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Chris Phelps
February 7, 2006, 11:42 PM
Hypothetical situation -

You have just come out of Walmart. You walk around the corner to find a man holding your brother at gun point. You draw on him and order him to drop his weapon. He identifies himself as LEO, but there is no obvious identification. What is your next move?

Dust_Devil
February 8, 2006, 12:14 AM
Good question and I'm assuming this is a plain-clothed police officer, but another good question is your brother the type of person that would do something to cause a plain-clothed police officer to hold him at gun point? Which, in that case, you may not be suprised, but if your brother is a law-abiding citizen and a good samaritan then there would be little reason for a police officer to have him at gun point at which that plain-clothed police officer better show some ID very quick or answer to you.

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 12:20 AM
If he I'ds himself as a LEO, I'd just say "we'll see about that." and demand that he drop his gun and put his hands over his head. Get him under control first squatting down on knees with hand over head. Then ask him to slowly reach for his ID and throw it to me and then get on the phone with the 911 operator and try to confirm over the phone if he was legitimate (IDs can be faked) and also call for uniformed police to come help. Once confirmed over the phone, I'd lower my gun, holster it and let him know that we are okay and hand him his ID and ask him what the trouble is with my brother.

Double Naught Spy
February 8, 2006, 12:32 AM
but another good question is your brother the type of person that would do something to cause a plain-clothed police officer to hold him at gun point? Which, in that case, you may not be suprised, but if your brother is a law-abiding citizen and a good samaritan then there would be little reason for a police officer to have him at gun point at which that plain-clothed police officer better show some ID very quick or answer to you.
Today 10:42 PM

It does not matter whether the brother is the type of person to cause a plain clothes officer to hold him at gun point or not. It does not matter if he is a law-abiding citizen and a good samaritan or not. Either way, the officer needs to be showing ID.

What is your next move on discovering the activity? That all depends on whether you believe the officer is an officer or if you give the person a chance to produce ID.

yorec
February 8, 2006, 12:50 AM
Next step is to ID him - I'll tell him to do it slowly since that is my brother he's holding a gun on, I wouldn't want to feel I needed to defend him while the nice officer reached for his wallet.

Not a comfy situation.

Byron Quick
February 8, 2006, 06:48 AM
That would be one of the situations where I'd be thankful to be brotherless, thank you very much.

That's one of the good things about friends...you can be choose them. And be picky. Have standards. So that your friends don't leave body parts lying around and burglar alarms ringing. Then you don't have to worry about this kind of stuff.

Another advantage is living in a small town. I know all the cops for fifty miles. The townies. The deputies. The troopers. The GBI. The feds.

If something like this happens in my town...odds are the guy's an impostor if I don't know him...at least by sight.

texdawg
February 8, 2006, 08:19 AM
Lets assume he is a LEO, and he has mistakenly detained your brother, he doesn't know that mistake yet and he doesnt know your intentions. There is a good chance you get shot while drawing your weapon. Shouldn't you demand ID before drawing?

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 08:43 AM
but another good question is your brother the type of person that would do something to cause a plain-clothed police officer to hold him at gun point?

I don't have a brother. This was just something I have been thinking about lately.




Doug-
If he is a legit officer / deputy / etc, that AIN'T happening.

Erick


Uncooperative LEO was always one of my fears.






Since this was my hypothetical situation, I guess I'll throw in the different ways I see this played out.




The Good

You demand he drops his gun. He identifies himself as LEO and slowly pulls his badge... preferable the chain around the neck type.

If he can't provide ID, you call the local police and let them sort it out.


The Bad
The cop reads your actions wrong (perhaps your wording... you were unclear of your intentions) and opens fire on you.

The cop doesn't identify himself (highly unlikely) but refuses to drop the weapon.


There are a dozen other ways this could play out. Any one of them leaves me with one question... Once he is ID'd and you have reholstered your weapon, will there be any reprocussions for your actions in the first place?

Mikeyboy
February 8, 2006, 09:36 AM
Doug....we talked about this...never surrender your weapon to an armed BG. Its a good rule to follow for a CW holder, and its GOSPEL to a LEO. "We'll just see about that???" are you serious??? If he is a true LEO, you will not be in control of anything. You will either be shot or in jail. Simple thing would be to ask for ID, and ask what is going on, lowering the weapon to shoot the guy at waist level (low COM) if needed, this way you can look the guy in the face, and see his ID. You will be less threatening to a real LEO and seem more open to discuss what is going on. If the guy is a BG and tries to make a move you can easily zipper the guy. If he is having problems making up a story, and problems finding ID then start raising your weapon again. Say your going to call 911 to sort this out. If the guy is encouraging it, he is LE. If he runs...well then you know.

You will probably know real quick if its a true LEO officer.

1) Most plain Clothes "On Duty" cops never work alone.

2) Most "Off Duty" would not get involved without calling for some backup unless it is a serious situation that needs to be stopped quickly (rape, attempted murder, etc). If there is a victim next to your brother, that doesn't look fake, or a part of a scam, this guy might be LE.

3) A robbery/assault and an arrest looks different.

Now there is a slight possibility that the guy is a LEO, but is up to no good. Perhaps your brother got into an argument with the guy and the cop is abusing his power. Perhaps your brother is sleeping with his wife, who knows. The best thing is to call 911 or at least threaten to call 911 (if you don't have a cell phone handy), if the guy is a LEO but has no intentions of arresting your brother. Maybe the fear of losing his job will snap him out of it.

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 09:44 AM
And the question still remains... after ID is provided and the situation is sorted out, would you go to jail for drawing on him?

Delta Dave
February 8, 2006, 10:25 AM
You have just come out of Walmart. You walk around the corner to find a man holding your brother at gun point. You draw on him and order him to drop his weapon. He identifies himself as LEO, but there is no obvious identification. What is your next move?


After re-reading the hypothetical situation I realized that the poster has us drawing and asking for ID after the office identifies himself a LEO. I my mind I have a hard time with this. If I come upon my brother/family member being held at gun point, I am not slowing down to ask questions. The threat of deadly force directed at my family is sufficient for me come the their defense. I belive that a gun fight will start almost immediately.

superpelly
February 8, 2006, 10:32 AM
As a ex-police officer, I would back off the situation, find some good close cover and then engage a verbal conversation with the plain cloths officer or off duty officer or wacko . Find out whats going on first(now I don't mean face to face.---place of cover-cover-cover). If he is a robber or crazy wacked out person, your giving the wacko another target and possibly a hostage. If its a cop, and you come out branding your weapon , it won't be pretty situation.
Now if its a robber, play out the situation, don't show him your gun!! he will freak out!!!! If you shoot and miss, well, so long brother and now you have a shoot out in a crowded parking lot. He will most likely run from the situation. Now,you need to know the laws in your state regarding the "fleeing felon rule", to shoot or not to shoot? In a situation like this (witnessing a crime) its good to be a really good witness, oberservant. He/she will most likely be caught.

-Most people don't want to kill another person,(emotional part of the problem)
-Possible criminal charges (legal stuff, money, lawyer, Etc)
-Civil damages, again (legal stuff,money, lawyer, Etc)
- Stray bullet--negligent homicide
- You could end up 6 feet under.

If you can avoid a bad situation, avoid it.

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 10:52 AM
After re-reading the hypothetical situation I realized that the poster has us drawing and asking for ID after the office identifies himself a LEO. I my mind I have a hard time with this. If I come upon my brother/family member being held at gun point, I am not slowing down to ask questions. The threat of deadly force directed at my family is sufficient for me come the their defense. I belive that a gun fight will start almost immediately.



That was definitly another way I had imagined the situation going down. However, I guess it isn't a 'what-if' question as much as it is "how do you see the LEO responding?" What follows in this type of situation? You are tucked behind a corner holding him at gunpoint... he is holding your brother at gunpoint against a car 10 feet away. You have ordered him to drop his weapon, he has identified himself as LEO. What do you say to his response? How will he respond to your follow-up actions? For this situation, let's just say he is definitly a LEO (but you don't know that yet). Would you identify yourself as the brother of the person he is holding at gunpoint and ask for ID? Would you state your intentions?


How about the actions AFTER he held up his badge? Would you holster your weapon? would you approach? What follows?

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 11:09 AM
Doug-
If he is a legit officer / deputy / etc, that AIN'T happening.

Erick


Doug....we talked about this...never surrender your weapon to an armed BG. Its a good rule to follow for a CW holder, and its GOSPEL to a LEO. "We'll just see about that???" are you serious??? If he is a true LEO, you will not be in control of anything. You will either be shot or in jail. Simple thing would be to ask for ID, and ask what is going on, lowering the weapon to shoot the guy at waist level (low COM) if needed, this way you can look the guy in the face, and see his ID. You will be less threatening to a real LEO and seem more open to discuss what is going on. If the guy is a BG and tries to make a move you can easily zipper the guy. If he is having problems making up a story, and problems finding ID then start raising your weapon again. Say your going to call 911 to sort this out. If the guy is encouraging it, he is LE. If he runs...well then you know.

You will probably know real quick if its a true LEO officer.

1) Most plain Clothes "On Duty" cops never work alone.

2) Most "Off Duty" would not get involved without calling for some backup unless it is a serious situation that needs to be stopped quickly (rape, attempted murder, etc). If there is a victim next to your brother, that doesn't look fake, or a part of a scam, this guy might be LE.

3) A robbery/assault and an arrest looks different.

Now there is a slight possibility that the guy is a LEO, but is up to no good. Perhaps your brother got into an argument with the guy and the cop is abusing his power. Perhaps your brother is sleeping with his wife, who knows. The best thing is to call 911 or at least threaten to call 911 (if you don't have a cell phone handy), if the guy is a LEO but has no intentions of arresting your brother. Maybe the fear of losing his job will snap him out of it.

