egress area ASAP.

SBrocker8
February 23, 2006, 11:32 AM
Well, though I doubt this would ever happen in my area, this is one REALLY good use for the AK. The guy who commented that the first armed one would be the high water mark was right on the money!

Dan M.
February 23, 2006, 11:49 AM
Being a So Cal native for nearly 50 years, I totally agree with TooTall. Businesses with desirable commodities paid the biggest price in the Rodney King riots, although the Long Beach/Signal Hill DMV was burned--hmm...somebody with a bone to pick at the DMV?? Go figure. ;) Neighborhoods were not targetted. There may have abeen isolated incidences in residential areas, but they were more likely the result of long-standing grievances between individuals than they were random occurances. People traveling through the riot areas were in more danger than the ones in those areas who stayed home and kept a low profile. BUT there's nothing wrong with keeping your guns close, being watchful, and in talking with a few trusted neighbors to get an idea of the mindset and capabilities on your street.

Dwight55
February 23, 2006, 07:07 PM
Personally, . . . I really like the idea of gitting my stuff and gitting, . . . trouble is, . . . there really ain't no better place for me to go to.

I have water, food, shelter, ammunition, weapons, communication, and a certain amount of "control" here on my 10 acre hacienda, . . . on the road I am at the mercy of every one else.

I think I would probably opt for the stand still and stand tall scenario. If I knew I had 20 - 30 minutes, . . . I might use it to put up a hasty sign that let anyone coming down the 600 foot driveway know that a 3 x 9 is watching their every move.

May God bless, . . .
Dwight

Glenn E. Meyer
February 23, 2006, 08:05 PM
This has a touch of I want to shoot someone.

Let's back up. Years ago I took military history from a major general PhD who became a prof. He taught that you start with a strategic goal.

My strategic goal is not to get hurt and not for my familty to get hurt. I've almost died a few times and doing it for my couch and wedding album doesn't appeal to me. Nor does making a political statement about the 'poor' - always a subtext in these thread - mean anything to me.

Thus, my actions branch towards whatever keeps me unhurt and my loved ones unhurt. If I can get away - that would be my first priority. I have insurance and even if I didn't - I would prefer to rebuild without having to recover from serious injury. Even if you were commando boy, do you want to exchange rounds with some folks who might pepper your house and nail your loved ones.

Also, with 20-30 minutes, you might fantasize organizing the neighborhood to follow you but it might turn into herding cats. For example, I live in a diverse but nice neighborhood and when white commando boy opines about shooting minorities - some might take offense when they see one drooling anticipation over the coming outrage. If we were to organize, I hope there is a military man or LEO to come to the fore rather than an internet commando. I certainly am not listening to some wild eyed youngster.

If you really live so close to a transitional neighborhood - move if you fear the riot.

Glockamolie
February 23, 2006, 08:30 PM
In general, I think you're much more exposed to harm if you leave your home, rather than stay. As a resident of the Texas Gulf Coast (NW Houston, right off of the "parade route" where many were being funneled out of town), we had a little problem when everyone tried to escape Hurricane Rita. Be it a natural disaster, or a man-made catastrophe, if I'm home, I'm staying. If I'm NOT home, I'm going there if I can. I have food, water, clothing, guns, etc at my home. That's the place to be if you ask me. I don't know about a neighborhood posse, but teaming up with at least one other like-minded individual would be good. At least you could sleep in shifts, should there be a need for watching your property on an extended basis.

okiejack
February 24, 2006, 03:01 PM
running is no longer an option. I'd stay put and defend my home as best I could. If I lived in town? I might think different.

invention_45
February 24, 2006, 03:33 PM
TooTall and Glen Meyer: Put these together and you have the right idea.

If you live right in the heart of the rioting, I don't know what to tell you other than have loaded weapons and good luck.

If you are as close as you describe, it's probably best to just sit tight. In the Liberty City riots in Miami in the late '60s and in 1980, the damage was pretty much confined to Liberty City itself. Most damage was to businesses on the main streets through that area, 27th and 22nd avenues, and little elsewhere. The only other people killed were those who happened to get off the main highway (i-95) and wander into the area.

I was maybe 5 miles from the area, so it never occurred to me that I was in danger, but it was pretty frightening at nights when I could hear lots of sirens and helicopters and what I thought was gunfire.

In the 1980 riot, I was about to leave to drive down to FIU for a class. I stepped out on my front porch and saw a plume of thick black smoke in the direction of the Miami Airport. I figured a jet had gone down, and I thought briefly of driving over to see it. Good thing I was running just in time for the class, because that smoke was from Norton Tires, set fire by the rioters.

Donovan655
February 25, 2006, 02:46 AM
TooTall's post was great.

it seems like if you knew exactly where the rioting was and could avoid the area then i'd suggest leaving.

but this type of knowledge is probably not so certain that you could assure yourself a hassle free getaway.

defending yourself from a mob of people (some armed perhaps) with a few pistols would be exceedingly difficult.

even if you had a custer's last stand on your front lawn i could envision the mob approaching and after you shoot towards them they get even more ****** and charge toward you. then its 20,30,150 to 1,2, maybe five.

even if they aren't armed at all but charging at you it'd be really difficult to take them all down unless you've got a full auto carbine or ak.

i'd say arm yourself to the teeth and leave on the safest known route.

Delta Dave
February 25, 2006, 10:44 AM
are we going west on I10? That seems like the best direction, less population heading toward El Paso so less likelyhood that any disturbance will follow. From my vantage point, I think you're exactly right. If there is a moderately safe way out of the area, take it. If my family and I are alive we can rebuild.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 25, 2006, 06:19 PM
Anywhere on the big roads out of San Antonio will get you into country that has a low probability of urban violence. I would go to Kerrville or Bandera and have some BBQ.

I would watch on the TV, video of the mob chasing Doug38PR around his house. :D

Sorry about that! Live on the outskirts of your town if you fear violence. We do and can be serious country in a minute or two.

rapier144
February 25, 2006, 06:32 PM
ROFLMAO.How fast can he sprint i wonder.:D

aspen1964
February 25, 2006, 07:33 PM
...the cut and run types are forgetting that once confined in a car...someone can ambush you and riddle your car(and occupants with bullets)...or shoot you through the windshield at a distance...

