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Doug.38PR
January 31, 2006, 03:18 PM
Okay, this is a little more realistic senario than my earlier snubby vs. ar15 thread which turned comedy :D .

Suppose someone with a superior weapon (say a shotgun or a semi auto rifle) walks into a restraunt and starts shooting up the place. You are seated in an area of the restraunt that puts you at his back (say 10-15 yards away). You pull your .38 (snub or full service) or 9mm handgun....or heck, just say any caliber handgun from .32-45. You may have only one shot...maybe two before he can recover, pinpoint where he was shot from and turn at you in which case, depending on his condition, gives him the upper hand with him with a superior weapon. WHERE DO YOU SHOOT FIRST?

My first thought would be to do a JFK and take a chunk of the back of his head off. But then, the head is a smaller target and it moves. So that leaves the center mass of his back or maybe one of his side ribcages depending on his stance.

Now, here is the validity here: This happened to then officer Ray Martinez of the Austin city police back in 1966 when he worked his way up the tower with an armed civilian (As a side note: he spoke VERY highly of citizens with guns, the way they handled themselves and gave some of the most important support in ending and minimizing the sniper threat all over that chapter of his book :) ) and took out the sniper. According to his book, his first shot was with his police issue .38 special (looked like a S&W M10 from the photo of him, but hard to tell as it was holstered) to the guys back left side. Said the first bullet hit the sniper somewhere in the left side, the guy sprung up and turned, Martinez, the citizen and (I think) another officer finished him off unloading his .38 special and a shotgun shell before the guy finally started to go down. (think the guy had a brain tumor or was a schitzo or something that altered his perception of reality...evidently also the reality of dying)

Where to place a bullet to have the most damage and most shocking effect to stop the villian? First shot most important? Where do you shoot him? What vital organ are you aiming for?

NBT
January 31, 2006, 03:35 PM
With a snub, I'd go for the headshot just because I am not able to pull off rapid groups with a revolver and I don't feel as confident with a .38 as I do with a 9mm <.

Now if I had my Sig 357 or .40, all hell would break lose :eek:

Mikeyboy
January 31, 2006, 03:40 PM
Why only one shot...I'd keep shooting until he drops...ohhh but I'll play along...One shot close range, back of the head. Not too close, Shoot him in the back mid back below the shoulder blades (which will seriously screw up penetration if you hit those thick bones) , because it would be an easier shot and you might hit something important, like his spine or his vitals, sort of like a backward COM shot.

P.S. Doug I read the other closed thread and you made me laugh. I was going thru some old boxes I had and found 3 chinese stars, from my teenage years. I think I'm selling my handgun....I got something better now...

invention_45
January 31, 2006, 04:00 PM
shooting for medullary area of brain.

but i'd have to be a really good shot, because i don't think it has a cross section bigger than the business end of a teaspoon.

this is my best guess, figuring that if i hit it he's neurologically out of business.

second choice would be an inch to his left of center and about six inches below the neck. that would be aiming for the heart, a bigger target. i'm not sure how much operating time he'd have left, though, with that shot.

unluckily, i think the aorta is just in front of the spine along the spine's entire length, so you don't have that as a target like you do from the front.

on rethinking...maybe the back of a knee, particularly with a bigger round.

Runsalone
January 31, 2006, 04:27 PM
O.K. Ill play...
This might sound totally crazy, keep in mind Im no seal or ninja Im just thinkin out loud, maybe given the element of suprise we have in your senario, it would be worth consideration to close with the BG and put two in his head from contact distance. This way you dont give away your position until too late for the BG. Also from hugging distance he has to get the muzzel into you to shoot, maybe you could stop that swing if he started while you were moving.

Now in the "real" world......id probably just crap my pants and try to get the hell behing something solid and pray:eek:

Handguns against longguns, spooky no matter what you do!!! (unless you the crazy on with the AR!):D

GMThirteen
January 31, 2006, 04:41 PM
Seeing as how you'd probably be on the ground or behind good cover or concealment,I'd pick the back of the leg,hamstring area.This would tear or pop the muscle striations causig him to drop in great pain.This would give me time and ability to advance to him for the old reliable,two to the chest-one to the skull CQB.;)

Double Naught Spy
January 31, 2006, 04:47 PM
Shooting somebody in the head and calling it a JFK probably sounds cool and all, but the nomenclature goes with the person performing the action, not the victim. So it would be Badge Man, Grassy Knoll Man, Storm Drain Man, or Oswald, not JFK.