Well the way I think of it is this:

1) He is in plain clothes, you don't know who he is, get him disarmed and under control.
2) Once that is done confirm his ID not just with him (because he is in plain clothes) but with local police.
3) In case he is a read BG I do not want to approach him or let my guard down in any way.
4) Once this is done it can be sorted out with police.
5) If he is a true law enforcemtn officer he would understand the need for this and would cooperate as to not get himself, me, his suspect (my brother in this case) or any other people around shot in a misunderstood gunfight. He would be doing the same thing in my shoes. In a reverse situation, police don't know that a man in plain clothes with a gun is necessarily a victim defending himself, they just see someone with a gun and need to get control of the situation.
6) If he is actually someone impersonating a policeman and with bad intentions he definately needs to be disarmed and controled. Better to be safe than sorry.
7) If he is a legitimate policeman and has backup nearby then they will confirm this themselves and their own identity.
8) There is no choice here, I have the drop on him, he either cooperates, properly ids himself or gets shot. The same would happen to me if I was covered by police. Why should citizens react any different. His common sense and the fact that he is a true LEO and a Good Guy should direct him to see this.
9) He should be able to see that since I am working to get the police involved and confirm his ID that I am not a bad guy or a real threat to him
10) If he and his supervisors don't understand this and feel rubbed the wrong way then I will probably get arrested and have to explain it to a jury. But I'd rather do that than have me, my brother or a cop end up dead

EDIT: You misquoted me. I didn't say "We'll JUST see about that" I said "We'll see about that." Big difference and misunderstanding on your part. I wouldn't be saying it in a macho man tone but in an assuring manner that essentially communicates "we will see if you are, but lets take this one step at a time" and proceed to control what you are doing.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 8, 2006, 11:32 AM
Since I have seen well trained individuals draw and shoot someone who was challenging them with a gun drawn in FOF - Doug - expect to be shot while you are jawing away.

An officer has no idea that you are a good guy. He has stopped your brother because he is bad guy or suspected to be such. You come along with a gun and refuse to listen to him. You are an active threat.

I go with asking what's going on before drawing a gun. Presumably from a safe place. You might just run away saying that you are going to call the police.

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 11:43 AM
Since I have seen well trained individuals draw and shoot someone who was challenging them with a gun drawn in FOF - Doug - expect to be shot while you are jawing away.

An officer has no idea that you are a good guy. He has stopped your brother because he is bad guy or suspected to be such. You come along with a gun and refuse to listen to him. You are an active threat.

I go with asking what's going on before drawing a gun. Presumably from a safe place. You might just run away saying that you are going to call the police.


I won't be doing a whole lot of jawing. Unti his gun is on the ground and he is away from it, he either cooperates or gets shot. (again, REVERSE this situation, what would a cop be doing in my place.)
At this point he does have a small clue that I am not a bad guy in that if I were, I probably would have just shot him outright instead of pulling on him and trying to go through all this getting him disarmed. Plus, LEO or not, he must face the fact that he has a gun pointed on him. I have the advantage and I am not giving it up.
From my point of view, until he has identified himself to my (the citizen) satisfaction, HE is a threat. Running away would put my brother in danger, calling out before I draw a gun upon seeing his would put both of us in danger.
Yes he could try to shoot me while I have a gun on him, he may get me, I may miss.....but then the reverse could happen also and could happen in any event whether he was a good guy or a bad guy.
Both sides staying cool calm and collected and cooperating with each other shouldl solve the situation.

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 12:00 PM
I go with asking what's going on before drawing a gun.


"whats going on here?" *BANG* you are shot *BANG* your brother is dead.


I have seen this in the movies soooo many times. It hardly seems like a reasonable option. In all honesty, I would be more apt to open fire without saying a word than I would be to question someone while my firearm is still holstered. You have just given away your position and the element of suprise, and you aren't even prepared for a shootout. Not to mention what could happen to your poor unarmed brother who is standing mere feet away from a drawn and cocked gun pointed COM.



Unti his gun is on the ground and he is away from it,

This method seems just as unlikely to have a good outcome. No person, especially LEO, will drop their firearm. You will be shot at... and most likely lose.



So.. to skip back to the topic... your firearm is already drawn, you have demanded that the percieved BG drops his weapon. He ID's himself...


No more what-if's. This is the current situation. No more "I would have done this or that". Here you are... possible LEO is being held at gunpoint. Pick up where I left off.



Glenn ~ I have only demanded he drop his weapon once, and not since he ID'd himself. This does not make me unreasonable. Not until my next move anyway.


After hearing what he said, I think my next move would be to ID myself as the brother, and ask my brother if this man showed his identification. If the answer was no, I would ask to see it... slowly. If yes, I would reholster my weapon... but then I dont know what I could do as to not be percieved as a threat. I couldn't approach the officer. I couldnt remain behind him. Perhaps I would ask him what he felt my next move should be.



Aren't there any LEO's on this board who want to run through this scenerio so we can get an "other side" view of how this would be best handled?

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 12:10 PM
After hearing what he said, I think my next move would be to ID myself as the brother, and ask my brother if this man showed his identification. If the answer was no, I would ask to see it... slowly. If yes, I would reholster my weapon... but then I dont know what I could do as to not be percieved as a threat. I couldn't approach the officer. I couldnt remain behind him. Perhaps I would ask him what he felt my next move should be.

My reservation about that is:
1) too much talking while the unidentified man still has his gun. Too much talking between you, your brother and him giving him a widow to try something.
2) Simply flashing a badge to me doesn't sound like enough. Badges can be faked. Just like CHLs can be faked or illegitimate, that's why there is a strip on the back of them so police can swipe them through their car computer. I think it is best to confirm with police that this man is a legitimate cop. You also want to see teh badge in your hand. Can't you confirm badge number over the cell phone with 911 police? Flashing a badge has always been a concern with me how do you know it is legitimate, especially if he looks like garbage (undercover....remember the stupid movie Serpico?)

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 12:13 PM
IMHO talking doesn't give the BG time to do anything... unless you take your eyes off him. Or maybe my ability to pull the trigger mid-sentence if I see a threatening gesture is superhuman?

Wow... call me Superman.

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 01:01 PM
IMHO talking doesn't give the BG time to do anything

no but it distracts you.

But, and I'm still willing to play along to pick up where your senario leaves off, backing up to the beginning. If I see someone WITH A GUN aiming it at my brother I think might be more inclinded to shoot the guy who is fixing to shoot by brother than I am to say "Drop the gun"

Mikeyboy
February 8, 2006, 01:03 PM
1)He is in plain clothes, you don't know who he is, get him disarmed and under control.

5) If he is a true law enforcemtn officer he would understand the need for this and would cooperate as to not get himself, me, his suspect (my brother in this case) or any other people around shot in a misunderstood gunfight. He would be doing the same thing in my shoes. In a reverse situation, police don't know that a man in plain clothes with a gun is necessarily a victim defending himself, they just see someone with a gun and need to get control of the situation.

Doug all I'm saying is a LEO is train not to give up his gun. Unless you are a LEO too, your are a threat in his mind, he will not comply with you. A criminal might back down and run, but if it is a true LEO and your not talking, and your not letting him reach for his ID, which he is trained to present when not in uniform, someone will start shooting. You will either be shot, or if your brother was doing something criminal, and you just killed a cop, guess what the punishment is for you??? "But it was an accident"...the judge never hear that before.

The only way to prevail on this one is talking and contacting 911 , and get guys in uniform on the scene. To answers someone question; you accidently draw on a law enforcment officer, If your a valid CW permit carrier, and you immediately stand down when you get the story straight, you will most likely be OK.

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 01:22 PM
Doug all I'm saying is a LEO is train not to give up his gun. Unless you are a LEO too, your are a threat in his mind, he will not comply with you. A criminal might back down and run, but if it is a true LEO and your not talking, and your not letting him reach for his ID, which he is trained to present when not in uniform, someone will start shooting. You will either be shot, or if your brother was doing something criminal, and you just killed a cop, guess what the punishment is for you??? "But it was an accident"...the judge never hear that before.

The only way to prevail on this one is talking and contacting 911 , and get guys in uniform on the scene. To answers someone question; you accidently draw on a law enforcment officer, If your a valid CW permit carrier, and you immediately stand down when you get the story straight, you will most likely be OK.

I understand what you are saying. LEOs are not trained to give up their guns. The whole senario is in any way an ugly situation. BUT the fact is, I have the clear advantage as my gun is trained on him and am more likely to come out on top, if faced with put down your gun or die what is anyone, LEO or otherwise, likely to do? I want him to pull his ID, but I don't want him making any moves drawing the unstable situation out until someone gets control of the situation. I want him to throw me his id after he has put his gun down and is on his knees with hands on head so:
1) I can see the ID in my hands, not just flashed from a distance, and confirm it, If possible, over 911.
2) I don't want him to have a gun in his hand or be in any position to easily get to it or any other weapons he may have on his person while I am looking at his badge, have gun in my hand, a cell phone in the other and am talking on it.
If I had to shoot him before his ID was confirmed, I would have to go to court, I could only hope that there were enough witnesses to describe the events so a jury would understand what happened. I would hate to shoot a policeman or any good guy, but I certainly don't want to put myself or my brother or anyone else at unecessary risk.
Again, reverse the situation. What would the cop be doing in my place.
It is an ugly situation unless nobody ends up shot. If it is about not giving up his gun then perhaps he should be ordered to stick it in his waistband (slowly) or holster it and then, with his nongun hand pull his ID (slowly)
But even then, he still has a gun on him and could reach for it if he thought that I was too distracted on the phone.
No policeman or anyone would approach a situation where they had to draw their gun to have the advantage and then give up that advantage until they had the situation under control.
Lets consider the other possible senario he flashes a badges or I lower my gun while he still has his and approach him to see his ID and HE IS NOT A COP, he turns out to be a bad guy with or without a fake badge and kills me while I am distracted and on the phone. Where does that leave me and my brother? Dead.

If anybody has a better idea or approach that would address these concerns then I'm all ears.

Mikeyboy
February 8, 2006, 01:31 PM
I understand what you are saying. LEOs are not trained to give up their guns. The whole senario is in any way an ugly situation.

Yea Doug I'm suprised you did not think up this senario first.:confused:

I'm thinking this would be a rare event, either the CW carrier would shoot, or the cop would shoot the CW civilian while he/she is drawing their weapon. otherwise, in a crowded parking lot, it would just turn into a standoff until uniformed police arrived.

Musketeer
February 8, 2006, 01:33 PM
The situation is a mess.

Assuming I have not already shot the person with a gun on my brother we are in a stand off situation and NOBODY is going to relinquish a weapon until LEOs arrive who I know to be LEOs. That means cars with flashing lights and guys in uniform.

We had a cop impersonator murder last year near where I live, I am not bleiveing some guy on the street who just says he is a LEO. At the same time anybody who thinks they can order a LEO to drop their weapon and get compliance is a nut. If anything, if the LEO complies he is only doing so to put you off balance while he goes for his BUG. The only thing YOU can do to assuage any fears the LEO now has is to insist that somebody call the police and suggest that you all wait there patiently until they arrive.

I am not relinquishing my gun to a "possible" LEO and any LEO is sure as hell not relinquishing his to me. If he is holding someone at gun point he has a reason to do so, wrong possibly but a reason. You showing up with a gun only reinforce his reasoning.

PaulBk
February 8, 2006, 01:37 PM
Have you seriously considered a part time career as a fiction writer? Your fertile imagination would lend itself nicely to just such an endeavor.

Imagine the possibilities.

