What is it with S&W

[18DAI]

I know I'm getting old ,but I do have more disposable income than when I was young. Does S&W not want my money? Anybody here impressed with anything they have rolled out at SHOT? Let me broaden it ,anybody lusting after any revolver they currently produce? IMHO they produce the ugliest revolvers I've ever seen. Now I'm not refering to their pre 2001 products. I've got a safe full of beautiful M19's, M66's, M15's, M13's, ect. I'm talking about these Zit wearing internal lock ,flat finished cylinder ,squished two piece barrel monstrosities. Am I alone in these thoughts or are there some other dinosaurs out there that would pay good money for a new "old fashioned" revolver? Regards 18DAI.

[firestorm9mm]

most definately the older are the better ones. I dont own one of their new zit guns

[raveneap]

Have to agree with you. But maybe we old dinosaurs think back to the "good old days?" :) What ever the case, I see nothing in S&W's present lineup that compares with this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/raveneap/SmithTextbig.jpg

[18DAI]

Raveneap - Now thats what I'm talking about! Blue steel you can see your ancestors in ,real wood grips ,no mickey mouse internal lock. Thanks, now I have a "new" model revolver ,to lust after and pursue. Regards 18DAI.

[XavierBreath]

http://www.bayourovers.com/SmithWessonModel10-5snubbie.jpg
S&W Model 10-5 $200
All I needed was a hint of an excuse to post this purty blue & walnut revolver.

I worry not that new S&Ws are not what I want. The used ones are cheaper anyway!

[Tacoma]

I'm with you, WAY preffer classicly styled blued revolvers, have settled for a few SS modles but am totally turned off by any of their current offerings ( Especially whn I can buy 2-3 older ones for the same price!) IF they don't watch it, they will go the way of GM: Overpriced and understyled for the market.

[Little Silas]

Like I said in an earlier post, they did not get rid of all of the holder-overs from the past regime.
They don't have a clue, and what's worse they don't want one.
They'll tell us what we want.

[texdawg]

XavierBreath, i have the identical piece, model 10-5 and I love it. I agree that the newer Smiths are nuttin to write home about.

[Blackhorse]

They just don't make them like they used to.

[ribbonstone]

Part of it is that they made them too well...those old guns just don't seem to wear out fast enough to keep the sales up. New models seem to spur at lesast some buyers to grab thier wallets just for the uniqueness of the offering...Botique revovlers, those ones you know are more or less a fad and won't be in the catalogue a year or two down the road.

But you guys re right...I've not seen anytig new from S&W I'd care to own in a good while. My last new S&W as a basic 442...that gun i like...and a 317...that gun i had to retro fit with steel sights as i don't care for the plastic glow sights.

[JJB2]

yep it's hard to beat an older s&w... i traded for a like new in box model 27 that was 1968 vintage a few yrs back it shoots so well i'm having thoughts of reblueing it to get rid of the age spots and little grrrs........been considering a brownells deluxe blue job...........

[firestorm9mm]

now I'm going to have to go take a pic of the l-frame

[firestorm9mm]

allright here it is my 581 with some handloads

[model 25]

You want better Smiths then write them and tell them.

25

[BillCA]

You want better Smiths then write them and tell them.

+1 for Model 25.

Sure, it may not do too much good in the short term. But if folks keep it up they'll get the message.

18DAI - S&W no longer produces handguns the way they did up through the 1970's. If so, you'd be complaining about a Model 19 costing $999 to pay for the hand labor and other expenses.

You mentioned the lock, the 2-piece barrels, matte finished cylinders as objects of scorn. Does that mean you have no problem with the MIM parts?
Nor do you complain about the new cylinder stop cut on the frame instead of a traditional frame lug.

S&W worked to develop and improve their stainless steel alloys from those we saw in the 1970's (with galling problems). Today's stainless guns use steel that's at least twice as good as the old stuff.

If you lament the lack of blued guns (and I do!) it isn't S&W you should complain to, but the EPA and state EPA along with the eco-terrorists who decry the release of a single molecule not created by nature. The bluing process uses corrosive salts to develop the finish -- salts that now have to be carefully handled, contained and a spill classifies as a "hazmat" condition, subject to reporting, fines, etc. Is it any wonder S&W selected to move to stainless guns?

The matte colored cylinders on some guns are simply due to the use of either Scandium or Titanium in the cylinders for lightweight. Neither will take bluing well. The matte finish requires less hand polishing of the surfaces to keep the price down.

If you want one of the "old fashioned" S&W's, write to them to see what the performance center will charge you for, say, a 6" Model 29 in a bright blue finish without the lock (if they'll do it), without MIM parts. I hope your wallet is deep because you'll probably have to pay twice as much for the hand finishing.