..best to stay behind a strong defense...

...I want to shoot someone?...sure do, as soon as they come to attack me...

...this isn't the first time I have thought this scenario possible, things being what they are today...thats why I live by the Scout motto...

..things can be replaced?...those things were bought by my mortal life's finite time..that time cannot be replaced...yield to evil only when you cannot stand against it...

Rapier can watch Aspen piling up the dead bodies when things have ended...

threefivesevenmag
February 25, 2006, 07:42 PM
Why do we always have to defend against riots?

Too much Hollywood, not enough tactics. If you are in the heart of a riot or a mob is coming to get you...well, say your prayers and be as tacti-cool as you want.

Hard Ball
February 25, 2006, 08:34 PM
New Orleans sfter the hurricane tells us two things

1) The police may take no action against rioters and looters. You cannot count on them. They may try to confiscate your guns. Do not be a "good citizen and give them up.

2) Rioters and looters fear people with guns. A determined man with a good semiautomatic rifle and lots of spare magazines can usually demoralize them and drive them off.

aspen1964
February 25, 2006, 09:25 PM
true..true..+ rioteers will probably fear you more than the cops since you don't have a police ethical code to worry about..whats Miranda????:confused:

rapier144
February 25, 2006, 09:53 PM
If you look at when riots that break out in the worlds third world countries what's one of the first things you see. The abandonment of the embassies. Those are fortified postions and yet they get out while the gettings good.They know they can't last a long term seige.And in a riot you don't know how long it will last. Its not worth the cost to stay. Sure they can kill quite a few of the rioters. I will retreat til i have no choice but to fight.Staying in my stick framed house and taking cover behind my refrigerator is not my idea of having a tactical advantage.But thats just my opinion. Sorry don't mean to P.O. anyone.

aspen1964
February 25, 2006, 10:05 PM
when in a foreign country surrounded by foreign uptight people..getting out IS a good idea...your own country is different..sticks?...house of the three little pigs????

22-rimfire
February 25, 2006, 10:58 PM
Rioters are usually poorly armed. If I'm in fear of my life, I don't know what would happen until it happened. But, I would stand my ground-live or die.

Against an organized force (army), I would flee as quickly as possible.

Ga Johnny
February 25, 2006, 11:17 PM
Glenn,

That was great, my sides are killing me now but it was worth it.



Commando boy and the neighborhood ninjas to the rescue, don't worry mister, I got my ak 47 here and I've been killing people (on paper targets) for years there's nothing to it. I can see it now

riverrat66
February 26, 2006, 12:07 AM
Well, it's after 6pm which means it's gonna be dark soon and I only have twenty minutes to get prepared. If I leave it will take me all of 20 minutes just to load my weapons and ammo into my truck not counting my family and the dog. Then I have to consider how large is the riot or is it a civil war? I live in a suburban neighborhood and if I start shooting I might be shooting into my neighbors house so I would have to pick my shots very carefully and it's gonna be dark soon. Do I really want to try to get out and away to my land in the boonies where no one will bother me? It's after 6pm and it will be dark soon! My son and I could cover almost the entire neighborhood from the roof (he was with the 82nd airborne) and our families could hide in the basement but it's gonna be dark soon. Do you get my drift? It's gonna be dark soon and that changes everything! If it was daylight I could sit up on the roof and have a turkey shoot all day long but in darkness it's an entirely different ballgame. In darkness someone could toss a Molotov cocktail on your house and you would never know where it came from and now you're really in trouble.
To be honest I don't know what I would do until that time actually came. I would have to weigh my options and decide what was in the best interest for me and my family at that particular time. But don't think that I haven't thought about it, that's why I have thousands of rounds of ammo for my many rifles and handguns. The only thing I don't have is body armor but that's a different thread. :D

Geopagus
February 26, 2006, 12:08 AM
For those of you strongly opinionated one way or the other. Get over it. It's not always feasible to stay nor is it always feasible to go and I know this from personal experience. :mad: Be prepared and do the best you can with the means you have.

aspen1964
February 26, 2006, 12:18 AM
I move on to lighter, happier threads...:)

Geopagus
February 26, 2006, 12:24 AM
As do I aspen ;) Exit stage right.

azredhawk44
February 26, 2006, 12:26 AM
If you look at when riots that break out in the worlds third world countries what's one of the first things you see. The abandonment of the embassies. Those are fortified postions and yet they get out while the gettings good.

Yeah, but they have marines covering their butts while evacuating, they have blackhawks and apaches for air cover, and they are usually evacuating to a known-safe location on an aircraft carrier about 10 miles out to sea.

If I leave in my Dodge pickup, I've got 50,000 other yahoos who chose to leave at the same time, clogging up the highway so no one can move and any given car is easy pickings for rioters or opportunists.

My house is a better site. Board up the doors, secure the windows, make sure you have 2-3 fire escape routes and get a good vantage point from the second floor with as many rounds in as many guns as you can get.

Blackwater OPS
February 26, 2006, 03:07 AM
Hmmm, I simply stated what I would do, without personal attacks on anyone else. I you think its best to evac, then do so. If you think its best to stay and fight then do that. I live in LA and I still remember the 92' riots. I am not going to get caught on the street behind some other cars, get dragged out and beaten to death. In fact the whole point is probably moot since there will certainly be a tac alert and I wont be home to protect my house anyways. Bottom line is standing my ground and protecting my home does not make me or anyone else a "Commando boy and the neighborhood ninjas". In fact there is quite a tradition of doing just that in this country. Stop the name calling and grow up.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 26, 2006, 12:58 PM
The key issue is your goal state. Mine is to survive along with my family.

The initial poster had saving material positions as a close to equally important priority.

The initial poster also decided to start the thread with Something doesn't go the way of the "poor" and "oppressed." .

