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View Full Version : Do/should CCWs call the police after every incident?


Ices
February 12, 2006, 07:00 PM
I've read many incidents of people needing to draw on a threat, just to have the threat run away. However, I never read of whether or not they called the police afterwards. I don't have a permit (i'm 20, and in MD), so there is a lot I don't know about CCW. Is it a standard procedure to call the cops after every incident in which you need to draw?

Jkwas
February 12, 2006, 07:07 PM
We were instructed that any incident involving the drawing or display of your weapon requires that you call the police. Two reasons: First, the person you drew on can't claim you were brandishing and you have your side of the story on record, second: If there's a trouble maker out there, they want to talk to him before he accosts someone else. Just common sense really.

Sir William
February 12, 2006, 07:35 PM
The Good Samaritan is the exception rather than the rule today. Lawsuits, video cameras, video vigilantes and the ignorant application of human rights to criminals demands we report. There are 2 sides, the one with the best documentation is often the one given credence, irregardless of truth.

TexasSIGMan
February 12, 2006, 07:39 PM
First one to call gets to set the tone for the rest of the story.

Which scenario below would you rather be in the middle of?

You have to draw your weapon during a road rage incident, the other guy runs off. You call police, calmly describe the incident and give your name.

You have to draw your weapon during a road rage incident, the other guy runs off but calls the cops, screaming about some guy in the intersection pulling a gun on him threatening to shoot everyone, and gives them your license plate.



You think he's gonna tell the cops it was his fault? Would a couple minutes on the phone be worth it?
Until and unless the other guy calls them they don't have a complainant anyway so nothing is going to happen to you. Be first to call in.

FireBreather01
February 12, 2006, 07:44 PM
Absolutely, without question - do you want to be the one explaining why you were brandishing and making theatening gestures to all of the nice folks on the corner or in the convenience store? OR do you want to calmly call 911 and explain that you were threatened, stopped a crime, etc and would like a PO to come by and take a statement. It's much better doing it that way than being targeted for a felony stop by troopers or the police because 2 or 3 people called and claimed you are going to shoot up the area.

Action beats reaction - even for getting your side of the story out first!

KSFreeman
February 12, 2006, 08:03 PM
Yes.

Do not believe the media/gun shop commando nonsense where people pull guns on each other and nothing happens.

Hook686
February 12, 2006, 09:02 PM
Today, 07:35 PM #3
Sir William
Senior Member


...

"... the ignorant application of human rights to criminals ...."

Is this another way of saying, "Justice is blind" ? :confused:

CraigJS
February 12, 2006, 09:07 PM
Also give a description of YOURSELF. A LEO comming onto any scene that involves a gun won't know who's the "good guy or who's the bad guy", just that someone has a gun. Ask them (the 911 op) to give YOUR description to the responding officers, and that your the good guy...

Ices
February 12, 2006, 09:10 PM
Thanks for the info. For some reason, I never thought of it that way (the BG calling the cops on ME if I felt threatened and needed to draw). Learn something new everyday.

riverrat66
February 12, 2006, 09:44 PM
You have to draw your weapon during a road rage incident, the other guy runs off.
I'm having a problem with this "scenario". Why do you have to draw you weapon during any "road rage" incident unless you are being threatened with deadly physical harm? If the other guy is so "out of control wouldn't it be wiser to just remain in the car with the doors locked and call the police on your cell phone? Road rage is illegal! Why should you even be out of the vehicle risking your life at all? If the guy is threating you with deadly physical harm and you feel the need to draw your weapon then you shoot him dead, that's the reason you are carrying the weapon in the first place. You're not carrying the weapon to "scare" anyone. If you do not have the mindset or are not prepared to use it then you should not be carrying a handgun, period!

In answer to your question, yes you better call the police because in New York State it's "illegal to point a handgun at another person for the sole purpose of intimidating or scaring that person". So the other guy will probably have you arrested for pointing the handgun at him! That's the way it is in NYS!

TexasSIGMan
February 12, 2006, 10:05 PM
riverrat, you must not have anything better to do tonight, it's just an example of two different stories, not a tactics discussion or law class......

Ease up on the freaking out OK?

Just to keep you happy let's pretend you're still in the car and blocked in by 3 pickups full of ****** off rednecks.... feel better with the "scenario"?

And no you are not always justified in shooting just because you've drawn your gun, if you really want to hijack this guys thread. Pulling a gun is not always threatening deadly force. Oh you like bold too, so here...... Not all states have the same laws as you do in New York.

