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Sir William
February 8, 2006, 11:15 PM
I had a STRESSFUL day. I took my 80 y/o mother out for lunch at a coffee shop. We were working the daily crossword puzzle. Five pre-teens entered and basically raised as much cain as possible. They were rude, crude and lewd in manner, actions and using profane language. A couple of the group opened a fire exit door setting off the alarm, a second later they were stealing silverware off of the counter and then cursed at the shop manager. An off duty grill cook then told the group of 5 to leave and escorted them to the front door. At my back as they were leaving, one idiot says; "I have a gun!" He then stuck his hand inside his baggy pants! I was with my mother and didn't want to get involved in the incident as I was armed legally. I was shocked to see the manager calling the owner on his cellphone INSTEAD of 911! I felt the situation was mishandled. I went back later and requested a company incident report to complain about the fear for my and my mothers' safety. NO weapon was displayed by the party of five or by me. What Would You Do?

thatguyjosh
February 8, 2006, 11:24 PM
shoot them all then send a letter to their parents to let them know how badly they failed at raising their kids.

BobK
February 8, 2006, 11:45 PM
You were correct in minding your own business. I also would have confronted then coffee shop manager. I might have even called 911 myself. IMHO, the only mistake you made was having your back to the front door. I always sit facing the front door constantly watching it and I sit close to an emergency exit.

Twycross
February 9, 2006, 12:08 AM
What would I do? The same thing that you did. No physical threat shown, no counter-threat required.

#18indycolts
February 9, 2006, 12:20 AM
good call on your part. I might have called 911 if they (the kids) got out of hand. But, I am an advocate for not abusing the 911 system, call help if you need it. In your case you didn't (thank god), you had your piece and all ended ok. But again, I wasn't there, I'm only speaking from how I read it.

Double Naught Spy
February 9, 2006, 12:46 AM
An off duty grill cook then told the group of 5 to leave and escorted them to the front door. At my back as they were leaving, one idiot says; "I have a gun!" He then stuck his hand inside his baggy pants! I was with my mother and didn't want to get involved in the incident as I was armed legally. I was shocked to see the manager calling the owner on his cellphone INSTEAD of 911! I felt the situation was mishandled. I went back later and requested a company incident report to complain about the fear for my and my mothers' safety. NO weapon was displayed by the party of five or by me. What Would You Do?

You didn't want to get involved because you were armed legally and with your mother? Surely you mean that you could have gotten involved with your legally carried gun but didn't because mom was with you.

So the manager was calling the owner instead of 911. Do you think 911 would have been helpful? Sure, the sooner called the sooner help might arrive, but help would arrive long after anything happened. So regardless of who was called, your immediate safety would not have changed either way by the call.

How do you know another employee had not been instructed to call 911 from another phone?

So what wasn't handled properly? I take it you mean what happened after the gun claim? Everything before that seemed okay.

So all the hoodlums were preteens? That would give the impression of a lack of a significant threat until the comment about the gun. At that point, everything changed.

Whether or not you wanted to get your mother involved is moot. She was involved. At the time the kid claimed to have a gun and made a furtive move by putting his hand in his pants, everyone present was involved.

I was at a gun show late last year when there was an ND. I was really surprised by how all these situationally aware gun people simply stopped in their tracks and looked in the direction of the gunshot. A few folks like me ducked down, but otherwise we pretty much remained stupidly in place. If one gunshot isn't enough to get a defensive reaction out of gun folks, then I wonder what it takes for them to determine that their lives may be in peril.

So you heard the kid claim he had a gun and made a furtive move. At that time, you did not draw your own gun. Did you take your mother down to the ground, shield her, or try to get her moving in the opposite direction away from the threat? If you were truly concerned about y'all's safety, then I can't imagine why you didn't do anything to protect yourselves. You would have been in your right to draw in reaction to the threat.

No doubt the manager calling the owner did not seem prudent, but then again, taking absolutely no action to protect yourself or your mother from a threat when you had the means (move to floor behind furniture/tables, move away from threat, draw gun) to do so isn't a good response. Between you and the manager making a phone call, you were the only one in position to actually work to provide safety for your mother and yourself at that moment...and yet you filed a complaint on the manager.

So just how blatant does the threat have to be before you will actually take steps to mitigate the threat?

BillCA
February 9, 2006, 01:00 AM
Geez...
No doubt these little darlings have parents who will try to sue the fanny off anyone who lays a hand on their kids, no matter how badly they're behaving.

I think the more important question is what would have happened if that kid had "flashed" some kind of gun in his baggy pants. Perhaps the end result could be called "evolution in action".

Sir William
February 9, 2006, 01:58 AM
I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child. Really. These were pre-teens, I was offended and angered by their actions and behaviour but, I kept recalling the words of the Washington mall CCWer who was shot down. I did place my hand on the butt of my Walther when the one unknown child said he had a gun. If he had begun drawing a Gamo pistol, I don't honestly KNOW? I requested that the owner of the coffee shop pull and review the video camera footage, I did obtain a incident report form and I am thinking of filing a beef against the shop manager inside it for non-action, inappropriate action and failure to provide a safe environment for the customers. I know that everybody cannot be a Marine but, poor ACTION is better than NOTHING. I will fill out the incident report form and see what occurs. It DID take selfcontrol to simply NOT crush the little maggots, pardon my french.

RsqVet
February 9, 2006, 04:05 AM
The only thing I would have done diffirent is reporting the gun threat to the PD via 911 as from what you describe they were probibly on foot and could be rounded up pretty easily, I don't give a dam what the mannager or cook says or wants to do, If I'm there and can hear it I'm a witnessed and I'm threatened as as well. At the very liest having that situation play out with a PD investigation of the little darlings will at liest hopefully wake up their parents, if indeed the kid does have a gun you may have saved someone's life, if it's a cap gun, BB gun or some such then you may well have saved the dumb butt kid's life.

Nortonics
February 9, 2006, 06:57 AM
No disrespect intended, but when I hear or read a statement like this:

If he had begun drawing a Gamo pistol, I don't honestly KNOW?

I'd suggest more training on your behalf. Anyone who carries should never be asking themselves something like this, especially in the heat of the moment - you need to know what you would do, and actually do it.

XavierBreath
February 9, 2006, 07:56 AM
The unknown factor bit both Brendan McKown and Sir William in the rear. These situations are difficult to prepare for, because of that factor. At the range you KNOW the appropriate response is to shoot. At worst, if you shoot inappropriately at the range, you just pierce a target.

If you shoot inappropriately in a real scenerio, you do prison time. The difference is huge. It's big enough to create self doubt where you believed there was none. How many times have you heard somebody say "I couldn't believe what I was seeing"? Acute denial is a powerful defense mechanism of our psyche. If you are not acclimated to seeing people pulling guns and blasting holes into other people, chances are you will be in disbelief for a bit if it happens near you. The best way to train against this is force on force training. Next might actually be a video game of CCWtype scenerios. Hey, if computer simulation works for cops, soldiers, and murdering thugs, why not CCW holders?