Doug, do you have xray glasses while doing this? Otherwise, how do you "aim for" that which you can't see? All you can do is to aim at a location on the exterior, ideally by a definitive landmark, and hope your round continues with the same trejectory on entering the body and if you are fortunate, it will hit the intended internal structure, but that is haphazard.

invention_45, you are shooting at the medullary portion of the brain because a bullet in any other part of the brain isn't going to do enough damage or what? Given that skull shots don't always penetrate, you may be fortunate to just hit the brain in general if the round penetrates properly

The aorta does not run the entire length of the spine. In fact, you won't find it in the cervical vertebrae, sacral, or caudal.

Glenn E. Meyer
January 31, 2006, 04:52 PM
I'll play too.

1. The guy doesn't see you.
2. You need to get rounds into him.
3. Best way to do that is COM. Many folks teach that you put the first rounds into the center of the biggest thing you see.
4. Thus, I put two in the center of his back.
5. Then I shoot two at his head.
6. I still have 12 more rounds. I just keep firing into him.

If he is going to turn, he will be turned under constant fire. The Tower story makes no sense. Your time between shots is much less than the time for evaluation of being shot and turning. It might be an example of reconstructive memory.

In an FOF, I was charged by a guy with a bat, with my J frame - I fired 3 shots as he charged. Two hand hits and one great COM. Whoopee for me. Then I was shot in the back by his girlfriend (which Mr. Idiot here ignored as she was a girl - sigh). I whirled and shot her. However, she said and I believe she could have shot me five times before I turned. She didn't as two made the training point and I'm a funny guy. I clearly felt the two shots before I started to turn. I easily could have felt 5 before completing the turn.

The two Sims rounds at contact distance sting even through a sweat shirt.

There is no substitute for quality FOF for the civilian who is serious. It is expensive and thanks that I got department funding for the endeavour. However, it blows away a good deal of the internet scenario chatter. Things happen fast, you have to move and shoot.

rapier144
January 31, 2006, 04:53 PM
Base of the neck in between the shoulder blades. Then i would hand the gun to my buddy i'm with so if the shooter turns around to see who shot him i could point to my buddy.

Sir William
January 31, 2006, 05:47 PM
Triple tap to the posterior.

CelticMP
January 31, 2006, 06:00 PM
Crouch and shoot upwards into the back of neck where the shoulders meet the neck. 2 reasons upwards angle gives you a exit wound around the base of the jaw or throat, possibly brain stem (medulla area). The exiting round will also be on a trajectory that isnt horizontal, thus less chance of hitting a innocent on the far side of the target.

Half-Price Assassin
January 31, 2006, 06:03 PM
good question for fun. well if he is like the guys who robbed the bank in L.A. in the early 90's, then your screwed unless you get ahead shot, but if its some guy with light armor, or no armor, and i had my GLOCK 26 with 12 round mags, i would just aim for the upper area of his back, and empty the clip, or keep firing till he drops. and then grap his ar15, open the top and steal the full auto sear!!!!!!!:cool:

swmike
January 31, 2006, 06:07 PM
If you are behind the gunman within 20-50 feet, I would believe you are at a great advantage. Two shots at COM will continue that advantage if you hit him. Even a snubbie will knock the wind out of him for a moment or two. 3 or 4 more available with a snubbie or 38 more with what I carry (Sig 229 with 2 reloads).

Given the choice, I would always like to start out a gunfight with these odds (being behind the BG and within lethal range). Make the first rounds count and the fight will be over sooner than the BG expected. Forget headshots. COM until down. If you happen to miss COM and get a CNS instead, then the luck was on your side. You get to go home at the end of the day. CNS shots are too low percentage, unless you have a scoped rifle, and the BG may draw the lucky card that day.

Denny Hansen
January 31, 2006, 06:14 PM
Glenn got it right; shoot for the center of the biggest piece of meat available. Try the following:

Make a fist. You now have an object smaller (but just slightly) than the human brain. Stretch out your arm and move the fist up and down, side to side. The sad truth is that most people can't hit that small of a moving target any closer than execution distance. Mix in the chemical cocktail the body produces in the real world, away from a keyboard, and it becomes much harder. While "head shots" do stop fights, actually hitting it is much harder than many folks seem to realize.