Texas Penal Code:
Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.

If you do not have the mindset or are not prepared to use it then you should not be carrying a handgun, period!

Your mindset should be to protect yourself and stop the attack. If you can do so by presenting the weapon and not shooting, then you have done both the legal and moral thing. I guess there in New York you guys just look for excuses to shoot people?

riverrat66
February 12, 2006, 11:53 PM
TexasSIGMan,

Who's freaking out? I'm just expressing my opinion. I thought that was what this forum was all about. I didn't paint that "scenario" you did. Of course there could be a million different scenarios that would call for a million different reactions.

I had no intention of hijacking this thread but you certainly jumped into it didn't you?

When carrying a weapon one should be responsible enough to avoid unnecessary conflict, especially a road rage incident. I was trained to only point my firearm at something I planned on shooting. I do not go around waving my firearm around trying to scare people. Evidently you guys in Texas do it just for kicks. I guess down there if some guy just happens to walk up to you and looks suspicious you draw on him just to scare him away. In other words, it's OK to point your gun at someone just because you're afraid! Regardless if he's threatened you with physical bodily harm or not!
I don't look for an excuse to shoot anyone. I've done it before and it's not a pleasant thing to do and I hope I don't have to do it again. If anything I'll do what ever I can do avoid a physical confrontation. You're so eager to point your handgun at everyone I'm wondering if you have the balls to actually pull the trigger!

Respectfully,
Riverrat66

PS, I've been carrying concealed for over 30 years, how about you?

TexasSIGMan
February 13, 2006, 12:07 AM
riverrat, none of that addresses the topic. Scenarios used to contrast the topic are not that big a deal.

In a million different scenarios, the question of whether or not you should use the phone should always generate the same answer. If you draw your weapon, be the first to call it in.

riverrat66
February 13, 2006, 12:41 AM
If you draw your weapon, be the first to call it in.
I agree 100%

TexasSIGMan
February 13, 2006, 12:44 AM
Cool :) No offense intended by the way. :D

DerDer
February 13, 2006, 02:25 AM
I would recommend to all that you ALWAYS call the police after a minor incident. If you drive off there's really no chance of getting caught so just leave a little message. But it must be kept in mind nobody likes a tattle tale.

I never call the cops and regard as someone who does as an idiot.

Take care of your own business...You are a big boy now...

FireBreather01
February 13, 2006, 02:48 AM
I never call the cops and regard as someone who does as an idiot.

Well, to each - his own, - if you feel like sitting at a police station all day explaining why you shouldn't be ticketed for brandishing, assault, disorderly conduct - perhaps felony dc, losing your carry permit, posting bond, etc, etc, etc - then by all means don't be an idiot and call in something as minor as you feeling so threatened and endangered that you had to pull out your firearm.
Be my guest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And let us know how that works out for you!

rsmithsss
February 13, 2006, 07:11 AM
ABSOLUTELY- If you don't want to risk going to jail when the other party beats you to the phone!

invention_45
February 13, 2006, 07:48 AM
Let me add this. Even if somebody, who knows that you carry, only threatens to report that you've "pulled a gun on them" when you actually haven't you need to document that with the police, or with the civil courts (restraining order) IMMEDIATELY. If anybody else heard that threat, write it up and ask them to sign/notarize it.

In Florida, failure to do this exposes you to a mandatory 3 year prison sentence of which you must serve 100%. And Florida's relatively gun-friendly.

So, if THAT can happen, you most certainly better report any instance wherein you need to legitimately use your gun as a defensive threat. You can be darn sure that if you don't, the police will suddenly become the BG's best friends, because he'll report it.

I'm not a lawyer, but I have some..er..experience in this general area.

BigFunWMU
February 13, 2006, 08:22 AM
A phone is mandatory if you carry a gun, and if you can afford a gun, you can afford a phone.

You do not even need a "plan" or to be signed up with a carrier to be able to call 911 from a cell phone. All you need is a phone, signal, and a charged battery.

invention_45: +1 for the documentation. If someone is out to make your life dificult and unpleasnt, leave a paper trail a mile long of you being the good guy/victim. A PPO is a good idea, as it casts a huge shadow of doubt on any future stunts by the other party, or any other party associated with them.

Mark54g
February 13, 2006, 08:25 AM
Just my 2 cents, but sometimes Road Rage is not a 2 sided event. Someone may not like how you are driving, period. They may think you slighted them because they missed their turn and it is YOUR fault because you didn't know they were trying to cut across three lanes of traffic. Now it is YOUR fault they will miss their Gloria Estefan concert...