Getting back to your scenerio SW, you did fine, everyone went home. You might want to consider a carry mode that allows you to discretely have your hand on a gun while observing the actions of others. I doubt if any complaints to the managers/owners will have any effect on future behavior, but you can try if you like.

Thank goodness your mother did not go all ninja on them.

invention_45
February 9, 2006, 08:09 AM
00Spy:

Wow, you're rough on him.

I think I'd have tried to make sure my .45 was nice and loose in my holster in as subtle a way as possible the moment I saw the trouble, even before the gun was mentioned. That would minimize my response time and allow me to wait longer before being forced to respond.

But, had I been sitting with my back to the door, it would have to be some kind of serious threat to me before I responded.

Yes, it was a mistake to sit with your back to the door, I'll agree with that. I have a stalker, so I NEVER sit so that I am not facing the entrance to the room I'm in, particularly when I'm armed, which is now nearly always. In fact, everybody I'm friends with already knows to offer me the door-facing seat. But until you're in a real risk situation, doing otherwise could be excused. But don't do it again.

As for the cook, I don't know whether to fault him or not. But the sound of your post suggested like you gave him hell. Maybe I took your words too strongly. I'd mention to him, if it were me, in as friendly a tone as I could muster after such an event, that he may not have realized (some people don't) the danger he was in and that perhaps next time he should call 911 first, and then his boss.

About not calling 911 at all...in that situation, you're not necessarily dialing 911 to have an instant-cop pop up on the sidewalk. You're calling, in part, so that if these creeps dedice to return and shoot you, the officialdom is already aware and mobilized and you might get an EMT just a few seconds faster than if you waited till after you're shot, and that could mean living rather than dying.

In my situation, I have the police visit often. I try to be sensitive about their not wanting to waste too much time. I use the non-emergency number whenever possible. BUT...ANY time ANYONE who is taking a threatening stance says to me "I have a gun", I'm dialing 911. Show me a cop who thinks that's abusing 911.

Sir William
February 10, 2006, 01:47 AM
The grill cook and I talked today. His first words were to the effect of his error in going out the door. I said that was correct. The better respnse would have been to escort the 5 BGs to the door, see them out and lock the door behind them. My instinct told me to stay inside, avoid physical contact, wait for the PD and draw only if needed. I told the grill cook that his going outside took him out of my responsibility. I felt m role was to secure the coffee shop and make certain there was NO Round #2. He and I both saw the shop manager on the phone and we made an error in trusting that 911 was being called. IOWs, you can't trust that someone else will do the proper thing. He admitted feeling rather alone when he realized he was surrounded by 5 BGs in the parking lot by himself. He kept waiting for the LEOs to show up. We both made a mistake in that assumption. I am writing the incident report in such a manner as to make the company aware of their liability for protecting their customers.

Rob P.
February 10, 2006, 01:48 AM
I also think that some of the comments were a little too rough. Especially this part:

So you heard the kid claim he had a gun and made a furtive move. At that time, you did not draw your own gun. Did you take your mother down to the ground, shield her, or try to get her moving in the opposite direction away from the threat? If you were truly concerned about y'all's safety, then I can't imagine why you didn't do anything to protect yourselves

I believe that not calling attention to oneself is a good defensive tactic. In a restaurant where everyone is just sitting there letting these punks do their stuff, going all ninja would only give them a focus to concentrate on. Stealing silverware and setting off the fire alarm is not an imminent threat which justifies killing someone.

It wasn't until after they were outside and the "gun threat" was made that things became more complicated. At that point, sudden shielding/ducking/agressive defense movements could have actually instigated the punk into pulling the weapon he claimed he had in his pants.

Remember, we are not LEO and have no obligation to act as LEO and are actually prohibited from doing law enforcement. Once stuck in the situation, all Sir William could do was wait until either it defused itself or escalated to the point he HAD to act to protect his own life. Acting prior to that point would have been a bad tactical decision.

However, some training to help overcome the surprise factor should be on the "to-do" list. Yes, you can be caught by surprise. However, that shouldn't leave you flat footed and unable to think or act.

2400
February 10, 2006, 11:33 AM
I told the grill cook that his going outside took him out of my responsibility. I felt m role was to secure the coffee shop and make certain there was NO Round #2.

How did you become responsible for the coffee shop and it employees? :confused:

Mikeyboy
February 10, 2006, 11:56 AM
Sir William...you did fine, you were not directly threatened, but they should have called 911. ....and another thing

This is incident #3, in less than 6 months...Two shootings and one threatened with a possible gun....when are you moving????

Ares45
February 10, 2006, 01:38 PM
I don't understand the comment about not wanting to kill a child. 1st, a 12 year old can kill you just as dead as a 45 year old could. 2nd, It has nothing to do with killing someone else, it's about saving you and your mother's life.

James K
February 10, 2006, 02:47 PM
Ok, 00spy,

So you would have opened up, blazing away at the kids, spraying bullets all over the place and out the door, shooting the clerk, the cook, your mother and a dozen innocent people, and probably missing the punks who were no deadly threat anyway. All because some trash ticked you off and you think you have to prove your manhood with a gun. The punk was blowing off about having a gun, but the person who did have a gun acted correctly, not going off the deep end.

Jim

DBOUNCE1
February 10, 2006, 03:19 PM
kids theese days geeshe

armedandsafe
February 10, 2006, 03:41 PM
How did you become responsible for the coffee shop and it employees?

By deciding to be a responsible human?

Pops

kix
February 10, 2006, 03:43 PM
Those kids need some training out behind the wood shed.
I think you did just fine. You can not go into combat mode because of a smart ass kid.

bruchi
February 11, 2006, 11:15 PM
SIR WILLIAM, I am confused here, you should be telling us how you took control of the situation, after all this where just 5 restless kids and you claim on another post here that when you where on that elite team that served the "AVON" warrants at 5 am, obiously to very dangerous felons, you carried on you 7 handguns!!!

Why in the world would 5 loud teenagers be allowed to walk out scott free when someone with your background was there to put them in their place?

I ask you again, are you the same SIR WILLIAM that got expelled minutes into your first post at another forum for asking if your 22 revolver was the right weapon for your favorite pastime, shooting at cars on the freeway?

gdeal
February 12, 2006, 12:35 AM
Mind my own business.

Sir William
February 12, 2006, 02:04 AM
bruchi, I have 0 idea of what you are talking about. I am not the party you refer to as being banned. Not me. Duty and honour are one thing but, facing down five out of control juveniles is stupidity.

kennybs plbg
February 12, 2006, 10:56 AM
Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt. Chances are if someone stood up to them they would of ran like the kids they really are, nice message we're sending to our youth that we except this type of garbage.

People minding there own business and not wanting to get involved is the reason they were there to begin with. When do people start getting involved when they become teens and are set in their ways with real guns, maybe after they kill someone. Grownups (adults) in society are teachers of youth, what have you taught them with your actions. You may live in todays PC world, but I chose not too. For the last 25 years my wife has been telling me you can't do things like that anymore, my response has always been the he!! I can't watch me. Yes I've been there and done that, messages have been sent many times over the years. Most have come back full circle with friendship and respect going both ways. Isn't this the way its suppose to be.