I regard that as irrelevant baiting. One might has easily have said that you are a minority and a racist mob is coming to your house. This has in fact happened. African-american men defended their homes and let their families escape.

Thus, one has to discuss mind set and motive. This is a common discussion in most tactical classes. Even the initial poster had posited in most civilian training classes that he would not take an opportunity to flee because:

Your life is more than just the beating of your heart. They say a man's home is his castle, I say stay and fight for it. .

It would not be judged as a judicious act and probably as posturing.

The only sensible solution to such a situation is:

1. Your priority is you and your family's physical safety.
2. Chose the option that optimizes it.
3. If your action saves your stuff, that is nice but epiphenomenological.

One trains to have the ability to use lethal force - as a tool for saving your butt first.

OneInTheChamber
February 26, 2006, 07:11 PM
Well, when the mob is over running my location; I bet the reloaders won't be far behind. They're gonna want that huge pile of brass that will be next to my body.

I won't hand myself over to the control of an out of control mob.

LICCW
February 26, 2006, 09:40 PM
For me, I have to know whether its winter or summer. My house is waterfront, I get my wife, dog, guns, bankbooks etc and get on my boat and I'm gone man. Not worried about traffic on the water, and no one is sneaking up on me once I'm just a few yards offshore. I'll head across the bay and be in another state in 20 minutes. let 'em burn my house. Steal what? my Pier-One furniture? My cheapest one they had at Best Buy DVD? If you saw my house and stuff you'd think only an idiot would defend it. I'm not saying that I'd do the same thing if my house and stuff were really nice. Gun wise i only own one 870, one J frame 340PD, Glock 26, and AR-15. I recently sold off everything else. What would I do if it was winter and the boat's out of the water. Well now I'm a little screwed, but I'd high-tail it if possible. My neigbors are not going to be much help. But they make easy targets, and I don't by comparison, so that might help:p

Mannlicher
February 27, 2006, 03:28 PM
Doug38pr, do you stay awake at night thinking up these off the wall scenerios? :)

Doug.38PR
February 27, 2006, 09:23 PM
The key issue is your goal state. Mine is to survive along with my family.

The initial poster had saving material positions as a close to equally important priority.

The initial poster also decided to start the thread with Something doesn't go the way of the "poor" and "oppressed." .

I regard that as irrelevant baiting. One might has easily have said that you are a minority and a racist mob is coming to your house. This has in fact happened. African-american men defended their homes and let their families escape.

Thus, one has to discuss mind set and motive. This is a common discussion in most tactical classes. Even the initial poster had posited in most civilian training classes that he would not take an opportunity to flee because:

Your life is more than just the beating of your heart. They say a man's home is his castle, I say stay and fight for it. .

It would not be judged as a judicious act and probably as posturing.

The only sensible solution to such a situation is:

1. Your priority is you and your family's physical safety.
2. Chose the option that optimizes it.
3. If your action saves your stuff, that is nice but epiphenomenological.

One trains to have the ability to use lethal force - as a tool for saving your butt first.


Mr. Meyer (Prof.? I think you mentioned you taught college in another post?)
My post has nothing per se to do with what race the "poor" and "oppressed" might be or might not be (the riots of the French Revolution were white on white. Revolutionaries of all races and backgrounds have always managed to find some problem real or imagined and blown it up to work up those who have less against those who have more in the name of "justice".), it has nothing to do with some wild eyed kid running around in a G.I. Joe outfit or "commando boy and the neighborhood ninjas". It's about a sound and rational man (you me or whoever) having good enough relations with his neighbors to cooperate with them as to defending our homes in an effective and competent way. As far as your neighborhood people being offended at having to take up arms because the rioters might be of a different race doesn't speak well for your neighbors. If a mob of any race is ready to ransack my home and beat me and my family to death and those on my street "I'd kill them as quick as I would a white man" to quote John Wayne (Cahill: U.S. Marshall). In short, race isn't an issue. I would venture to say that you underestimate your neighbors.

It is not about posturing. That statement, while it sounds like an abstract battle cry, is true. If you did what you believe to be right, getting out of Dodge with the wife and children, you would likely come back to a burned pile of rubble. Your home is gone, your clothing is gone, your food is gone, your furnishings are gone, your books are gone, your computer is gone, and family heirlooms are gone to name just a few important items that are either necessities for life, part of your life or part of long hours or even years research or investments that cost a lot of money that you worked hard for.
That is VERY difficult to recover from and could take years, even if your insurance covers it all (I've heard of flood and fire insurance....but riot insurance?...guess it would fall under fire.). You would have to take time off from your job to rebuild and restore yourself. You would have to dig up enough money out of your savings to clothe and feed your family for a long period of time while likey not being able to work due to all the time needed to rebuild and recover. You would have to have a place for you and your family to live in the meantime which would either be renting a home, staying with family or buying a whole new home altogether. Again, think about all those hurricane refugees. Many of them have nothing to go back to...and the poorer ones had very little besides the roof over their head to begin with.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 28, 2006, 11:43 AM
Oh, give me a break. I won't like to lose my house but you are just posturing.

I would give my house a 1000 times over if I get my wife and kid to safety. Anybody who doesn't see that is an idiot, to be blunt.

Also, you did play the race card and posture. Tough if you don't buy it.

I'm a psychologist (prof) and I understand hidden motivations, Doug and for our readers, you have a consistent tendency not to evaluate the best outcome of situations but continually go for a gun based solution even if it is clearly not in your best interest. You need to work on this. I hate to be harsh but that's what I read. I see you wanting to be the hero that organizes the neighborhood against the 'poor' and 'oppressed'.

In your scenario, if I have 30 minutes to get out of the way of a major riot with unknown numbers and weaponery - while I do have significant firearms - I'm gone.

If I knew that fleeing was dangerous and I had sufficient time for a realistic defense - not a fantasy - I might like the Korean merchants defend my property. Your scenario is a get out of Dodge one - unless fleeing is more risky to my life.