So they corner you up and then get out of the car. Do you sit there while they come up to the window with a tire iron? I say no. They present a bludgeoning weapon and you call 911 and draw. There is no reason that you should have to take them on or simply wait like a caged rat. You do NOT have to shoot immediately. If they see you unholster and run, does it mean you were not prepared to shoot? I could definately see the anti-testosterone effects of a muzzle coming up to a car window to take the steam out of the head of a puzzled asshat who thought he had the upper hand in this. He then suddenly realized he had to leave...NOW.

brett23
February 13, 2006, 09:10 AM
Mark54g

I agree completely, I understand the premise of "don't pull your weapon unless you are ready to shoot" but obviously a situtation such as you described is the perfect scenario for not shooting. I don't think the law would look kindly on shooting somebody in the back as they run away from you.:eek:

Jkwas
February 13, 2006, 10:15 AM
To me there is a difference between pulling a weapon and showing a weapon. If I was being approached in a parking lot, didn't like the looks of it, I would probably pull my gun, but keep it hidden behind me or in my pocket until i figured out what was going on. ;) If no one saw it, I wouldn't report it.

riverrat66
February 13, 2006, 12:42 PM
Mark54g,
I agree but you are talking about yet another scenario. Someone coming at you with a tire iron does indeed "present a danger" and as you said "there is no reason that you should have to take them on or simply wait like a caged rat. " So what do you do? Either run or defend yourself! Well, you said you were cornered and this guy is full of "road rage" which in my understanding means he is totally out of control. Do you think pointing a gun at him will actually calm him down? He may get even madder and try to take the gun away from you and he may succeed because of that split second you're thinking about scaring him with the firearm not shooting.

I was originally talking about standing in some intersection waving a firearm at some guy because he's hollering at you during his road rage incident. I just didn't think that was justification for drawing ones firearm.

I don't think the law would look kindly on shooting somebody in the back as they run away from you.
If they are running away the threat is no longer there.

To me there is a difference between pulling a weapon and showing a weapon.
Jkwas,
I agree 100%

Mannlicher
February 13, 2006, 06:30 PM
the first 40 or 50 times I had to pull the Roscoe, yeah, I called the cops. Now though, I don't bother. :)

Jkwas
February 13, 2006, 06:35 PM
40 or 50 times? Do you live in Miami or Riviera Beach?

CraigJS
February 13, 2006, 08:40 PM
Big Fun your right you don't need a plan to call 911.. But try calling a lawyer with out some sort of "plan". Monthly or pay as you go... God forbid if you ever have to shoot some one or discharge your weapon, and can't reach a lawyer!!

riverrat66
February 13, 2006, 09:51 PM
40 or 50 times? Do you live in Miami or Riviera Beach?
Either one I think I'd have to move! You might be safer living in Beirut! :eek:

TooTall
February 14, 2006, 10:09 AM
To simplify matters, if you had a valid reason for drawing your firearm, there was PROBABLY a criminal act that prompted you to do so. If you don't report that criminal act, it will go unnoticed and the bad guy(s) might carry out a crime elsewhere.

While reporting that incident, the drawing of your weapon SHOULD be mentioned, to at least give the "appearance" of you having done what a "reasonable" person would have done in the same situation. Your firearm thwarted the criminal act, but you were STILL a "victim".

"Brandishing" laws (generally) consider the drawing of a weapon when there was no necessity or reasonableness to do so as a crime. Most state laws throw in the words "rude and/or threatening", which means that the weapon was drawn purely due to anger or to **** off someone. Add to that, if words are exchanged during the "brandishing" of a firearm, it may lead to charges of being a "hate" crime.

If you ever HAVE to draw your weapon for any valid reason, keep your words short and sweet...even "polite"! Then, when you report the inident, make sure to mention that you were "respectful" of the bad guy(s), and used the terms "Please" and "Sir".
Don't go "Dirty Harry" and recite the "I know what you're thinkin', punk!" line! It'd be better to say, "I know what you're thinkin'.....SIR!"

CyberSEAL
February 14, 2006, 04:56 PM
The exact scenario described by several people in this thread happened to me the other day. I've had my CCW for nearly 5 years and have never drawn on anyone or even come close, until about two weeks ago.