My last thought on the subject is to even consider using a firearm at that time is shear stupidity and you probably shouldn't even be carrying to begin with.

kenny b

TooTall
February 12, 2006, 11:03 AM
Under those circumstances, it sounds like you reacted properly. No weapon was seen, so deadly force was NOT one of your options.

As someone else pointed out, it is entirely possible that one of the employees had already called the local police. The off-duty cook probably called the owner just to cover his rear-side.

I often took my mom out for meals when she was in her 80's, living alone, and in need of getting out of the house for awhile. Don't stop doing that just because you had one negative situation!

My mom passed away when she was 89 years old. She had been on her own for over 6 years, for my dad passed on when he was 82. One of the best times I had with my dad was when he was 79, and I took him out for what turned out to be his last shooting trip. The "old man" could still hit what he aimed at, and I was really proud of him! I had great parents and miss them a lot!

Puppy
February 12, 2006, 05:47 PM
If someone proclaims to be armed - its prudent to assume that they are.

WhyteP38
February 12, 2006, 08:16 PM
At the risk of getting severely flamed, what about discreetly drawing your piece when the kid made the grab for his pants? At least you would have been ready had the kid actually pulled a gun. Chances are that anyone present was watching the kid, not you. The kid certainly wasn't watchng you. And you don't have to display your piece. Just pull it enough to clear your holster.

Obviously, it depends on where you are in the place. If you're standing in line, putting your hand on the grip (as you said you did) is probably the most you can do without drawing attention to yourself or making a bad situation worse. But it seems like you were seated and possibly in an area where your draw could go unseen.

As for shielding your mother, given that she's 80, sounds like doing so might have injured her worse than the immediate situation called for.

As for shooting a "child," anyone who is trying to kill you is not your friend, regardless of age or acquaintance.

bruchi
February 12, 2006, 11:24 PM
Good you are not the person I refer to, that one seemed to be some teenager with time to waste, stories to yarn, still seeing your "background" serving "AVON" warrants, I can't get your lack of reaction and even more your need to relate the incident here if it was not worth reacting to?

TexasSIGMan
February 12, 2006, 11:44 PM
At the risk of getting severely flamed, what about discreetly drawing your piece when the kid made the grab for his pants?

If you carry IWB there's no way in hell you can draw discreetly. There's nothing discreet about a grown man ripping his shirt up out of his pants.

(This is why I don't carry IWB myself, but most people seem to).

BillCA
February 13, 2006, 01:15 AM
Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt. Chances are if someone stood up to them they would of ran like the kids they really are, nice message we're sending to our youth that we except this type of garbage.

I don't understand the comment about not wanting to kill a child. 1st, a 12 year old can kill you just as dead as a 45 year old could. 2nd, It has nothing to do with killing someone else, it's about saving you and your mother's life.

Ah, welcome to 21st Century America.

Let's suppose we decide that 5 pre-teens running amok have ****** you off enough to get up and grab one or two by the collar. You manage to pull the little punks out the door while avoiding flailing arms and feet aimed at your knees or groin. Yell at the others and with luck they scamper out, worried about your threat to call the cops. But your day is only beginning. Even if you call the cops then, they'll claim they were just being noisy when you manhandled them, assaulted them and dragged them outside. You'll be lucky if one of them doesn't accuse you of trying to grope them too. That's the way some of these smart-a** kids work. Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.

Even if you manage to collar the ringleader and verbally command them all outside you're still in potential danger. If the kid does have a gun you've just embarrassed him in front of his peers and he may attempt retribution on you and the entire shop.

While the 2nd quote above is true, if you shoot a pre-teen you need to expect the press and possibly the authorities to drag you over hot coals. If the kid pulls a GAMO pistol after declaring he has a gun and all you see is the grip as he reaches for it, it'll be an expensive shot by the time you get done with both criminal and civil lawyers. You may be cleared, but so will your bank account. Hell, it may be that way even if it's a real gun.

This is one reason why some people freeze up. That fear of being "raped" by the system over something done by a criminal or stupid idiot. In the Seattle mall incident, I'd like to think I would have performed perfectly, but if you see the face of a teen who barely has to shave, you wonder how bad the legal system will treat you.

The reality is that it only takes a prosecutor running for re-election to decide that someone shooting "kids" should be an example of his zeal to protect the public.

kennybs plbg
February 13, 2006, 06:19 AM
Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.


Now you sound like my wife. Your worried about being sued for inflicting "emotional trauma" but willing to take your chances for pulling your handgun and taking one or two children out with it. The statement of them having a gun didn't come out until the very end as they were being taken out the door.

Let me fill you in here, things aren't as bad as you think. Most of these kids parents/parent have no idea whats going on and actually would want to know. Some will always side with the children, but the message is still sent and don't think the children don't understand whats going on.

It must be sad to go through life in fear of everything.

kenny b

Wisby
February 13, 2006, 06:30 AM
I would have called 911 immediatlly and told them about the 5 kids....

I would have told the 911 operator that one of them said he had a Gun...

I would have told my Mom to sit tight for a sec and trailed the kids (if vesiable) untill the Cops got to them...

But thats just me, I don't think anyone should say "I have a Gun" and be joking or trying to be big in front of his friends.

invention_45
February 13, 2006, 08:20 AM
TexSigman:

I think he might be able to subtly "draw". Or at least "pre-draw". By this I mean, depending on how things are configured (seating, where the kids' attention seemed to be focused, etc.) Sir W might have just slowly grasped the grip, even if through a jacket or untucked shirt, and wiggled it so that the weapon was loose enough to remove quickly.

My IWB holster is fairly quick to draw from if I'm standing up. But I KNOW, because I've tried, that when I sit the leather flexes enough so the gun's stuck in there. You are right, there's no quick draw from even a properly fitted IWB while sitting.

However, it might have been possible to subtly make it so without being seen, and without actually drawing it. Maybe even pull it out and set it on the seat for maximum readiness, since there was a threat.

I am starting to get in the habit that when I sit while carrying IWB I do this loosening operation as a matter of routine. I'm sitting still, so even if I expose the trigger a little there's no risk. When I get up the gun would probably fall back in place, but I'll never know. I'm developing the habit of giving the grip a little shove through my untucked shirt as I stand up to leave.

I've been reading a lot about how criminals think and how to avoid crime. Pretty much, if you fail to avoid victimhood, like what happened to Sir W, or like in a robbery, and the BG has a gun, you are most likely to find out after it's already pointed at you. By then, it's probably way too late to start cold, draw, aim, and shoot before you're dead.

The key is situation awareness. That doesn't mean just comprehending a developing threat. It means taking steps to avoid/head off that situation as it unfolds.

I can tell you how I would have reacted, and this is NOT to criticize Sir W.



First, no sitting with my back to the door.

Then, sit as close to the door as practical. This also usually avoids being seated next to the stinky restroom.

