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TBT
February 15, 2006, 06:47 PM
I have a Do-All Steel Resetting Target (for 9mm to 30.06) that I have had for a while. I picked it up a few years ago because I was tired of punching paper. After assembling the target I noticed that the directions warn that you cannot shoot closer than 30 yards because of ricochets. I figured to hell with that and put the target away. I’m not a bull’s-eye guy that wants to stand so far back that I can barely see the target.

I’ve been thinking again on this though. Do you really have to be that far back or is it more of a warning like the ones that come in your gun manual that say that you should never carry the gun loaded?

Personally, I can’t see how a bullet can hit that target and come back at you. The way that the thing swings back you would think that the bullet would have to travel down into the dirt or back and down into the dirt. I would be shooting 9mm and 45ACP 230 ball at it.

Is this just a protection the company is using or is this a serious warning to abide by? If you can get closer than 30 yards to the thing how close is safe?

Thanks for any help. Hopefuly I'm not being an idiot even thinking about moving closer than 30 yards ...

OneInTheChamber
February 15, 2006, 07:10 PM
I have the .22 spinner one by Do-all, and I have shot at it from around 10-15 yards with 1000's of rounds with no problems.

gtomax
February 15, 2006, 07:12 PM
Odds: low.
Possible: very.

Anything hit dead on will come straight back. I once hit a baseball straight back at a pitching machine at 80mph. Knocked it right over. I'd rather not be that pitching machine, and certainly not if what's coming back is a bullet or a piece of one!

parlorshark
February 15, 2006, 07:21 PM
I've got 3 of the spinner ones for 22 rimfire and never had a ricochet back at me from any distance however I have had some side ricochets due to hitting the frame instead of the spinner . Get a can of cheap orange paint to paint the spinners with , its cheaper than the stickers and lasts longer too . Paint both sides of the spinners so when you shoot the paint off one side you can repaint it and turn the target around and shoot the other side while the first side dryes .

jcims
February 15, 2006, 07:24 PM
I once hit a baseball straight back at a pitching machine at 80mph.
This reminds me of something that happened to me when i was ~14. We were smacking golfballs with an aluminum bat, when i had the bright idea of pitching them. One or two popped straight up, and in a lob that is still slow motion to this day, the next toss connected hard, and the golf ball rifled right back at me, missing my right eye by about 3 inches (i could feel it go past the side of my face). I ducked, of course, but the dude that hit the ball, in between laughing so hard he almost puked, said that the ball was already about 50 yards out and starting an upwards climb by the time i moved a muscle.

Last time i did that!

TBT
February 15, 2006, 07:25 PM
Would there be a difference in probability of 22's coming back at you and a 45/9 coming back at you? Is one more like to do that than the other?

TBT
February 15, 2006, 11:33 PM
Anything hit dead on will come straight back.

Even when the substrate it hits moves rearward easily at an angle? I just don't get the physics of that ...

DBOUNCE1
February 16, 2006, 12:42 PM
i concur

TBT
February 16, 2006, 01:34 PM
Anyone else have any exp. with these targets that might be able to lend an opinion?

Trip20
February 16, 2006, 01:55 PM
I have the do-all's for rimfire. Never had a round come back at me. I remember reading (I believe here on TFL, YMMV) that 22lr may have a higher probability of bouncing back. No idea if that's true.

At any rate, I have a friend with do-all's for pistol calibers up to .44mag. We've never had one of those come back either. We shoot from 7, 15, or 25 yds on the pistol do-alls.

As someone above said:

Odds: low
Possible: very

That's probably a fair assessment.

Wear eye protection and I wouldn't worry.

TBT
February 16, 2006, 08:16 PM
Are bullets that come back at you (even if it is rare) generally lethal? I mean, is there still enough energy for the bullet to penatrate or are you basically looking at getting socked a good one and little else?

Ken O
February 16, 2006, 08:45 PM
I shoot steel targets a lot in competition, IDPA, ISPC, Steel Challenge. These are shot at all distances from very far to maybe 20 feet. The ricoshes that you occasionaly get are very small fragments, it seems like the .22s are the worse, I did have some that drew a little blood on the face. The most important thing is to wear eye protection. I shoot mostly the .45acp LSWC, and dont remember getting anything comming back on it.

TBT
February 16, 2006, 09:20 PM
I would be shooting WWB FMJ in 9mm and 45. Would that be worse than LSWC?

Archie
February 16, 2006, 09:36 PM
Take a look at my entry (it's the very last on page three, currently) in the "I Got Shot at the Range" thread. It's about metal targets and I'm too lazy to do it all again.

The thirty yard rule is probably more for other shooter's benefit and comfort.