Denny

Weeg
January 31, 2006, 06:28 PM
:rolleyes:

kymasabe
January 31, 2006, 07:07 PM
I don't have the confidence to go for a head shot on a moving target. I'd go for center of mass, try to keep it low and go for a gut shot so I don't have ribs and shoulder blades to deal with, and hope for a spinal shot in the process.

Blackwater OPS
January 31, 2006, 07:46 PM
it would be worth consideration to close with the BG and put two in his head from contact distance.
This is what I though when I read the thread as well. Close quickly and put the first shot in the head, after that or if anything goes wrong empty your weapon center mass. He might turn and get you anyhow, but at least he most likely will not get anyone else.

Dwight55
January 31, 2006, 09:15 PM
Engage the torches if you all want to, . . . but I gotta believe if you spent more time on the range and less time on the keyboard or the couch, . . . you would not be afraid to take that head shot.

Just for the record, . . . the human heart is just a bit bigger than a fist, . . . but the brain is substantially bigger, . . . especially when you take into account that any shot that registers center line between the brain and body, . . . will effectively end the fight right then and right there.

Eyes, . . . throat, . . . and of course brain, . . . any of these that takes a full 230 grain FMJ out of a .45, it will hurt, bleed, impair action and eventually take down the assailant. The key is popping that melon in the center if at all possible. Make believe the head is a small punkin, . . . and pop it dead center, . . . repeat, repeat, repeat, etc.

He's going down, . . . or you are one super poor shot and missed em all.

May God bless,
Dwight

HuntAndFish
January 31, 2006, 10:00 PM
Does it appear he is wearing body armour? Is there an escape route? Is cover available? For me, it may also depend on the day. I carry different weapons depending on how I must dress. On a normal workday I am carrying a 5-shot .38 snubbie, one reload in a strip. Other days I have a .45 commander and an extra mag. Even with an advantage like you describe, I may decide that if there wasn't a loved one in the line of fire, and there was an escape route, I would probably just take it and get on the horn to 911.

shield20
January 31, 2006, 11:21 PM
I guess it depends - on my perception at the time. I had trained and trained for center mass as an armed civilian and as a cop. Of course I had practiced a few head shots too over the years. One day I was taking part in a tactical pistol class where we were walked backwards to the line where different silouette targets had been hung, and told to engage only the ones with camo when we turned around. Well the camo guys were holding hostages, and in that instant for some reason their heads just seemed huge. One shot each right in the middle just seemed the way to go. Instructors were surprised at why I took the head shots, but wouldn't argue with the results.

Obviously MUCH more stress in this scenario, so who knows, but I think it will depend on where my attention gets focused at that instant. If he is back to me, carrying an AR - i will probably be locked more into that...just don't know - (which may be the worst answer!)...i DO know he will get more then one shot, where ever it is. Hmmm....

LICCW
January 31, 2006, 11:25 PM
OK, I'm no tactician, and I do think I'd go for center mass, and if real close maybe the head, but I have a question for those more knowledgeable than me. I used to pop squirrels running up trees and across branches etc with a BB gun offhand as a kid. Distance? I don't know, maybe thirty feet tops. Shouldn't I be able to hit a guy in the head even if he's moving? I see posts all the time about how hard it is to hit the head, and I believe it. But is it really that hard?

joab
January 31, 2006, 11:32 PM
Front rear or side shot, center mass is the preferred target

Like you said you may have only one shot.
It would be better to hit the easier target than to miss the smaller target

riverkeeper
February 1, 2006, 12:29 AM
Haven't BTDT but it seems to me the guy with a long gun has to make a one eighty and find you somewhat concealed before lighting you up.

In that time ( at the range anyway) should be time for 3 DAO COM -- head shot if you feel strong.

But that dadburn Murphy guy is around somewhere or you would not be in the scrape to begin with.:D

Capt Charlie
February 1, 2006, 12:47 AM
I see posts all the time about how hard it is to hit the head, and I believe it. But is it really that hard?
Don't get me wrong; hitting a squirrel on the run at 30 feet is still some pretty fancy shootin', but a squirrel's path is fairly predictable, and you can anticipate and lead it. You have to luxury of time and your pulse isn't 120+.

If you find yourself in the position that a head shot is necessary, the situation has gone from grim to desperate.

