PDA

View Full Version : "Sightless in Philly" course announcement


Az Qkr
February 18, 2006, 09:55 PM
Quick Kill, Quick Fire and FAS training dates secured in Easton, Pennsylvania

When: Weekend of April 29 and 30th

Where: http://www.efga.net/index.asp

This two-day program will cover Quick Kill concepts by Robin Brown; Quick Fire concepts covered by Robin and 7677; FAS concepts covered by Matt Temkin; the Sight Continuum Theories covered by 7677 and provides a thorough foundation in all the pointshooting platforms mentioned as well as when each should and can be used in concert with each other.

Each day consists of an 8-hour block of hands-on instruction. Tuition is $400.00 for the two day block. A 150.00 deposits to secure a slot for this training are required.

If you live in the Philadelphia area, here is a chance to learn how to shoot quickly and accurately without utilizing your sights at combat distances out to 30 feet or more.

For reviews of this course held in Tucson, go here:

http://polite-society.org/showthread.php?t=3112

To pre-register, or if you have questions please contact Robin Brown at arizonaqkr@yahoo.com for details relative deposits to secure your slot.

Robin Brown

Mikeyboy
February 22, 2006, 12:50 PM
AZ...just some local help here...Easton PA is in the Allentown/Bethleham area. It's about an hour north from Philadelphia and is also about an hour's drive (barring traffic) across I-78 from the NYC/Newark NJ area and an hour south from the Pocono Mountains. Been there once, great place.

Az Qkr
February 22, 2006, 01:13 PM
Mikeboy,
You beat me to it, was updating the information on other sites when this came in from you. Thanks for the heads up to the members here as well.

Here is the information for those interested. I'll be flying into Philly and driving North to Easton myself.
____________________________________________________________


Easton, Pa. is about 60 miles north of Philadelphia, and the same distance West of Newark, NJ.

Hotels in the immediate area are:

Hotel Hampton
Hotel Easton
Two Best Westerns
Hotel Lafayette

Angelos Restaurant is across the street from the Hotel Lafayette

Robin Brown

Hard Ball
February 22, 2006, 03:14 PM
Hitting without using your sights is a major survival skill. If you don't know how to do it better start learning how now.

Skyguy
February 22, 2006, 07:26 PM
Hitting without using your sights is a major survival skill. If you don't know how to do it better start learning how now.

The good thing is that nearly anyone can learn to hit a close-up target without using sights...in less than 5 minutes. It's very easy.

But, (instinctual) sightless-shooting requires continuous practice to maintain a modicum of proficiency. And obviously, accuracy is significantly affected as distance increases beyond a car length.
.

matthew temkin
February 22, 2006, 10:18 PM
I must disagre with Skyguy.
Yes, it is true that point shooting can be learned in a very short time, but once learned it is yours regardless of how much..or how little...you practice.
Which is one of the reasons Applegate one joked that it is impossible to make a living teaching his system.
As to point shooting at longer distances...the FAS and QK do a pretty good job out to about 50 feet or so, which should take care of most situations.

Skyguy
February 22, 2006, 11:17 PM
Yes, it is true that point shooting can be learned in a very short time, but once learned it is yours regardless of how much..or how little...you practice.

I agree; once learned always owned...just like any other shooting method. But, proficiency can 'not' be maintained without practice. If it could, the newbie could shoot as well as the practiced technician.
Everyone must practice to maintain their skills.

As to point shooting at longer distances...the FAS and QK do a pretty good job out to about 50 feet or so, which should take care of most situations.

For Joe average, point shooting accuracy deteriorates significantly out past a car length (15-18ft). Especially if they don't practice.
In a dynamic situation, out past 20 ft or against a moving target, common sense and experience tell me to use a sighting device. I prefer Lasergrips.
.

Skyguy
February 22, 2006, 11:20 PM
We had a 73 yr old lady in our area shoot a man that invaded her home through the back door. She told him to leave and he kicked her door in. She (point) shot him 3 times with a .38.
Justified shooting and the perp lived. He's awaiting trial.

Close up point shooting is very effective for most everyone....even old, immobile guys with bad eyesight. The reason? It's so damn close you can hardly ever miss.

But, as the distance increases so do the misses. Out past 20 ft or so, bad eyes and old guys need a better plan if they intend to shoot the threat.

steve2267
March 9, 2006, 04:44 AM
Quick Kill leverages peripheral vision with a human's ability to naturally point a finger (usually the index finger) at an object. Do you lose peripheral vision if you don't use it? (Stupid question, of course not.) Do you lose the ability to point at objects if you do not continually point at things every day, every hour? I don't know about you... but I don't.