-PB

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 01:41 PM
Have you seriously considered a part time career as a fiction writer? Your fertile imagination would lend itself nicely to just such an endeavor.

Imagine the possibilities.

-PB


Actually, yes... yes I have. Except my interest lies more in the movie industry.


It seemed like a good hypothetical situation to post. I read all of these " guy walks into a restraunt with an AR" situations, and such... so I decided to post this one. In my mind, it is a very scary situation to find yourself in... it tests your judgement and reaction probably the most any of us would ever be tested, and worst of all... it is very possible that someday someone might find themselves in this exact spot.



PS - I have a lot more where this one came from... all in good time.

bruchi
February 8, 2006, 01:55 PM
Not perfect but this is definetivelly a very dicey situation, you don't know if he is for real and he pretty much is sure you are another BG, an armed dangerous one to boot trying to get a buddy with a long list of pending warrants on him.

Keeping your gun trained on him, explain your worry of him being for real, and that both you and your brother are standup citizens, some mistake has ensued and it is not necessary for anyone to get hurt.

Slide your CCW permit to him after telling him you are doing so, make sure to explain anything before making a move,the CCW will show him to a degree you are a law abbiding citizen, tell him to call it in and check and if he wants to go ahead, holster his gun and handcuff your brother, make sure your brother cooperates and makes this extremelly easy for the LEO, he can even drop to his knees and place his hands on top fo his head, hey he can drop his pants as well, the goal is no one gets shot, again making the LEO aware this is going to happen and assure him by making the point that you have the drop on him and you could had easily already shot him and both you and your brother flee if that was your intention.

Handcuffs can be taken off afterwards everything is cleared, hopefully this + keeping his gun in his holster or even at hand and being able to call in and see you are legaly bound to carry a gun will give him some sense of security, wait for backup that can prove he is legit then put your gun on the floor, be helpfull when they handcuff you and if you have any sense while waiting you would had already called in your lawyer.

Mr. James
February 8, 2006, 02:03 PM
I'm thinking if this guy is a legitimate LEO, his partner is going to make you dead in a hurry. Problem solved! :p

Derius_T
February 8, 2006, 02:20 PM
not to be negative here, s it is a good thought provoking scenario, but I can see just this type of debate picked up and used by anti's.

See congressman, even gun guys aren't sure how to handle this type of situation. Citizens drawning down on leo's just trying to do their jobs!? Too much confusion! Innocent leos get shot. Thats exactly why nobody but law enforcement needs guns........:barf:

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 02:31 PM
Thats exactly why nobody but law enforcement needs guns........



and that very same discussion ends everytime the same way...


DEA Agent Shoots himself in the foot (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/march/ogrish-dot-com-police_foot_shoot.wmv)


Police Officer Neglegent Discharge (http://www.policevids.com/vidshow.php?vurl=gunplay.mpg)


Even after I find out the guy holding my brother at gunpoint is LEO... those scenes would be playing through in my head, and I would be doing everything in my power to rectify the situation so NO ONE is being held at gun point.

shooter_john
February 8, 2006, 03:29 PM
Many are forgetting that not only are LEO's trained to NEVER give up our gun, we are also trained to DOMINATE ANY SITUATION that we are placed into. That being said, if I have had to go so far as to intervene into a situation off duty and I have a subject at gunpoint and another person comes around the corner with a gun, I will immediately engage that person as they are a threat to me. This is nearly a lose- lose situation, but for those of you who have said you would hold the officer at gunpoint, may God be with you. And for those of you who think you will tell the officer what to do and give him orders... THINK AGAIN, and be ready for a battle. That will be perceived as a hostile act and you will more than likely be engaged if you are armed. The only person that will give me orders when I am not in uniform, is some one who is in uniform. Then I will happily comply.

If you confront the officer verbally and emptyhanded, you will more than likely be ordered to the ground, and you should comply. Besides, if the possible LEO turns out to be a bad guy, why immediately let him know that you are armed, you will have given away the element of surprise. You have already given him two problems to deal with, and effectively divided his attention, at that point in a public place as busy as WalMart, a bad guy will run like the wind. If the bad guy for whatever reason doesn't run, and you are sure it is not LEO, then do what you must do, but I have never heard of a bad guy being so blatant in a public place.

If by chance you have survived drawing on a LEO, you should probaly expect to serve some jail time. I know here in Alabama you could and in my opinion should be charged with menacing if you fail to holster your weapon IMMEDIATELY, if you haven't already been shot.

Just my thoughts and opinion, and what you should expect from me and my training. I should also note that if I were forced to act as an off duty LEO, you can rest assured there will be a lifeless body, a screaming female, or some other extreme situation driving my decision to act, no one's petty issues mean anything to me when I'm not on the clock.

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 03:59 PM
Many are forgetting that not only are LEO's trained to NEVER give up our gun, we are also trained to DOMINATE ANY SITUATION that we are placed into. That being said, if I have had to go so far as to intervene into a situation off duty and I have a subject at gunpoint and another person comes around the corner with a gun, I will immediately engage that person as they are a threat to me.


Man... they dont train LEO's very well, do they?

OK.. my new response to the situation.. shoot the fker in the head without saying a word. If he was a BG, I saved my brother from a potentially fatal situation. If he was LEO, I saved my brothers life as well as my own.



Seriously... what good are police if they are trained to handle situations like this in such a manor as to make it better to engage immediatly than to attempt to identify?



If you confront the officer verbally and emptyhanded, you will more than likely be ordered to the ground, and you should comply. Besides, if the possible LEO turns out to be a bad guy, why immediately let him know that you are armed, you will have given away the element of surprise.


If someone has a drawn weapon that is trained on my brother, you are out of your friggen mind to think I am going to empty-handedly confront him. Given your formentioned statement, I think I'd be better off confronting a BG than a cop.

Ares45
February 8, 2006, 04:03 PM
You and your brother are in a world of $h!t basically. People don't point guns at one another and jibber jabber unless you're in Hollywood. In real life if you point a gun at me you better pull the trigger otherwise you'll end up dead. I have no doubt that once you point a gun at a LEO he/she will decide you are the primary threat and prosecute with a vengeance. I know I would.

jcoiii
February 8, 2006, 04:16 PM
A tip they taught us (and I learned the hard way) at the academy. Always challenge from a position of cover. I'd draw and conceal the weapon as best as possible and talk to the person holding my brother from behind something.

I'll play this from the other end. I'm the cop, holding a guy at gunpoint for something. In my mind, I have justified the need to have my gun out, which means that I think life (mine) or serious injury (others) is imminent.

The good thing about this thread is that it forces me to think ahead of time. In this slow-time where wits are clear, I think that had this guy wanted to shoot me, I'd be shot. So, in talking to me instead of shooting me, "you" are not necessarily an immediate threat to life. But I'd also think that if I had a guy at gunpoint, I'd be telling everyone that came out that I was a cop. Oh, and here in TN, you are required to carry your Dept issued ID (not just a badge) to ID yourself as a Police officer.

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 04:20 PM
double post delete

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 04:21 PM
Man... they dont train LEO's very well, do they?

OK.. my new response to the situation.. shoot the fker in the head without saying a word. If he was a BG, I saved my brother from a potentially fatal situation. If he was LEO, I saved my brothers life as well as my own.



Seriously... what good are police if they are trained to handle situations like this in such a manor as to make it better to engage immediatly than to attempt to identify?


Chris,
I hate to say it, but I agree with you,
shooterjohn (obviously a LEO himself...:eek: ) is taking a Rambo attitude that says "I am a bada-- and the whole world is my enemy. Don't mess with me!" rather than a cool calm and collected PUBLIC SERVANT. He's proud to be a professional killer rather than a professional servant. May God help us all if that is the kind of training and line of thinking that police are trained with today.

Police are NOT ninjas and they are not invincible. They are men, just like you and me and can be killed. They may have more training than one gun owner but have less training than the next but no amount of training will guarantee that he will not be killed.

shooter john, I seriously hope you are the exception rather than the rule to policemen.

Group9
February 8, 2006, 04:35 PM
More "Rambo" than this?

"If he I'ds himself as a LEO, I'd just say "we'll see about that." and demand that he drop his gun and put his hands over his head. Get him under control first squatting down on knees with hand over head. Then ask him to slowly reach for his ID and throw it to me and then get on the phone with the 911 operator and try to confirm over the phone if he was legitimate (IDs can be faked) and also call for uniformed police to come help. Once confirmed over the phone, I'd lower my gun, holster it and let him know that we are okay and hand him his ID and ask him what the trouble is with my brother. "

jcoiii
February 8, 2006, 04:39 PM
Doug, don't turn this into one of those threads.

You could, if you wanted, be in the place of the off-duty cop. You could be detaining someone at gunpoint for whatever reason (the same one the off-duty cop could hold them for). You are holding a BG which you witnessed committing a violent felony in walmart and waiting for the police to show up. The BGs brother comes out (and doesn't know what's going on) and draws on you. What do you think at that time? You know you have good reason to hold this guy. he's committed a violent crime. Do you think "oh, this other guy must just be a concerned family member?" Or do you possibly thing "holy *$&#^, this guys drawn on me and he's trying to rescue his "partner" and kill me?"

So, since we're talking hypotheticals here so that we can think about them ahead of time, don't knock a guy for telling you what might be going through the hypothetical off-duty police officer's mind. Take that information and apply it to your actions from the concerned brother angle. Now you know that perhaps the officer could think you're a fellow gang-banger (or whatever) instead of a concerned relative. How does that change your tactics in approaching the situation?

We can all gripe that people shouldn't think or act how they do. That won't change what they think or do. Instead, how about also thinking, "well, if they could think/act this way, what would I do about it if they did?" I thought that was the purpose of questions like this. Not badgering the people that try and give honest assessment of all the possible implications from a different side.

Severian
February 8, 2006, 04:44 PM
Group9: Hear, hear!

I didn't read anything in shooterjohn's post that's Ramboesque. Seems like that's exactly how LEOs are trained and should react in such a situation. A police badge holds more clout than a CCW permit. The LEO I'm guessing is more familiar with legalities of such situations, while CCWers must debate on the internet...

So while the supposed LEO may be in the right to detain your brother, and you might be in the right to defend your brother, y'all might both be dead...

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 04:55 PM
Really, rewinding to the beginning, wouldn't the policeman ALREADY HAVE HIS BADGE OUT to prevent just such a problem? I mean, forget me, some other person in the lot might see it and think it a robbery and come to the rescue or some security guard might blow him away or even some uniformed cop around. If he is an undercover cop waving a gun around pointing at unarmed people and he doesn't have his badge out and ready to show people then he is asking for trouble.

Weeg
February 8, 2006, 05:21 PM
I have a better one...