For what it's worth, I find the older S&W's are more appealing to the eye and generally better made. I'm not yet a total believer in the 2-piece barrel, though I have one. Two of my S&W's have the "zit" and neither has presented any kind of problem as yet. But I'm also pragmatic and understand that S&W has to use CNC machined or MIM parts to trim costs. I can also understand (but not like) the shift to stainless guns.

[ribbonstone]

Think many of us simply buy a good conditon old gun rather than the new offerings...S&W creating more demand in the used gun sector by ommision.

And i won't say all older S&W's are good. Was a tine frame in the late 1970's to middle 1980's when they really had some quality control problems.

[ribbonstone]

Think many of us simply buy a good conditon old gun rather than the new offerings...S&W creating more demand in the used gun sector by ommision.

And i won't say all older S&W's are good. Was a tine frame in the late 1970's to middle 1980's when they really had some quality control problems.

[18DAI]

BillCA - I'm a pragmatist too. I don't have a problem with MIM. I'm sure it's in more of my guns then I am aware. No problem with CNC either ,the cost of progress. I don't have a problem with $999 for a model 19 either ,after all they charge that, or more for the $$it they are currently pushing. I called and asked if I could get the "new" 29 without the lock and was told no. I like the new cylinder stop ,and if I didn't ,theres always Brownells. As far as what you say about the blue ,if EPA is their excuse for not doing it like they used to ,why can Novak's and Colt still do it? The jury is still out on the 2 piece barrel ,I hear NC DOC has had them seperating in their training division. S&W of course blames the ammo. I do not view it as an improvement ,just another cost cutting measure and cheapening of the final product. I guess my main problem is that besides not making anything that appeals to me ,or has any useful purpose for me, that idiotic internal lock is on everything. So even if I could find some appeal in a current product ,it would have to be a range only gun. Surely you don't advocate an internal lock ,which has documented failures ,on a carry piece? In any case the good news for me is, that back when they made fine handguns ,they made alot. So I comb gunshops and shows and accumulate plenty of fine revolvers and series 3 auto's. I've already got more than I need ,just not as many as I want. Regards 18DAI.

[shooter429]

Model 460XVR 4"
29 50th Anniv.
Miculek 327
586 L-comp
SW1911
410S
Model 41
Model 317

Currently own and love Model 329PD. Well finished. Good trigger. Easy to carry and shoot.

Shooter429

[18DAI]

Delete double post

[BillCA]

Surely you don't advocate an internal lock ,which has documented failures ,on a carry piece?

Source please? This is often said, seldom proven, at least to my knowledge. I have run across 1 -- just one -- account of a "lock issue" and that is suspect because the owner admitted opening up the gun and working on the action himself.

As to the "risk" of the lock activating on a carry piece, two of mine still have less than 1000 rounds through them and nothing indicates a problem with the lock. I've ignored the lock on them for over a year and just checked using the "key" -- no movement from the unlocked position. So I don't have a problem carrying one with the lock.

So you'd be willing to pay over $1,000 for a blued Model 19 if they were to make them? Or over $1,000 for a blued 586? I don't think I would unless it came with an inspection sheet and a (non-lawyer) tuned combat trigger job.

You mentioned bluing still being done by custom shops and Colt. S&W still does bluing, but it's on a much smaller scale, akin to those custom shops, than when 75% of their guns were blued. Remember too that before a gun is blued it has to undergo considerable hand polishing and buffing to remove machine marks and scratches. That's expensive skilled labor you have to pay for one way or another.

The jury is still out on the 2 piece barrel ,I hear NC DOC has had them seperating in their training division. S&W of course blames the ammo.
I agree that the jury is still out, but have not heard of any separations. Do you have a source for that? By all accounts, the 2-piece barrel should be fine - Dan Wesson used a similar arrangement years ago -- but it's also a question of execution. If there have been problems I'd certainly like to know the details and I'm sure others here would too.

I've already got more than I need ,just not as many as I want.
I made that same statement in early 2004 and lost almost all of mine in a burglary later that year. I hope & pray you never experience the same.

I'm also buying used ones that I've always wanted when I can find them in good shape at a reasonable price. It's not because of the aforementioned changes but more for my preference for the blued guns.

[18DAI]

BillCA - I see where we're going so ,No I have no personal experience with the failure of an Internal Lock ,because A) I would never own ,let alone carry, a handgun with such a device B) None of the people I know, or work with ,who carry guns every day at work, like I do, would own, or carry one either. Now that thats out of the way ,my sources are Erich ,who I beleive posts here as well as S&W forum; his revolver fell from a countertop and locked up. I beleive him. My partner is another source ,he spoke with an Instuctor at the S&W academy, while he was there, who told him the LW snubby's are locking up. One such incident is good enough for me. I took the trigger stops out of my Model 19's & 66's for the chance they would come loose and tie up the gun. If you choose to take the chance, I wish you luck.You seem suprised I would pay $900 + for a "new" 19 or 586 ,I've paid more than that for a good reliable handgun ,don't know what else to tell you there ,you asked. It would seem to me to be a moot point ,S&W is not going to produce anything I could use ,or would buy ,so I'll content myself with LNIB for way less than $1000. Paying for blueing is not a concern either. Finally ,my source for the 2 piece barrel failures is my gunsmith. I'm on a list (with many others) to get a M-65 discard from NC DOC that my smith has bid on. All shipments have been frozen till the situation with the "new" revolvers is finalized. Sorry to hear of the loss of your guns. I hope you are able to rebuild your collection. Regards 18DAI.