Then, the minute I hear/see any sign of a ruckus of any kind, THAT is the time to get the gun loose enough to use quickly. That doesn't mean I pull it out or display it. And a mere ruckus or argument isn't quite enough, unless there's something special about it, to yank my 80 year old mother up out of a restaurant and leave without paying.

If it looks like that ruckus might be getting out of hand and my party and me are in a position to do so, I GTFO !!!

But, failing that, if weapons or threats of weapons materialize, I either make the gun very loose in the holster or put it in my lap and click the safety off.

Then, if a weapon gets pointed in my direction, I have a chance.

When I first started taking this approach, it seemed wildly paranoid and awkwardly silly. But now it's really becoming a habit. I will once in a while find myself seated near the door and forget whether I asked or not.

WhyteP38
February 13, 2006, 08:32 AM
If you carry IWB there's no way in hell you can draw discreetly. There's nothing discreet about a grown man ripping his shirt up out of his pants.
I have a tuckable IWB holster and carry with my shirt bloused. With one hand, I can discreetly pull out the shirt and draw the weapon. It is definitely not as fast of a draw as the traditional shirt-rip, but it gives me another option to the shirt-rip.

If I'm sitting in a booth at a restaurant, it would be hard for anyone to see my weapon under the table. If I'm standing in line, the people behind me could probably see it pretty well.

NOTE ADDED: If someone does see your gun, it could make things worse. Another CCW holder may think you're part of the "gang" and draw on you. More likely, someone will shout, "He's got a gun!" and cause a panic. In an ambiguous situation such as SW faced, having your hand on the grip and ready to draw is probably the overall best response: Your reaction time is reduced but you're not escalating the situation.

WhyteP38
February 13, 2006, 09:42 AM
While the 2nd quote above is true, if you shoot a pre-teen you need to expect the press and possibly the authorities to drag you over hot coals. If the kid pulls a GAMO pistol after declaring he has a gun and all you see is the grip as he reaches for it, it'll be an expensive shot by the time you get done with both criminal and civil lawyers. You may be cleared, but so will your bank account. Hell, it may be that way even if it's a real gun.
You should not pull the trigger unless you believe that doing so would prevent serious bodily injury, sexual assault, or death to yourself or innocent persons. If the alternative is to be severely injured or killed, I would rather be on the living side of that equation and take my risks with the legal system than to be dead or have my family members/friends dead. Letting yourself or others be killed or severely injured--possibly permanently handicapped--out of fear of the legal system doesn't make sense to me. If you're that afraid, don't carry; it won't do you any good.
if you see the face of a teen who barely has to shave, you wonder how bad the legal system will treat you.
Better that than wondering how badly the funeral home will set up my open casket.

claude783
February 13, 2006, 11:37 AM
Do you suppose that if the Gremlin had a gun, that the guy calling 911 might have escalated the situation to where the "gun" might have been brought out and then the lead might have started flying.

By calling the manager, it might have given pause to the gremlin's that hey, how many other people are calling the police?

I know you want to play the Charles Bronson Death Wish scene, Do you believe in Jesus?

Yes,

Good, cause your gonna meet him...boom!

I have a friend who is 19 and I take her to the cemetary to lay flowers on her father's grave...while there look at the tombstones and am quite amazed at how many "Gremlins" have found their just rewards!

WhyteP38
February 13, 2006, 12:50 PM
Do you suppose that if the Gremlin had a gun, that the guy calling 911 might have escalated the situation to where the "gun" might have been brought out and then the lead might have started flying.

By calling the manager, it might have given pause to the gremlin's that hey, how many other people are calling the police?
Until we can read each other's minds, you'll never have an answer to that question.

I believe it's just as possible--in fact, more likely--that the kid, if he really had a gun, would have beat a hasty retreat if he expected the police were on their way. I believe it's just as possible--in fact, more likely--that the kid, if he really had a gun, would have used the gun if he thought he could do so BEFORE the police were called.

I submit that most bad people, adults or kids, are more likely to leave if they think the police are coming, and conversely they are more likely to harm you if they think they can do so before you call the police. If you had someone pounding angrily on your front door, would you shout, "I've called the police!" or "I have not called the police!"?

kiov
February 13, 2006, 05:49 PM
It sounds like you did the right thing.

If you didn't have a gun, and your mom wasn't there, you could have followed them out, found a quieter spot, and beat the sh** out of them--starting by busting the fingers of the one who said he had a gun. Act all friendly, then strike without warning. No, "hey you, come here!" If the cops ever catch up with you plead self defense. No weapon, no rabid procecutor, they let you go. When you are armed you can't get in a scrape just cause some jerk(s) deserves it.

Since you had the piece on you, its best to stay out of it. Sombody else, like Lenny, will take care of them soon enough. I would have probably left with Mom when they started acting up. Otherwise, I'd be quietly drawing my gun under the table when he said he had a piece, in case he did start firing. Then you shoot to kill, no choice.

kiov

Eghad
February 13, 2006, 06:38 PM
The best thing would have been to call 911 with a good description of the young lad. If the Police managed to round him up he could have enjoyed thier hospitality.

WhyteP38
February 13, 2006, 09:07 PM
In reading through this thread, I see the following nearly polar-opposite responses:

kennybs plbg (western NY)
Enough for crying out loud, these were Pre-teens(10-11-12yo). Wasen't there a man or two (or even a woman) in the place responsible enough that would stand up, grab them by the collar and drag them outside one by one(pre-teens huh), what they needed was a swift boot in the butt.
and BillCA (Kalifornia)
Let's suppose we decide that 5 pre-teens running amok have ****** you off enough to get up and grab one or two by the collar. You manage to pull the little punks out the door while avoiding flailing arms and feet aimed at your knees or groin. Yell at the others and with luck they scamper out, worried about your threat to call the cops. But your day is only beginning. Even if you call the cops then, they'll claim they were just being noisy when you manhandled them, assaulted them and dragged them outside. You'll be lucky if one of them doesn't accuse you of trying to grope them too. That's the way some of these smart-a** kids work. Expect parents may sue you for "emotional trauma" to their little darlings and psych treatments at $200/hr.
Seems like our responses are conditioned by our environments. I grew up in Indiana, and if I still lived there, Kenny's response would probably work. I also lived in the PRK for 16 years, and if I still lived there, Bill's response would probably be the right response. (In the PRK, self-defense of any kind is considered an infringement on the delicate psyches of criminals, which makes YOU the bad guy.)

So it seems that the right response depends in large part on where you live.

stephen426
February 14, 2006, 11:48 AM
I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this type of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse? I hate little punks like that and would have told them to STFU and leave. If they got stupid, I would pepper spray them. These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the food chain before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing! ;)

WhyteP38
February 14, 2006, 12:45 PM
I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this tyoe of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse?
I agree with you because I've seen it happen, several times. It's a pattern of pushing the envelope until the envelope breaks. Plus the process of nurturing a conscience in a kid, which is easiest when they're young but which a lot of parents fail to do. Parents and others who allow or enable this kind of behavior and attitude are doing the kids a disservice, sometimes literally a grave disservice.
These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the totem pole before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing!;)
In places like Indiana, Virginia, or Florida, you're probably right. In places like the PRK, probably not. The PRK didn't get that way by accident.

invention_45
February 14, 2006, 02:34 PM
Despite the new laws, I think I'd still be a little careful what I did in Florida.