Do you have children? Name for me one physical position that is worth a child. I went through a significant life threatener last year with my daughter. If you told me, I could gurantee her life by burning my house to the ground - give me the matches. If Satan told me to put you inside when it burned, I would have done that.

Now, I'm faced with a mob but I could get her and the wife to safety. NO, I'm going to stay there and fight it out for the couch and my computer. What pure stupidity.

BTW, you can backup your computer externally and off site. You can buy a new Dell for $399.

newerguy
February 28, 2006, 12:21 PM
I know a good criminal defense lawyer who charges about $100K for a murder defense. Add to that your investigator, court and witness fees, travel expenses, even photocopying charges, plus your lost time from work, and an acquittal in a trial might run you almost $200,000. Seems someone needs to put up their house when there is going to be a murder trial. Even if you win the murder case, you can still get a conviction for brandishing a weapon, discharging a firearm within 500 feet of a dwelling (NYS Law) or something that that, and live with a violent crime on your record. In my case, an arrest (no a conviction) for a crime must be reported to my employer and I can be fired. That has a cost too.

Forget civil suits afterwards, you might get sued or your might not. Some people win, some don't.

I don't want to shoot anyone. Some people either want to, or don't care whether they take a life. Fine, don't let it bother you. Just remember, that if you do, you run the risk of a prosecutor making you spend everything in your savings, including the value of your house, to win an acquittal. You want to risk losing your home and your savings for some property that's insured or for $100 in your wallet?

I won't risk everything I have for a few bucks and a credit card I can cancel in 15 minutes. I won't risk everything for a house that's insured or some old pictures. Sorry to say, I won't even risk everything to save a stranger I think might be getting held up (but might be getting arrested).

Leif
February 28, 2006, 12:40 PM
No internet commando here ... if there's a massive civil disturbance and escape is possible, I'm gone.

The point was made that one's possessions were not worth dying for. I wholeheartedly agree. I would add, at risk of becoming flameworthy, that nothing I own is worth killing for, either, even if that means it's gone and the insurance isn't going to cover it. If forced into a position of defense, it's not going to be because I'm defending my TV, or guns, or whatever. I'm not taking human life over property, period.

When people talk about sitting on their roof with their deer rifle, they start to sound like they're acting offensively rather than defensively.

LICCW
February 28, 2006, 12:48 PM
You know, a riot's like a hurricane. You think you can stick it out, that your plans are solid, that you are prepared for everything. Then it turns out you're not, but by then its too late.

Musketeer
February 28, 2006, 01:07 PM
Assuming we can't get out, and given my location on an isthmus that may be true, we stand and fight. I do NOT hand over guns to others. I don't know any of my neighbors well enough to trust with a loaded gun behind me, especially if they have not taken the time to get one of their own and learn how to use it.

Both ends of the street will have a large wood sign painted "Armed Citizens Present. Rioters Will Be Shot!" with a nice pattern of 12 gague 00 in it for emphasis. Given the population density where I am I doubt even one or two officers would be able to make it to our block if the balloon went up.

Plain and simlpe, riots are made up of cowards. These are people who could not do anything on their own and they depend on the mob for support. A concerted and willfull defense will drive them off to easier prey. That being said I really do not want them to come anywhere near my block and would rather not shoot anyone. Note though that as restrictive as NY gun laws and deadly force laws are there is one case where use of deadly force is clearly denoted as acceptable in NYS Penal Law. That is to prevent arson of an occupied dwelling.

Mikeyboy
February 28, 2006, 01:31 PM
Just like Blackwater, I remember the 92 riots and I lived a few blocks away from a Fat Tuesday Riot (which ironically is today) and a few other riots here in Philly. People who drove in the area were pulled from the cars and I will put this politely, those on foot not particpating in the riot were attacked. I hunkered down, loaded up (at the time I had a 30/30 and a 12 gauge defending a condo) and waited. I know for certain that if I tried to get to the car (on street parking so I would have to walk at least a block to my car and I did not have a handgun or a CCW) and drive out "something" might have happened. This is a Big reason why I moved to the burbs. Anyway you are more vunerable out of your home. Trust me, I am not going to fight to the death to save property that is insured, but if your trapped you better taking a defensive position in your home, then trying to move you and your family thru a rioting mob on foot or in a car.

+1 Mustketeer A simple "You Loot, We Shoot" sign should work wonders.

yomama
February 28, 2006, 04:22 PM
I agree with the leaving asap part. However, if this is not an option it's onto plan b. Sun-Tzu said:

"One who knows when he can fight, and when he cannot fight, will be victorious. One who, fully prepared, awaits the unprepared will be victorious."
-Art of War

Jericho9mm
February 28, 2006, 05:42 PM
this thread has shadows of another one but without the "gun owner image" overtones

see thread: here (http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183219)

tegemu
February 28, 2006, 05:46 PM
Run!!!!!!

Trip20
February 28, 2006, 05:50 PM
For the record, I did not start the thread Jericho mentions. TheBluesMan took it upon himself to take a post of mine from an on going thread about hurricane Katrina and law enforcement (I think), and use it to start the discussion.

Jericho9mm
February 28, 2006, 05:59 PM
Hey Trip20 sorry I didnt mean to slam or offend you I was just comparing the reactions from the previous thread to this current one and I find it to be very interesting.

Trip20
February 28, 2006, 06:09 PM
Jericho - just so ya know I didn't take offense in the least. Sorry if my last post sounded as if I did. :)

The thread you mentioned is not one that I would have started as the picture was more for humor than to justify any sort of action. I can't find the original thread in which I posted the picture, but it was more in context with the discussion that was going on at the time.

That's the only reason I made clarification. ;)

RsqVet
March 1, 2006, 06:08 AM
Glenn --

Great response!

Personally my truck is kinda like an escape capsule as it has a lot of tools and gear in it and believe me we woulod be loaded up and gone as a family --- yes one in a vehicle is vulnerable --- but not that vulnerable if you have a brain and know how to drive, a big truck makes it easier but is not essental. Anyone who choses to stay when exit is a good option for purely material items is a fool.

