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gdeal
February 13, 2006, 06:33 PM
Do you think there should be some kind of hunting education and/or training?

youp
February 13, 2006, 06:36 PM
Are you asking if we should have a European style proficiency test?

Dead-Nuts-Zero
February 13, 2006, 06:48 PM
The Big Shots (is that a pun?) would be exempt from such education.


On another side, there was another NYPD rookie killed and I think it was a shooting but not positive.

Between the recent NYC Cops and the VP, we better hang on to our asses as we are about to be blasted again by the Anti's..... who have all the right answers... as we all know!

No Guns - No Guns - NONE! Take them away from them. No Guns!!!

Ms. priss Hillary and Uncle Shoomie will have a field day with this one!

garand_shooter
February 13, 2006, 06:48 PM
PA has mandatory hunter education for first time licensees. In looking for hunting excursions in different states, several require proof of passing hunter education in your home state to acquire a license.

Dirty_Harry
February 13, 2006, 07:18 PM
Personally I don't see the point in taking hunter education, I mean all you have to do is practice firearm safety right?

I might be quoted a few times for this.:D

roy reali
February 13, 2006, 07:43 PM
I think that there ought to be some sort of shooting requirement connected with a license issue. I do not mean anything that would take an expert marksman to pull off, but something that shows some basic gun handling ability.

Here in California they have a handgun handling quiz a purchaser must accomplish. basically, you have demonstrate to the gun dealer that you know how to safely handle the handgun you are buying. You have to open the cylinder or remove the magazine. You have show how to determine if the gun is unloaded. You have to point out any safety devices too.

As goofy as this may sound, it almost makes sense, at least by California standards.

iudoug
February 13, 2006, 07:51 PM
does anybody know for sure???Maybe Cheney had some type of training??? Who knows....all the education and training in the world isn't going to stop a guy from getting excited once in awhile hunting and just plain screwing up. Did he aim to do it or was it an accident? With every accident do we all have too dream up some more paper and bulls#$% to wade through?? Sometimes sh55 happens ...people need to let it go!!:rolleyes:

Cmu_Sniper
February 13, 2006, 08:17 PM
Who cares anyway. If it wouldnt have been the VP, we would have never heard about it. Accidents involving guns happen every day.

the_oklahombre
February 13, 2006, 08:43 PM
The news said tonight that all the hunters were walking in a straight line, and the guy left the line to retrieve a bird. This they claim was against the ranch rules for hunting. Cheney swings the gun up to nail a bird and there's a guy standing where he shouldn't be standing. It's a hard thing to call. Yes he should have been looking, but how are we supposed to look where the barrel swing goes while still keeping an eye on the bird?

Csspecs
February 13, 2006, 10:07 PM
It's called oops.

Some facts that could help see why it may have happened:

1. Two people had just arrived in a vehicle.

2. The VP wears eye glasses, so if he is like most people with glasses then he poor peripheral vision. So if he was looking at the bird the hunter looked like a blob at best.

3. What was the lay of the land? If the other hunter was coming over a small hill he would not have been seen.

4. Was it windy? I have had my vision blurred by a sudden blast of wind, and I know I would still try to make the shot work even if I could not see very well.

5. A large number of birds did jump. I know that I would be working on getting as many down as I could, and the brain in hunting mode seems to scoff at safety when it sees game.

Anyway it's not like he killed the guy. Just "knocked him silly".

Art Eatman
February 13, 2006, 11:10 PM
FWIW, cheney apparently has done a good bit of shotgunning. There was a bunch of left-wing fussing about his getting flown to SW Louisiana for a duck-hunting trip a year or two ago. You want a visit from the VP? Offer him some good bird-hunting. :)

Art

trigger happy
February 13, 2006, 11:16 PM
there are alot of states where you have to attend a hunter safety course before you can get a hunting license..some people just get "buck fever" no matter what game they hunt

bigben
February 14, 2006, 12:09 AM
I think there should be gun handling classes and maybe shoot not shoot lessions

youp
February 14, 2006, 08:43 AM
Colorado requires hunter safety with a date of birth like 1939 or something really covers most all. I am old enough to remember when 10 or 15 hunters a year bought the farm in the deer firearms seasons. Hunter safety classes for new hunters and hunter orange solved alot of problems. I would recommend that everyone take a refresher class now and again. You may learn something or you may be an asset to the class with you experience. You may even decide to get certified to teach a class.