What if you unknowingly drew your weapon on Chuck Norris (http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/)?


.

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 05:26 PM
Lol!!!

bruchi
February 8, 2006, 05:28 PM
QUOTE/Many are forgetting that not only are LEO's trained to NEVER give up our gun, we are also trained to DOMINATE ANY SITUATION that we are placed into./QUOTE

Let's then turn the tables around, you are a LEO so you walk into an unknown to you undercover LEO that's purposedly looks very threatening and does not have ID on him, he is holding at gunpoint a loved one that you know to be the last person in the world to get in a position to be arrested but quite wealthy and a prime robbery victim, you ARE TRAINED TO BE IN CONTROL so according to this the first thing you do is pull out both your gun and shield and draw on the person threatening your loved one, identify yourself and tell him to drop the weapon or else.

The guy responds that he is on the job and has no ID on him and BEING A LEO HE IS TRAINED TO ALSO NEVER GIVE UP HIS GUN AND TO BE THE ONE IN CONTROL SO HE WOULD NOT GIVE UP HIS WEAPON.

What do you do?

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 05:47 PM
Good point Bruchi. They are each other's "worst nightmare"

jcoiii
February 8, 2006, 06:08 PM
If I (a cop) come across an armed individual holding my family member, as described above, the off-duty guy and I are going to talk. My first action is drawing and saying "POLICE!!! Drop the Gun!" If he says that he's a cop too, I'm going to ask for ID of some kind. If he says he has none, I'm going to talk to him (which means he's not shooting my family member.) If this is indeed a cop, and they are holding my family member, then they are waiting for a uniformed guy to come make an arrest or waiting for backup. They are not holding my family member at gun point with the express purpose of shooting them.

I will have my ID on me and show it. I optimistically think we can talk about this. The scene I'm envisioning has my family member prone, face down and the officer most likely standing with weapon pointed at them or straddling them in order to cuff/control. I believe that I can tell if the person holding the gun is doing something in an LEO manner or not. Let me try and illustrate what I mean in that regard:

Someone holding my family member in this manner: my family member (f-m) is either on their stomach, knees or feet and facing away from the person with gun. The off duty cop (ODC) is standing in a more or less traditional firing stance and giving orders in a commanding voice, or in some way "controlling" the situation. If the someone holding my family member is talking in a less than "professional" way (i.e. slang, cursing, etc.) that's one strike against them being LE. Also, if they are touching my family member with the gun (ie-against their head/body), that's also not a sound tactic taught to LEOs.

Now, I also believe that once I show my ID/badge, the situation can de-escalate. We can all wait for the on-duty cops to show up and sort it out.

(realize that I am actually writing from both sides here, as I can only base how the Off-duty cop would react based on how I would most likely react if another cop challenged me while I was holding his/her family member at gunpoint)

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 06:20 PM
Thank you Jociii,
To me, that is a thoughtful way of handling the situation that can be learned from and seeks to defuse the situation.


However, what if he is not handling the brother in a "LEO" way (On the ground etc.). Suppose the brother standing there having a gun pointed at him. Doesn't too much talking lead to distraction? Again, my way of thinking is if you have the edge (you have the drop on him) and you have no way of knowing at this point if he is legitimate shouldn't you use that advantage to de facto take control of the situation and temporarily disarm him? (speaking and acting towards him in a calm and collected manner)

I think you bring up a good point on the manner of the so-said cop. I think everything should be taken into account (no one thing per se): The way he speaks, the way he is dressed, the way he carries himself, etc. And likewise if you are presented in the same manner (like not dressed like a gang banger) it will help put him at ease if he is a real policeman

stephen426
February 8, 2006, 06:27 PM
I hate to admit it but I believe that the typical LEO would react the way shooter_john described. If I were an LEO, I would engage the threat immediately. Think about this guys. Bad guys will sometimes have accomplices. Do you think a real LEO would give up their weapon to the bad guy's accomplice? Cases of mistaken identity have occured before. Your brother can resemble the sketchy description of a convenience store clerk that just got robbed.

I think that common sense must prevail here. You guys need to engage your eyes and your brains before engaging your targets. I'm not saying to wait for the bad guy to blow your brother's brains out but LEO's and bad guys tend to act differently. If your brother is spread up against a car and getting frisked with his hands behind his head, chances are you are dealing with LEO (Would your brother act that way if he wasn't dealing with a LEO). Even undercover LEOs tend to drive vehicles that are obviously LEO (discreet lights, license plates, extra antennas, Crown Victorias or something similar....

If the unknown subject has a gun pressed to you brother's back and appears to be robbing your brother, then you react appropriately (don't forget you are in a public place where a bad guy will not want to be conspicuous). I would watch for a few seconds and try to assess the situation as well as possible BEFORE acting.

If I was led to believe that I was dealing with a bad guy, I would consider drawing. One thing you guys failed to consider was a possible "hostage" tyoe stand off. Say you are dealing with a bad guy and he grabs your brother in a choke hold and puts the gun to his head. He then demands that you drop you weapon and your wallet or else he will blow your brother's head off. Do you risk the shot, risk your brother getting shot, or do you comply? If the bad guy is not out right shooting your brother, maybe it is better to wait until your brother is out of danger and then confront the bad guy. If you confront the bad guy at that time and then end up shooting him, you are guilty of using deadly force to protect property.

There are a couple of scenarios that are much more obvious. If someone is shoving my wife inside her car and getting in after her, I will sneak up on him and put a bullet in his brain before he even knows what hit him. I don't give a damn if it is LEO. No LEO in his right mind would be putting someone in their own car and then getting in after them, especially at gun point. Sounds like a car jacking leading to a rape to me.

stephen426
February 8, 2006, 06:31 PM
Doug .38PR,

Don't let the officer's style of clothes fool you. You could be dealing with either an anti gang unit or undercover narcotics. I'm sure they don't go around dressed in shirts and ties. If they are making an arrest though, they should be doing so in the "proper" way. jcoiii got the jump on me with his post so sorry if much if his "theme" is repeated in my post.

Doug.38PR
February 8, 2006, 06:36 PM
stephen,
as I said, you can't take any one feature alone but take it all together into account. It isn't a deciding factor, but it does direct you.

If I was led to believe that I was dealing with a bad guy, I would consider drawing. One thing you guys failed to consider was a possible "hostage" tyoe stand off. Say you are dealing with a bad guy and he grabs your brother in a choke hold and puts the gun to his head. He then demands that you drop you weapon and your wallet or else he will blow your brother's head off. Do you risk the shot, risk your brother getting shot, or do you comply? If the bad guy is not out right shooting your brother, maybe it is better to wait until your brother is out of danger and then confront the bad guy. If you confront the bad guy at that time and then end up shooting him, you are guilty of using deadly force to protect property.

This gives a pretty good argument for NOT hesitating and talking too much. Pull your gun quick and cover him. Get him under control and if he doesn't comply, shoot. stop the situation before it becomes a hostage situation

Glenn E. Meyer
February 8, 2006, 06:40 PM
Just to say again, I have seen FOF folks held at gunpoint with a person talking. They were shot repeatedly before they could get a shot off.

Maybe someone thinks they are hot stuff but I suggest you try this before you opine that you won't be shot.

Also, even if you shoot - you seem to have the opinion that your shot is instantly disabling - don't count on it.

Also, I might remind you that some folks are taught that when holding a person at gun point and threatened - shoot the person in front of you immediately and whirl to engage the other as they will be standing there with their mouth opinion - unless well trained.

Someone has also mentioned backup - crooks and cops might have it. Again, in FOF, when the gunfight starts - you say: Why, O dear I have commandoed this dude and now someone else is shooting me.

Ok- in a convenience store robbery - I'm in line in back of a BG shooter. He shoots the clerk. I draw and take him down and tell him not to move. I'm drawn on by his backup. I shoot him (as he is talking). General gunfight continues.

I think there is a touch too much of assuming the plan goes your way when you take out the gun. It might but in this one, I return to the verbal challenge approach. That will distract the ambiguous gun dude. If he is a real bad guy, brother can do the Chuck Norris on him or flee. It will be disambiguated. Of course, if unknown to you, your brother is a criminal, then the cop will be mad at you. Don't count on your brother to come back for you. :D

stephen426
February 8, 2006, 07:01 PM
This gives a pretty good argument for NOT hesitating and talking too much. Pull your gun quick and cover him. Get him under control and if he doesn't comply, shoot. stop the situation before it becomes a hostage situation

Doug,

I am assuming that you are taking your position from the point of view that you have already confronted the person holding your brother at gun point. I guess that leaves you few options. My point of view is maybe you should consider observing for just a moment before deciding to confront the subject. The subject does not know if you are related or if you even know each other at all (unless you are twins and dress alike :rolleyes: :p ) Like we both agreed, the differences are pretty clear between the way a LEO would act and the way a bad guy would act. It is much better to acertain the situation rather than acting without thinking.

Are you willing to shoot without confronting the unknown subject, assuming you are firing from a position of cover and have a reasonably good shot? So far the unknow subject has not shot your brother. If he was planning to do so, your brother would probably be a bloody heap on the floor. In that case, blast away. Most robbers don't want to shoot someone and end up with a murder rap. (I also know that some coked up SOBs don't give a crap and would just a soon shoot their own mother if they didn't cough up the dough for their next fix) It is always better to have more information than to show your hand too early. Your pocket aces may get trumped by lowly trip 2s (sorry, I just played poker yesterday so I'm still in poker mode :cool: :D )

jcoiii
February 8, 2006, 07:10 PM
This has been mentioned,but to reiterate...

If this guy was going to shoot your family member, they'd probably already be shot, in which case I'd go with the assumption that it was probably not LEO.

OneInTheChamber
February 8, 2006, 08:23 PM
I'd yell at him from a distance (say 20-30 feet), in a position over cover, with my gun out, but out of sight too (behind cover). You'll be able to tell by his reaction and tone whether he is legit or not. Chances are he's legit.

If you draw on a cop it's not going to be good. He's not going to put down his gun. If anything he'll order you to put yours down. If you don't, you will go to jail for it; or worse.

It is a bad situation at best. I don't think an off duty LEO is going to be holding him with a gun up against his chest like a BG would. I think an LEO is much more likely to take him to the ground, and put him in a hold/cuffs. Also look at how your brother is acting. Is he scared? Or does he look like he is trying to explain things to a cop? That will be a big factor on how you act.

Blackwater OPS
February 8, 2006, 09:25 PM
#1 I walk around the corner and see my Mother/Wife (I know thread said brother, but I don't have one) held at GP by a non-uniformed person with no ID visible. -Target gets engaged ASAP, head shots.

