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View Full Version : A Not-so hypothetical question.


Chris Phelps
February 9, 2006, 02:31 PM
I am sure everyone here has figured out that I have an overactive imagination and run through different scenerios pretty much all day long. Well here is another one... one that hits a bit closer to home for me.


I just took on a bank route (I am an independent courier, among other things). I don't know what I carry, but that really isn't the issue anyway.

My route is after-hours. I am given a key to the banks. I drop off an empty bag and pick up a full bag at each bank... between 6 and 8 banks a night. Last night I rode with the guy who has been doing one of these bank routes (not the one I usually do... but the one I am switching to). I noticed last night that if someone wanted to get into the bank, all they would have to do is wait for me to unlock the door, then push through behind me. I would become a potential hostage in a bank robbery which would more than likely go unnoticed for quite some time.

Now... I don't currently CCW for a number of reasons. 1) my day job is sorting mail in the Federal building. 2) Nothing really ever happens around here, so the need just is not there. In light of the number of scenerios I was running through in my head last night, I am seriously considering CCW while I am doing the bank route. I haven't checked yet, but I don't believe there are laws against CCW in banks in my state, so that definitly is not an issue.


We have had a couple of bank heists lately, but so far all of them are during the day, and they are really dumb criminals... (one of them tried to flee the scene in a 84 rusted out truck with a plow on the front and not running right.)

Given the facts... do you think I am just being paranoid, or is there potential for a situation to arise which would justify a CCW?

Dan M.
February 9, 2006, 02:55 PM
Justified.

Derius_T
February 9, 2006, 03:12 PM
If it is legal to carry in that situation, I would. You make kind of an easy mark in that instance. Although you would not be jutified in, or required to defend the money, if your live became threatened, it would be nice to have an out. Check both state and company laws, and go from there....

invention_45
February 9, 2006, 04:25 PM
Let's say I'm a crook. I'm scoping out an area or areas to see what I can get into, and I see you somehow open banks that are locked. You go in with an empty bag; come out with it full.

No matter what is actually in the bag, unless I have special inside information otherwise, I'm going to think it's MONEY.

Remember I'm a criminal. I only care about that MONEY, not what I have to destroy to get it. You are just some inconveniently placed meat that's in my way.

I'd carry if I were you and could.

SBrocker8
February 9, 2006, 04:35 PM
This courier job sounds pretty sweet. I would say that if you can, carry. As was already said, you have no justification in defending the money, but we've all heard stories of where criminals do away with the witness out of sheer convenience. Granted, carrying will not make you 100% safe, but it gives you options.

James K
February 9, 2006, 04:58 PM
I suppose some kid might think you are carrying money, but the pros know that that kind of transfer involves only non-negotiable paper. Money is transferred by armored car with armed guards. They also know that a closed bank has no cash lying around unless the head teller forgot his wallet.

A gun might make you feel better, but I wouldn't sweat it too much. How often has the old guy on the route been held up? My guess would be never.

Jim

Chris Phelps
February 9, 2006, 09:53 PM
Check both state and company laws, and go from there....


I will definitly have to check state laws, but the company has nothing against it. A number of people who deliver for this company carry weapons.


A gun might make you feel better, but I wouldn't sweat it too much. How often has the old guy on the route been held up? My guess would be never.

We had a route driver last year that, while on a Kodak film delivery route, was kidnapped at gun point, taken about 20 miles out of town, then dumped near a river pretty beaten up, and his car was stolen. This is a very real fear.



I suppose some kid might think you are carrying money, but the pros know that that kind of transfer involves only non-negotiable paper.

What I am carrying is not an issue. The fact of the matter is, I have the key to the bank. When I do my pickup... for about 10 seconds, that door is unlocked and the bank is empty with the exception of me. The only thing missing is the welcome mat and the open vault. Sure, I carry void checks and the actual paperwork... no money at all... but the fact that I am INSIDE the bank for 10 seconds is a scary thought when all the BG would have to do is be there at the right time and push me through the door once I have turned the key. I am quite cautious, but lets face it... if they want in, they are comming in!

Dwight55
February 9, 2006, 10:11 PM
Chris, . . .

I used to work for a bank, . . . Jim Keenan gave you the real deal. It's paper that is only valuable to banks and the like, . . . and is virtually all replaceable.

If you do decide to carry, . . . be sure you get a rig that is indeed "concealed", . . . otherwise, . . . your weapon may be the point of the whole robbery.

I know bg's usually are borderline dumb if not stupid, . . . but many of them can spot a mark faster than you can spot a Mickey Dee's when you are hungry.