[18DAI]

Please Delete ,double post ,computer problems ,thanks.

[Sulaco2]

After counting all the new handguns that Taurus put on for show at SHOT I think I can live without SW. :rolleyes:

[J.D.B.]

I checked out the S&W mega-booth on Friday and met with one of the reps (I can't recall his name right now). I asked wether he ever went out on the net and read, first hand, what people were saying about S&W. I also asked if he even went to their own sponsored forum. He replied no, he hadn't, and really didn't know of any feedback on their guns from the public. I explained that many people were unhappy with the ILS and the way it is incorporated in the guns, as well as the term "pre-lock" coming into vogue when discussing their guns. I let him know that "pre-lock" meant about $100 more on the used S&W market. I asked wether anyone at S&W was aware their ILS may be costing quite a few sales among established S&W customers. He knew nothing of this and didn't believe there was problem with the ILS at all with the public. I gave him a list of forums to check out if he wanted to get some "real world" feedback. Hopefully he or someone else over there will take a look. Maybe they can make a go of it with those neat BBQ's if the guns fall off.......... Well, I tried, anyway. Seems they don't care. I also checked out that AR they're selling. I wonder who's making it for them? Kinda rough as AR's go. I was expecting something a bit more "high-polish", like Rock River, or some of the many AR shops that are well established. All in all, they were kind of a disappointment. The guns have been cheapened down pretty severely and feel like it, too. I thought about all mine and was glad I got them when I did. I guess I shouldn't feel too bad as they are all worth a bit more seeing how there won't be any more like them coming any time soon.
Josh

[orionengnr]

BillCA--
Go to Smith-WessonForum.com, do a search...there a lot more than a "few" documented failures. Several were repeatable. S&W does not recognise or admit to the problem, but it has happened and will happen again. For a range gun, this is an annoyance. For a carry weapon, this is unacceptable.

A number of people have disabled the lock to prevent this happening to them.

Is it just me, or does this thread set the record for double-posts?:rolleyes:

[walt65]

Bitch, bitch, bitch! I'm perfectly happy with my 442, even with that "zitt-like" internal lock that "no doubt" will fail the first time I need to defend myself and family from sure death from an intruder (right). Man! I wish you guys would quit complaining about somethin "new." Buy your old guns. Who cares if they feel like a brick in your pants. I like new, light-weight revolvers that I can carry with no one the wiser. If they have an internal lock, so-be-it. Maybe one less kid will end up shooting his younger brother. I wonder if those of you who hate the internal lock system hated the trigger locks too.

[AK103K]

I have both older and newer Smiths and really have never had any troubles with them, except for a couple of 940's when they first came out. I have a few guns with the lock and have never had any troubles with them either, so far anyways. I shoot mostly +P .38's or pretty hot hand loads out of my 642's and 637 and they havent skipped a beat yet, and I've got a number of rounds through them. I also have a 620 with the sleeved barrel and its been a real good shooter. That seventh round seems to make the timing a little quicker in DA.

Ugly and cute, all at the same time :)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid190/p6d36672c946b8489f720603687b83627/f1f9bc41.jpg

and a little old, and a little new :)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid187/pe69e59ec75c72165ea8e7544f25cfe01/f2438904.jpg

[454c]

It would be nice if they would make the lock an option and let the buyers decide if they want it or not.:cool:

[Candiru]

I think S&W has made some promising steps forward lately with their M21 and M22s and the old-style M29. The best way to encourage forward progress in this regard, although not as fun or easy as ranting on internet forums, is to write good old fashioned letters. These carry so much more weight than a cursory email. And wouldn't it be great if we got more old-fashioned guns due to lobbying by old-fashioned snail mail?

[Socrates]

I don't see much to gripe about. The 360PD is one of the neatest little guns I've scene in a long time.

I was REALLY impressed with their scandium line of 1911's.

While not my cup of tea, the 329PD is another nice carry gun, for heavy 44 special loadings.

The X frames are not for me, but sure seemed to be impressive blocks of steel.

I'd like a high quality 22 revolver, and I'm not sure if any of the new ones are up to the standards of the old, 22's aren't they?