I was heading to work midday on a Sunday, on a 4 lane parkway (2 lanes in each direction). I'm approaching a slower moving van in the left lane, I go to pass her on the right, and some guy that had been maintaining his speed a few car lenghts back in the right lane, speeds up for the sole purpose of disallowing me to pass.

I made the pass anyways, which he interpreted as cutting him off I suppose. We come to a stoplight soonafter, and he hops out and starts walking up to my window. I had no time or patience for this nonsense, and I flashed my piece at him. He jumped back, nearly falling down backwards, and got back in his truck. Luckily the light turned green right after this and I sped off, taking a few backroads to get to work and making sure he made no atttempt to follow me.

---

I pondered calling the Police for all the reasons listed here. However, I know that if he called the Police, in this county, they would've told him he should not have gotten out of his vehicle like that. I opted not to call the Police and I've never heard a word about it. Don't expect to either.

riverrat66
February 14, 2006, 06:44 PM
TooTall,
+ 1

CyberSEAL sez:
I made the pass anyways, which he interpreted as cutting him off I suppose. We come to a stoplight soon after, and he hops out and starts walking up to my window. I had no time or patience for this nonsense, and I flashed my piece at him. He jumped back, nearly falling down backwards, and got back in his truck. Luckily the light turned green right after this and I sped off, taking a few backroads to get to work and making sure he made no attempt to follow me.
So you were able to interpret what this guy was thinking, at least you suppose. And you had no time or patience for that nonsense so you just flashed your piece at him. Did this guy threaten you with physical harm? Did he approach your car in a threating manor? Maybe he was only going to ask you for directions, unlikely but possible. He was already out of his truck so why didn't you just drive away?

How's this for a scenario, you're sitting in your car flashing your gun at this guy because he got out of his truck for whatever reason and approached your car. Now who has the advantage? You're sitting in your car and he's standing outside. All he has to do is quickly take a couple steps aside, as he pulls his gun and put two in your head then tell the cops all he wanted to do was ask for directions and you pulled a gun on him when he approached your car. Does that sound too far fetched? I don't think so especially if you were alone and he had a passenger as a witness. Hypothetically speaking that is.

My point being, was it absolutely necessary to draw your weapon and "flash" it at this guy? Granted he probably should not have gotten out of his truck under the circumstances and he really didn't want to ask for directions but all you had to do was simply was drive away, period. Then if this azzhole continued to follow you or chases you that changes the entire picture. I would then drive to the nearest police station or stop at the nearest police car. Like I said when carrying, I will do anything to avoid a confrontation.

Dust_Devil
February 14, 2006, 08:09 PM
I too was told by my CCW instructor that any time you would have to pull your gun out on somebody, no matter if you pulled the trigger or not, to always make a report to the police as quick as possible after the incident as many criminals will report you to the police for pulling a weapon on them. If you never report the incident yourself, the police may think you were hiding the fact and then believe the bad guy.

Tonyny
February 14, 2006, 08:25 PM
Quote:
CyberSEAL sez:
I made the pass anyways, which he interpreted as cutting him off I suppose. We come to a stoplight soon after, and he hops out and starts walking up to my window. I had no time or patience for this nonsense, and I flashed my piece at him. He jumped back, nearly falling down backwards, and got back in his truck. Luckily the light turned green right after this and I sped off, taking a few backroads to get to work and making sure he made no attempt to follow me.

So you were able to interpret what this guy was thinking, at least you suppose. And you had no time or patience for that nonsense so you just flashed your piece at him. Did this guy threaten you with physical harm? Did he approach your car in a threating manor? Maybe he was only going to ask you for directions, unlikely but possible. He was already out of his truck so why didn't you just drive away?

Maybe he was gonna buy him a cup of coffee also, eh.:rolleyes: Maybe he didn't feel like getting broadsided by running the light. Some nutcase comes running up to my car in a case like THIS and I'm gonna let him peek at my piece also. Easier than getting a tire iron upside my head. Not evrything in LIFE is by the book...

riverrat66
February 14, 2006, 09:40 PM
he hops out and starts walking up to my window
"starts walking up to my window"?
Some nutcase comes running up to my car. Easier than getting a tire iron upside my head
"running up to my car", "a tire iron upside my head". What thread are you reading? Coulda, shoulda, woulda but he didn't have the time or patience for that nonsense.

Believe me there is no love lost here for anyone with road rage. They should be removed from the road permanently. But I also feel very strongly about people going around, indiscriminately pointing guns at other people because as this gentleman so casually puts it, he didn't have the time or patience for this nonsense.

