View Full Version : Another Scenario...
February 10, 2006, 08:37 AM
I wasn't there when this happened but this is how it was described to me. No one in the room was carrying but I place myself in the situation over and over and can not figure out a way to avoid either a shoot-out or being shot.
You are in a barbershop/deli/small restaraunt/etc with about 10 other customers and two guys walk in and announce they are robbing the place. However, after taking whatever money is in the register, they commence to circle the room robbing each individual in the establishment. You are carrying CCW and are on the other side of the establishment so you have 2 minutes tops before they get to you. Each person they rob is required to give them all jewelry, cash, their wallet/purse, cell phone, etc and is patted down to make sure the robbers got everything. One customer speaks out about his dis-satisfaction about being robbed and is pistol whipped. You are certain they will find your weapon but uncertain of the consequences. What do you do?
February 10, 2006, 08:45 AM
What would Chuck Norris (http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com) do?
February 10, 2006, 08:57 AM
The chuck norris routine is getting quite old.
Everytime I read something in the tactics forum, that link appears. It serves absolutly no purpose, and IMO, isnt even funny anymore.
February 10, 2006, 09:12 AM
Barber chairs make half way decent cover.
2 bandits divided by eight rounds of .45ACP means I have some left over ammo to carry home with me.
The pistol whipping is the clincher for me. Before that, it was 50/50 whether my life was in jeopardy. After another customer is pistol whipped, the jeopardy is certain. Would I draw and fire prior to the pistol whipping? It would depend on a lot of factors, but yes, if I felt my life was threatened, I would.
FWIW, the man who cuts my hair shot and killed a would be robber about ten years ago. He and the other barber both are likely armed underneath their smocks today. That's another good reason to go to a real Barber Shop with a couple of deer heads on the wall instead of a hair salon with limp wristed Tony mussing your hair up.
February 10, 2006, 10:21 AM
The chuck norris routine is getting quite old.
February 10, 2006, 10:54 AM
Did they show a gun when they came in? And if they didn't why on earth did 10 people comply? :eek:
February 10, 2006, 11:23 AM
I'm with Xavier on this one. After the pistol whipping, the die is cast. At that range, I'm pretty good, providing the targets are clear.
February 10, 2006, 11:32 AM
With all due respect to the thread about people wanting to shoot someone, I say shoot, and shoot with no warning. I'd say try to avoid your shots going through the front window of the barber shop into the street beyond, but I doubt if I would have the presence of mind for the thought to remain in my head more than a millisecond if I were in that situation.
February 10, 2006, 04:41 PM
Thanks for the replies but I have to admit that I would freeze in this situation, however temporary that freeze would be.
I would fear for the other customers in that there are two threats with guns drawn. In the original scenario, one had a pistol and the other had a sawed off shotgun. The one with the pistol worked the room and the other guy stood "guard" near the front. I would probably be unfrozen by the pistol whipping as well but, I would still have the thought that while I MAY be able to shoot the "guard guy" with a head shot before he sees me but I will not be able to shoot the pistol guy with the same "certainty." I then know that shots will be fired until the threat (either him or me) is neutralized.
February 10, 2006, 05:15 PM
why not just replay Samuel L Jackson's role from the last scene of Pulp Fiction. and be sure to give the bg's that big "...and you will know, I am the lord, when i lay my vengance upon thee." quote. you nailed the scene with your scenario. good ol sammy got out with his wallet and life without firing a single shot. what a concept. a person who carries choosing NOT to shoot.
seriously, you're out gunned to begin with, at least 2 to 1. if you are unable to control the situation, dont make a move and be the best witness you can be. if you feel the need to react due to immediate threat to your life, divide and conquer if you can. you're not in an action movie, so dont just expect bg #2 to stand around when you shoot bg #1 (assuming that you somehow got the drop on him). if you intend to come out firing, make sure you have good cover...and dont forget about all the innocent bystanders in your path. They may be greatful that you came to their rescue, but now you've got witnesses who say that YOU fired the FIRST shot. i think compliance is the safest route one could take.
as far as the gun goes....repositioning it discreetly to your crotch would be wise, if possible. unless these guys are real good and feel like taking their time, i would really doubt they are gonna voluntarily grope a few men's neither regions. i could be wrong.