Smith had plenty of blued, nice, 38's for around 400-500 at our local 'show', and I just ran out of money.

s

[shooter429]

As far as the internal locks go, I avoided them at first, thinking "what if it breaks and jams the gun or fails to secure the gun when needed?" I still think they are a stop-gap measure that might increase incidents of unauthorised use due to owner complacency. What I mean is that there is no substitute for safe storage e.g., a good safe. Also, any mechanical defice can fail. But, honestly, I have never seen it happen. Not on Smiths and not even on the POS Taurii that I owned. I have actually dropped them to see wat happened. Guess what-nothing. Even Taurii pass the drop test.

So, though I do not rely on them as a general rule, they do not seem to hurt mechanical functionality or trigger action on the ones that I have sampled. I hate that S&W caved to PC pressures, but most of the companies now have. So, I will not avoid an otherwise desireable gun because it has a lock. I am slowly coming around I guess. Just remember that no amount of built-in technology (in the near future) is going to make guns completely safe from unauthorised users.

Guns guns don't shoot people, the VP does. LOL

I also do not think the increasing use of CNC and non-traditional alloys are bad things. I think guns that are properly hand-fitted can be better, but the costs are much higher. Conversly, the better the technologies get, the more consistent are the final production line products in QC. If I had the money, I would have guns custom-built by hand, but I don't; so I embrace technological advances.

The only negative handling characteristics that I have observed in S&W guns are much heavier triggers. That is not becaus of lower quality, IMHO, but becase of litigation. And again, I have seen many quality guns come out with heavy triggers. In fact, I found a very nice Springfield .45 I was ready to buy. It was black stainless with adjustable NS beveled mag well, lowered ejection port, slimmer grips . I fell in love. Then the dealer snatched it away before I had tried the trigger. I asked to try it and he hesitated. I had just bought a gun from him a couple weeks ago and they know I am not just a looky-loo. I asked him whats up. He finally said that the trigger is clean but heavy. So I tried it. It sure as heck was. My guestimate was a crisp 6 lbs, which is twice what I like.

The bottom line is the guns are being designed with liability lawyers in mind. So what we need to do is drop all the lawyers off the end of a peer and convert everyone else to GOP :)

Okay half-kidding. I just won't say which half. :p

Shooter429

[dogngun]

I recently saw and handled a Jerry Mikulick .45 ACP revolver, the first new Smith I have handled for at least 8 years. I didn't feel right to me. I guess I like the old ones too much to think about buying a new one.

The S&W I'm buying next week is a 1959 .38 Masterpiece target, and nobody, not even S&W, makes anything as good anymore.
My newest Smith is about 22 years old, a 5904 former police pistol.

Mark

[TX_RGR]

The internal lock is much more than an eyesore. It is a sellout. So was the trigger lock. Yet another useless piece of equipment to satisfy the antis that has never been within 100 ft. of any of my guns. Let's not forget the much-publicized mega-sellout of S and W to just bend over for the government and begin research on a gun that worked on biometrics, and would refuse to fire unless the owner was wielding it. That was enough to make certain I would never buy another Smith product ever again. What's next? You guessed it--the weapon that can be disabled by law enforcement, or the government on demand. Boy that's a warm fuzzy kick in the crotch, ain't it? :D The rest of you do whatever you want. I refuse to patronize a company that bows to political pressure and creates weapons that have any chance whatsoever of failure when I need them most. An INTERNAL lock? What is THAT? Because I can't be trusted to lock it myself if I think it is necessary. Now I need someone to FORCE the lock down my throat. Even a .01% chance of a failure with this monstrosity is way too high.

[454c]

Another thought,how many sales has S&W gained because of the lock compared to how many they have lost because of the lock ?

I have NEVER heard a person say they bought a S&W for the lock option.Well,I can't say "option" since on a new S&W, WE DON"T HAVE AN OPTION.On the other hand,I've heard ALOT of people say they will not buy one with the IL.

[TheEgg]

Let me broaden it ,anybody lusting after any revolver they currently produce?

Only one -- the 586 L-Comp.

[Pezo]

I wish smith and wesson would discontinue every present model and refer back to the catalouge of about or at least 10-15 years ago. What originally turned me off of smith and wesson was the PRICE. then the ugly models, last but not least the politically INCORRECT lock mechanism ( why not just tell me I'm too stupid to operate a revolver). Smith does have a good trigger if you find the right one and can deal with the above:rolleyes: . What smith and wesson need's to do is to slowly start reintroducing some older style, refined (no - lock so they can compete with the superior product's from ruger) revolver's and gradually return to a better line-up.

[Pezo]

I will say I do like the higher capacity .357 mag revolver concept, but A good idea executed poorly.

[gdeal]

I would get a S & W but I hate their grips. They have to have the ugliest revolver grips on the market. Other than that I hear they are good guns.