Just because there's a statute that says you can't be arrested or sued, doesn't mean somebody won't screw up and create a great headache for you anyway. For example:

Law says that, upon being served with a Final (not Temporary) restraining order you must surrender all guns and ammunition.

But the judges or whoever have decided to put, on the face of the TEMPORARY restraining order, the command that you surrender them.

Since you don't go before the judge until the hearing that makes the RO final, you never get heard on the issue of surrendering your hardware during the temporary RO.

So, it's good that we have laws that try to give victims a chance to survive. But it can take years for all the judges, cops, and state attorneys to make them work. In the meantime, I'd try to err on the side of caution.

Michigan Mason
February 14, 2006, 03:23 PM
Just a question on the cell phone thing...Lots of people have them with the camera built in snap a few pics of the group and when police are called let them know the gun referance was made and tell the police you have some pics of the group in the shop at the time. With all the noise they were making as long as a flash didn't go off they would be none the wiser that a pic was taken and wouldn't hear the sound of the shutter either. Just the new guys 2cents.

nscale
February 14, 2006, 04:43 PM
I think these punks need a hard lesson before they become hardcore. If they think they can get away with this tyoe of behavior without any repurcussions, what will keep them from continuing on the same track or get even worse? I hate little punks like that and would have told them to STFU and leave. If they got stupid, I would pepper spray them. These little hyenas think they are bad as*ses since no one really stands up to them. Its time for a few lions to show these punks their place on the totem pole before they become hardened. I'll bet you could probably even smack a few of them around and "nobody" would have seen a thing!

AMEN Brother :)

SirWilliam, I am sure you did everything right my friend.
As already mentioned, everyone went home alive.

Personnally I would have been in jail and my sweet mother would have to come bail me out. Because as soon as I heard "I Have A Gun" I would have grabbed the kid by the collar, pulled my weapon and gently (yea right) placed it against his neck. His friends would all be crouched in the corner as we waited for the law to arrive. While waiting, I would explain how dangerous it is to say you have a gun if you dont...bla..bla..
When the law arrives, and before I get shot, I surrender the weapon and release the kid to the officer.
I would be handcuffed and escorted to a place of rest (jail) for a couple of hours and the sweet darling children will be taken home by the officers. I believe at least one will need a change of undies.
I would then use my one phone call to my Mom and ask her to be kind enough to bail me out. Oh yea, she would have been the witness that was yelling the entire time. Shoot Em Sonny!

CyberSEAL
February 14, 2006, 04:59 PM
If someone announced to me they had a gun, after behaving in that manner publicly, I would have had my hand on my piece, safety on, hammer down, ready to draw. That's all...

Mastrogiacomo
February 14, 2006, 05:11 PM
I would have done the same...my hand on my gun and ready to shoot if someone made an announcement "I have a gun!" I don't care how old, read the newspapers these days? "Kids" no more....

aspen1964
February 16, 2006, 01:02 AM
...such a situation is not easy to handle since the system protects brats too...at first sign of bad behaviour the owner tells the brats to behave or get out...if they raise the ante..he immeadiately gets the phone and calls the police..at the same one or two customers should get up from the table to show the brats that the owner isn't alone...most punks don't like multiple opposition(one is easier for them to taunt)...although many of us wish we had the liberty to chunk them onto the sidewalk, the law can work against us if we man-handle them without just cause(in the law's eyes)...personally I don't automatically think a kid is packing a gun(the odds are far against it)..they want people to fear them..so the guy who minds his own business is guaranteeing that they will continue to raise hell...you make social-trash back down by making them feel outnumbered...I have my fair share of kid-trash who try to walk me off a sidewalk or make me step aside...if I know he is trying to do so..he bounces off my shoulder(the teeny wenches are often the worst)...I never treat anyone (including kids) disrespectfully for no reason..nor will I let any kid buffalo me...one more thing..if a kid pulls a gun he is just as likely to get shot by me as any adult...I wouldn't feel any more remorse because of it..

my tongue-in-cheek alternative is that every time a punk acts like that you go to his parent's house and beat the crap out of the father and mother until they get tired of it and start to parent their kids...

jimpeel
February 16, 2006, 12:26 PM
I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child.

A "child" with a firearm, and threatening to use it, is no longer a child. He is fair game. You seem to think that a child cannot kill you as dead as an adult can.

WhyteP38
February 16, 2006, 01:39 PM
It seems to me that the use of deadly force in self-defense consists of two stages. For purposes of clarity, let’s define the second stage first, which is the decision to pull the trigger.

I submit that this second stage decision to pull the trigger is relatively simple and should be made before you get into a lethal-force-decision situation. In fact, you should make it before you decide to own a gun for self-defense. Fundamentally, it breaks down this way:

If (x), then (y).

In other words, if you judge a BG is committing or about to commit sexual assault, serious bodily injury, or death against you or someone else (x), then pull the trigger (y).

For me, it is illogical to say, If (x)—unless the BG is a child, grandmother, vegan, etc.—then (y). If someone is going to commit sexual assault, serious bodily injury, or death against you or someone else, these extraneous factors are irrelevant. You are equally as sexually assaulted, seriously injured, or dead by the hands of an ex-felon as you are by a wild child, insane grandmother, or a nutritionally deprived vegan. If these factors are going to stop you, you are better off financially, legal, and physically by not carrying a weapon.

Now let’s examine the first stage decision:

Is this (x)?

Here is where the difficulty lies. How certain are you that you are seeing (x)? A neighbor standing in his yard and yelling at you that he’s going to kick-in your teeth—a verbal threat—is easily distinguished from that same neighbor storming into your yard, his fists clenched, yelling at you that he’s going to kick-in your teeth—an imminent threat. Unfortunately, many situations are ambiguous or begin one way and turn into something else. You will most likely not have all the data that you would want, and not likely have all the time to respond that you would want. You will need to trust your judgment based on partial information and time pressure, which is much easier said then done.

You can improve your judgment various ways, such as reading incident reports and the experiences of others and then mentally running through them to see where you might have judged the situation to be (x), or to see factors that will help you determine if (x) exists.

You can also run mental games throughout your daily affairs, such as “What if?” scenarios based on the activities around you. And then ask yourself:

Is this (x)?

How your situational judgment answers that question leads to one and only one of the following:

If (x), then (y).

or

If not (x), then … does the scenario require simply extra vigilance (a) or a preparatory response (b) such as leaving, moving to a better spot, readying to draw (putting your hand on the grip of your gun), etc.?