Orginize the neighborhood????? How will you account for your neighbors actions? Does that not seriously go down the road of inciting your own riot? YOU armend them, YOU told them of the threat --- then the shooting erupted. Who here wants to be responsible for the lead that one of their neighbors throws?

Seriously I pray this whole thread is a joke.

How many instances of house to house looting and burning are there in US history? Yes we have had riots, busnesses were looted, some burned and yes after natural disasters there has been looting, however the picture painted of returning to a pile of burned out rubble sounds awful melodramatic to me if we are talking about a residance --- they are 20 min away and you expect what your whole block will be burned? Even if you and your neighbors mount a good SWAT response your lead hose ant's no fire hose so if the block is burning you are screwed and now must evec with the riot there on your tail!

Do you not think that a lot of the suggestions for overt resistance would not make you a focal point for the rage of the rioters if it did come to that? In the end rioters will offten win out through greater number --- I can see it now --- the riot moving down the street causing moderate mayhem and damage to cars / yards and so forth, they come to a sign that says armed homeowner, a wise guy deciedes to try his luck, walks up pitching a fire bomb --- he gets droped, next thing the entire focus of the riot has become that one house, and sadly though you can all have fantasy time about how many you will drop I do not think you will win in the end likley your hose might be the only one compleatly destroyed.

No guys I think if you are at home and chose to stay there is a strong argument towards mantaining a low profile and only goign on the offensive if your hand is forced.

Jericho9mm
March 1, 2006, 04:37 PM
Orginize the neighborhood?????

Yeah, but in all honesty the best time to do it would be after a disaster not just for a riot. post katrina left the gulf region with out many basic needs and criminal authority was one of them. when reentering my area after the immediate threat is over would i hand out my own weapons for use by others? No, but i think most of us feel that way unless they were really good friends or family. so i would try in a maner to do the following:

Create a kind of "Super" Neighborhood Watch, in which there would be a meeting to decide how to proceed. With as many neighbors or heads of housholds as could be present at the meeting create watches each day so those who are coming and going belong there (you really underestimate the power of old people sitting in lawn chairs in their open garage) and to prevent any theft or property destruction that may occur.
The simple fact that a criminal knows people are watching will be deterent enough. These watches can slowly cruise up an down the street every hour or so observing people. Or if you live in a culdesac they could simply sit on a lawn out in the open on a corner or something. night and day. But the key here is to have open communication with your neighbors and if something does happen you can call the authorities with multiple witnesses. Plus this is why cops always support deterence to reaction (less paperwork).

If open carry is allowed then open carry, but the idea is to be as lawful as possible with out giving the criminals an edge.

Doug.38PR
March 7, 2006, 06:19 PM
Oh, give me a break. I won't like to lose my house but you are just posturing.

I would give my house a 1000 times over if I get my wife and kid to safety. Anybody who doesn't see that is an idiot, to be blunt.

Also, you did play the race card and posture. Tough if you don't buy it.

I'm a psychologist (prof) and I understand hidden motivations, Doug and for our readers, you have a consistent tendency not to evaluate the best outcome of situations but continually go for a gun based solution even if it is clearly not in your best interest. You need to work on this. I hate to be harsh but that's what I read. I see you wanting to be the hero that organizes the neighborhood against the 'poor' and 'oppressed'.

In your scenario, if I have 30 minutes to get out of the way of a major riot with unknown numbers and weaponery - while I do have significant firearms - I'm gone.

If I knew that fleeing was dangerous and I had sufficient time for a realistic defense - not a fantasy - I might like the Korean merchants defend my property. Your scenario is a get out of Dodge one - unless fleeing is more risky to my life.

Do you have children? Name for me one physical position that is worth a child. I went through a significant life threatener last year with my daughter. If you told me, I could gurantee her life by burning my house to the ground - give me the matches. If Satan told me to put you inside when it burned, I would have done that.

Now, I'm faced with a mob but I could get her and the wife to safety. NO, I'm going to stay there and fight it out for the couch and my computer. What pure stupidity.

BTW, you can backup your computer externally and off site. You can buy a new Dell for $399.


Hmm, name calling and psychoanalyzing "you really mean what I say you mean."
You started playing the race card, not me.
Perhaps you area well to do Bill Gates who could lose 10 houses 10 times over and not be affected by it but not everyone is that fortunate.
It's not a question of my family or my house. They all go together, they are all part of my life and theirs. Yes, family safety is a priority, but so is the roof over their head and the food on the table which contributes to their health and safety.

The rest of you who raise concern about legal and criminal charges: The major difference between what I am discussing in original post and what you fear is my senario is DEFENSIVE and what you are talking about is going on the OFFENSIVE. Big difference. Neighbors are gathering and fortifying a specific spot and DEFENDING it (and working with police when and if they come around to aid), not going out and around town looking for rioters to shoot down.

Sulaco2
March 7, 2006, 06:51 PM
Get in front of the crowd and chant "ImHoTep, ImHoTep".....Worked in "The Mummy".....

Blackwater OPS
March 7, 2006, 09:49 PM
I think people are still missing the point here. Ask anyone who has been in or near a riot if they think its a good idea to leave the house while the riot is occuring. I am saying I would stay home and defend it because I believe its safer, and as a secondary reason to protect my things. If I had equal chances either way I would stay home for that reason. No one wants to get killed over replaceable objects.

Doug.38PR
March 7, 2006, 10:10 PM
Get in front of the crowd and chant "ImHoTep, ImHoTep".....Worked in "The Mummy".....

LOL!!! Or just get in your car and plow through them....it also worked in "The Mummy":p

I think people are still missing the point here. Ask anyone who has been in or near a riot if they think its a good idea to leave the house while the riot is occuring. I am saying I would stay home and defend it because I believe its safer, and as a secondary reason to protect my things. If I had equal chances either way I would stay home for that reason. No one wants to get killed over replaceable objects.