February 10, 2006, 05:21 PM
Hmmm...BG's taking the time to go around and pat down each and every customer during a robbery? In a Deli/Restraunt/Barbershop, with WIDE open windows (have yet to be in any of these establishments that don't have em)? Very brave BG's, I would have to doubt the total truth to this actually happening...any how...I will play.
My answer is easy...give em everything I have. My gun is for protecting my life in a No Way Out situation. If I can run...I will run. If I can hide...I will hide. With others in the room, you might run the risk of shooting one of them...terrible to have to live with, No? You also may elevate the situation by drawing your weapon and firing...a simple robbery now becomes a shootout, with the result of dead and wounded citizens, perhaps one of the BG's decides to start shooting the other patrons. Man, a person had better really think about what he/she is going to elevate this "scenario" into. Also consider if another patron does get shot or worse killed...you may be responsible for elevating the situation unneccesarily and now YOU are responsible for the results...too high a price to pay for the possibility of being a hero on the 5 o'clock news...for a day.
February 10, 2006, 05:21 PM
Seeing you have about 2 minutes (as you said) before the guy comes to you, youd have plenty time to read the situation.
the way i see it (at the moment), the guy at the door is probalbly looking out side, keeping an eye out for cops. he thusly does not pose an immediate threat to the patrons and staff.
the second guy (robbing the customers) is probably not looking at you while he is patting down someone else.
while his gaze is averted, move to cover yourself from the guy at the door, (so he cannot get a clean shot at you once you draw and fire). move very slowly so as not to grab attention. once in cover so that the guy at the door cannot get you, draw and fire at the guy who is posing an immediate threat to the patrons (the guy doing the robbing). the loud bang should confuse the guy at the door, as he should not have seen you draw and fire, and is thusly not prepared for the noise. this is your window of opportunity to take the second guy, as he now will be facing into the store and thus poses a new immediate threat.
i understand that this scenario relies absolutely on getting into cover, and having the customers spread out enough that neither of the BG's can see what you are doing.
it is however purely hypothetical. id try my best to do what i can, but if nothing can be done, nothing can be done.
i just realised this is my first respose to a scenario type post.
crit me please!
February 10, 2006, 05:33 PM
I'd be worried as soon as he sees your weapon (if you didn't take the draw & fire route) that he would fire at you in a panic.
Assuming fear of life threatening injuries/death; I'd only fire if I had a clear shot at #1 and thought I'd still be able to respond to #2 in a reasonable amount of milliseconds. Shot placement on #1 is critical. He will have to go down fast; #2 shot placement is not quite as important as time between the first bang and him hitting the ground. Don't let either get to cover; if they do it is going to be a bad shoot out.
If they look peaceful enough (as in they aren't going to hurt you; having a patron pistol whipped is NOT peaceful to me), try to stash your weapon somewhere when they have their back turned. Retrieve it the moment they leave in case they get the bright idea to quickly return and take out some witnesses.
February 10, 2006, 06:37 PM
in my openion and i could be wrong but to me it seems that in a case and pay attension because i wont say this often cause i hate the things but in this case it would be handy to have something such as a small fit in the palm of your hand .22 or .25 something of that nature maybe a darringer of some type because you can quietly slip it out of your pocket and as the guy walks up to you pop him in the stomach and while the other guy is trying to figure out where it came from you can pop him too. but hey what to i know.
February 10, 2006, 06:53 PM
Crazi, . . .
First things first, . . . I would not be caught alive or dead in one of those type barbershops. Mine is a 2 chair arrangement, . . . glass doors to see any and every one coming in, . . . I do the appointment thing, . . . and show up about 3 or 4 minutes before my appointment. Get the haircut and get out!
If bg's come in, . . . it is right across the street from city PD and city hall.
I don't go to restaurants where I cannot sit on a back wall or in a corner.
Sometimes, . . . like the old judge used to say on the Hee Haw show, . . . when the defendant complained about getting hurt in different places: Well, just stay out of those places.
Paranoid? Scared? Nahhhhh, . . . careful, . . . vigilant, . . . observant, . . . and alive. I just am careful about where I go and where I allow myself to be put in jeapordy, . . . got to be 61+ doing that.