Say you've done a double tap to COM and you hear the unmistakable "thwap thwap" of bullets hitting a vest, you have very little time to switch tactics, line up for a head shot, and fire.

The head can bob in different directions, and if you combine that with body movement, plus adrenalin flow and the need for speed, you end up with one very difficult target.

#18indycolts
February 1, 2006, 01:31 AM
here's my issue...he's in a restaurant...how many people around? If nobody, then take the shot. If its crowded, you better think before you try anything. Thats just me though.:cool:

pokerjoe420
February 1, 2006, 01:46 AM
If you are behind him, then there are people oppisite him... In that instance you should drop to the floor before firing so your bullets are aimed UP at him,greatly decreasing potential for freindly fire! As for the body or head, just empty all 5 shots of your 38. snubby. if you hit him he will go down, atleast long enuf to reload(you should always carry speed loaders)

GlocksRfun
February 1, 2006, 01:49 AM
Hmm,, I'd have to say try to aim for his shooting arms shoulder...right around the shoulder blades with a revolver. If u bust the bones that are supporting the rifle, he/she can't shoot that rifle., If I had my G17, I'd start center of back and He'd be on the ground before I got the 5th shot off... If I was close enough and felt comftorbal enough, I'd go for the head.. U hit the brain stem, game over.. Also depends on the backdrop,.. If there's a lot of people everywhere, I'd stick to the bigger target.. If he was standing in front of a brick wall or something, head shot coming in hot.

Blackwater OPS
February 1, 2006, 03:19 AM
have to say try to aim for his shooting arms shoulder...right around the shoulder blades with a revolver. If u bust the bones that are supporting the rifle, he/she can't shoot that rifle. If I was close enough and felt comftorbal enough, I'd go for the head..
So its easier to shoot a bone in a persons arm than get a head shot? Why not just shoot the rifle, its a big target.:rolleyes:

invention_45
February 1, 2006, 07:34 AM
I'll buy that I don't want to shoot for the skull. I'm relying on memory from years ago that the medulla is right around where the skull opens to the spine. That's where I want my shot to hit. Now, ordinarily I would not even think of trying to make such a pinpoint shot. But I'm behind him and I have something not usually in abundance in a gunfight...time to put that spot in the sights and squeeze slowly.

As for the aorta, i'm sure you're right. i know enough anatomy to be dangerous. But what I was really trying to get across was that from the front you have direct access to the main vessels of the circulatory system, while from the back the spine could protect parts that you are really aiming for when you shoot at "center of mass".

I'd have made my thinking more clear, but I have a tendency to write a lot, so I was trying to compress.

Also, at the end I favored the back of the knee. I think the idea here was the same as the hamstring idea (sorry, forgot who said it). Destroy something that enables the BG to stand. On reflection, that would be my preferred shot except for one other thing that I was thinking but didn't mention, but then saw suggested here. The head shot would automatically be upward if I'm sitting. The knee shot would be more reliable, but might put other patrons at more risk.

joab
February 1, 2006, 08:01 AM
from the back the spine could protect parts that you are really aiming for when you shoot at "center of mass".The spine is one of those COM targets. Even Superman wouldn't be able to fight with a shattered spinal cord.

Knees are tiny little targets even from behind, especially if the BG is not cooperating by standing still
That shot will not disable his gun hand, and he's gonna be way ******

XavierBreath
February 1, 2006, 08:15 AM
He's in a restaurant? There's no need to expend ammo in such a place. Simply whip out your whetstone, sharpen your butter knife ad cleave his skull in two. Then ask for some sour cream.

Seriously, I think this situation demands tactics as much as skill. To preserve your life, your snubbie is best kept hidden from the shooter until you can gain the advantage to take a head shot with reasonable certainty of a hit. Manuever until you can get into such a position, wait for the opportunity, then take the shot.

The desire to take the shot immediately, under less than favorable conditions is what places you at risk. Make the conditions favorable, then take the shot. I know it's not the action hero thing to do, but to save others, you must first preserve your own life. The shooter MUST reload at some point. That is your opportunity. Get on him, and get the shot to the head.

LICCW
February 1, 2006, 09:03 AM
Capt. Charlie: Very true. I wasn't thinking of the predictability of path. I forgot about leading. When a squirrel is running a branch, you know where he's going, but you can't predict the assailant's head path.

okiejack
February 1, 2006, 09:40 AM
Under the circumstances, with all those people running around, it's the most reasonable choice. The idea is to stop the shooter from shooting. Hitting bones with bullets is very painful and debilitating. There are lots of bones in the upper back so I'd probably shoot a little high and keep shooting until I felt satisfaction or my weapon is empty.