That's very true

OuTcAsT
March 7, 2006, 10:55 PM
In "theory" I agree that the best place to defend your family is in your home, I am not going to arm my neighborhood, nor consort with my neighbors about a defensive strategy. I will close and lock all doors, close curtains, assemble my weapons, and WAIT. As long as they stay outside, and away from me then they may riot to their hearts content. If they enter my home, or attempt to harm me, or my family, THEN I will defend them with NECESSARY force.

If you assemble a makeshift militia of your neighbors I would venture to guess that If LEOs show up, you will probably be taking a ride to the crossbar hotel and, not be around to defend anything.

Riots can be diffused, an Idiot on his roof with a rifle, or a band of neighbors armed to the teeth and on patrol is an invitation for SWAT to show up and let you see what a bad day in the neighborhood really is.

Blackwater OPS
March 8, 2006, 02:45 AM
an Idiot on his roof with a rifle, or a band of neighbors armed to the teeth and on patrol
Well then, I guess all those Korean shop owners who successfully defended their shops durring the 92' riots here, while everything was destroyed all around them, were complete idiots. If so, thats the kind of idiot I want to be.

threegun
March 8, 2006, 05:53 AM
I was in a riot here in Tampa in the mid 80's. A police officer placed a choke hold on a man and he died later in jail. The minority community errupted in violence despite this guys fighting police like a madman. Anyway as the rioters burned their ghetto, I drove to my grangparents house, which bordered the danger zone. My grandparents refused to leave and my mother was going to go, so I told her I would go in her place. My grandfather and I sat on their porch with my mini-14, shotgun, and pistol. Several neighbors also armed were sitting on thier porches. Riot ended no problemo.

Now I have a family including 2 boys. Now I have a better sense of reality, mortality, ect. I would run if it was an option. I hope that doesn't translate as cowardly because it isn't. If the option to run was not availible, I would prepare to get real nasty. I would setup some makeshift cover and eliminate any threats to my home and family. I wouldn't arm my neighbors except for my dad who is my neighbor and knows how to handle my weapons. My wife and 9 year old can kick some butt also.

My only suggestion is to remain mobile. Getting on the roof gives you visual superiority but you are also exposed. In my community the extra height gives little advantage. I would remain mobile on the ground. Then just use the appropriate weapon as the ranges change.

GSD
March 8, 2006, 06:45 AM
I would give them some lemonaide or water. I live about 25 miles from town, out in the country. That would be one hell of a walk to get here.

Hey, thats one of the reasons I moved out here, so I wouldn't have to deal with those kinds of scenerios.

invention_45
March 8, 2006, 07:48 AM
GSD: how far are you from Midland, and what are housing prices like there?

CmGtSm
March 8, 2006, 04:00 PM
My opinion has been, and always will be, to organize yourself and your neighbors - now. Don't wait for SHTF. Only having 20 to 30 minutes to figure out what to do is really short changing yourself when you, yours, and your neighbors have had years to organize and become an active community.

As I'm fond of saying - take Neighborhood Watch about 10 steps further and get organized now for whatever may happen in the future...don't wait.

It's your neighborhood, keep it. One person alone can't be a neighborhood.

OneInTheChamber
March 8, 2006, 04:41 PM
I believe there is a line that the looting/mob/riot scenario must deal with.

On one side is giving up all possessions, everything you've worked hard for. On the other side is losing what is not fixable (people, pets, etc.). You have to mix both; you can't just leave your life (your home); but you can't let go of real lives.

But, back to the line thing: There is a point where a riot, etc. becomes so out of hand that it is no longer safe to be traveling (remember the coca cola driver who got the **** beat out of him in the Rodney King riots?). When I can't get out, I'll bunker in. It makes no sense to be walking the streets doing patrols; but just bunker in. Don't leave your house, don't let anyone who shows malicious intent near it.

It's all about getting out alive.

Bender711
March 8, 2006, 05:01 PM
OK grab m40, load it up, have one person shine a light on the mob, fire a round over their head. If that dosent stop them start picking off the people that seem to be leading the volience. Get my neighbors to guard the streets and back yards. have my m4 loaded if they get to close.

Doug.38PR
March 8, 2006, 06:10 PM
My opinion has been, and always will be, to organize yourself and your neighbors - now. Don't wait for SHTF. Only having 20 to 30 minutes to figure out what to do is really short changing yourself when you, yours, and your neighbors have had years to organize and become an active community.

As I'm fond of saying - take Neighborhood Watch about 10 steps further and get organized now for whatever may happen in the future...don't wait.

It's your neighborhood, keep it. One person alone can't be a neighborhood.

GREAT point CMGTSM!!
Plan ahead. That way when the neighborhood Paul Revere on the phone calls you and and says "turn out your militia the rioters are coming!" everyone will know what to do.
It might also be a good idea, in addition to working with police when they arrive to keep in touch with the police 911 dispatcher during events to let the police know where y'all are foritfied and where you have neighbors stationed. Keep in touch with them.

You're right, no one person can be a neighborhood.

OuTcAsT
March 8, 2006, 07:17 PM
I would really like for some LEOs to weigh in on this, I don't know about the areas that some of you are in ( I'm in a Nashville TN suburb) but I can see it now..........

911 : What is your emergency ?
Joe Citizen: Yes, we hear the riots are getting close to our neighborhood and I just wanted you to know that our street is armed, and protecting ourselves, I am patrolling with my AR-15, along with Hank, Dale and Boomhower, we have shut off the cul-de-sac with our SUVs, and have Billy-Ray-Joe-Bob on the roof with a sniper rifle, just want to let you LE officers know we are trying to help out.

911: Please hold sir (sounds of SWAT team being dispatched)

You get the Idea !
I cannot believe that anyone on this forum who professes to be a responsible firearm owner would even think that you can just form a "Neighborhood Posse" and expect LE to think "Hey thats great, they are defending themselves".

It may fly where you live, but would likely wind up in a lot of arrests here.

Blackwater OPS
March 8, 2006, 07:39 PM
<<<leo

OuTcAsT
March 8, 2006, 07:49 PM
OK Blackwater, so are you telling me (your feelings aside) that your Chief/Commissioner/whatever... is going to endorse armed citizens "patrolling" or "Locking Down" a neighborhood.