I am only able to shoot like this after Brownie gave me QK:

steve2267 shoot's Ankeny's 2-2-2 drill (http://www.threatfocused.com/videos/Steve2267ShootsAnkenys_2-2-2drill_in_214sec.avi)

I talk about this video clip and exercise here: A Weekend at Brownie's (http://www.threatfocused.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121). But I want to point out that my transition from target 2 to target 3 is 0.21 seconds -- faster than my split on target 3! There is no way in hell I could transition from target 2 to target 3 in 0.21 seconds using a laser.

It gets better. It works with a rifle too... When I recently flew down for a long weekend at Brownie's, not only did I shoot Ankeny's 2-2-2 drill along with being brought up to speed on the QK curriculum that he has worked out with 7677 and Sweatnbullets, but Brownie also gave me Rifle Quick Kill.

Using his trusty, front sightless Daisy Red Ryder BB gun, Brownie had me hitting small pebbles out to 6-9 feet with ease. I'd just pick out a pebble, oh, maybe up to 3/8" diameter, pull the trigger... and it would squirt off in some direction as the BB hit it. Some of the pebbles were just glints of light (we were doing this one evening in the light of his back porch), and they just disappeared.

Rabbits... oh yeah... the rabbits... I almost forgot the rabbits. After a few minutes of shooting pebbles... I noticed the rabbits feeding under the bushes about 70-90ft away. Way too far for a Daisy Red Ryder let alone one without it's front sight... as the BB's would bend left and right at that distance, but I would pick a rabbit, snap the gun up and let fly... with NO sights... and get those rabbits a jumping!

But that's not the best part. After shooting the pebbles for 5 minutes or so, he fetched a coffee can, and had me shooting the coffee can as he tossed it 6-10 ft in the air. No more than 5 minutes or so after pinging that can then the best part came. The best part is the new family heirloom Brownie gave me... for within 15 minutes from the start of all this, Brownie had me hitting a quarter out of the air... a quarter that I'm saving for my children, along with the story about how Daddy learned to shoot coins in the air:

http://www.threatfocused.com/images/RifleQK/Rifle_QK_quarter_small.jpg

So, you can shove your laser where the sun don't shine Skyguy. I've got Quick Kill, and I won't trade it for anything. I know what I can do with Quick Kill... and I know what you can do with your lasers.

Anybody want some of this? Then get your behind to Sightless in Philly this April.

Skyguy
March 9, 2006, 12:31 PM
There is no way in hell I could transition from target 2 to target 3 in 0.21 seconds using a laser.


Steve, I never train anyone to use a laser at such close distances. Nor does Cirillo, Ayoob, Hackathorn, Dalton, et al.
Such closeness is point shooting territory only. Even novice shooters hardly ever miss at such closeness. It's instinctual; just point and shoot!
Lasergrips are not about quick-draw tricks and extremely close range paper targets. They are about combat; low light/no light, medium distances, awkward or compromised positions, shooting from cover, weak hand, etc.

A couple of tips I can pass along to you if you are practicing for that 'moment of truth'. First, it will most likely be a surprise encounter! You will have no time to prepare for a quick draw.
Second.....Learn to step back and crouch if you have no chance to gain cover.

And remember that just because you shoot someone quicker, there is no guarantee that he will not return fire into your COM. It's very close range, ya know.

Even though it took you 11 seconds to prepare yourself for the buzzer....you still deserve congrats on the 2.14 second trick shoot.

Congrats!
.

Trip20
March 9, 2006, 01:29 PM
Why does it seem virtually impossible to hit a quarter out of mid-air (with anything other than luck), with a BB gun - the projectile of which has a most unpredictable trajectory. Yet, I see what appear to be 3 (?) hits on that quarter.

Not implying you're being less than truthful... but the task seems daunting to me.

On the flip side of that coin (:p ), I bet I could fire six shots at that distance with out missing the 3 targets... though, I doubt that fast. Nice job.

Az Qkr
March 9, 2006, 01:39 PM
Trip,
It seems virutally impossible because it is hard to do for most people.

One Lucky McDaniel got people to do that regularly with Quick Kill from the late 50's to well into the mid 80's.

Quick Kill [ what Lucky called Instinct shooting ], was well documented as being able to do just what Steve did on that quarter, in very short order.