Carrying a concealed weapon is a huge responsibility but when one begins brandishing their firearm for no apparent reason other then scaring or intimidating someone, especially when the threat of deadly physical harm is non-existent, then we as gun owners are taking a giant step backward and playing into the hands of the anti-gun people.

We could debate this until the cows come home. There are a million different scenarios that we could paint, each with a different outcome. Each state has their own laws and everyone has to live with their decisions and consequences of their actions.

That's my 2 cents worth!

Enough said.

Tonyny
February 14, 2006, 10:25 PM
Believe me there is no love lost here for anyone with road rage. They should be removed from the road permanently. But I also feel very strongly about people going around, indiscriminately pointing guns at other people because as this gentleman so casually puts it, he didn't have the time or patience for this nonsense.

Indiscriminately? Last I heard the guy CAME to him at a stop light, maybe needing directions, according to you. :rolleyes: Letting him peek at my gun is different than POINTING it at him. Get it straight.


Carrying a concealed weapon is a huge responsibility but when one begins brandishing their firearm for no apparent reason other then scaring or intimidating someone, especially when the threat of deadly physical harm is non-existent, then we as gun owners are taking a giant step backward and playing into the hands of the anti-gun people.

Blah, blah, blah.....hopefully the TEXTBOOK version saves your ass some day. Me I prefer living in the REAL world. If I''m MINDING my own business and some ******* apporaches my car because he has a problem with me crossing over to "his" lane I'll choose my defenses based on his demeanor. Not YOUR take on it.


We could debate this until the cows come home. There are a million different scenarios that we could paint, each with a different outcome. Each state has their own laws and everyone has to live with their decisions and consequences of their actions.

And thankfully I no longer live in NY pal. We don't have to RUN from lowlifes who threaten people down here.

Enough said.

Bingo

invention_45
February 15, 2006, 08:18 AM
There's a really good PRACTICAL reason to not show your weapon or any sign that you have it (like just holding up a holster to scare another driver).

A road-rager is already angry. Show him evidence you have a weapon, especially show the weapon so he can say "it was black", and he'll dial 911.

He can then tell the police all manner of stories about what you did with the gun he can describe, and he can be SURE what when you are stopped, which you now might well be in these circumstances, the gun will be there.

You will then be toast.

If you don't show the gun until needed, any road-rager would be taking his chances to just make that up, risking ending up in jail for the false report.

AirForceShooter
February 15, 2006, 10:09 AM
I'm with TonyNY.
I'm from NY like him and now in Fla with a ccw.
No i'm not calling the LEO's.
If the bad guy took off he's not calling anybody. Get real. He's probably got a record and doesn't want any part of the LEO's.
If he didn't take off he's got my bullet in him anf then I'll call.

Tony; with a name like that you have to be from the Bronx or Brooklyn.

AFS

invention_45
February 15, 2006, 10:23 AM
AFS:

In Broward County: 954 493 TIPS. It's anonymous and it's broadcast on TV every night.

You pull your gun on a BG. That works and he takes off. You use your reasoning and don't report it. BG calls crimestoppers, reports "what you did", which can be anything, and describes the gun you used to "do it". They look into it, and, sure enough, some witness saw the whole thing happen (from far enough away that all they know is you pointed a gun).

I'd report it.

AirForceShooter
February 15, 2006, 04:49 PM
your choice
But.. do you seriously believe a BG is going to call anybody???

That was my point

AFS

czc3513
February 15, 2006, 05:19 PM
I was heading to work midday on a Sunday, on a 4 lane parkway (2 lanes in each direction). I'm approaching a slower moving van in the left lane, I go to pass her on the right, and some guy that had been maintaining his speed a few car lenghts back in the right lane, speeds up for the sole purpose of disallowing me to pass.

I made the pass anyways, which he interpreted as cutting him off I suppose. We come to a stoplight soonafter, and he hops out and starts walking up to my window. I had no time or patience for this nonsense, and I flashed my piece at him. He jumped back, nearly falling down backwards, and got back in his truck. Luckily the light turned green right after this and I sped off, taking a few backroads to get to work and making sure he made no atttempt to follow me.
"We come to a stoplight soonafter, and he hops out and starts walking up to my window."
So he got out of his car at a stoplight?
You dont get out of your car at a stoplight to ask for directions.
What do you think he wanted to say?
Was he going to tell you that you cut him off?
Probably... But then what?
He probably wanted to argue/fight with you.
And he could have had a gun.
I would have flashed my gun too.