#2 I am off duty, and someone's life is in danger(only time I would do it), so I have drawn my weapon on a suspect. Another suspect shows up and is exibiting a firearm.
Second suspect gets engaged ASAP, centermass, then I attept to secure first suspect, if he has a weapon out at that time, suspect gets engaged ASAP, centermass.

#3 I am on duty, but plain clothes. The only experience I have with this is counter-terror and PSD(working with the secret service or Diplomatic Security) so, if I have drawn my weapon it is because I have percieved a threat or #2 applies. Another suspect shows up and is exibiting a firearm.
First suspect gets 1 HS, second gets engaged centermass.

So, based on my training, exp. and general thoughts on staying alive, thats how I would respond. It may not be perfect and it's open to review, but that is my take.

stephen426
February 8, 2006, 09:53 PM
Sorry to say Blackwater OPS but you must have a get out of jail free card that we don't. Maybe you are responding the way you did because you substituted your mother or your wife in place of your brother. Women rarely commit crimes where they would need to be held a gun point (compared to guys that is). Lets say it was a good male friend of yours rather than your wife or sister. You don't believe that they are capable of doing anything wrong but there is always the case of mistaken identity. You also mentioned that you would engage the target ASAP. Like I said, engage your eyes and your brain before you engage your target. I don't have diplomatic immunity or any other get out of jail card. I prefer to assess the situation first before becoming some big man's piece of booty in the big house. If the assessment is that the threat is indeed a bad guy, I'd pop him in the melon in a heartbeat.

Chris Phelps
February 8, 2006, 10:47 PM
I have definitly drawn the conclusion that the current LEO's should NOT be in the position they are in.


OK... I will put myself in the position of the LEO. I am holding a percieved BG at gunpoint, when a voice from behind says "drop your weapon!"

I identify myself as an officer. The voice behind me asks for ID. Instantly I would know this is a reasonable person and not someone who wants to kill me. Think about it... if they knew what was going on, and they were another BG, they would scream something along the lines of "fk you pig!"

I would not instantly assume I was going to die... this is assanine. People who want to shoot you do not try to get your weapon out of your hand. What kind of BS are you LEO's spewing out about?

In all seriousness... inspired by current LEO posts here... I would shoot you without hesitation in this situation. Its obvious you dont feel anyone should walk out of this alive... Not if someone has the NERVE to think you might be a BG. I really don't understand your logic, and there is definitly no way I would stake my life or my brothers on the possibility that you would have more common sense when actually put in this situation than what you have sitting behind a computer screen with all the time in the world to play the situation out in your head.

Just because I ordered your firearm down does NOT mean I am uncompliant. What it DOES mean is "hey, I dont want anyone to get shot, but you are an unknown person with a firearm pointed at a loved one." I'd like to believe that every cop in the nation would understand this and simply ID themselves and tell me to drop my weapon, which I would gladly do after they have been ID'd. But, I guess with all the Barney Fife's running this country, its easier to kill you and let the judge sort it out.


One last thing though... ask your wife/parents/kids how they would feel about your actions in this situation. I'd hate to be the one to tell them you died needlessly because you didnt feel the need to ID yourself.

superpelly
February 8, 2006, 10:54 PM
I'm surrounded by idiots!! from the Lion King movie.

armedandsafe
February 8, 2006, 11:15 PM
Brother, sister or grandson, he's going on the ground with the gunholder. Brother is going on the ground first, because he's unarmed and already stopped. LEO is going on the ground because I have the advantage, assuming I'm not already in the line of fire.

Putting them both on the ground should ease the mind of the LEO at least a little bit.

I did draw on two plainclothes officer once and came out on top and ok, because I had the advantage of cover, surprise and their guns were empty. (Long story, but funny NOW.) I drew on another plainschothes cop and ended up helping him out of a dicey situation, because I recognised him after I moved around to his side.

The scene will play out in as many different ways as there are plainsclothes oficers, because each one is going to react differently. That is an opinion and might be worth about the paper it is printed on.

Pops

shooter_john
February 8, 2006, 11:17 PM
Wow- I have dinner and visit with my wife for a while and now I have become Rambo!:D
I don't know anyone at TFL personally, and will not dare talk to you like your an idiot or make statements about your level of competence in your profession like a couple of people here have done, but there seems to be a great lack of knowledge in how LEO's are trained in some of the replies to this topic.
To think that you are going to give orders to a police offer who is involved in a situation and make him do what you want is quite... :eek: Rambo-esque?
I'm gald to see that there are some logical thinkers in the bunch who would choose to observe the situation and then get involved if necessary rather than just shooting a police officer. If you pay attention to what is going on, I don't think it could take more than a couple of seconds to determine a legit LEO from BG.
Unfortunately, it is a little harder to trust people anymore, so LEO's and even more so RESPONSIBLE armed citizen's must be on their toe's more than ever. Know what you're getting into before you open fire on someone who has ID'ed themself as LEO and appears that they are legit. That being said, I would hope that said LEO is acting professionally and as courteously as you/ the person he is dealing with will let them.

To: Bruchi
That is a seriously bad situation, but if it played out just like you said it did, then I think that I would be fairly confident that I was indeed dealing with a fellow LEO. If he wasn't, we would would've probaly gotten into a gunfight before any of that conversation took place.

And finally...:)
One of you RAMBO's reply to a Police Officer's order or Verbal ID with 'We'll see about that!' and then let me know how that goes for you!:D

shooter_john
February 8, 2006, 11:27 PM
Ok- Sidenote from me, AKA Barney Rambo Fyfe. I apologize for assuming intelligence- but If I had to get involved in an off duty situation, I would ID myself both verbally and with my badge and ID before I even drew my weapon if at all possible.
That way when the crazed brother/ bad guy/ itchin to kill somebody Rambo guy comes running around the corner with a gun pointed at me, Me and all of the other witnesses (we're at Walmart right?) can tell the grand jury 'He yelled Police drop the weapon' and he had a badge and ID visible, but the guy did not comply, and that is when the officer shot him.

Blackwater OPS
February 8, 2006, 11:52 PM
'He yelled Police drop the weapon' and he had a badge and ID visible,
This is SOP, I assumed folks would realize any legit LEO would do this, and I did not include it in my post. Obviously we are not just going to draw our weapons and start pointing them at people with no explaination. I would not do that even if in uniform and having just exited my marked patrol car with fancy flashing lights and everything.

Putting them both on the ground should ease the mind of the LEO at least a little bit.
Keep dreaming.

I'm surrounded by idiots!! from the lion king.
No comment.

I find it interesting that the people who seem most like "wannabe cops" are the first ones to starting bashing LEOs for whatever reason.

#18indycolts
February 9, 2006, 01:10 AM
whatever BAD things happen because of this seems warranted. The guy gets shot even if he's a cop...sorry for him. You get shot and he is a real cop, sorry for you. I wanna think cops are smarter than to get into a situation like this. But, I'm sorry to say (and yes, I have many a cop friend) some cops, like anyone else are prone to being human and making mistakes.

SrtDog
February 9, 2006, 01:40 AM
I'm a cop for 10 years now.

#1. I am a staunch advocate for gun rights.
#2. Especially while on duty, I am NEVER putting my gun down.
#3. If someone points a gun at me (like in the Wal-Mart scenario), I'm telling them one time that I'm a cop, and to point it somewhere else. Thats happening while I'm finding cover, and forgetting about that skel I had. After that, someone's getting shot.
#4. If you're off duty, and carrying without a badge, you're wrong.
#5. You shoot a cop, especially one who you know is a cop, you get the needle.

CC is fine. When you start pointing your gun at the police, odds are you're at the very least getting arrested. But the reality of it is you're going to probably be paying some major heath insurance deductables in the very near future.

And if someone really thinks that they can order a cop to drop his weapon, ya been watching too many movies. I would like everyone to ask their cop friends to see if they would drop their weapon if some joe nobody pointed a gun at them while they were arresting someone. When ya do, send me a private message and tell me how long they laughed.

And blackwater, you would without doubt get the needle for shootin a cop who was executing an arrest. Ignorance is never an excuse. Just because you dont know something is illegal does not give you an excuse to commit a crime. (i.e. "I didnt know he was a cop") We're not talking about a Wal-Mart in Iraq, or the wild wild west. Think then act.

Ya'll can flame me if ya want, but I'm just callin it like I see it.

#18indycolts
February 9, 2006, 01:48 AM
srtdog-very well said!

Sir William
February 9, 2006, 02:29 AM
I once made a felony arrest while off duty. I was wearing Umbros and a t-shirt. I had my badge and ID card with photo on me as required. My thought is simple, why rush into anything? If the IDd LEO is NOT an active shooter, why make them nervous? Back off, back down and back to cover. Call 911 and explain the situation. Stay on the phone with the TCO. Ask them to have one (or all) responding units to run hot with lights and siren. If you and your brother are calm, the LEO is calm and the coroner collects no body. YOU are entitled to an autopsy for stupidity. Slow down and move to cover, establish 911 contact and simply let things unfold, making things happen is usually bad or fatal. Relax and get the facts.

Powderman
February 9, 2006, 02:51 AM
1) He is in plain clothes, you don't know who he is, get him disarmed and under control.


Like Erick said, this is NOT going to happen.

We are trained to NEVER surrender your weapon, under any circumstances. Think about it.

If I am holding someone at gunpoint--let's say, a hostage situation--and BG says, "Drop the weapon or I'll kill him/her", the only thing I am accomplishing by dropping my weapon is to give the BG two hostages. Moreover, I have almost certainly thrown my life away, as well as the hostage's.

This is what I would do, if I had someone at gunpoint--off duty--and someone came around a corner with a gun pointed...

BANG!

Here's a test, to be done with a friend with two cap pistols.

Simulate holding someone at gunpoint. Have your friend come around a corner.

Now, as fast as you can, flip your hand to the side, and crank off a round. Don't aim, just do it.

I can almost guarantee that you will get your round or rounds off before the second party can even pull the trigger.

So, what do you do?

BACK OFF. This is what cell phones are for.

Chances are, the LEO has his or her badge in plain view. You just might not see it. Call 911, ask for a priority response.

If the person is a real cop, they will appreciate your response.

If it is a BG, they'll find that their life just got real exciting. :eek:

Do NOT show yourself. Do NOT challenge the person. Do NOT surrender your cover.

And keep your sidearm holstered.

RsqVet
February 9, 2006, 03:56 AM
Doug --- It disgusts me to see you insult and impune the integraty of anyone here, twice as much for a cop that you have not even met or know.

Cops of course are trained to dominate a situation --- that is their JOB -- go into harms way, stop what is happening, take the stories and sort it all out -- to do this they HAVE to take controll, to protect everyone, first and formost themselves, they want to go home at the end of the day. Your compleate and utter failure to understand this is shocking though perhaps is should not be commming from a person who recently wanted to re-write the rules of gun handleing to include putting your finger in the trigger guard!

