PDA

View Full Version : M1A Socom II: Scope Recommendations?


DigitalShooter2
January 28, 2006, 10:28 PM
I'm thinking about optics for a Socom II. So far, I'm considering the Eotech 550, Leupold CQ/T or Aimpoint M3. The iron sights are excellent but if you were going to add a scope, which would you choose and why?

ccwolff
January 29, 2006, 02:15 AM
Eotech best unobstructed field of view.

by saying scope do you mean magnifaction?

If so then the Leupold is what you want, not sure about the eye relief on an m1a though?

AK103K
January 29, 2006, 07:08 AM
I have an Aimpoint ML2 on my SOCOM. Its on a ARMS lever mount which is just a tad high, but its still very natural to shoot with.

I was never a fan of the "heads up" type sights, the couple I had sat way to high for me, making them unnatural to shoot with and I was always looking for the dot. With the Aimpoints, and tube type dots, I shoulder the rifle and the dot is right on what I am looking at.

I'm just the opposite of ccwolff, I find the Eotech to be more of an obstruction than the Aimpoints. With both eyes open, all I see is the dot, I dont even notice the sights body. I dont feel like I'm looking through a tube either.

One other advantage with the Aimpoints I've found is, I can close the front cover and the sight still works as long as you shoot with both eyes open, ala the old Trijicon OEG's. If you close the cover you can accomplish a couple of things. One, it works as a kill flash, something that drove me crazy trying to shoot with, and if your moving from light to dark and back to light places, like in and out of buildings, you can leave the dot at one setting and the dot doesnt wash out or get to bright as the lighting changes.

I've also had Scout scopes, both Burris and Leupold, on my rifle on ARMS lever rings. I still have the Leupold set up for it, but rarely use it. The dot sights are the way to go for this rifle. The Burris Scout is OK, but the power is a litter heavier than the Leupolds, and you notice it right away, at least I did. You can also get away with a pistol scope. I have a cheapie BSA 2x pistol scope I was trying at first to see if I liked it, and it worked fine. May be a cheaper way to decide if you want to go that route. Mine was a freebie for ordering something else, so they can be really cheap. :)

DigitalShooter2
January 29, 2006, 12:12 PM
My understanding is the Eotech allows for faster target aquisition with a wider field of view but offers no magnification. This seems like the obvious choice for very close quarters but I want something useful out to 200+ meters. Otherwise, this seems like the least expensive system.

The Aimpoint has an excellent reputation among its followers but seems slightly less practical in very close quarters and is more expensive. It can be magnified but that's cost prohibitive.

The Leupold CQ/T is even more expensive but offers up to 3x magnification which could come in handy if I want to test the practical range of this rifle.
Leupold also offers excellent glass which is important to me. I suppose I should look at Nikon glass, too since I'm a walking advertisement for them off the range.

ethernectar
January 29, 2006, 02:50 PM
Putting an Eotech on mine.

Did consider the Leupold as well.

My M1A NM will keep its open sights. Definitely a fun challenge to shoot 100y with open sights. Good to see improvement too. :)

ccwolff
January 30, 2006, 01:42 AM
Well both the eotech and aimpoint can be magnified by way of the aimpoint 3x mag, I have not tried it, just seen it on other peoples rifles.

The eotech does sit a little higher than the aimpoint I don't mind it some do.
If you are planing on getting a scope you will need a cheek piece and if the eotech is to high you could also put a cheek piece on as well.

If you had the socom 16 I would recomend the aimpoint for the heat issue I had alone, I put on a sage ebr stock on mine and all the small issues I had with the rifle went away.The froward mount over heat, op rod hand position interferance, lack of flash light mount, were my main problems with it as it came.

The way to use the eotech is to only focous on the target and not the eotech reticle and dot. Look at the target and place the reticle on the target.
While the aimpoint if it works like my docter optic you focus on the dot and put the dot on the target.

Dirty_Harry
January 30, 2006, 01:32 PM
The Eotech is AWESOME

BigRob215
January 30, 2006, 10:13 PM
i tried putting my CQ/T scope (with an ARMS mount upgrade) on my SOCOM II but the scope sits too far away because the rail ends at the ejection port. Found a Stripper guide mount extender on Fulton Armory's site but it dont know if its going to be enough to mount the ARMS mount on.