To my way of thinking, the first stage decision is the hard part. It does not always lead to the second stage decision. But if it does, the second stage decision should have been already made; an (x) situation always forces the (y) reaction.

riverrat66
February 16, 2006, 04:44 PM
Sir William,
I think you did the right thing except for dialing 911. Having your hand on your handgun was I think the best thing you could do under those circumstances. After all, these were "pre-teens" but this smart azz kid could might very well have had a handgun or a "look a like". God forbid you ever had to shoot a child because he had a "look-a-like" handgun. Where in the hell are these children's parents? The problem is, the way society is today is that if you clip one of these punk kids, you're the bad guy! This whole deal in my opinion was a lose - lose situation. You did good by letting it move outside away from the other patrons of the restaurant.

A "child" with a firearm, and threatening to use it, is no longer a child. He is fair game. You seem to think that a child cannot kill you as dead as an adult can.
I agree 100% but I'll bet most of the time that child is just showing off and can be talked out of that handgun. Also how many children think about the consequences of using that handgun?

aspen1964,
Those types of kids are called "bullies" and they need a good azz whooping and probably so do their parents but unfortunately that's against the law!

jimpeel
February 17, 2006, 10:02 AM
Also how many children think about the consequences of using that handgun?That's the problem. Kids these days are trained in firearms usage by the likes of Swartzenegger, Stallone, and Willis. You point this, you pull this, and someone falls down. You change the channel and the guy who fell down is alive again.

Teacher Barry Grunow tried to talk Nathaniel Brazill out of his firearm http://www.courttv.com/trials/brazill/

His widow blamed the firearm manufacturer http://www.local10.com/news/1786880/detail.html The award against Valor was later overturned and they sued the estate for reimbursement of their costs http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=32806. As usual the Brady Bunch was celebratory http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.php?release=398 but didn't have much to say when the case was overturned.

It isn't the consequences that are at issue but the reality of those consequences. If they don't believe that it really hurts, or that the person they shoot will never walk the Earth again, then there is no reality for them. Television and movies have numbed kids to those facts.

If I have a grown man point a firearm at me I have some hope for survival -- 50-50 as it were. If a kid points a firearm at me I assume a 100% chance that I am going to be killed.

WhyteP38
February 17, 2006, 12:12 PM
The problem, as I have actually seen it happen, is that kids don't know exactly what they're doing, but they know exactly what they want to do at that moment. They don't have the maturity to understand all of the consequences--the big picture view--of their actions. Consequences expand out from the moment, and often in unpredictable ways. Most adults understand this. I've never seen a kid--let's say under the age of 24--who does. (Ever notice that auto insurance rates drop when you turn 24?)

Kids usually understand the moment they are in, and they will act in a manner consistent with what they want at that moment. The non-immediate consequences almost always surprise them. As a result, if they are angry and want to harm you and feel there will be no immediate consequences, they are more likely to attempt to harm you than would an adult. This is one of the major reasons why the military recruits young adults. That is also why you will often need to tell them something that would be obvious to an adult. (Having spent 8 years after college as a naval flight officer, I have seen this countless times.)

I have seen a lot of angry, pumped-up kids suddenly show hints of fear when you mention non-immediate consequences. It's as if you've suddenly thrust them into an environment they've never experienced before, and that lack of familiarity unnerves them, at least to some degree.

riverrat66
February 17, 2006, 01:45 PM
It isn't the consequences that are at issue but the reality of those consequences. If they don't believe that it really hurts, or that the person they shoot will never walk the Earth again, then there is no reality for them. Television and movies have numbed kids to those facts.
I agree and I know teacher Barry Grunow tried to talk Nathaniel Brazill out of his firearm but Brazill was in my opinion an altogether different case then a bunch of trouble makers showing off in restaurant.
I'm not arguing with you as I know what Sir William is talking about. I take my 84 year old mother to lunch several times a week and have no idea what I would have done in that situation.

I posted this last week in another thread about a similar situation although there was no mention of a weapon.
A few years ago I was in the local Mickey D's one morning and these two BG scumbags come in, looking like they had been up all night, they were dirty, smelly and looked like trouble right from the get-go. They started MFng the counter girl and one hit her in the face with a sandwich because he didn't like it, then one guy started harassing some guy with his wife and small kid telling him he was going to Fng kill him while the other threw stuff all over the restaurant. I was standing at the other end of the counter with a large black coffee with the lid off, and we all know how hot McDonald's coffee is! I told the other counter girl to quickly give me another large black coffee minus the lid. Mind you now I walk with a cane but I was carrying my Glock 27, but figured when these guys approached me a hot coffee in the face would work better then shooting these a-holes in a crowded restaurant. Also, if you know how to use it, the cane can be a great weapon! Well, as it turned out a few seconds later the cops were there and not so politely escorted those punks out and I went quietly on my way and I never did pay for the coffee!

But what are we to do when our society, especially our children are so influenced and numbed by what they see on TV and in the movies. Should we revert back to the days of the "Old West" , where everyone just strapped on the ole' six shooter and settled everything out in the street? Back in my day it was a fist fight, now it's a gun fight! Surely we can't just blame TV and movies. The parents have some responsibility to bear here but how do we start correcting what has been done wrong? Boy, I wish I had the answers but in the mean time I'm scared to death. Scared that some stupid kid may not give me a choice.

jimpeel
February 18, 2006, 12:32 AM
The parents have some responsibility to bear here but how do we start correcting what has been done wrong?The only time that parents have full control of their kids these days is from conception to birth; and then they have but two options -- keep or kill. At the moment of birth their kids are taken from them figuratively. They are told what they can and cannot do with their kids; and when those same kids later end up crosswise to the system the same people who prevent them from structuring those kids blame the parents they prevented from that structure for bad parenting skills.

Parents are told not to spank their kids because it gives them low esteem. They insist that parents instead give them a time out. Time outs are merely conditioning and preparation for jail time in later life. I'm sure that those who currently reside in jail are proud of their self esteem and are oh-so-happy about how their parents failed to structure them prior to their turn onto the path to prison.

The cure for this mess is to let parents start structuring their kids with a belt before they take the wrong path. Nearly every poster on this board had his butt whipped with a belt and grew up none the worse for it. If these same posters had been left to their own devices to become feral animals they very well might be posting here from the prison library internet connection.

Don P
February 18, 2006, 10:01 PM
:mad: Shoot them all and let God sort them out. **** on them they do not deserve to suck up air that I could be using or eating food that I could eat.

Ac1d0v3r1d3
April 15, 2007, 09:06 PM
If i was in your situation, Since i dont carry i'd just have to tackle and stomp whoever it was that said they had a gun. Its for everyones safety. If it turns out that whoever didnt actaully have a gun, then it just teaches them a lesson. You cant going around threatening people with guns. Weather you actaully have one or not.
Seems like it might be cinsidered brandishing. I mean since you can be arrested for armed robbery even if you use a toy gun or no gun at all, you should beable to be arrested for saying that you have a gun in this situation.
Just my two cents

BikerRN
April 15, 2007, 10:54 PM
OK, here's my take on the original situation and some of how I would've reacted; BTDT

Sit in a more tacticaly advantageous position
Not get involved (You are NOT LEO and only have a duty to protect yourself)
I am LEO and will not get involved off-duty, except to summon help
I would be a very good witness and would've called 911
If he had pulled a gun then all bets are off, I would be protecting Mom if I can do this by not moving then so be it

It sounds to me like you are looking for a chance to use your weapon. If you want to do that, pass the test and join the local Constabulary.