The book by Mike Jennings called Instinct shooting from 1959 documents well the skill Lucky imparted to thousands of people over the years.

It's only hard until you are shown how to do it, then it is fairly easy. Gotta have the right skills though, and be shown by someone who can give you those skills.

Daunting, I like that word. It describes the difficulty very well. Course it is easy with the right training and transfers well to rifle as the military discovered a long, long time ago.

Unpredictable tragectories? Wouldn't that be what birds do when they flush as well?

Trip20
March 9, 2006, 02:12 PM
Az Qkr - I'm definitely "most people".

Humans are capable of some pretty remarkable task, I've no doubt steve is capable. I suppose I find it more amazing that the gun/projectile used in steve's case is capable of the task, more than I'm amazed by the skill of steve (or other person trained in this instinct shooting).

That's why I spoke of the unpredictable trajectory of the projectile (bb) - as anyone who's shot a bb gun can tell you it does not always fly straight and true. I must admit I'm assuming we're talking an "off-the-shelf" Daisy BB gun - not a match grade competition doo-hiky.

Hopefully this addresses your comparison of a flushed bird, to my point of the bb having a unpredictable trajectory. One is the projectile, the other is the target - apples to oranges. The quarter (target) has a fairly predictable trajectory.

Az Qkr
March 9, 2006, 04:06 PM
Trip,

Thanks for the clarification on the unpredictability of the bb.

The bbguns are red ryders bought at Walmart with the front sight pulled off. The bb's fly true for a good 10-12 feet, and up to 15-16 feet, then it is really iffy.

The ariels are only thrown up into the air about 8-10 feet in front of the student, so distance of the flight of the bb is not an issue.

When I shoot the rabbits out back here at my place, they can be from 11-12 yds to 30 yds out and sometimes they fly straight and sometimes left or right, The power of the red ryders is not such that they are injured but they jump like crazy and stay away from the plants out back for awhile. The rabbits are a big enough target so that if the bb is off in trajectory a little, it still nails em.

On the longer distances, it's just a exercise to see if I can get them, and the drop of the bb [ which is considerable ] has to be taken into consideration. After literally thousands of shots, I'm pretty good at knowing the drop at certain distances.

The real trick is to nail them after they are on the run with the first hit with a second bb. Moving targets are a great training aid and the rabbits give me plenty of that practice.

Trip20
March 9, 2006, 04:16 PM
Not only do I need a bb gun, but I need to learn more about this type of shooting.

I've got plenty of quarters - and they'll be safe for awhile at least. ;)

I can't shoot at a rabbit with out thinking of the meal afterward... so I'll continue to use my .22lr. I still have the stock Ruger barrel (I have an aftermarket .920 diameter barrel on at the moment), maybe I'll peel off the Williams firesights from the old stock barrel and see if I can get good at this.

Skyguy
March 10, 2006, 11:46 PM
Not only do I need a bb gun, but I need to learn more about this type of shooting.

Trip, most anyone can do the sightless bb gun trick. It's easy, but has little value other than the 'wow' factor.
If you can hunt and lead the moving target, that's all you need to know.


http://photos.imageevent.com/leemutlee/colt/small/Dsc03006.jpg

Az Qkr
March 11, 2006, 12:00 AM
That coin thrown in the air skyguy?

I really doubt it, you will never convince anyone here that you can track a coin in the air with the laser.

Nice try, but it doesn't fly.

"If you can hunt and lead the moving target, that's all you need to know."

Leading the target skyguy? There is NOOOO leading in Quick Kill with either the rifle, shotgun or pistol. Leading indeed. I suppose you'll come back that you lead with the laser as well then?

Your statements show your lack of any serious knowledge on the subject of shooting moving targets, let alone stationary ones.

Skyguy
March 11, 2006, 12:17 AM
That coin thrown in the air skyguy?

I really doubt it, you will never convince anyone here that you can track a coin in the air with the laser.

Yes, thrown in the air.
I never said or even hinted that I used a laser to hit the quarter.

That bb gun trick was taught to us in the Army AB way back in '65.
It was standard fare then and a confidence builder because they knew we where soon to engage a formidable enemy in Vietnam.
Besides, in the combat world those tricks mean absolutely nothing because the 'targets' shoot back.

I think you need me as your combat consultant. :)

Skyguy
March 11, 2006, 12:20 AM
Leading the target skyguy? There is NOOOO leading in Quick Kill with either the rifle, shotgun or pistol. Leading indeed. I suppose you'll come back that you lead with the laser as well then?