Abndoc
February 1, 2006, 10:18 AM
Center mass, and keep shooting till he stops moving. Even with body armor, that round is going to hurt and suprise the BG. Go for the sure shot and adjust tactics as necessary.

Doug.38PR
February 1, 2006, 10:27 AM
Say you've done a double tap to COM and you hear the unmistakable "thwap thwap" of bullets hitting a vest

Alright. Learned something new already from this thread. I didn't know you heard anything when the bullet hit body armor or flesh. I thought it was just as if the bullet hit the backstop dirt mound at the range. I thought you would only hear sound if the bullet hit metal or rock. Thought the only sign you saw that you hit them was when they staggered or fell. If they staggered with no seeming effect (and they look a little overweight) then they probably have body armor.
Now I know that there is something to listen for when shooting someone. :)

Mikeyboy
February 1, 2006, 12:20 PM
Triple tap to the posterior.

I think I'm changing my target. Do a search on the "The Hunt" forum and look up the infamous "bung hole" deer shot. You don't have to worry about a vest, or shoulder bones, or anything. The guy will go down, but probably live. Later, he will be cursing you in his jail cell as he empties his bag after he goes to the bathroom.

Mikeyboy
February 1, 2006, 12:24 PM
Say you've done a double tap to COM and you hear the unmistakable "thwap thwap" of bullets hitting a vest


Alright. Learned something new already from this thread. I didn't know you heard anything when the bullet hit body armor or flesh. I thought it was just as if the bullet hit the backstop dirt mound at the range. I thought you would only hear sound if the bullet hit metal or rock. Thought the only sign you saw that you hit them was when they staggered or fell. If they staggered with no seeming effect (and they look a little overweight) then they probably have body armor.
Now I know that there is something to listen for when shooting someone.

Unless your using a silencer, or a .22 all your going to hear is a bang from your gun, and maybe some ringing:rolleyes:

Capt Charlie
February 1, 2006, 01:14 PM
Unless your using a silencer, or a .22 all your going to hear is a bang from your gun, and maybe some ringing
I know that hearing hits to a vest sounds preposterous, but it's true. A few years ago we starting seeing vests showing up more and more on the streets. Because of that, our range officer set up a demonstration during qualification, and you can hear it. It almost sounds like an extension of the shot, but it is distinguishable. The weapons were 9mm.

okiejack
February 1, 2006, 01:35 PM
But hearing the impact depends on a number of factors i.e. background noise level, distance from target, angle of impact, and probably many etc.s. I doubt that I would notice the sound of my slugs impacting in the heat of a deadly moment.

I like the "butt" shot idea. However, the "butt" is a small target compared to center of mass.

Chris Phelps
February 1, 2006, 01:42 PM
OK here goes...


Why would I be carrying a snub? my instinct is tight groups and pulling the trigger as fast as I can, so there is no way I would be in this situation to begin with.

Ignoring that fact, lets continue. A shot to the back of the head would be good, assuming you have a clear backing, and are not risking anyone elses life. Even if the shot only buys you 1-2 seconds, that should be time enough to close the distance between you and him and grab his firearm.


BTW, since the other thread was closed, and I was chewing my tounge off wanting to say this... if a guy walks in with an AR and you go all rambo and flip the table, .223 FMJs are going to punch through that table like a paper plate. The only thing that flipping the table would do is to inform the shooter that you are prepared to have a shootout, thus making you target #1.



I do, indeed, look forward to your next "what if" post. Try to pick a better firearm in the next round, though. ;)

wayneinFL
February 1, 2006, 02:24 PM
Why would I be carrying a snub?

I don't know why you would.

I do because it's small, light, and draws from a pocket well. It works well with shorts and a shirt tucked in while I'm at work. I don't have to look like a slob with my shirt hanging out or risk jail time by accidentally exposing my gun.

As for my off time, I don't have to listen to the typical "What are you bringing that thing for? You're just going out to a restaurant/walmart/a convenience store at 2am," when I put a gun inside my belt before leaving home. Either my wife thinks the little gun is more "civilized" than a big nasty glock or she just doesn't notice it.