Handgun bullets general break up - splatter - on steel targets. This type being a mover might allow bullets to hold together more than a stationary target.

Wear protective equipment - as you should anyway - and be careful of the sides of the target for secondary splatters.

Mike T
February 17, 2006, 12:05 AM
IDPA's standard is that you need a 10 yd minimum for steel. This should vary depending on the quality of the steel and if it has many pock marks. If you can vary the angle of the steel so that it is slightly downward facing that should help.

TBT
February 17, 2006, 12:58 PM
I'm probably going to give this a shot this weekend. I'll not go closer than 15 yards I imagine. Hopefully I don't get shot. :)

Thanks to those for the offered advice.

ChickenHawk
February 19, 2006, 10:53 AM
Please report back and let us know how it goes. I'd like to get a reactive target, but (as you said) would like it to be a 10-20 yards rather than 30.

Cheers,
ChickenHawk

smince
February 19, 2006, 11:35 AM
Take a look at my entry (it's the very last on page three, currently) in the "I Got Shot at the Range" thread.

I suggest you search for this thread, also.

armedandsafe
February 19, 2006, 02:03 PM
I was shooting a "dinger" (large steel plate hanging on a chain) at about 100 yards once. Shooting prone, I had a FMJ 30-06 drop just in front of my face with enough force to spray dust in my mouth. To say "surprised" would be a bit of an understatement. :D

Other than that, I've never experienced a ricochet using any caliber unless I hit the frame.

Pops

BigFunWMU
February 19, 2006, 02:43 PM
FMJ rounds are more likely that plain lead to richochet stuff back at you. Reason is the jacket tends to keep the bullet intact, whereas a lead bullet tends to come apart.

FirstFreedom
February 19, 2006, 05:45 PM
They DO shoot back. If you do it that close, make sure you have on eye protection and be prepared to be hit in the face & body, resulting in cuts/scratches. It WILL eventually happen if you shoot enough and if it's a high-powered rifle, it could even be fairly serious.

redbeard55
February 21, 2006, 08:43 PM
I agree with Ken O. The local club hosts a Steel Match twice a month. Distances are 10 yards out to 35 or 40 yards. Handgun calibers only. During the set up, the match directors are careful to have the plates directly facing the shooter. I typically shoot 158 grain LSWC in a revolver. Once I had a flattened slug come back and bounce off my shooting hand. Looked down at the ground and there was this nice little flattened lead slug. Barely had enough energy to make it back 8-10 yards. With the guys shooting 38 Super, the bullets literally fragment. During a typical match I am bombarded my very small fragments of lead falling from the sky. Mostly I notice the fragments on the top of my head. A lot of the shooters wear a cap just to keep the lead out of their hair. Considering each shooter typically shoots 150-250 rounds per match and there are sometimes upwards of 30 shooters a match, this amounts of thousands and thousands of rounds a year without serious injury. Like Ken O I've seen a couple of guys that took rounds that barely broke skin. The bleeding lasted maybe 10 seconds Can't remember tell of anyone ever going to the hospital. Eye protection however is a definite must.

TBT
February 26, 2006, 01:49 AM
Normally I just use my regular eye glasses for eye protection (not sure if this is fine or stupid really). Should I look into some sort of safety glasses or express intended shooting glasses?

I would either need something that would fit over my glasses or clip onto the frame of my glasses. My eye sight isn't that awful bad (I don't wear glasses through most of my day) but its bad enough that my shooting suffers without them.

30-40Krag dude
February 26, 2006, 02:30 AM
i use the.22 reset target, and have had a few small chunks come back and hit things near me. i decided to order some polymer targets for the 9mm instead of steel. i have not tried them out yet, hopefuly soon.

http://stores.ballistictec.com/Detail.bok?no=39

Nortonics
February 26, 2006, 09:28 AM
We put thousands of .22 LR's into a target like this at 30' - so much so the thing is just about toast from all the chips coming off over time:

http://altura.speedera.net/ccimg.catalogcity.com/200000/205800/205823/Products/6853987.jpg

We've also put close to a thousand rounds into a spinner like this at 30' with the .45's, and it too is starting to shows some definite signs of wear:

http://www.helpfulhunter.com/images/products/638.jpg

We've been peppered by assorted size fragments before but never anything serious. The most amusing thing I've found is that when I get whacked it's not so much the whack that surprises me as it is the temperature of the fragment - I've had 'em get under my clothes and they are a tad bit warm, even more so than a shell going down your shirt. Nothing that an idiot dance won't cure though... ;) Just be prepared as it will happen. Should make you rethink your eye wear choice being certain that your lenses are an unbreakable polycarbonate material...

Mike T
February 26, 2006, 09:55 AM
When the steel becomes "cratered" or dented is when you'll start to see lead and jacketing come back at you. Steel that has been properly maintained will allow for "crumbs" to come back at a real slow rate.