I personally think that the scenario is a good one and mirriors one of the more difficult ones presents in several classes I have taken.

A few important points :

1. A real LEO should be no danger and is already having a very, very bad day as if it was a UC bust or something there would be more than one of them so you are walking in on an already volitle situation.

2. Something pretty bad must have already gone down for any LEO to have a suspect held at gunpoint --- this is not going to be an first response to say a fleeing shop lifter, a public domestic dispute or argument that an off duty might find themsleves involved with.

3. Most fake LEO crimes occur in places where there will be no witnesses and little chance of the summoning of the real cops, not a Wal Mart parking lot.

4. In the intal response to a situation like this the best inital response of seeking cover, calling 911 and further evaluating is probibly nearly always the best bet -- you are there to track, montor and interveave as needed, you can always draw, and proceed but it's hard to pull a slug back, plus if this is as bad of a situation as you think some cover and tactical advantage of suprise is going to offten help with a good resolution, not hurt it --- sure I am the first to say if you are in the near vicinity of an armed robbery and have a clean shot take it, don't wait to find out if they plan to leave no witnesses, however this ain't that situation, it needs to be figure out way more before you are weapons free.

5. From all the LEO's I have hung with I would say it's very plausable that a badge might not be immediatly evident as a shield on a neck chain, belt or handing from a hip pack just is not going to be that visable except front on which is unlikely the view you will be getting.

That being said there ain't an easy resposne to this and some subjective factors are gona come in (is the supposed LEO holding a hi-point) however it merits prudance more than immediate action

Chris Phelps
February 9, 2006, 09:05 AM
OK... shooter john and I cleared up our part VIA private message. It appears I am getting lumped in as one of the 'uncooperative' types.

This is EXACTLY how I see it going...

First off... the scenerio started with you walking around the corner to an already drawn weapon. Regardless of weather or not the officer Id's himself to your brother... you were NOT there to hear it.

With that in mind... here goes..


Me: Drop your weapon!!

Them: I am a police officer....

Me: (after lowering weapon) Do you have ID?

Them: *shows me ID*

Me: *reholster and opologize. follow police commands from this point out*



I am not ready to just simply shoot anyone, but to stumble around someone holding my brother, an upstanding citizen, at gun point is definitly going to warrent a reaction other than just standing there and possibly watching my brother get executed.

However... I really feel that if the LEO acts like a professional than everything will turn out OK. I would never respond with "we'll see" or attempt to command someone who has said they were LEO. That would be silly on my part, and definitly a good way to start a gun fight.


The miscommunication, I think, came from people attempting to lump everyone into two catagories. What I was seeing was this...


Me: Drop your weapon!
LEO: *turns and opens fire*


Think about that for just a second. If you believed this was how it was going to happen, would you decide to simply engage without saying a word?




Shooter John... thanks for the PM. I feel a lot better now, knowing you are a true professional, and not someone who is just going to open fire on me.

bruchi
February 9, 2006, 10:50 AM
Ok I missed the part where we are at a brightly lit Walmart's and there are all this witnesses around and the LEO has already indentified himself, in that situation I keep my gun covert as I am licensed to do and I am calling a lawyer on the cell phone and assuring my brother that everyting is going to be ok, to cooperate with the LEO. Again, handcuffs can be latter taken off.

As I understood this it was more a scenario where you turned around a corner, perhaps at night, maybe even in a dicey part of town, lets say into some deserted parking lot, alley, etc. and some guy in plain clothes was holding your brother at gunpoint, this does not mean necessarily with the gun against my brother's skin, it can be just trained on him, and this person has no visible id making it clear he was a LEO.

That changes things dramatically.

Also I never ask the LEO to drop his weapon, rather to holster it and cuff my brother, perhaps still not a perfect scenario for a LEO trained to never give up his gun and stay in control of the situation but face it, NO ONE that has someone behind him with a gun pointed at him is in control of anything, maybe that's where the Rambo comments come from. This is a battle you already lost, face it. Make the better of it.

To the LEOS here please remember that as I see this scenario. I have you at gunpoint and your back is turned to me, your weapon trained away from me, mine on you. Maybe I have tiny 38 and never shot a gun before or maybe I hae a very reliable 45 with Glassers and I am a well trained and experienced on leave seal, ranger, etc. with a lot of actual battle time under my belt.

Hoping to reach a "happy medium" and what I would consider if I placed myself in the shoes of the LEO a better option than getting shot I would show him that I have a permit for a gun, that I do not have any intention in shooting him but want to protect my brother from an unknown treath, that under the circustances I can't tell just by looking at him he is indeed a LEO, that I do have the drop on him but will let him holster his weapon, cuff my brother and call for backup.

Not a Ramboesque out for a trained LEO but I would think more reasonable than getting blown away for "must follow the book" mentality.

Derius_T
February 9, 2006, 11:27 AM
There are bad comments and reactions on both sides. This is what we trained for as a nightmare or no win scenario. The thing that disturbs me the most, are the leos on this forum who intimate that they would instantly turn and shoot you. I was trained to always comply with an ID'd LEO, and would want to do so. But if I calmly ask a man or his ID, and he responds only by whirling around and trying to shoot me immediately, I instantly think he is a bad guy and plug him. After all, why in the hell would a real leo whirl and shoot after simply being asked for ID? That is the kind of thing desperate criminals do, and desperate criminals get shot.

Leos have to learn that in this day and age they work among a largely armed populous, who happen to be good guys, and need to drop the "I am god and you will do what I say" attitude. No upstanding citizen wants to shoot ANYONE really, let alone a LEO. But to immediately whirl to shoot when asked for ID FAIRLY SCREAMS Bad Guy to me, and may sadly result in a very bad day for someone.....

okiejack
February 9, 2006, 12:12 PM
Hypothetically in a few blinks of an eye! Meanwhile I limp out of WalMart trying to remember what my wife sent me to buy. I round the corner not noticing the people with drawn weapons. As I near the standoff my cell phone vibrates. I hear people yealing too but I can't understand what they are saying. (Since I'm pretty well deaf.) I go for my cell phone in my jacket pocket. The suspected badguy (whose really an undercover FBI agent) shouts, does a roll to the right while drawing his weapon and shoots all three of us.

I really enjoyed reading this thread and got to looking at it from my unarmed personal point of view.

stephen426
February 9, 2006, 12:15 PM
Chris Phelps,

Think about the phase you used upon first confronting the unknown subject with a gun on your brother...

Me: Drop your weapon!!

How do you think the officer will respond to that command? Should he assume you are just a law abiding citizen trying to help out your fellow citizen or do you think he might feel you are an accomplice. Do you really expect him to calmly respond that he is a LEO if he feels you might be an accomplice? I'm not saying he should start blasting right away, but he would most probably turn his weapon on you , announce that he is a LEO and give you a few quick seconds to drop you weapon and get on the floor. If you fail to do so, I would not fault the officer for shooting you. There is nothing Ramboesque about this reaction. You are pointing a gun an a law enforcement officer and for all he knows, you are an accomplice to the man he is arresting.

Think about the situation. The officer should already be tense from making an arrest at gun point. If he doesn't have any apparent back up, do you really expect him to comply with your demands, much less give up his gun and show you ID? The idea is ridiculous. Now if you announce that you are a police officer and that he should drop his weapon, that is another story altogether.

stephen426
February 9, 2006, 12:23 PM
Derius_T,

You have to take position here. Are you speaking from the point of view that you have already drawn on the armed subject or are you asking for identification before you draw. These are 2 very different situations and warrent very different responses from the armed subject. If you have not drawn, I would expect a reply such as "This is police business. Move on." I would see no problem for the officer to then flash you his badge.

If you are pointing a gun at him, I don't care how calmly you ask for ID. He will most likely announce he is a LEO and order you to drop your weapon and "assume the position" on the ground. Failure to comply and he will most likely shoot.

Here comes the biggest issue. Do you believe the armed subject and do you comply or do you demand that he drop his weapon until his identity can be acertained by calling 911. I don't think this is realistic either.

Mikeyboy
February 9, 2006, 12:43 PM
We have been going around and around on this one....can we all at least agree that;

1) a LEO will not surrender his/her weapon to an armed civilian during an arrest.

2) If an armed civilian is pointing their weapon at a person claiming to be LEO, they should give him/her a chance to present ID.

3) This situation will be rare because when X sees Y's gun, and Y sees X's guns everyone will start shooting and we are still not sure if Z is guilty of a crime.

Chris Phelps
February 9, 2006, 01:18 PM
Senior Member

Join Date: 10-31-2005
Posts: 540

We have been going around and around on this one....can we all at least agree that;

1) a LEO will not surrender his/her weapon to an armed civilian during an arrest.

2) If an armed civilian is pointing their weapon at a person claiming to be LEO, they should give him/her a chance to present ID.

3) This situation will be rare because when X sees Y's gun, and Y sees X's guns everyone will start shooting and we are still not sure if Z is guilty of a crime.


Ahh but in this situation... X will see Y's gun... but Y wont know who is behind him.



How do you think the officer will respond to that command? Should he assume you are just a law abiding citizen trying to help out your fellow citizen or do you think he might feel you are an accomplice. Do you really expect him to calmly respond that he is a LEO if he feels you might be an accomplice?

I think he should assume everyone is a bad guy... but realize that there is an armed person behind him and not make any sudden movements.

If I was in his shoes and someone commanded me to drop my weapon I would most likely either A) Announce that I was LEO while not moving, then wait for a response... or I would B) seek cover and then proceed to identify myself. I would not turn around for any reason... this is a good way to get shot. Once I have found cover and identified myself, I would respnd as I see fit, depending on their response.


As a Civilian, I feel that I would not be in the wrong for taking these actions. I would definitly lower my weapon upon verbal confirmation of ID, and upon seeing a badge or ID, either holster my weapon or set it on the ground depending on what the officer's directions were. I wouldnt worry much about fake badges if this was during the day with witnesses around.

This is definitly a bad situation, but a LEO who turns his gun on me is only going to make it worse. After all... do you think LEO's are the only ones who feel threatened by fast movements?

Derius_T
February 9, 2006, 03:27 PM
Stephen426, I would like to say I would ask for ID before drawing. I would think the LEO would only be too happy to show it. If he doesn't, I move away from him to cover and say loudly that I am dialing 911. (Loudly enough for ANYONE in the immediate area to hear)

But, if I were to draw 1st, then request that he ID himself, I would certainly not expect to be instantly whirled and fired upon. In my mind, a LEO would identify himself. A BG who is scared that the jig is up would whirl and try to shoot me. Why would a real leo instantly try to murder me if I ask for ID? That just doesn't say LEO to me. It says murdering crook....

bruchi
February 9, 2006, 04:00 PM
Resuming my point of view on this.