Biker

nbk2000
April 15, 2007, 11:32 PM
Chances are if someone stood up to them they would of ran like the kids they really are, nice message we're sending to our youth that we accept this type of garbage.

Problem is that the same parents who let their kids run wild in the streets are the same parents who get self-rightously aggressive when anyone else takes care in correcting their spawns misbehaviour. I've seen this happen countless times.

So let the little punks run around now. In 5 years you'll be able to shoot them in the back with their own gun as they attempt to flee when they finally get around to armed robbery of a convenience store...like the one I worked at. :)

Sgt. Nathan Chapman, a Green Beret, was the first American soldier killed in combat in Afghanistan, and the fatal shot was fired by a 14-year-old boy armed with an AK-47.

So a child with a gun has the means to kill even one of the most highly trained warriors America can produce.

What are the odds for a civvie facing a pack of gun-toting thug-wannabe's? All it takes is one snot-nose with a gun to kill you.

gnut
April 16, 2007, 08:22 AM
Sir William, what the hell were you thinking? What the hell are all of you thinking? The answer to this senerio is to stand up and calmly say, boys, I think it is time for a time out.
This thread ****** me off. Not at Sir William or anybody who has posted a reply. I am ****** at our society as a whole. Because of law suits and liberal thinking, men can't be men. When I was a teen my buddies and I miss behaved on several occasions. Each time some man who we didn't even know got involved and crawled our butts. So what is the solution?
First we have to become men in our homes. That doesn't mean we have be a Hitler. Balance is the key. Balance between punishment and love, it depends on the child on which is needed most.
I could go on and on, but look at it like this.
You are wanting to destroy a town, so you invade the town quietly, you destroyed all the valient men covertly. You then can have your way with the women and children.
See any comparisons?
Look, I don't claim to have all the answers. I haven't been the perfect dad or husband. The one thing I can tell you is that I am king of my house. My queen has a lot of power and influence, and we love our subjects dearly. But my word is final.
In closing, I recall the scene from Braveheart where the nobles were going out to meet with and negotiate with the kings army. William Roberts starts to ride out, when I think Steven asks him where he is going. His reply? To pick a fight.
Thats all I have to say about that.

Duxman
April 16, 2007, 10:13 AM
Instead of rehashing some of the points already made lets talk about goals:

For the average CCW holder - my goal is to go home safe everyday.

Success for me - never having to draw my weapon - to avoid conflict.

Sir William has scored on both points.

The only possible threat is the kid reaching into his pants and saying he has a gun. The pre-teen did not actually draw or even show the butt of the gun. (Unless I am mistaken in the actual read.)

In Sir Williams situation - (I normally carry horizontal shoulder holster) - I would have reached into the jacket non chalantly and taken the thumb strap off, asking my Mother to get ready to jump below the table.

Also checking which angle would be the safest to take a shot - just in case the bullet goes through the BG. Dont forget you are in a restaurant. You dont want the bullet to go through BG and hit an innocent.

Alternative scenario #1 - if there was a nearby exit - and it is unblocked by BGs - I would take my family and exit. (If I was alone - that would be different)

Alternative scenario #2 - If one BG has gun - there is no guarantee that he is the only one armed. So if you draw and shoot him, one of the other kids could potentially draw and shoot you or get into a gunfight with you. This would make a very bad situation worse.

In my estimation - there was no IMMEDIATE threat. It could have gone either way, although I am glad it did not go bad.

spacemanspiff
April 16, 2007, 12:41 PM
I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child.
I made my decision to carry because I wish to defend my life and the lives of others if possible, from those who have no respect for life. There is no set of different standards for teenagers or pre-teens.
If they pose a threat, I'll deal with that threat.

On top of all that, the mentality behind carrying is not about killing, its about stopping the threat. Yes, I know, its semantics, but if you are still talking about 'killing' people while you are lawfully carrying, maybe you should rethink carrying altogether. I don't wish to kill anyone, but if I have to, I'll shoot to stop a threat. If they die in the process, oh well.

Hook686
April 16, 2007, 01:28 PM
02-09-2006, 01:58 AM #8

Sir William wrote:



I was only thinking about NOT wanting to kill a child. Really. These were pre-teens, I was offended and angered by their actions and behaviour but, I kept recalling the words of the Washington mall CCWer who was shot down. I did place my hand on the butt of my Walther when the one unknown child said he had a gun. If he had begun drawing a Gamo pistol, I don't honestly KNOW? I requested that the owner of the coffee shop pull and review the video camera footage, I did obtain a incident report form and I am thinking of filing a beef against the shop manager inside it for non-action, inappropriate action and failure to provide a safe environment for the customers. I know that everybody cannot be a Marine but, poor ACTION is better than NOTHING. I will fill out the incident report form and see what occurs. It DID take selfcontrol to simply NOT crush the little maggots, pardon my french.


It sounds to me in this post that your concern was not your mother, but rather not killing a child. You did nothing. Why a beef against the shop manager for doing same ? Is the shop manager a LEO that might have a duty to act on an alleged lethal threat ?

I applaud your self control, as well as the shop manager's. Why blow up the incident, as both of you acted pretty much the same.

junkpile
April 17, 2007, 10:09 PM
Depending on where I was sitting, I'd have my hand on my firearm and on Defcon 2, I can tell you that much. (Of course, it depends on whether or not they seemed drunk, high, drugged-out, dangerous, or what).

Ac1d0v3r1d3
April 18, 2007, 12:46 AM
i think that everyone who is able has a duty to protect the life or any person. But thats just me, other people have their own opinions and thats fine by me.
It kind of sadens me to see a police officer say that he dosent feel like he has a duty to protect when hes not at work. But i suppose that for an officer of the law standards and expections are higher. And repercussions may be larger.

BikerRN
April 18, 2007, 01:58 AM
Yes, repercussions are very high, and I don't care to go through the investigations in to my actions again.

Also, I said I was an LEO, Fed in fact. I never said I was a Police Officer, you made that assumption. I will protect myself and my family, no more when I am on my own time. The situation will dictate what my response is.

If you feel that you have a "duty" to protect others then good luck, you're going to need it. All I will say is, if the person you are protecting, a third party you don't even know, is so irresponsible as to not take precautions for their own safety why pray tell should you concern yourself with their safety?

There are exceptions to the above, but I better make darn sure I know what's occurring and who all the players are before I go jumping in to "save the day".

Biker

CyberSEAL
April 18, 2007, 08:23 PM
BG tells me aloud he has a gun all the while reaching into his pants? C'mon...it's draw time...no doubt. I don't need to "see" the gun...what I need is to have the drop on him.