I shoot a steel plate league at an indoor range that has a baffle type backstop that is cratered from lack of maintenance and people shooting rifles at baffles that aren't designed for rifle fire. We get large pieces of jacketing and lead hitting us quite often at great speed.

I can't speak for IPSC but IDPA rules require steel be 10 yds from the shooter.

sparkysteve
February 26, 2006, 11:14 AM
I've thrown thousands of rounds at similar targets with no problems. I think that the manufacturer is just covering it's backside. Which everyone has to do in todays legal society. Just like the: CAUTION HOT! on your gas station coffee cup.

smince
February 26, 2006, 02:38 PM
Nothing that an idiot dance won't cure though... Just be prepared as it will happen.

I hope you are still capable of maintaining muzzle control while doing this "idiot dance"!:rolleyes:

Nortonics
February 26, 2006, 06:11 PM
I hope you are still capable of maintaining muzzle control while doing this "idiot dance"!:rolleyes:
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Yeah, we do, but we can make an exception in case you're around... :rolleyes:

tjhands
February 27, 2006, 06:25 PM
Here's a great post on this topic. Sounds like he knows what he's talking about......


Not to highjack the thread, but the subject came up...

I’ve shot handgun on metal targets since 1974 or so. I know I’ve personally fired over 20,000 rounds on metal targets in that time and supervised (ran the match) many times that many. I have one colleague who has supervised and shot a lot more.

The primary value of a metal – gong – target is ease of scoring. If it makes a sound, you hit it; if no sound results, you missed. In practice sessions this gives immediate feedback to the shooter.

On a flat metal surface more or less perpendicular to the path of the bullet, bullets do not ricochet. Handgun bullets fragment on impact, even fully jacketed bullets. The fragments fly off the face of the target along the face of the target. Anything to the edges of the target will be peppered with fragments; dangerously so up close. The fragments fly in a 360 degree pattern, parallel to the face of the target. If the fragments hit another solid surface, one obtains a secondary splatter effect. So, metal targets should not be hung over concrete pads or a metal plate. A bullet fragment splattering off the target can be secondarily deflected back to the firing line. (This is the usual cause of ricochet hits in indoor ranges; sort of a two or three cushion shot back to the firing line.)

Another, very serious form of ricochet is from a cupped or cratered metal target.

Metal targets suffer from three forms of damage. All are annoying, and all can cause fragments back toward the firing line.

Craters or cups in metal targets are the most dangerous. By cup, I refer to an indentation that does not penetrate the plate. Cups are usually formed by impact of a large heavy bullet. The resulting indentation can – on the next hit – allow the projectile to slide down the side of the cup, be turned in the bottom and slide out of the cup right back at the firing line with little loss of velocity. Even if the bullet hits the bottom of the cup and shatters, the sides of the cup direct the fragments back toward the firing line.

Holes in metal targets are typically caused by high velocity impacts. Various strength metals have different limits, of course. What works well for moderate handgun rounds can be cratered or punctured by a top end .357 Magnum load. A .30-30 rifle, pedestrian as it may seem, will put about a .40 - .50 inch hole in quarter inch mild steel plate. The resultant hole will almost always have a raised rim around the entry side. This raised rim will fling minor fragments back toward the firing line, usually at the unnoticed to annoying level. Depending on the size of the rim, this could be potentially dangerous.
The round that penetrates steel can peel off the jacket and the jacket can be ejected in any direction. I have witnessed one minor injury from a jacket bounce; a small but rather painful cut on the forearm requiring a stitch or two to repair. Being hit in the eye with such debris would be catastrophic.

The third problem is the bending of the plate. Shooting mild steel or boiler plate with non-penetrating rounds is pretty much like beating on it with a hammer. Sooner or later, the plate will start to bend under the impact. Turning the plate around and shooting the other side will beat it back flat, more or less.

I am not a metallurgist. I once knew what kind of plate to ask for at the metal yard, but I’ve forgotten. The good news is the people at the metal yard know about it and will direct one’s attention to the material best suited.

For general handgun use, I suggest nothing thinner than three-eighths inch thickness. Rifle targets should be thicker for longevity. Again, talk to the man at the metal yard.

If you know anyone with experience building a silhouette target set, they are an excellent source of information.
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Archie

smince
February 27, 2006, 06:32 PM
Yeah, we do, but we can make an exception in case you're around...

The reason I was asking was because I've seen muzzles go in every direction except downrange when hot brass went down a shirt...:rolleyes:

miniuzi
February 28, 2006, 03:51 PM
Video of a round coming back and hitting a spectator.
http://www.break.com/index/targetshot.html