May God bless,
February 10, 2006, 07:26 PM
That sheet the barber snugs up around my neck should cover me slipping my pistol out of my pocket. When I shoot through the sheet, the first guy probably won't know what happened. The second guy sure as heck won't realize what just hapened until its too late for him,too. Damn! I should write movie scripts!:D
February 10, 2006, 08:32 PM
In such a case where I was in a cafe/deli or similar, and the 2 BG's showed up and did their dirty work, I'd wait and observe until an opportunity happened.
At the least I'd unholster and wait until BG #1 got to my table and waved his weapon around before I shot him 2X point blank COM. The table would be my cover for my weapon and I'd almost be touching him when I fired. If the bullet were to pass through the angle would be upward and away from any other patron.
A quick getup and then drop behind cover while BG #2 spends his 2 second reaction time trying to figure out what happened. Since everyone else will be screaming and ducking, my move to cover won't be as noticeable.
At that point I can continue to press the offensive if BG #2 doesn't run away from the scene. I can keep an eye on BG #1 in case he decides to go berserker. If BG #2 runs away, then I'm in a position to disarm #1, visibly secure all weapons, produce my CHL & ID, distance myself from the others and wait for LEO to arrive. First aid will be given only if safety will not be compromised in any way. Otherwise, BG #1 can bleed or suffocate from the ruptured diaphram.
February 10, 2006, 08:49 PM
Triple tap time....no hesitation...no remorse....kill the cockroaches....
February 11, 2006, 12:08 PM
Thanks for all the replies everyone. It happened when I was on my way to said barbershop. I called ahead to secure a plcae in line as its first come first serve. I had been going to this barbershop for at least 15 years at that point.
When I called, the phone picked up and nothing happened. I hung up and called back. The line was busy. I finally got there and that is the story I was told...
February 11, 2006, 01:34 PM
Otherwise, BG #1 can bleed or suffocate from the ruptured diaphram.
During the 30 seconds or more it takes for this to happen what do we expect the BG to do? Peacfully hand over his firearm and read the rosary?
Hes likely to be a bit miffed, yeah?;)
February 11, 2006, 04:11 PM
Ahem, hence forth, No More WWCND or quite frankly frankly even using his name.
Totally not trying to be argumentative. Im still pretty new, could someone explain? Chuck norris?:confused: (not to hijack the thread!!)
February 11, 2006, 04:32 PM
I would start cutting your own hair first of all.
If I was in a similar situation and had to engage, this is my best possible scenario: I would wait until the BG with the handgun got real close to me (searching the dude next to me), then put several well placed close range shots into him. As he was falling/leaning/whatever, I would use him as cover while quickly engaging the BG with the shotgun.
February 11, 2006, 05:04 PM
Totally not trying to be argumentative. Im still pretty new, could someone explain? Chuck norris? (not to hijack the thread!!)
One Member posted a link to a "What would Chuck Norris do?" site that was funny.... the first time. 2nd time was half funny; 3rd time not so funny, and by the 5th or 6th (don't know, lost count :rolleyes: ).... well, you get the picture ;) .
February 11, 2006, 05:58 PM
Another what would you do thread. Seems we have a large # of people just itching to be in a gun battle. Well my hats off to you and my suggestion is join one of our branches of the armed forces. Free training, free ammo, free firearms, and if your lucky enough you may wind up in the middle east with plenty of targets available to you. Only bad point is the enemy shoots back. Get a life.:cool:
February 11, 2006, 06:32 PM
One Member posted a link to a "What would Chuck Norris do?" site that was funny.... the first time. 2nd time was half funny; 3rd time not so funny, and by the 5th or 6th (don't know, lost count ).... well, you get the picture .
Ah. Roger that. First time Id seen it. Thanks Capt.
February 11, 2006, 10:42 PM
A patron got pistolwhiped, that means 2 things are facts, one, at least one BG is armed (odds are then all are carrying) and two, there are bystanders around.
READ MY LIPS - That is exactly the situation where you don't want to get in a shootout! PERIOD.
WORST CASE SCENARIO is the smart thing always in this situations.
Seems that everyone behind a computer is some dead shot battle scarred killer to whom the word flinching is not part of their vocabulary. This ain't Nintendo or XBOX, extra lives are not available neither to you or the other barbershop patrons.
I'll repeat myself, trained LEO's that have a 95% accuracy rate at the range on average drop that accuracy to 15% in situations where "real" gunplay is involved.