I walk into anyone pointing a gun at my brother and he sees me comming, alone or in a crowd I am not going for my gun, that would be asking to be shot no matter who is behind the already drawn gun, period.

I ask what's up, if he claims to be a LEO I ask for ID and offer assistance calling 911 while he cuffs my brother. Depending on how he reacts to this then one reacts accordingly. I am just another passerby offering to call 911 after all. My brother knows to keep his mouth shut in a situation like this.

I walk into the same scenario unseen by the gunman, not clearly identified LEO or BG I am going for my gun first, that is in essence why civilians carry. I have the upper hand and want to keep it in case it is a BG. If I tell the gunman that I have a gun on him and he tells me he is a LEO I want proof, I want to see a shield, a set of cuffs, if there are witnesses around I'll drop the gun after ID is produced, if it is a lonely dark alley I don't think so.

Now this is where it gets dicey, same scenario LEO is lone undercover with no ID, not even a set of cuffs, just his word. He better drop his gun and wait for backup.

Same scenario, armed LEO, Chuck Norris or BG whips around to point gun at me without a word, he is getting pumped full of lead until he drops for good or I am out of ammo.

urbanassault
February 9, 2006, 04:02 PM
bang


joking.....jeez

But seriously my little brother (17) actually had an officer order him out of his car at gun point at target parking lot and handcuffed him. HE TOOK BATTERIES

SBrocker8
February 9, 2006, 04:27 PM
Well, I'm certainly glad to know that the god complex in many LEO's hasn't changed. As someone stated earlier, many LEO's need to just calm the hell down and realize that they are NOT God, they are NOT our masters, and we are NOT serfs who exist to please them.

Powderman
February 9, 2006, 04:34 PM
Well, I'm certainly glad to know that the god complex in many LEO's hasn't changed. As someone stated earlier, many LEO's need to just calm the hell down and realize that they are NOT God, they are NOT our masters, and we are NOT serfs who exist to please them.

Well, I was wondering when the first bash would be. I am pleasantly surprised that the thread ran this long without one.

Since all possibility of normal, courteous (and sometimes spirited) and civil conversation just flew out the window, I'm done with this thread. Have a good one, y'all.

Powderman
February 9, 2006, 04:35 PM
OK, one more post.

SBrocker8, I just looked at your profile.

Are you SURE you want to be a cop? :eek:

Just asking....

urbanassault
February 9, 2006, 04:37 PM
Comon, he does have a point. When an LEO pulls a gun on a 17 year old kid sitting in his car in the parking lot of Target for taking a pack of batteries its kind of rediculous. About 6 months (he was 16) before this he was sitting in a Kohls parking lot in his car a LEO pulled in in front of his car (to block him in) and searched through his car and patted him down and searched his pockets because he thought my brother was doing a drug deal. Guess what he was clean, the abuse of authority can get rediculous.

Blackwater OPS
February 9, 2006, 05:59 PM
order him out of his car at gun point
A car is a deadly weapon. Think about it.

and searched through his car
Your brother almost certainly gave permission. If he did not well, there are cops who should be doing something else.

SBrocker8
Like I said, the wannabes who can't make it are the first to bash.

SrtDog
February 9, 2006, 08:02 PM
SBrocker8, I've heard what you just said a number of times. Everytime I get a collar, some dumb hump wants to start talkin like you. You...are a criminal. And are cops cocky? You're damn right we are. Maybe you would prefer to have a group of spineless do nothings policing your neighborhood? SBrocker8, my only hope is that you dont ever become a cop. I hope that you lie about your knees, and go into the Army. Maybe they will make a man out of you, and help you to not be such a whiny little girl. Maybe

And here's how the conversation in the original situation would go with 9 out of 10 cops:

#1
Me: Drop that fu#king gun, or I will shoot you in the head. I'm a cop you fu#kin retard!

Other Guy: OK, I'm dropping it.

Me: Now get on your knees with your hands above your head, and cross your ankles.

#2
Me: Drop that fu#king gun, or I will shoot you in the head. I'm a cop you fu#kin retard!

Other Guy: No, you drop yours!

Me: Central, call a supervisor and an ambulance to Wal-Mart, I've just shot an armed person, in the head.

Blackwater OPS
February 9, 2006, 08:42 PM
I guess I'm the 1 in 10 that would not ask the guy pointing a gun at me to put it down. Seriously, am I missing something here? Sure, in either case if the guy w/ the gun is an LEO or a concerned citizen you do not want to shoot them. But if they are not, if they are an armed perp with 2 felonies and you are between him and freedom or 25 to life do you really believe the guy is going to argue about dropping the gun? It will go more like this-

You: Drop that fu#king gun, or I will shoot you in the head. I'm a cop you fu#kin retard!

Other Guy: BANG BANG BANG

You: No fair you were supposed to argue with me or something!!! This is not like the movies at all!

St. Peter: It's better to be tried by 12 then carried by six!

SrtDog
February 9, 2006, 08:59 PM
I've heard that 12 Vs. 6 saying a million times. Its one of the silliest sayings there is.

Shoot without knowing whats going on. Good policy.
We arent talking about being in Mog or Baghdad. We are talking about the United States of America.
Your response is that of a soldier. Mine is that of a cop. You just go and shoot someone who has someone at gunpoint who tells you he's a cop, and even remotely resembles a cop...well, you'll be testing out that 12 Vs 6 theory. And trust me, you will get the death penalty. If you believe otherwise, ya got to explain why. I guess I just dont get it.

bruchi
February 9, 2006, 11:15 PM
I do have the upmost respect for LEOS, not only they put themselves in harms way every day but they take on the responsability of having to use deadly force, all of this to protect the rest of us. Some say that it is easier to die for what you believe than to kill for it.

I rememeber once in my days of driving a cab in LA when at night one of the front lights on my taxi was out of order, this is a signal nationwide used by cabbies via a hidden switch to tell LEOS that they are in trouble. A patrol car came by, flashed it's lights for me to stop, one of the officers came out drew his gun and aimed it inches away from my back seat passenger's head, then the other came out gun in hand to ask me if everything was ok. I explained about the busted light and they went their way. The passenger soiled his undies, I was glad they where there for me even if it was a false alarm.

But LEOS are human and humans are not perfect, this is evident by all the LEOS here that insist on that they will ask the person that has a gun pointing at their back to drop the fu#king gun or they will turn around, locate the target, aim and shoot them dead faster than the other guy can just pull a trigger. BG or concerned civilian, they are asking to get shot.

Food for tought for all of you LEOS, studies have shown that those of you that have a 95% accuracy at the range, when in a real situation where shooting is involved this accuracy drops to 15%.

And yes there are a lot of great LEOS out there but unfortunatelly some corrrupted ones, some that are just trigger happy and so on.

SrtDog
February 9, 2006, 11:38 PM
Well, its a good thing that what cops do dosent get monday morning quarterbacked to death. An undercover with no identification who dosent ID himself and shoots someone who dosent know hes a cop would never get a second look.

Still no reason for the cop to give warning? Maybe you didnt read the original situation in this post.

And what the hell does corrupt cops have to do with anything?
:confused:

bruchi
February 9, 2006, 11:53 PM
corruption makes for a breakup of moral fiber, a total one in the case of a corrupt LEO, add to this the round the clock paranoia of gettting caught, not the kind of person you want pointing a gun at a loved one.

EMB135Driver
February 10, 2006, 12:06 AM
What if when the alleged LEO turns around he is wearing a hockey mask and carrying a chainsaw in addition to his duty weapon.....then he suddenly begins singing and dancing like he is on broadway before a spaceship beams him, your brother, and you up with a tractor beam and takes you to the planet Zandu.

you have a vivid imagination.

bermo61
February 10, 2006, 12:12 AM
have him reach for his I.D. with his free hand. After he shows his I.D. you better lower your weapon...and start apologizing! ha ha

Rob P.
February 10, 2006, 12:24 AM
The thing I see in this hypothetical is that just about everyone forgets one MAJOR factor....

You (ahem) are not LEO and have no power to do anything except shoot IF you believe that your life or the life of another is in immediate danger.

Yelling at the guy with a gun pointed at your child, spouse, mother, etc is STUPID beyond belief. Shoot him in the back from behind cover and sort it out later. There's tons of stories where undercover cops have been shot by uniformed cops so how could it be so unthinkable that a CHL shoots an undercover cop who has his weapon pointed at the CHL's family member. A good lawyer will work wonders for your defense to the DA before it even gets to trial. And if it goes to trial, your defense is going to be based upon what the law REQUIRED you to do (defend life) and the fact that the LEO was undercover/off duty/rogue, failed to ID himself, and caused you to believe that either your life or the life of your immediate family member were in danger. A dead cop cannot refute your belief so you get the benefit of the doubt. Shoot him to slide lock and hit your target every time. But you better damn well be positive in your belief that the guy with the gun IS a BG and your family member had better be totally innocent of anything including parking tickets.

If the LEO (if he is truly LEO) has a gun pointed at your best friend in the approved LEO fashion, then I'd suggest you back off, dial 911 then announce yourself from cover and wait and see what's going down. There's a world of difference between family and best friend and you have no maternal/paternal instinct defense so shooting an actual undercover LEO who was arresting your best friend WILL get you a ticket to jail.

Remember, you only have the right to draw and shoot in self defense or the defense of another who is in imminent danger of death. Not arrest or detain the BG or yell before shooting, or any of the other silly notions that have been discussed here. If you believe then shoot the guy - it's why you carry.

And lastly, if the scenario is quiet without a lot of yelling, sirens, etc then it's likely the guy with the gun isn't LEO. Arrests in public parking lots tend to be noisy with a lot of commotion going on. Turning the corner at Walmart to find someone with a drawn weapon and no one even noticing is a giveaway that it's not an arrest.

And for you LEO's who are going to flame me for my opinion, if you are standing there with a gun pointed towards my family member while wearing flipflops, burmuda shorts and a Gilligan's Island T-shirt I ain't a gonna believe you're on duty LEO. And if you're not on duty, what the heck are you doing trying to forcibly arrest someone in that getup without backup. Off duty LEO shouldn't be permitted to arrest or detain unless life is in imminent danger. Other property crimes get the best witness possible.

And don't undercover cops get support so that "they" never have to be the one to make the actual arrest? Isn't that the job of their backup team?

My take, if the gun is pointed at immediate family just shoot him. If it's pointed at grown siblings/friends, call 911. And if your friend asks why you didn't shoot, explain the difference between protecting yourself/family and best friends. Best friends get to protect themselves cuz it ain't your job to do it for them.