Mikeyboy
February 1, 2006, 03:29 PM
Ok, I'll take your guys words for it that you will here a "thump" if you hit a vest. I can see me now...an armed BG tried to rob be and I pull my CW and shot him in the chest and hear a thump...I'll be saying "hey whatya know" as he blows my brains out.

HuntAndFish
February 2, 2006, 12:10 AM
The shooter MUST reload at some point. That is your opportunity. Get on him, and get the shot to the head.

If the guy drops mag and starts to grab for another and I have an opportunity, escape route or not, he absolutely isn't going to get another shot off without some holes in him.

Okay...crunch time. No Escape route. No cover. Obviously no body armour. Loved ones are with me in the line of fire.

5-shot snubbie: Up from the booth medium crouch. Quickly and steadily moving toward him, no bouncing steps. Shirt up and drawing gun from 2:00 position IWB still moving, gun up to level and front sight alignment with target, weaver stance from waist up (right handed). Eyes on target/front sight to detect if he notices me. (If he does I start shooting then and keep moving in and shooting while he is turning. All COM shots.) Still moving toward him. Keep closing until I am about twice spitting distance if possible and then all 5 as quick as possible to heart/lung. Keep closing toward him with empty gun and pistol whip that SOB once on the head before grabbing the forearm of his weapon. Keep pistol whipping the B&^$t%rd until he is dead. I would be very angry at this point in time.

.45 Cmdr: Same thing but I would shoot sooner and more times.

I probably wouldn't be too worried at the time about what was beyond the target. I might be aware of it and move sideways one way or the other to get a clear backstop, especially if it was a loved one.

Body Armour: I don't know...I might be inclined to shoot for the head in this case. Especially if I got close.

Glenn E. Meyer
February 2, 2006, 10:12 AM
I'm still playing.

I don't understand this sneaking up to shoot. The guy is 10-15 yards away with his back to you.

This is not a terribly hard shot such that you should waste time moving slowly. To get close will take some time and gives him the time to shoot several more people. It also gives him time to detect you and shoot you.

Closing may or may not be a good idea. There are different doctrines such as going for cover, taking cover behind your bullets, or taking the fight to the shooter.

However, since the scenario allows me to have my Glock 19, I see no reason not to approach with my rounds leading the way, if I chose to approach.

Even with my J frame, I prefer to start the fight with a round going into the shooter.

No pauses in the firestream. Shoot him into the ground. Note that I'm not advocating spray and pray but aimed and direct fire immediately.

Or else, if there is a back door and the guy is looking the other way, as was done in Kileen by some - flee.

We see in to recent civilian interaction with rampage shooters that hesitation, the lack of appreciation of failure to stop drills and perhaps a pause to evaluate the rounds led to a bad outcome.

The recent mall shooter shot the civilian who was futzing around and thinking about the law. The courthouse guy did solid hits on the body armor and was then killed. As several of my teachers have stated you need to be aggressive. If the person is still standing, you are still shooting and/or moving. If your initial COM shots don't lead to a drop, switch targets.

Mikeyboy
February 2, 2006, 03:54 PM
I'm with you Glenn. We may act all brave and tough, but here is what I would do. I would take the shot, keep shooting until I empty my gun. If he drops great, if not and he turns around to shot me, I would scream like a school girl as I fumble to reload while running out the nearest possible exit.

Blackwater OPS
February 2, 2006, 04:09 PM
You can close 10 yards in a few seconds. I did not suggest sneaking, this would be more of a rush, if the BG starts to turn-fire. Bottom line is you only have 5 shots witha snubbie, you want to get as close as you can and make them count. Advancing on an adversary is classic battle strategy.
Even more important you should have been sitting somewhere with a clear view of all entry/exit points, I always do this when armed. Situational awareness beats marksmanship anyday.

Runsalone
February 2, 2006, 07:16 PM
The more I think about it the better I "like" the closing on the BG idea. This would all happen fast. Reaction times would seem like mollasssas runing uphill
plus all the factors there are to think about to come up with a strategy to tackle the issue.....Body armor....backstops.....what to do if the first couple of rounds dont do the trick....etc.

Closing gives you one solid solitary motivation.........ATTACK!! If he swings on you with the long gun at any distance your screwed, if you empty a snubbie into him and hes wearing body armor he COULD get really ****** off and swing on you, If you fire head shots and miss (highly likely considering the crap-your-pants factor) you give away the element of suprise. Maybe the best defense in this scenario is a quick VIOLENT offense.