LEOS are folks that most probably like many here will never have to use a gun for real but that are trained to do so and that day in and day out are out there dealing with a lot of unwelcomed situations that have to count for something WTSHTF.
Any working LEO, even if all he does is deal with domestic issues has a thicker skin that all of us cyber Rambos! Again 15%. that makes those nice 10 yard 3-5" groups (be real for once) on a non moving target become a 20-30" foray of shots and the target not only moves, it shoots back!
You are in a public place with innocent bystanders around, that's collateral damage that means nothing to the BG's but that should matter to you more that getting the opportunity to play hero.
They are not raping your wife/child, all they want is your money, not all of it, just what you have on you at the moment, so they pistolwhip some idiot that argues with an armed BG, face it, he asked for it. Some Tiger Balm will cure that and he can latter, if you keep your cool, "tell it" his way to the grandchildren.
You have 2 minutes, first hide gun/extra magazines in a place where it will be available just in case there's no choice, like they start to shoot up everyone for no reason, also so it will not end in the hands of a criminal and lastly so they won't think I am a LEO in plain clothes.
When they come to me I very nicely hand them the cash. Another good idea is to hide car/house keys. If I had the time I hide also the credit cards and if they insist on them I give them just the one that is a debit card used for online purchases so it is always kept with very little cash in case of identity theft.
Being prepared pays.
Make sure to take a good look at them so you can give the LEOS a good description.
So you have another point of reference on how idiotic it would be to go blasting away read on, there's a local 4 day advanced defense course given here, most of the guys that take this course are the very advanced shooters, exactly those guys you see always at the range and wish you could shoot that well.
One of the exercises given there to make evident how hard it is to actually hit something under duress is as follows, the instructor puts all but one of the students on a room that leads to a open area, 40 feet form this room's door a clear and unobstructed static 4 x 5 FEET target is placed.
We all can hit a static 4x5 FEET target 40 feet away with 5 rounds on our favorite handgun right?
Don't be so sure, the leftout student is also out there safely to the side, also 40 feet away but he is not in harm's way and armed with a paintball gun, you exit the room and try to hit the 4x5 FEET target before you get nailed with the paintball, ocassionally and not on every class one of this very good shooters nails the 4x5 FEET but always after getting hit with the painball and never on the first round, this not on harms way of a real bullet but in harm's way of a paintball round, they say they sting a bit but do not kill.
So keep your cool, no bragging rights will be earned but you will not only save your life and the life of the other innocent bystanders around but if you where luckly to survive and prevail you will also save a lot of money on law fee's and headaches plus time lost from work and loved ones because BG's relatives will sue you big time, sleazy lawyers will line up to make your life on their behalf a living hell, your gun will be taken as evidence, that could be a long time and then, this is rare but also possible, you get to watch your back 24/7 for the BG's friends and relatives that might want some payback and will just shoot you or worst a loved one in the back.
Of course as pointed before if they start to clean up to leave no witnesses, or if some terrorist/s (local ones or the imported kind) go for it within shooting distance then blast away, you probably will still get killed but at least you'll take some of them with you. ey maybe it will be your luckiest day and you will make it to the emergency room in time.
Yes the 15% applies to BGS too but they have the advantage, there are more of them and they don't care who is in their way and maybe they do have some actual previous practice shooting other BGS or getting shot at.
Someone other than them is going to get shot and this can include you in case you don't care for others. There are times where you got to shoot your way out but some cash lost + some idiot getting pistolwhiped is not one in my book.
What was that accuracy percentage again?
February 12, 2006, 12:19 PM
Outstanding Sir, We would all do well to consider heavily the info he brought up. Heavily!
Really, were talking bulletes here, the ones that fly through the air and remove chunks of you if they touch you, this is not the matrix, none of us are dirty Harry, and collateral lives are more important than living out some fantasy. Chances are more than high that if you draw a gun against a gun..........read: ONE gun!!.......You are going to get shot all to hell, much less drawing against two.
Think: What would I do if I DIDNT have my weapon, and try that first! When all else fails and you KNOW you or yours are going to DIE or be maimed, then theres nothing to lose and everything to gain. Then Fight, and fight viciously!
Most likely when its time to use a weapon, there will be no other course of action to consider. It will be Die or Kill, Maybe both, But better to fight.