As far as the VP shooting a lawyer, it was not exactly a shoot out. The guy took a load from a 28 ga. 7 1/2 or 8 shot probably. I do not know why he went to the ICU, you or I would have poured some whiskey on and in and popped the shot out and gone on.

I am fasinated by the media making a big stink over it. A couple of old, rich, powerful Republicans launched and caught some shot. It was an accident that only made news because of who they are. If you were involved would you call AP and say a whacked this dude while hunting? More non-news cluttering up the air ways.

loggerhead
February 14, 2006, 09:03 AM
It has been my experience that most states require hunters education. I helped teach the course for a couple of years when it was first started in Alabama and there is a session on fire arms safety.

willsjeep
February 14, 2006, 10:36 AM
Yes hunter education is a requirement in Ga and should be in every state.

I agree with Youp, more non-news for the talking heads on TV. A 24 hour news network has to find something to blabber about.
It was a bad thing to happen, but it was a minor accident.
What was the actual distance?
Was he over a rise and caught falling shot?
He was away from the main body, why didn't he announce that he was rejoining?
Why didn't he come back from behind the group?
Just a few questions I am sure the news will never let us know.
But once again, it is a non-news event anyway.

The news folks complaining about not knowing about it as soon as it happened is what gets me.
Will

Limeyfellow
February 14, 2006, 11:56 AM
Its hard to even call him a hunter. They get out their car, and they release the caged animals and then he annihilates 70 or 80 of them in a session for the helluva of it, while the handlers do the work for them. No one could even really call what they are doing hunting.

Wild Bill Bucks
February 14, 2006, 02:11 PM
There has to be a good LAWYER joke in here somewhere !

Most states already have adequate hunter safety courses in place, but they will never be able to compare with some good old fashion common sense.

Everyone who hunts knows,RULE #1, is watch everyone at all times in the field, and don't put yourself in harms way. Although it is difficult to do all the time, it is up to each of us to watch his own BUTT.
Even with the best hunters there will be accidents, just like with any other sport.
Given the amount of hunters in the field on any given year, I would stack the mishaps up against any other sport out there.

This just boils down to a bad accident on a slow news day.

Hkmp5sd
February 14, 2006, 05:32 PM
I think this is typical anti-gun thinking. One high profile person made a stupid mistake and everyone is pushing more gun laws. In this case, training and/or more extensive training than is currently required. This was a single incident and doesn't even deserve a front page story, much less 24/7 CNN coverage. We don't need more training requirements. We need people to get a life and worry about something actually important.

MeekAndMild
February 14, 2006, 11:04 PM
This is BS. Lawyers ignore the rules.

The entire incident would be below the public radar screen if it weren't for the need to create a smokescreen to hide Al Gore's recent treasonous speech. :barf:

The only requirement for training should be a marksmanship course in high school PE, required to get a high school diploma.

Art Eatman
February 15, 2006, 09:37 AM
Limeyfellow: Caged birds? I missed that, in the articles.

The Armstrong ranch is down in that King Ranch country. John B. was attorney for the KR; his son now runs the Amrstrong operation.

Hunting from a vehicle is common in "big country". You drive along to where quail are or might be. If you see a covey, folks jump out and "go play". Or, you stop and get out and then work likely cover. I've covered as many as fifty miles in a day in my area, in the back country. I've walked eight and ten miles, as well.

All the safety classes and training in the world are of no use whatsoever once you have that quail bird in line with that front sight. Nothing else exists in your vision except some blur. This is nothing new; Hemingway wrote about it, as did Ruark--and that was decades ago...

Art

loggerhead
February 15, 2006, 10:21 AM
ART, are you saying that "its all in the game-expect to shoot your hunting buddy if you go quail hunting."???????????:eek:
When did they stop using dogs to quail hunt in texas. WE use to ride in vehicles ok, but we were folloing dogs and when they pointed we got out and shot the birds. Never did shoot each other.:D

Greg Bell
February 15, 2006, 12:49 PM
It was an accident folks. Get real.

kiov
February 15, 2006, 04:33 PM
hi,
I'm not a bird hunter but I always thought you would observe the 180 rule at least. It seems the VP turned almost all the way around and shot. Is that usual for bird hunting? I don't want to pre-judge the man, but some details would ease my mind.

The bottom line is that here is a guy who holds our lives in his hands and it appears he may be a reckless person with potentially fatal results.

I wouldn't say, "oh come on, its no big deal," when the man might die.