I stand by my point before, handgun vs. rifle or shotgun = suicide. Being outguned, acting unconventional could be the answer. No matter what, the likleyhood of getting smoked is a little high for my taste!:eek:

the_oklahombre
February 2, 2006, 08:02 PM
S&W 500 in shoulder holster filled with a nice JHP variant. Only one shot you say? Right between the shoulders.

LICCW
February 2, 2006, 10:31 PM
I've been re-thinking this one over and over. I'm not happy with the choice of a 5 shot J frame as primary weapon, but even so, guy with his back to me at 10-15 yards, I have to say I go for center mass shots. I'd probably empty the cylinder into his back as fast as I could. 10-15 yards is pretty close. Shoot and duck out the nearest exit. I don't know how the guy will react to being shot at. Some people stay calm, some get ******, others cry. I don't know for sure if he's able to think tactically. He may not even have any capability with his weapon. He could jam, FTF, FTE, who knows. The different ways he reacts change the outcome dramatically. He could drop and its over, turn and shoot, start running away screaming. So I'm taking the shots. The rest we'll see.....

oldguy52
February 4, 2006, 01:06 PM
This is one that takes some thought, but in all honesty I’d be curling into the smallest ball I could make myself. Not the bravest act, I know. However with all the slippery brown stuff that would be flying when the fear factor kicked in, all that I’d have to do is wait until he slipped in it and fell, knocking himself out. After making sure the someone called the police I’d be off to get cleaned up and buy some new shorts….and that is the simple truth. Nuts, if I pulled the gun with all that lead flying I probably shoot my toe off anyway.

claude783
February 4, 2006, 05:55 PM
Shot middle of the back. Spinal cord, heart, lungs, first shot single action, the following shots double action, to put some icing on the cake, move towards him as you fire.

Reduce the distance and the chances of missing get smaller. Personally I think if the first shot when through the spine, center of mass, the fight would probably be over, if not, as I say move towards him and continue to put rounds into him. Head is to small, round a target. A low velocity round might just glaze him...

bruchi
February 4, 2006, 07:46 PM
The problem with the shooting on the back scenario is that if the guy is wearing a bullet proof vest, reasonably muscular and/or high on something he might just turn around and blast you away, the head is a small target and a lot harder than we think, the legs are way even smaller.

A guy going though the trouble of getting a vest to go shoot up a public place is perhaps as uncommon an ocurrence as the one of a person deciding to out and shoot up a public place. Anything is possible, I hate to find out about the vest after I commit!

They tell armored car guards in training to shoot perps in the triangle formed among the hips and crotch, it is a pretty big reliable target surrounded with "good" realstate to hit even if misssed and gettng shot there will stop most anyone it its tracks, don't know if this will be as effective from the back but have a feeling it is, even a broken femur will do the job.

I suppose that in most other cases were a BG is armed and a treath, any type of armed robery for instance letting them take the money and go is the best policy, it is just material stuff, money can be made again, life once is gone, it is gone forever. You are not getting paid to guard the property of others and even if it is your stuff most probably it is insured but the scenario of some loony already shooting up regular folks just because the neighbor's cockroaches told him to do so is a diferent one, like it would be some terrorist shooting up a shopping mall as in a novel I read recently.

Getting involved then if you are up to it would be more called for in my opinion: there's a big problem and you're the only one with the tool to fix it? If that is the case and if you are not going to make things worse I believe you should. If I had the cojones to get up and do so I think that the thing to do would be to get as close as posible in stealth to fire that first shot, if I can get the gun's muzzle to touch him before pulling the trigger better, if I get caugh midway I am that much closer already and the chances of landing effective shots will be larger than from my original position. Also up close a knife can be a great weapon when you run out of ammo and I always carry a very sharp one.

clt46910
February 4, 2006, 09:33 PM
Just a point to make. 10 or 15 yards is a long ways with a short barrel handgun. You are talking 30 to 45 feet. At least two large rooms across, more likey three to five.

The spine sits close to the surface of the back. I would think the only shot to take would be middle of the back. Hope to hit the spine and maybe damage to the heart or lungs would put them down.

You want to know just how good you really are? Get a laser sight and see just how steady you can keep it at 10 or 12 yards.