Ill get off my soapbox now:D Starting to feel like the student trying to tell a roomfull of teachers how it is. Im no Seal/Ninja/Ranger/Sniper. Just thinking out loud. (usually how I get in trouble!!:) )
February 12, 2006, 12:59 PM
I would normally take the conservative approach.
The problem is, with the pat downs, your weapon will be surrendered if you do not use it. After one patron has been pistol whipped, a disregard for life has been demonstrated. When a gun is discovered on your person, you can be sure the BGs will focus in on you and probably kill you. You can at the least expect life altering injury.
As I stated, in my barber shop, I can be certain of at least one other armed friendly, possibly more. I know at least one other person will quickly be shooting. The scenerio presented has two BGs. In my barber shop, that evens the odds to one on one, possibly three on two or even better odds if one of the local cops happens to be waiting for his haircut.
Perhaps I made the mistake of imagining this scenerio in my own barber shop, but that's the way I see it. I am darned near certain that if this occured where I get my hair cut, I would not be the only armed citizen responding.
February 12, 2006, 01:03 PM
Everybody in the barber shop has chosen his way of life. The BGs are willing to kill to get money. The patrons either carry or they don't. What each is willing to do depends on the opertunity of the circumstances. Good people look for the opertunity to do what comes their way.
You get into trouble and you know nothing of self defense then you made the decision to go unarmed and so the circumstances are your choice, you made it. The criminals on the street that need drugs and will kill you to get them, we as a society make the choice and we live with it.
Young punks have no fear cause they have nothing to lose. Old guys have no fear because they have had as much as their going too. It's a society thing and when you recognize the people that cause trouble you should carry yourself in a manner to deal with it. Will you win? Good guys lose too.
Make yourself research all you can about defense. Know the risk of each weapon they carry and what the best defense is against the attack. A well rounded approach is needed in guns and martial arts along with the study of people and how they react to violence. Learn tricks that you will win with and above all pay attention to your surroundings. Test yourself and your courage all the time and you will build courage or know your limitations.
What you or I say we would do means nothing without the training to back it up. Training gives you options, if your too lazy to train and don't want to fight back then just go with the flow:D :cool:
February 12, 2006, 11:50 PM
Seems you just refuse to get it, I certainly hope you are just another that just fantazises about being the big hero.
By all means you don''t want your gun to be found, if only so it will not end in the hands of a criminal, If you have ime to pull it out to shoot you probably have time to pull it out and hide it.
There's a friendly to back you up, have you seen this person shoot before, and not at the range but in a life-death situation. Have you at least some indication this guy can deliver the goods?
Is this by any chance some older gentlemant with a snubby 38 in his pocket, 20 year old bullets very nice man but blind beyond 10 feet?
Some guy got pistolwipped, again they are not raping yoru wife, it is just about money.
This are just an excuses to justify your fantasy...
As someone here pointed out, you fight when in ultimate harm's way and as another also pointed out, if yo have such a hankerin' to shoot it up join the Armed Forces or the Police Department. But don't put someone's dad, brother, daughter in the path of one of a bullet just cause you got a CCW and shoot at paper at the range.
Stop fantazising, turn the computer off and try this, go to IPSC matches, hell, join in, then after qualifying, blast away at 30+ targets in seconds and realize that one, every shot you miss could cost you your life or someone elses, two, any shot you fire could hit someone else and not necesarily a BG and thirdly, every shot you fire will be returned 1, 2, 3 times back at you.
It takes seconds in a shootout to fire tens, probably even hundreds of shots depending on the amount of shooters involved, pretending that all of the ones that will nail the intended target will be yours and your shooting pals and that all the ones shot by the BGS will miss everyone else is moronic. Sorry but I cannot find another word for it.
February 12, 2006, 11:57 PM
Since you decided to address me directly, I will address you directly. You do not know me. I do not know you. I respect your opinion. I do not expect you to respect mine, but I do expect you to respect me. Personal attacks are prohibited here.
Have a nice day reflecting on that. Sometimes the best route is to agree to disagree.
February 13, 2006, 06:36 AM
Tough sitrep! Having time to think about it I would fake a heart attack, trying to pose a situation they havnt prepared for, hopefully causing intrest in me and away from the patrons. If they both investigate they are both in close range, and unprepared for shots to come from an otherwise helpless person doubled over on the floor. Just an idea....
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