A CCW holder would be brandishing Here (with a Handgun) But walking down the street with a locked and loaded AR would assure you a ride in the BACK of a black and white.

SBrocker8
March 8, 2006, 08:04 PM
Open carry is perfectly legal where I am. Then again, riots are pretty much never going to happen here unless some pretty messed up things happen...

Open carry is also perfectly legal in many other places, BTW.

OuTcAsT
March 8, 2006, 09:17 PM
You are correct,open carry is legal in many states, it is legal here for a CCW holder HOWEVER.... This only applies to HANDGUNS, not Rifles or Shotguns.

This would fall under the "intent to go armed" catagory.

In other words, walking around, or taking up a position of defense OUTSIDE your home is considered "looking for a fight".

Unless I am mistaken, this kind of action would also put you in the "premeditation" catagory. if you shoot someone (or several someones) after walking around armed for a spell could be spinned by a first year asst. DA as a murder looking for a victim.

I am not saying I disagree with wanting to protect what is mine, and using lethal force if necessary. Merely pointing out that the "Neighborhood Watch' with weapons is likely Illegal. If it were not then I would guess that more gang and drug infested urban neighborhoods would be doing it. Heck, if it were legal we could save our cities Billions of tax dollars because law enforcement would be moot.

Further, I will challenge any of you who live in urban, or suburban areas to load your favorite rifle, chuck it on your shoulder, and do a patrol thru your neighborhood, (be sure you call and tell your local PD you are doing it to help them out) and post your results.

Doug.38PR
March 8, 2006, 09:53 PM
Outcast,
The area is having a major riot. The police are tied up with that. Which is why the neighborhood men are setting up a defense because the police can't come. (See original post)
If they can send the swat team then they can send it to protect the neighborhood from rioters.

OuTcAsT
March 8, 2006, 10:10 PM
Doug,

(respectfully) I did read the original post, and understand the tactical situation, Major riot, LEOs otherwise occupied, etc.

My point is this, IF this plays out as written, then your only LEGAL option is to hunker down in YOUR home and protect yourself and family.

You have NO legal right to organize a "Posse" and try and protect your neighborhood. nor do you have a legal right to camp out on the roof and start shooting into a mob just because they passed the line in the sand in your yard (some states may vary)

Yes I have read the constitution, yes I know what the 2nd ammendment says, that does not mean that in the end you will prevail in court.

and please do not give me the standard "Judged by 12/Carried by 6 answer.

Doug.38PR
March 8, 2006, 11:01 PM
Well, I think a riot is an unusual circumstance that leaves people open to gather together in defense of their homes as a whole. I don't think a court would convict us or (minus self righteous DAs etc. that just don't like people having guns) even bring us to trail.

Those Korean guys during the RK riots in LA were within their rights to do what they did.

I think everyone would understand that there is no time to go through formal paperwork, deputizing oaths etc. involved in making a posse and all and drawing boundarylines at property and house.

I'm not even sure what I am talking about is a posse (law enforcement appointed officers out to make arrest and chase criminals). It's just some men around the neighborhood on the lookout for multiple intruders or a mob.

It's all about common sense. If your neighborhood is attacked and your neighbors should respond.

Bottling up yourself in your house is not the best tactical solution in my opinion. They can burn the house down around you or overwhelm you as a mob if you are just an individual in a house.

At least one LEO Blackwater OPS seems to agree by and large with me as do many other posters.

If nothing else, I don't think police would have much to say about the matter since they don't have the means to break us up...and if they did, like I said we wouldn't need to be doing what we were doing.


If you REEEALLY want to get technical, since most of your problem is with people walking around openly with guns, I suppose you could keep rifles and shotguns inside the vehicles at the barricade until needed by men stationed at the barricade and just walk up and down the street checking each other's houses with concealed handguns. Technically that is within the law in normal everyday circumstances in most states (minus barricades). Men stationed on the roof with rifles can't be seen by anyone, and are on their property with the guns hidden on the roof.



In addition, I think, as far as family safety goes, it would be prudent to put all familys up in one house at the center of the street or neighborhood farthest away from where a confrontation with rioters might take place.

Capt Charlie
March 8, 2006, 11:06 PM
You have NO legal right to organize a "Posse" and try and protect your neighborhood. nor do you have a legal right to camp out on the roof and start shooting into a mob just because they passed the line in the sand in your yard (some states may vary)
As a police officer, outcast, I have to agree with you, but Doug has a point too. No "judged by 12" here, but I will give you a "desperate times call for desperate measures".

In the mid-60's here, we had a.... well, I wouldn't call it an all-out riot; let's call it a "march of very angry, determined people". They proved that they had destruction on their minds. They marched through town until they got to an area we call the South End. Entry to this area is restricted to a tactically important underpass. Now in the 60's, this area was strongly segregated as a whites only area. In fact, it was a redneck area with a whole lot of deer hunters :D .

The "marchers" tried to enter the South End through the underpass, only to be met by a solid line of people slamming bolts on deer rifles and slug guns. There were also rifles on numerous rooftops.

Approximately 25 people stopped over several hundred in their tracks.

There were no shots fired, no one was injured, and no arrests were made (among the South Enders).

A show of force can be a powerful weapon.

Blackwater OPS
March 9, 2006, 02:13 AM
The area is having a major riot. The police are tied up with that.
Exactly. The swat team is busy, believe me.

You have NO legal right to organize a "Posse" and try and protect your neighborhood. nor do you have a legal right to camp out on the roof and start shooting into a mob just because they passed the line in the sand in your yard (some states may vary)
Well, I only know the law in a few states but- CA Penal Code
197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.

I would hope few warning shots would be enough to make a group of rioters consider taking a different route, or even go home. If not, I will use whatever force is required to defend my life and that of anyone in my home.

Look at pictures and video from the RK riots here in 92' you will see MANY people standing on roofs with guns, hmm no swat teams though, guess they had other concerns. In the aftermath of the riot shootings will be investigated and you may have to defend your actions in court, but the law is clear.

threegun
March 9, 2006, 06:44 AM
I know of no law against organizing law abiding civilians to protect there homes. The better organized and coordinated they are the safer they will be. If you can do it.........do it.