Jeffenwulf
April 22, 2007, 02:48 PM
I see that this is a very old thread, but I thought I'd add my $.02. Foul language and being obnoxious are certainly irritating, but certainly not crimes. If they were, just about everyone teen and pre-teen in the U.S. would be in jail, along with many adults. Children stealing silverware is a crime, but not one where deadly force should be used. A child reaching into his pants and claiming to have a gun is a problem, both of stupidity and of legality.

You didn't see a gun nor did the gun print, so it would be difficult to tell if he did in fact have a firearm. Had he drawn the weapon, I feel you would have been justified in drawing and pointing your weapon at him. The problem with this situation is that the child could have had nothing more than a pellet gun that looked like a real weapon. Unless it were pointed at an individual, I wouldn't have fired but rather demanded that he release the weapon and get on the floor. At the earliest opportunity I would have asked that someone call 911.

As the event happened, I would have done nothing until the "gang" of children had gone. At that point I would have called 911 with a description of the kids and the information that one of them had acted in a threatening manner and claimed to have a gun. Though some may feel justified in shooting someone because they claim to have a gun and act threatening, I certainly wouldn't. Had he been merely posturing, a dead child probably wouldn't sway a jury in your favor. On the other hand, a pre-teen walking around with a handgun is certainly a problem for the police. He couldn't purchase such a weapon nor have a CCW. If there were any failings in responsibility, it was that nobody informed the police of this immediately, which endangers others in the community.

As far as suing a shop owner for failing to provide a safe environment, that's simply ludicrous. He asked them to leave and escorted them from the store. He demonstrated intent and action in providing a safe environment for customers. The only way I could see his actions causing an unsafe environment would be had he asked the child to "prove it" by drawing his weapon. So basically:
#1 Be aware
#2 Be prepared
#3 Act if necessary

You did #1 and #2, but failed in #3. Rather than just thinking about shooting the child or blaming the shop manager, you should have acted in a manner that would have removed this firearm from a child's possession by informing the police immediately. Someone spoke of the shop's customers as immediately becoming their problem once a threat was insinuated. What about the surrounding population? If this child did in fact have a gun and the intent to use it, they became endangered by this inaction.

jimpeel
April 22, 2007, 09:44 PM
At that point I would have called 911 with a description of the kids and the information that one of them had acted in a threatening manner and claimed to have a gun.

Yep, and there are few things that will get the cops there quicker than a "man with a gun" call.

MacGille
April 23, 2007, 06:24 PM
Lets get back to basics. First, don't draw unless you see a deadly weapon. Thats the first question you will be asked on the witness stand. Second if you draw, focus on the front sight and pull the trigger. Leave it to the hollywood types to Yell "Freeze" or "hands up" or anything.

Third know that you will be arrested, arraigned and probably lose your job, your gun, maybe even your family before all the dust settles. You may be exonerated but only after a lot of trouble, expense and heartache. You also may have to live with the fact of taking another's life. Don't listen to the internet heroes, they will not have to remember what it is like to kill another. Those of us who do can't tell you how it feels, you have to have been there.

Never, never use a gun to force anyone to do anything. If they call your bluff you are out of options. Carry a gun if you feel you have to , but pray that you never have to draw it. If you look for an excuse, it is gonna bite you.

BikerRN
April 23, 2007, 07:15 PM
CyberSeal

Congratulations! You have just escalated a "verbal" situation in to an "Armed Conflict". In many jurisdictions across this fine land of our's you would be answering to the Judge for Aggravated Assault. That "answering" would of course be after, "booking" at the local County Jail.

No, wait, you live in a "Gun Friendly" State, right? Tell that to Harold Fish, he lives in Arizona, one of the "Gun Friendliest" according to the Brady Bunch. In my opinion there is no "Gun Friendly" State.

As I said before, and will say again; "If it isn't to protect me and mine while Off-Duty, I'm doing nothing more than calling 911 and being a good witness."

Biker

Trip20
April 23, 2007, 07:55 PM
Congratulations! You have just escalated a "verbal" situation in to an "Armed Conflict".

I believe the person responsible for escalating a situation from verbal to "Armed Conflict" is the person who yells aloud, "I've got a gun" and who then reaches for what a reasonable person should assume is... a gun.

"If it isn't to protect me and mine while Off-Duty, I'm doing nothing more than calling 911 and being a good witness."

That's your choice, but not everyone makes the decision in advance that they'll sit by and watch another person get executed, especially while they carry the means to intervene.

Different strokes and all that.

Jason607
April 29, 2007, 11:43 PM
I didn't read much of the responces but I'll say this:

The situation was more than mishandled by the store manager. What you did was right. Those kids belong in juvinile detention, the one who threatened to pull a gun needs to spend the rest of his childhood there, and his parents need to spend some time in the iron bar hotel as well.

I was in a Burger King one day ordering food. Some little punk was asked to leave so on his way out he sprayed pepper spray into the air. The people working there as well as other customers were discusted and when I went and called 911 they looked at me shocked and suddenly I was evil because it was somebody's cousin or something that had emotional problems. Well after that he had legal problems.

JoshB
April 30, 2007, 08:43 AM
There is no good reason for anyone to go around causing trouble like those kids did. Any good American should have gotten up and politely asked them to leave. If they continued to act like that [considering you were legally armed], pulled your shirt up over your pistol, grab the grip, and say something to the effect of, "I think it's in everyone's best interest for you to calm down and leave." If they persist [especially after their comment about their gun], it would be time to draw and demand that they leave.
Fortunatly this situation worked out even though it was handled this way. Even so, I do what I have to do to protect myself, my family, and others.

djturnz
April 30, 2007, 12:07 PM
STOP! Or my mom will shoot.:)

Rangefinder
April 30, 2007, 12:13 PM
STOP! Or my mom will shoot.:)
True statement there! And she's a regular Annie Okley with her Ruger GP-100 6"... Fear the mother! :D
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l259/hillsjim/Shooting3-1.jpg

CyberSEAL
May 13, 2007, 08:05 PM
...such a situation is not easy to handle since the system protects brats too...

Understandable...however in the face of a real threat, "the system" is the last thing on my mind.

CyberSEAL
May 13, 2007, 08:11 PM
First, don't draw unless you see a deadly weapon.

Incorrect advice that could get someone killed.

deerslayer79
May 13, 2007, 08:34 PM
Damn kids these days,I woulda let the parents sue me,I don't have anything they want anyway.If I was in your shoes,I woulda felt threatened and comenced to whippin me some hind end,Let the law do what they thought was right to my actions.I believe if I was going to jail I would probably whip their parents behinds for lettin their snot nosed bratty kids be that way..75% of kids these days have no upbringing what so ever,they look up to the trash thats on T.V. instead of their own family members,and their parents let them do whatever they want,totally sickening IMHO.

Duckman44!
May 14, 2007, 10:43 AM
"You were correct in minding your own business. I also would have confronted then coffee shop manager. I might have even called 911 myself. IMHO, the only mistake you made was having your back to the front door. I always sit facing the front door constantly watching it and I sit close to an emergency exit."

Do people really live like that? No offense, but thast just seems a little paranoid to me. Enjoy life. It is great to be prepared, but at the same time not everyone is out to get you!