SrtDog
February 10, 2006, 12:27 AM
bruchi, funny you should mention paranoia.

SrtDog
February 10, 2006, 12:33 AM
"Shoot him in the back, and sort it out later."

WOW

bruchi
February 10, 2006, 12:39 AM
I do have vivid imagination, I am an artist and yes I like guns too so it comes with the territory, unfortunatelly I am not one with such a good imagination to come up with alien abductions and very creative planet names!

I am sure that there are many mistakes on my scenario play book but I rather make them here and learn from others, some of you guys make incredibly good points, the recent one on rights and conditions in which you are allowed to pull out your gun is a very good one, we are not LEOS, we are not allowed to arrest anyone, seems the right for a civilian to exercise a civilian arrest does not allow the use of handguns.

What irks me beyong belief is the statement by LEOS which in general I have the ulmost respect for, that they will after asking for someone pointing a gun at them to drop it if they don't obey they will turn around and kill the guy.

I heard of suicide by cop but I did not knew that the reverse, LEO sucide by an armed civilian was part of LEOS training!

Rob P.
February 10, 2006, 01:10 AM
SRTDog,

Problem with that?

Lets expand the scene some then. Say you're in your home and your daughter just came home from a date. You hear her enter and decide to go downstairs to make sure she's OK. You get to the bottom of the stairs and there's a guy with a gun pointed at your child.

Do you: A) shoot him; B) ask for ID; or, C) dial 911 & run away?

Now, lets take the EXACT same situation but evaporate the house structure. You appear from behind a blocked viewpoint and some guy is holding a gun pointed at your child.

Explain to me how that's different (please skip the castle doctrine argument - there's a guy with a gun pointed at your loved one being the point here). In either case the guy with the gun could be LEO or could be a BG and you cannot tell from appearance if he is either.

Quick, what do you do? Had to think about it? Sorry, someone died because you couldn't make up your mind. Run away? Sorry, someone died because you startled the shooter. Yell for ID? Same deal. Dial 911? Sorry, someone died because there wasn't an available cop to come to the rescue in time.

If you come around a blind corner and see your immediate family being held at gunpoint by someone not immediately recognizable as LEO you are OBLIGATED to shoot the person holding the gun if you believe that there is an imminent threat to life. Be they LEO or BG. If you won't shoot an imminent threat, you have no business carrying. The trick is to recognize when you can and when you can't shoot and only the devil knows for sure which is which.

LEO want to go home at the end of their shift. To help them do that they get training and backup so that they'll almost never be in the described situation (alone, undercover, etc) and have to draw their weapon during an arrest. This gives credence to the idea that if a lone gunman is threatening my family I'm within my rights to shoot him as fast and as often as I can until he is no longer a threat to me or anyone else. To me that means shoot until slide lock, drop the mag & reload, then dial 911 and immediately say the words, "someone just tried to kill me and my ....." After that, let the DA try to prove you weren't in fear for your or your family members life.

Optical Serenity
February 10, 2006, 02:16 AM
It scares me that you guys even sit around and are so bored you come up with this stuff. I mean really! Who on earth thinks they are going to walk out of walmart, go around a corner, and see this? If the guy ID's himself as an LEO, you better walk back to cover and dial 911.

Drawing on ANYONE who already has a gun out is a bad idea. Anytime you can, retreat and call for backup, in your case, call 911.

And no, LEOs who are plain clothes NEVER work alone. And around here, its unheard of for plain clothes units to go in for a bust and not have uniformed black & whites right around the corner.

Rob P.
February 10, 2006, 02:36 AM
It scares me that you guys even sit around and are so bored you come up with this stuff. I mean really! Who on earth thinks they are going to walk out of walmart, go around a corner, and see this?

I do. It's called situational awareness and preparedness. If I expect to come upon a scene such as this then I'll be prepared to deal with it instead of standing there with my mouth open and doing nothing.

If the guy ID's himself as an LEO, you better walk back to cover and dial 911.

I'm not going to stop to talk to the guy or ask him anything. If the guy with the gun isn't instantly recognizable as a cop then my evaluation in a life or death situation will be to act as if he is not and there won't be any time for anyone to ID themself.

Drawing on ANYONE who already has a gun out is a bad idea. Anytime you can, retreat and call for backup, in your case, call 911.

I see you're a believer in the fantasy that 911 will protect you in an emergency. I'm not. While I'm standing there with my CCW in it's holster and my cellphone on hold with 911, my family member may die. If what you advocate is to call 911 and wait under any/all circumstances, then why carry at all?

To draw your weapon and fire should always be the last possible option. Unfortunately, sometimes it's the only option and one you need to use immediately and without warning.

Blackwater OPS
February 10, 2006, 03:28 AM
I'm not going to stop to talk to the guy or ask him anything. If the guy with the gun isn't instantly recognizable as a cop then my evaluation in a life or death situation will be to act as if he is not and there won't be any time for anyone to ID themself.
+1 This is all you can do.
The cop should be the one calling 911 and getting backup before even approaching, BEFORE the situation escalates into a gunfight. Once people are pointing guns at each other its a bit late to talk it out, I am not going to take the chance the other guy might decide to pull the trigger. Both people could be LEOs, it makes no difference. No one is their right mind would drop their own weapon while someone they have not positively IDed is pointing a gun at them. Standing there and waiting to get shot or trying to demand ID ensures they are most likely going to be the one with no side of the story to tell. If this was just a man with a gun, no sane person would do anything other than call 911, but it's a family member so there is little choice. Once involved, there is only one option when someone unidentified points a gun at you. If you have made the decision not to fire, then don't CCW.

whitenack
February 10, 2006, 09:55 AM
I would have to think that any plain-clothesed officer who pulls his weapon will make it clear to everyone in sight that he is an LEO.

The LEO would know that there will be civilians who would think that he is a BG, so I would imagine that the LEO would be very clear in who he is and what he is doing.

Holding is ID up, shouting his ID and his intentions, saying that everyone stay calm and such.

I don't think you are going to come upon a plain-clothesed cop with his weapon drawn and not have proper ID readily available.

The LEO is not stupid. He knows that there is potential for misunderstanding. He is trained over and over again to avoid misunderstandings.

urbanassault
February 10, 2006, 10:58 AM
BlackwaterOPS:

A car is a deadly weapon. Think about it.
Thats a joke and a stupid reason to abuse his authority and you know it. Do you realize how hard it is to hit somebody when you are in a car?? Think about it your turning radius is what 10-15ft can you stand within a 10ft circle? I think you could dodge a car in a parking lot rather easy. Hes a 17 year old high school kid sitting in his car, a gun is not necessary even if he thought it was, where the handcuffs??? No, its rediculous the kind of power we give LEO's and how they abuse it, do they have nothing better to do but harrass kids.



Your brother almost certainly gave permission. If he did not well, there are cops who should be doing something else.
Of course he gave him permission, he had nothing to hide, but why would they need to block his car in and search through for no reason. They "thought" he might be doing something he wasnt, if you were sitting in parking lot and a cop blocked you in and went through all of your crap you would be ****** but they wouldnt do that to an adult because it is rediculous. My brother gave the officer's permission because it is rediculous to argue with a cop, duh they have the authority, and we as sheep have to respect it, just because. What would they do if you said no? Call the dispatch and get a reason to do it anyways....probably....would that **** them off even more and make them being even bigger jerks, most likely. I hope you keep an open mind when reading what I write and realize that it is not pointless bable, this stuff really happens, ALOT think of it happening to your kids...

springmom
February 10, 2006, 11:16 AM
+1 to Blackwater OPS and Rob P. Sorry SRT Dog, but if you are alone and are holding a family member at gunpoint and there is no indication at all that you are a police officer, then as far as I know you are a bad guy and I will protect my family. If you don't want that to happen, don't be a lone ranger making an arrest in plainclothes.

Think: let's say for the moment that I am stupid enough to engage you in conversation. You call me a f***ing retard and tell me you're a cop. That's funny...why on earth should I believe you? You look like a street tough, you talk like a street tough, you are not making an arrest in anything that even approaches normal police procedure...you want ME to drop my gun????

No way.

Oh yes: additionally, every police officer I have ever had ANY contact with (a couple of times pulled over, one ticket, the miserable affair with Youngest Son being assaulted recently, etc), every single officer has been courteous, polite, and even when I was an idiot and make an illegal left turn onto my college campus :rolleyes: never so much as raised his voice, let alone calling me a "f***ing retard". If that's your normal mode of speech in your job, you need a vacation or a new job, because one fine day, you'll say that to somebody that has enough clout with somebody in your city to get your butt fired. And you will deserve it.


Springmom

superpelly
February 10, 2006, 11:37 AM
You know, Sounds like some of you CCW holders are "want-to-be-cops" and just never had the common scense to make it has cops. Now I know most of you are good, caring, CCW permit holders. But some of you make CCW a bad name for the people who really know its full purpose. This is why LEO's fringe on citizens carrying a handgun ,in that SOME, very important, that only SOME, CCW holders are really dumb-ass morons and don't know the scope of the law or laws in which they have given the right to carry a concealed weapon's permit. This opinion was based on some of the responses in this particular thread and other threads dealing with CCW Sernario's in the TFL. :eek:

springmom
February 10, 2006, 11:55 AM
You know, Sounds like some of you CCW holders are "want-to-be-cops" and just never had the common scense to make it has cops. Now I know most of you are good, caring, CCW permit holders. But some of you make CCW a bad name for the people who really know its full purpose. This is why LEO's fringe on citizens carrying a handgun ,in that SOME, very important, that only SOME, CCW holders are really dumb-ass morons and don't know the scope of the law or laws in which they have given the right to carry a concealed weapon's permit. This opinion was based on some of the responses in this particular thread and other threads dealing with CCW Sernario's in the TFL.

:barf: :barf: :barf:

Is there something in particular to which you wish to address your complaints, or are you just being obnoxious and attacking people in general? Just wondering...

Springmom

PythonGuy
February 10, 2006, 12:06 PM
Isn't that a personal attack? Doesn't superpelly have a right to voice his opinion? or if he disagrees with you then he's obnoxious. Sound like censorship and name calling, a rare double double.

Ares45
February 10, 2006, 01:31 PM
Once involved, there is only one option when someone unidentified points a gun at you.

THANK YOU Blackwater!

Capt Charlie
February 10, 2006, 01:39 PM
It's disappointing that this thread, which had real potential as a real learning tool, has degenerated into a strongly polarized bickering session with little real value.

I'm closing this one to give people time to cool off. If you want to re-start this one, and keep it on a civil, productive level, have at it.