I was talking about shooting a quarter in the air, not your QK business.

Geeeeezz!!
.

Az Qkr
March 11, 2006, 12:24 AM
I never said or even hinted that I used a laser to hit the quarter.

Sure you did, you put up that funky lasergrip advertisement right beneath the coin.

And that bbgun "trick" was QK skyguy, and if you really knew what you were talking about where QK was concerned and had been trained in that technique as you claim, you would KNOW there is no leading moving targets with what you claim to have learned in the Army.

"It was standard fare then and a confidence builder because they knew we where soon to engage a formidable enemy in Vietnam.
Besides, in the combat world those tricks mean absolutely nothing because the 'targets' shoot back."

You just contradict yourself here. On the one hand you state you were taught this in the army as you were going to engage a formidable enemy, and then directly contradict that statement with that it meant nothing because the enemy would be shooting back.

You've been "owned" a few times in the last two posts. Whose the combat consultant skyguy? Doesn't appear to be you, thats for sure. You can't even keep your stories straight.

The Army taught ONE technique with bbguns, and that was QK, again, you have been had.

Skyguy
March 11, 2006, 12:36 AM
The Army taught ONE technique with bbguns, and that was QK, again, you have been had.

Call it QK if you like, we called it 'shooting a quarter in the air with a bb gun'. LOL

It was supposed to build confidence in our abilities, but once we were there we made lotsa jokes about the 'bb gun trick'.

It is a trick and it is a joke....and we both know it.

...and btw, if you've ever been bird hunting, rabbit hunting or trap shooting....you know what leading the target means. lol

Az Qkr
March 11, 2006, 12:44 AM
You are a poser. And you have been had.

You were not shown how to hit anything out of the air with a bbgun in the Army. They taught ONE skill with the bbguns, and it WAS QK. You would have known that as thats what they were calling it [ in fact the Army names the rifle technique mcDaniel gave them QK ].

It was a skill imparted to soldiers for a very specific reason. It was effective at hitting quickly, and hitting moving targets. You know nothing, and that is so apparent to anyone who even reads your posts let alone really was trained in the skills while in the service back then.

You were not shown leading thrown targets, and you were not shown how to hit quarters in the military. I have the actual program from the army, and the skills were NEVER given through shooting quarters.

The poser has been exposed, and you are the poser. It was only a matter of time before you dug yourself a hole, people like you always do eventually when left to their own demise.

Go pose elsewhere, you are a non issue where information about QK is concerned.

Skyguy
March 11, 2006, 12:59 AM
You were not shown how to hit anything out of the air with a bbgun in the Army. They taught ONE skill with the bbguns, and it WAS QK.

Everything I posted is true. Never was the bb gun trick called Quick Kill or QK. Never.

It was a skill imparted to soldiers for a very specific reason. It was effective at hitting quickly, and hitting moving targets.


That is utter rubbish. If you knew anything about combat you would surely know that the bb gun trick means absolutely nothing towards survival.

...and people actually pay you? :D

Az Qkr
March 11, 2006, 01:25 AM
Everything I posted is true. Never was the bb gun trick called Quick Kill or QK. Never.

Wrong again. The bbgun was used specifically and exclusively in the QK program by the US Army. You have been had again and again on this subject.

That is utter rubbish. If you knew anything about combat you would surely know that the bb gun trick means absolutely nothing towards survival.

If you really knew ANYTHING about the bbgun being used and why it was used, you would not be posting these types of responses. You are a poser of the highest order. Now everyone knows it.

The Army adopted the skills McDaniel imparted to them for a reason, and you can rest assured the Army did not spend money or time on "tricks" that were not going to give the soldier skills to survive.

Had again, hell skyguy, you don't have a clue about what you are talking about or the history behind the QK program, and the more you post the poser nonsense, the more evident it is to everyone watching that that is exactly what you are, a POSER of the highest order who doesn't know diddly about QK or how it is even performed.

The "leading targets" comment was priceless at exposing your lack of knowledge or training you say you have on the subject. Then the statement the Army used quarters to train the troops really is the icing on the cake of your posership.

Skyguy
March 11, 2006, 02:17 AM
The bbgun was used specifically and exclusively in the QK program by the US Army. You have been had again and again on this subject.


Whatever.