The British Soldier
March 9, 2006, 09:15 AM
I would 'go silent' and make my house look like it was empty, but defend the stronghold upstairs. If the rioters do make entry to loot, etc; I would give them the ground floor as a 'freebie' (insurance can replace anything).

The stairs would be the choke point and that's where I would defend. Many stairs have a 90 degree turn in them, so you would be able to be in cover until they are part way up and then challenge and engage immediately.

Even with a pistol I think you would be in a strong position to stop a charge of several rioters; yet once they see the first few people go down I'm sure that their zeal would erode and they would want to bail out. If not, keep on shooting them.

As several posts indicated, you are defending not only yourself but your home and family; no jury would send you down for defending yourself, let alone your family.

I wouldn't even imagine that one would need a large volume of ammunition, as long as you are cool and calm and make each double tap count.

I'm somewhat relieved that it shouldn't happen to any of us too often, if ever; but a good mental exercise in defending one's 'castle'. Unfortunately here in England my response to an intruder into my home would be courtesy of a 4-cell maglite and a lot of aggression behind it!

Mikeyboy
March 9, 2006, 04:35 PM
+1 Brit...I still think the best house to buy is a 2 story with the bedrooms upstairs. Easy to defend.

threegun
March 9, 2006, 04:37 PM
until they set the first floor on fire.

Dan M.
March 9, 2006, 04:46 PM
Or shoot through the ceiling.

Doug.38PR
March 10, 2006, 10:36 PM
Anyone see the movie Gangs of New York? Not something I highly recommend, but remember the scene when the riots were breaking out. Had a Yankee businessman sitting down with his family and the mob broke into the front door. He grabbed two pistols and barely got off around three or four rounds as they were rushing in the door before they overwhelmed him. Granted it's a movie, but it is an illustration of why lone defense in a house is not the best tactic.
That's my opinion though....on the other hand, I imagine those who advocate this position won't be sitting down for supper when the mob breaks in, you will have your rifles and scatterguns aimed out the windows before they get to you house.
On the other hand, if you fortify yourself and your family in a single house alone, they are more exposed to bullets flying. In my view, it would be better to set up defenses down the street with the strength of neighbors behind you and additional guns keeping familys away from the confrontation.

threegun
March 11, 2006, 05:59 AM
Doug, I would prefer to remain mobile. Fixed positions offer the safety of superior cover however the lack of mobility and visuals make you a sitting duck once the badguys know your position. You are correct, it would be better to have the neighbors help.

Bender711
March 12, 2006, 05:31 PM
Just thought of something. If the roit is comming towards you house, just get some fake blood and pour it around your door (and some drag marks), that ought to scare a few people away, o yea and shoot your door a couple of times.

Doug.38PR
March 15, 2006, 06:34 PM
Another thought occured to me the other day: I emphasized keeping in contact with the police dispatcher on a regular basis throughout your setup checking in making sure they know you are fortified and where you are. Well it might not be a bad idea also to dress a certain way to make you and your neighbors identifiable to police and their helicopters patroling the area. Something like wearing Orange hunting jackets or something that makes you look distinct from rioters.

OuTcAsT
March 15, 2006, 07:32 PM
You Know...You are exactly right, definately would not want anyone to confuse your armed "citizens" with the rabble. FUBU T-shirts would definately be a NO-NO.

Since you are organizing a militia, why not get some uniforms that look like the LEOs or Military?

Be sure to pin your CCW Badge on as well :D

Edward429451
March 15, 2006, 07:41 PM
Interesting thread. I like the run silent run deep suggestion. Nobody home.

30 minutes you say? Got any idea how many loopholes can be cut with a cordless sawzall in 30 minutes? ;>)

If you don't already know your neighbors...go say hey. Even a passing relationship before shtf is good. You can't wait until a mob is 4 blocks away to go knock on their door (unless they KNOW YOU).

atlctyslkr
March 15, 2006, 08:11 PM
Aren't rioters a form of an improptu milita? They just don't have cool hunting vests and caps like Doug's team :cool:

threegun
March 15, 2006, 08:34 PM
We have a potential riot brewing here in Florida again. Seems that some white juvenile boot camp employees ruffed up a black inmate and unfortunately he died. Originally his death was ruled a result of sickle cell disease. Now after a second autopsy, sickle cell was ruled out as the cause of death. The NAACP,Rainbow Push, and other groups are demanding that the officers be put up on murder charges. Problem is the exact cause of death isn't known and the da has said that manslaughter is the best that they could go after IF they decide to charge anyone. The blacks have vowed to protest if they aren't charged with the boys murder. From past expierience there will be rioting if the guys aren't charge and convicted.

My job borders potential riot zones so I have desided that from now until things are back to normal, to take one of my AR-15's to work with me along with several mags. Plus I might be on call at work if a riot does break out because we are licensed FFL dealers and carry hundreds of guns that get targeted by rioters. My boss will hire an off duty LEO if availible and myself and the other guys will keep them company.

OuTcAsT
March 15, 2006, 09:01 PM
You Might consider sending some PM's to certain folks on this thread, they seem very willing to organize a good ole' shoot-em-up posse to protect your "property"

riverrat66
March 15, 2006, 09:23 PM
Seems that some white juvenile boot camp employees ruffed up a black inmate and unfortunately he died.
It's a little off topic but I saw that on the news and from what I saw those thugs, err, I mean camp employees should go to jail! That kid was like only 12 years old or something like that and it took all those big huge guards to subdue him. Yep, those guards are real bad as*es when it comes to kids aren't they? Send them to prison and we'll see how tough they really are.

Sulaco2
March 15, 2006, 09:51 PM
Once was enough Outcast!!!:eek:

threegun
March 17, 2006, 11:30 AM
Lock em up & throw away the key!


Agreed. Unfortunatly they will either skate or only get manslaughter. If it can be proved that it was the roughing up that killed him.