May God bless,
Dwight

Doug.38PR
February 9, 2006, 11:13 PM
I am sure everyone here has figured out that I have an overactive imagination and run through different scenerios pretty much all day long

Don't worry you've got good company ;) Some of my senarios are completely off the wall. An overactive imagination is a healthy thing and I'm willing to entertain it no matter how far fetched just for fun :)


I don't think you're being paranoid, just thoughtful (like I said, an overactive imagination can be a healthy thing) While what you say is not likely to happen, it's not impossible. I don't think the average policeman ever has to use his gun except at the range. Getting a CHL is a good idea in any case. You never know when you might need it wherever you are or wherever you go even thought in all likelyhood you will never need it.

With what you describe having bank robberies in the area going on, it increases your chances of having to use it and it gives a legitimate argument for getting a chl (even though it is more likely nothing will happen)

We got my mother a handgun to keep when there were a lot of kick in robberies in Houston on the West side a couple of years ago and our cars had been broken into around the same time.

Go ahead and get the CHL. It won't hurt you and it may very well help you.

invention_45
February 10, 2006, 07:26 AM
I'm a little worried about the remarks that a pro knows it's nothing of value (even a non-banking guy like me knows the bank won't casually handle valuables by giving them to a presumably unarmed and unarmored courier).

But some criminals, though not all, are indeed stupid. And some don't work because they are NUTS and can't hold a job. They don't think like you and me. And yes, most who would assume you have something of value would be kids, whether smart or stupid, with little experience to know better.

A kid can kill you just like an adult can. The impulsiveness that a kid's more likely to have could be argued to be even more dangerous in that situation.

It's not what's in the bag or in the bank. It's what the crook THINKS is in them that creates the risk.

Carry if you can.

Chris Phelps
February 10, 2006, 08:53 AM
Chris, . . .

I used to work for a bank, . . . Jim Keenan gave you the real deal. It's paper that is only valuable to banks and the like, . . . and is virtually all replaceable.


(even a non-banking guy like me knows the bank won't casually handle valuables by giving them to a presumably unarmed and unarmored courier).




I will say this ONE MORE TIME for those who didn't read it the first time.


forget the damn bag I am carrying. Its not a target. Its not valuable. NOONE is worried about it.

What worries me is the fact that I am standing there with the fking bank door OPEN. The bag does NOT even enter into the equation!!!

TooTall
February 10, 2006, 10:48 AM
You said that it's a "route". To me, that means that you have a "routine" way of driving to bank #1, #2, #3, etc. Also, you probably go to bank #1 first, and to bank #2 after that. Do you HAVE to do that?

Your "route" might also have you at bank #1 at, say, 10:00 p.m. every night. Can't you vary your time schedule?

It also sounds like you pull up in front of bank #1, get out of your car, unlock the door, enter, drop off the empty bag, pick up filled bag, then exit the bank and lock the door behind you. Do you HAVE to immediately go to the bank door? Do you HAVE to park in front of the bank?

When you get out of your car, the empty bank bag LOOKS like a "bank bag" of some sort. Can't you place that bag inside of a common grocery store paper bag? Perhaps a back-pack?

Hey, if I had your job, I would definitely vary my route to the banks, and shift around bank #1 to being bank #7 from time-to-time. If my route started at, say, 10:00 p.m. every night, I'd delay it every once in awhile, to start at 11:00 p.m., or at an earlier hour.

I wouldn't park in front of the banks all the time. For that matter, I'd probably park and just sit for awhile, to observe what is going on in the parking lot and near the bank. If something looked wrong, it would be easy to pull out of the parking lot and go to, say, bank #4....then return to that bank later on.

How about parking in the parking lot of a nearby convenience store, and buying a cup of coffee before walking over to the bank? If something looks wrong when you make the approach, turn around and return to your car.

VARY your "route" times, the "route" you use to get to the banks, and VARY which bank you make your first stop. HIDE the bank bag by placing it inside of something else. VARY your parking spot, even if it might make you walk a bit further. Sit in your car for awhile before going into the banks, and observe what is going on nearby. Your car might end up being a "get-away" vehicle!

You might be able to "justify" your NEED to have a CCW permit, but by exercising your situational awareness and using common sense, you could probably work that job for many, many years without any problem.

Chris Phelps
February 10, 2006, 12:31 PM
You said that it's a "route". To me, that means that you have a "routine" way of driving to bank #1, #2, #3, etc. Also, you probably go to bank #1 first, and to bank #2 after that. Do you HAVE to do that?

Yes, the route has to stay the same. Often times, I will be picking up a box of papers that I have to take to the bank up the road.



Your "route" might also have you at bank #1 at, say, 10:00 p.m. every night. Can't you vary your time schedule?

Yes, I have to stay on schedule. No way of avoiding that.




When you get out of your car, the empty bank bag LOOKS like a "bank bag" of some sort. Can't you place that bag inside of a common grocery store paper bag? Perhaps a back-pack?