Also he didn't just "wing" the guy. They took 200 pellets out of his face, neck and chest. He had a heart attack this am due to a pellet in his heart.

kiov

Art Eatman
February 15, 2006, 05:03 PM
Y'know, you really gotta be reaching to come up with "expect to shoot your hunting buddy". The deal is that any time a group is hunting, you work to AVOID shooting your hunting buddy. And remember, it's mutual responsibility for all concerned.

That said, and remembering that all we have to go by is the news reports, Whittington had made himself not part of the group. What he thought Cheny was doing or was gonna do is not what Cheney did. And vice versa. They both lost "situational awareness". Shooter and shootee both screwed up.

As near as I can tell, Cheney *assumed* Whittington was back by the car, or well behind him, or some such. Whittington *assumed* he'd catch up with Cheney before Cheney found any more birds.

I don't mean to make light of it; it's tragic. No doubt. But, accidents DO happen.

I'd rather try to figure out what real-world lessons can be learned, rather than go playing the blame-game.

To me, it reinforces the bit about situational awareness, and the need for all parties in a hunt to make sure they know where the others are, or which way they're headed.

Ever seen or shot Sporting Clays? Where they have limit stakes to control your shooting angles? When hunting with a group, you MUST never lose the imaginary location of those limit stakes. That way, you don't swing toward a partner who maybe got a few steps ahead. If a bird gets outside your limit, stop. Courtesy sez holler, "Your bird!" or some such agreed upon deal. But you have to think about it, and make it a reflex.

But like the song sez, "Hindsight's 20-20..." and it does no good unless you think about it ahead of time and go over the rules when you get with a group.

Art

kiov
February 16, 2006, 01:09 PM
I think Art makes the right points here concerning hunting safety.

This morning I saw the VP take responsiblity for the accident, which goes a long way with me. No excuses, no blame directed elsewhere. I gained more respect for the man. It wasn't the usual politician reply. Refreshing.

A reckless or irresponsible person would have been pointing at everyone and everything else to show how he wasn't to blame.

It just bugs me that this hurts pro-gun people since many non-shooters think this proves something. Still, hard to blame Cheney when he steps up and says, "I pulled the trigger. Its my fault, period."

kiov

FirstFreedom
February 21, 2006, 10:50 PM
Yes. And there is, at least in my state, at least for those born 1972 or later. I am grandfathered having been born before that, but all the young uns and everyone from here on out will have to participate in hunter education and pass the test at the end of the day to get any hunting license.

Wild Bill Bucks
February 22, 2006, 01:36 PM
Regardless what happened, I would still rather go bird hunting with Dick Cheney than go for a car ride with Ted Kennedy !!:D

Art Eatman
February 22, 2006, 06:47 PM
Wuz coffeeing with Jim Wilson, yesterday. He got a call from a WashPost reporter on the story. The reporter was up front, admitting he kneww nothing about guns and hunting.

Jim pointed out that if you're gonna go dove and quail hunting, you're gonna get "rained on". That's just part of the deal. Hunting can be dangerous. Same for snowboarding or football. Or commuting via motorcycle. Most of the time, it's merely a joking matter. This event was unusual in that regard.

Jim explained about the "delay" in law enforcement investigation: Most rural sheriffs know most of the ranchers in their counties. Now, the Armstrongs aren't a flight risk. The Vice-President of the United States is certainly not a flight risk. No "red flags" about the incident, so what's the rush? The priority is the medical attention and family notification and all that important stuff, not routine paperwork.

Art

PSE
February 22, 2006, 06:52 PM
everyone i know that quail hunts on a reg. basis has been peppered, peppered someone, or been w/ someone who has.

shureshot0471
March 5, 2006, 01:00 PM
If joe bob and joe bill had the accdent would anybody ever hear bout this happens every year in Texas people the press is tearing this Country apart:mad: :mad: :mad:

Capt Charlie
March 5, 2006, 01:30 PM
:D :D


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=17966&stc=1&d=1141583372

loggerhead
March 5, 2006, 04:47 PM
Art and pse, Gentlemen I have hunted quail for over 50 years, trained and sold bird dogs for awhile after I got out of the service and I have never known anyone to get "sprayed" during a quail hunt. I have known of a couple, but only a couple who were shot while quail hunting, always due to the shooters carelessness. I have also shot doves during this entire time and folks get "sprinkled" (we call it rained on) on practically every hunt, but I have know of a couple who got shot also while dove hunting and again due to carelessness.
In either case, getting shot is due to carelessness on the part of the shooter, I would hope nothing more and nothing less and getting sprayed is not a common occurance during quail hunting.
I challenge you to call a few large quail hunting reserve and ask them how many of their hunters got shot last year.

roy reali
March 5, 2006, 05:24 PM
I have never peppered anyone while hunting. I have never been peppered. Maybe if I hunt often enough and long enough it will happen, or maybe I am very picky about who I hunt with.