I was in the Army 'AIRBORNE'...the 173rd, aka The Herd...The Sky Soldiers. That's a few steps up from regular Army training.
We were trained by experienced soldiers who knew what real fighting was all about. After over a year and a half in nam in operation Junction City and operation Macarthur and war zones C and D, I know what it's about. And it ain't fast draw against paper and a timer or shooting a bb gun.

Your expertise is in shooting tricks and reading books and old army manuals.
Yet, you charge to train people to fight. Wassup wit dat? :)

Anyway Brownie, best of luck with your 'Sightless in Philly' course.
....and hey, pick up a Lasergrip. Get one and you'll never look back. :D
.

Az Qkr
March 11, 2006, 10:54 AM
We were trained by experienced soldiers who knew what real fighting was all about.

No more so than any jarhead was then or now. Your statement doesn't change the fact you have shown a total lack of knowledge in this subject.

Your expertise is in shooting tricks and reading books and old army manuals.

You know nothing of my expertise. That must be your arse talking again, cause you mouth knows better.

Teaching skills that can be used to stay alive is not teaching someone to fight [ that would be tactics ]. Again you show your lack in comprehending just what it is we do train people in.

If you were not just posturing and posing here, and were who you want people to believe you are, you'd know the difference. Had again skyguy.

OBIWAN
March 12, 2006, 01:55 PM
Anybody else notice a pattern to these PS threads

Must be the company they keep

QKR.....spelling it arse doesn't make it civil:rolleyes:

Az Qkr
March 12, 2006, 02:13 PM
Obiwan,

Skyguy chose to come into this announcement and stick his nose into it with nothing but negativity and untruths in an attempt to not only discredit myself but the QK system.

He has continually attempted to interject his BS [ is that " BS" allowed and civil enough for you?:rolleyes: ]?

His interjections here and elsewhere are rife with misinformation and untruths about his background and training. In other other words, he doesn't know sh%t from shinola about the subject [ is that also uncivil enough for you?:rolleyes: ].

He has been exposed here as a poser, and the posing has been nothing but an attempt to bang on me and the QK system while working his little CT laser adds into the mix at every opportunity.

The pattern you mention stems from skyguy and his ilk sticking their face into a thread where it doesn't belong and posting about things they know nothing about. Ya, I notice a pattern as well. The BS didn't come from this side, it was an announcement of a training venue. The poser started the pattern here. So who's the arsehole here? Who started with the BS? [ Hint: it was not in the original thread I started ]. We on the same page now? Anything else you'd like to add?

I don't see the need to be civil when the posers want to interject their BS and highjack the thread.

Any other comments about civility, direct them to the poser skyguy. In the meantime, expect this jarhead to pull out the Marine bat whenever someone wants to start in with their BS. Skyguy has an alligator mouth and a hummingbird arse [ oops, there is that word again :rolleyes: ]

The courses are on schedule. Philly is coming up, LE's from Ca. are coming into the area in two weeks, a gig with the prosecutors office in NM is next, more military training is scheduled this fall, and there's a trip to Europe coming up before the end of the summer to train LE there. Course are being scheduled in Colo and Las Vegas as well.

OBIWAN
March 13, 2006, 04:33 PM
dude.....

I wasn't really talking to you...other than a little nudge regarding civility

You are obviously part of the problem rather than the solution and I was wasting my time ...since I don't really care if you get banned.

Mostly I am just tired of these threads going so predictably downhill

Unfortunately I got sucked in by the title...not realizing it was more PS-BS

Az Qkr
March 13, 2006, 05:33 PM
Exactly my thoughts Obi-

I made an announcement of a scheduled event. Unless questions needed answering regarding specifics to that announcement, I don't see the need for anyone like the poser in question to stick their uneducated nose into the thread unless they are looking for a fight.

If that is what they want, I can accomodate quite nicely. If you tire of these threads going downhill, why don't you have a conversation with the institgator/poser skyguy here.

The thread was not part of any problem, it was an announcement. Your comment about more PS-BS is exactly the problem you yourself think is created by the "other" side.

Get a clue

Capt Charlie
March 13, 2006, 07:11 PM
Ya know guys, when I read your training tips, I'm impressed... truly. Individually, you come across as professionals; people that we can all learn from.

Collectively, however, you degrade yourselves down to petty bickering, that comes across to others as anything but professional. Both of you are truly an asset to this forum... until you butt heads.

This is the second thread I've closed because a worthwhile thread quickly lost its worth. Hopefully, there won't be a third, and there definitely won't be a fourth.

I strongly suggest you put your differences aside, or take them to PM or e-mail, so that readers can continue to view you as true professionals.