That is a good idea, but I'm not sure how well it will work... these bags are fairly big.



Hey, if I had your job, I would definitely vary my route to the banks, and shift around bank #1 to being bank #7 from time-to-time. If my route started at, say, 10:00 p.m. every night, I'd delay it every once in awhile, to start at 11:00 p.m., or at an earlier hour.

If I left earlier, I would be sitting at the first bank for an hour waiting for the bag to appear. If I delayed, I would be fired.


I wouldn't park in front of the banks all the time. For that matter, I'd probably park and just sit for awhile, to observe what is going on in the parking lot and near the bank.

I usually circle the bank before picking up, but the bag is always left in the same place, and the key only fits the front door. If I didnt park right in front of the bank, I would have to walk acrossed the parking lot.


How about parking in the parking lot of a nearby convenience store, and buying a cup of coffee before walking over to the bank? If something looks wrong when you make the approach, turn around and return to your car.

only two of these banks have buildings within sight of them. Welcome to maine. :rolleyes:

VARY your "route" times, the "route" you use to get to the banks, and VARY which bank you make your first stop.

Again.. can you say "fired" ?


You might be able to "justify" your NEED to have a CCW permit, but by exercising your situational awareness and using common sense, you could probably work that job for many, many years without any problem.


Situational awareness will bring me one step closer to absolutely safe... but the end goal will NEVER be reached, as you know.

Runsalone
February 10, 2006, 03:52 PM
In either case, I would wait for them to get within arms reach of me, grab the wrist of the hand holding the knife, pull it in the direction they were running, then quickly snap it back, effectivly taking their feet out from under them and landing them on their back, I would then quickly twist in the downward direction of their arm, while pulling up to roll their body over... then I would put my knee in their back, lock their elbow in a position in which it was impossible for them to move, and proceed to yell for someone to call the police.






Just my .02, and more than likely a bad place to mention this, BUT... I think CCW's have allowed people to slack off in their hand to hand combat skills. Too many people are eager to shoot someone in these situations.


:confused:

Chris Phelps
February 10, 2006, 07:53 PM
lol point taken.

CraigJS
February 10, 2006, 08:25 PM
I hope the BG's knife fighting skills aren't up to your hand to hand combat skills. If so, YOUR going to get cut! Maybe a little, maybe a whole lot... H to H with a knife fighter is a LAST resort. If you can, you need to start your defence WAY before you can smell his breath...

LICCW
February 10, 2006, 10:38 PM
I don't care what's in the bags. Carry, man, carry. Better to be armed and not need it than unarmed and need it.

DBOUNCE1
February 14, 2006, 04:30 PM
I vote, you should carry

CyberSEAL
February 14, 2006, 04:35 PM
If it were me I'd choose to carry and I'd wear a vest.

nscale
February 14, 2006, 04:58 PM
It doesnt take an overactive imagination to realize the danger of your job. Sounds like a real concern to me.

Right again about bg's being dumb, high, stoned and stupid. From thier eyes you are an easy target with the key to Fort Knox. Lets play this scenerio out a little further. Lets suppose you get a smart bad guy, who decides to follow you around for a night and make a visit to your house to pick up the keys. Then What?

Get a gun, carry it and if you want to be a nice guy, you can give one verbal warning before you shoot.

firestorm9mm
February 16, 2006, 11:55 PM
nscale +1

Chris Phelps
February 17, 2006, 08:49 AM
Lets play this scenerio out a little further. Lets suppose you get a smart bad guy, who decides to follow you around for a night and make a visit to your house to pick up the keys. Then What?


Then they could watch me dropping the key and my paperwork off at the office before going home. :D I'm not dumb enough to take the keys home with me. That is the one thing I can avoid!





The people I work with don't make life any easier. (I am 1 of 4 drivers doing this same bank route... just different areas.)

Just last night I show up at my first stop where I pick up all of the empty bags that I switch out at the banks... Walk up to the door. Low and behold, a bank key hanging from the door. I check the tag... that route driver was supposed to be out of the bank 20 minutes ago... and he was! So, I call the office and ask them what they would like me to do with his key, since he has to return for it in order to do his run.

Imagine that... A Key that opens the front door to every branch of this particular bank... and its just hanging in the door, 20 feet away from the main road.



My overactive imagination immediatly kicked into high gear, as it always does, and here is what I came up with.


The New Twist (part 2)


What if someone gets ahold of a key that is not mine, and makes a quick stop at one of the banks on my route, only to discover he still cant get into the vault. While he is in there, I show up... Of course nothing is going to be out of place... The BG isnt entirely stupid, he locked the door behind him. No vehicles in sight, nothing out of the ordinary. So I turn the key, push open the door, reach for my bag sitting on the chair next to the door only to realize I have just suprised the BG who is standing a mere 15 feet away from me, and could be armed!