Art Eatman
March 5, 2006, 07:04 PM
Lordy!

Somewhere in one of these threads I commented that both Cheney and Whittington had lost situational awareness. Sure, that's carelessness, but rather than the generic word "carelessness", I preferred the more specific term for what happened.

Doesn't matter one iota if it's never happened to you. Or, to me. It has happened to others and will continue through the years. Somewhere, sometime, it's gonna happen to someone. 99% of the time, it's "rained on".

Art

Rimrock
March 5, 2006, 07:16 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0803/Rimfire01/Quailin.jpg

Rimrock

lizziedog1
March 5, 2006, 07:25 PM
ROY
You will have to try harder next time.:D

roy reali
March 5, 2006, 09:38 PM
We all have seen gun safety rules. They are listed in most guns' owner's manuals. They are taught in hunter safety courses. Ammunition manufacturers use them is their advertising. Sometimes they are referred to as commandments. No matter where they are seen, they have the same basic gun safety rules. They might be worded different, but the messages are the same.

One rule that is always included has to do with identifying your target. It says that the intended target must be clearly visible and the background must be likewise. One is not to pull the trigger until these two requirements have been met. There is nothing in this rule that makes an exception for bird hunting. There is no asterick with an explantion that says that if one is following a fast, small bird with their shotgun, then this rule does not apply.

Whenever and wherever someone shoots someone else, a safety rule was violated. I will go home empty handed before I ever violate one of these rules. I will not hunt with anyone that thinks these rules are to be applied on a situational method.

Art Eatman
March 6, 2006, 10:55 AM
"I will not hunt with anyone that thinks these rules are to be applied on a situational method."

I don't think anybody who's discussed the event has advocated anything like that.

What I've tried to point out is what happens to people who've lost situational awareness, and have adrenalin pumping.

If ya just gotta talk about rules and commandments, the mainest rule about hunting in a group is that everybody has a mutual responsibility for ensuring that everybody knows everybody's location at all times.

Art

roy reali
March 6, 2006, 11:32 AM
If I have misunderstood you I apologize. But when you add terms like, "situational awareness" and "adrenalin" to you replies it comes across as though you are making alibies. Those two terms are not part of any gun safety rules I have ever read.

How would you like to be flying in a 767 at 40,000 feet with a pilot that has problems with situational awareness?

Art Eatman
March 6, 2006, 04:27 PM
Well, I guess if I have a conflict with the idea that rules = commandments, it's along the line that circumstances trump rules.

Sure, it's easy to agree with the rule that you should always be aware of what's behind your target. I fully agree.

But how about the group-hunt responsibility that Whittington should have made his location known? And, of course, Cheney should have been checking around to make sure of the location of the rest of the group, including Whittington.

And all that brings us to circumstance. Whittington didn't sing out as he approached. Cheney thought he was still back by the vehicle. Cheney gets focussed on the bird, and we all should know what happens to peripheral vision. Last, Cheney swings into the direction of a 4PM sun.

Circumstances cam:e together such that Cheney could not see Whittington in time to realize the mistake.

Okay. All that said: The Newsweek article said the quail flushed from behind Cheney. I guess it's at least halfway obvious that if you're with any sort of group, it's pretty difficult to do an about-face without covering somebody as you turn. IOW, don't go for that particular bird.

Nobody broke any rules on purpose. I just try to figure out how stuff happens so I can avoid having such a problem in my own future.

:), Art

roy reali
March 6, 2006, 05:34 PM
The VP admitted that the Sun had been a factor. His vision was blurred by it. At that point, his following of the bird should have halted. It would be like shooting at a deer on ridge without knowing what is behind it.

Unless you are saying there is an exception to safety rules when small, fast birds are involved. You can use the blurred vision, adrenalin pumping excuse for most hunting accidents. The guy that shoots the steer can say that he was so excited that the horns looked like antlers. You could call that a situational circumstance too.

With all due respect, I would never hunt with someone with your attitude about hunting safety and accidents. This statement will probably get me flamed and or expelled from this forum. But I have strong feelings about this.