SBrocker8
February 17, 2006, 12:26 PM
Hence why it wouldn't be a bad idea to carry. Remember, dude, most people carry because of what COULD happen, not what routinely DOES...

TBT
February 17, 2006, 12:56 PM
A gun might make you feel better, but I wouldn't sweat it too much.

:confused:

Not that he is in mortal danger, but he is in more danger than most of us. I carry when I go to Kmart for a pack of big red. I don't leave the house without a gun. I'd be damn sure to carry a gun if I was entering banks after hours on a schedule. If I wasn't allowed to carry, I would find a new job.

As pointed out, what is in the bag doesn't mean anything. For one, criminals are stupid. You don't need only fear the pros but the hard up crack heads that have no idea what they are doing. Maybe a pro knows his mark but a strung out junkie that needs money quick is gonna see the bag and see dollar signs. Simple as that.

And as he said gaining access to the bank is probably the main conern anyway.

Chris Phelps
February 17, 2006, 01:11 PM
Pro's don't concern me nearly as much than jim-bob billy-joe down the road who needs money for beer.

A pro will know exactly what they are after and how to get it. In a situation like this, usually no one gets hurt. Jim-bob billy-joe, on the other hand, would panic and open fire the second he entered the bank.


Remember, dude, most people carry because of what COULD happen, not what routinely DOES...


Well put. I definitly wouldn't keep my job if bad things routinely happened... especially for the crap pay I get.

Don P
February 18, 2006, 10:05 PM
:rolleyes: Here we go again. Some people need to get a life. Time to go.:(

TBT
February 18, 2006, 10:59 PM
Who are you refering to? Why?

Ian2005
February 20, 2006, 12:31 PM
I say it's even silly to wonder.. yes carry a weapon!! The other poster who summed it up about you being the meat hit it perfectly. Hmmm your coming out of a bank at night with a large bag of cash.. hmm (I'm ROLFing btw).
Yes your a f'in target. Even if "the rules" say no, Duhh... I'll take the fine & or imprisonment over death.

As the cops say, "Rather judged by 12 than carried by 6."


Now go get a gun meat!

Mikeyboy
February 20, 2006, 01:07 PM
When I was in college I worked for one of these big overnight delivery services and one of my stops was a diamond broker. You walked in the place, and you all you saw was a small room and a receptionist window surrounded by some thick, thick glass. Anyway most of the time it was regular letter packages, but ever once in a while you got a small brick package and you needed to fill out insurance coverage paperwork, so you get a hint of what might be inside. Regardless to say that was a long, nervous, walk back to the truck. Of course we were not allowed to pack a weapon due to company policy (fired if caught), and sure enough at least two drivers were robbed, one at gun point, when coming out of that building, in the one year span that I worked there. Thankfully, no one got killed, but one guy got sent to the hospital after getting wacked with a pipe in the head for not handing over the package (containing nothing of value) fast enough. If you have the option, I would carry. You could be carrying nothing of value , but the BG could think you carry million, or that you have access to the vault.

p.s. While it is nice to have Hand to Hand combat skills, never rely soley on them to get you out of every jam. If a BG or a group of BGs decide to come into the bank while you have the door open, they will bring more than a knife, and even if you were Bruce Lee, you will be S.O.O.L

junglebob
February 20, 2006, 02:07 PM
Chris, If I had your job I'd definately carry. I would think you'd be a likely target for some BG. Fortunately for you your state is "shall issue" so I wouldn't think there would be a problem for you to get a permit. You can look up information about it at packing.org. They mention that open carry is legal in Maine, so you might consider that. Only problem with that is you need a permit to open carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle. I guess you could open carry an automatic and have a loaded magazine on you. IANAL but in Illinois you can carry a loaded magazine next to a handgun in a case or on your person so that might work in Maine. I think it would be much, much preferable to get the permit, it might save your life.

I carry out of state on a non-resident Pennsylvania handgun license, as Illinois is a "right denied" state. I don't live in a high crime area either, but I wouldn't bet something will never happen.

nscale
February 20, 2006, 02:23 PM
Chris,

It is good you don't have to take the keys home. But I wonder if the BG would know that? Actually, whether you have the keys on you or not is like whether there is money in the bag. It doesnt matter.
Hey I wasn't implying you are dumb :D I think you know what I meant. right?

Now the people you are working with I might consider Dumb. Like the one that leaves keys in doors.

Chris Phelps
February 21, 2006, 01:47 PM
Here we go again. Some people need to get a life. Time to go.


Do people like you feel better after putting other people down? Does it make you feel more important or knowledgeble? Do you sleep better at night knowing you can insult other people while hiding behind a keyboard? Do you feel special knowing you are an internet badass?


You are right. some people DO need to get a life. Good riddance.