DigitalShooter2
January 31, 2006, 11:00 PM
...good intel...

I hadn't thought about eye relief vs the length of rail.

DigitalShooter2
February 1, 2006, 08:57 PM
Whats with the Aimpoint? Anyone have experience with Aimpoint M2/M3's?

People are voting for it without explaination.

AK103K
February 2, 2006, 07:11 AM
I have three, a M2 and a couple of ML2's. Only difference is, the M2 is NV compatible. It and the Eotech are the two you see on most guns in hard use, and I believe you see the Aimpoints more. Great sight, rugged, waterproof, and a battery life of 10,000 hours(M2/ML2) or 50,000 hours(M3).

I dont find the Aimpoint to be any slower to use than the Eotech for fast shooting. I look at what I want to shoot as I shoulder the rifle and the dot appears where I'm looking and thats where the bullet goes. I always felt like I was looking for the dot on the Eotech type sights and then had to put it on the target. The Eotech also sits to high for me, even the Aimpoint on an ARMS mount is a little to high, but its a lot better and is more natural for me to shoot with, and I still get a decent cheek weld on the stock. I'd go with a lower ring, but I like being able to pop the sight off and on with a lever mount.

ConRich
February 2, 2006, 04:42 PM
What size is the dot on your Aimpoint ? and what do you feel is the maximum efective range of your sight. I am thinking about an Aimpoint for my NM M1A and would appreciate any sugestions.

Thanks,
Rich

AK103K
February 2, 2006, 05:21 PM
Rich,
My Aimpoints have the 4 moa dot. I've only shot my SOCOM out to 150-200 yards with one, so I really cant say past that. I didnt have any troubles making good COM hits on a brown cardboard silhouette at that distance. I do have trouble trying to shoot bullseye type targets with them though and for some reason my groups are about double or more those shot on a target without an aiming point. It gets a lot worse if you have a killflash on it. I had to take mine off as they drove me crazy! For quick shooting at 100 yards and in, you really cant beat one, especially when mounted forward of the chamber. The lower you mount it the better.

Here's a pic of two 100 yard targets fired from a cross legged sitting position, the left one was the SOCOM, the right, a Krebs, AK103K in 7.62x39. Both have a ML2 on them with a forward mount.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid168/p7d015dea6879709e3f822eb7c4446650/f420593d.jpg

These were 2 second(about) "snap shots" from low ready at 100(L) and 50(R) using the AK.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid114/p5c20d90b90d0b61154c31644fed7090c/f8df35ff.jpg

Mannlicher
February 2, 2006, 06:42 PM
I have an EoTech mounted on my SOCOM. Works just fine. Its pefect for low light hog hunting :)

ccwolff
February 2, 2006, 07:19 PM
Thats it, it's PIC time.

All are mounted as far back as possible to allow the use of the stripper clip guide to load ammo in addition to mags.


http://i1.tinypic.com/n316c2.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/n318oj.jpg

http://i1.tinypic.com/n318xl.jpg


Also if you have no need for your stripper clip guide than you can install this and have more mounting options. Two piece scope base, risen aimpoint, docter, and mabey ACOG but I don,t have one of those......Yet.

http://i1.tinypic.com/n31c37.jpg

I perfer the eotech for the low target obstruction but it is a little on the high side.

AK103K
February 2, 2006, 07:54 PM
I like them forward and out of my face
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid161/p416c04eeb35445911c883ea9bfefbb07/f4c8debe.jpg

Hey wolff, aint this really THE one accessory every M14/M1A owner needs? :)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid164/pfb0cc82d454c69499d8021dddebb2e36/f489812e.jpg

ccwolff
February 2, 2006, 08:18 PM
Yeah your not kidding. Before anyone gets any thing for their M1a they should get that Extended Bolt Stop/Release.

DigitalShooter2
February 2, 2006, 10:14 PM
"Before anyone gets any thing for their M1a they should get that Extended Bolt Stop/Release."

Thanks ccwolf! I like the pics too!

J308
January 12, 2008, 07:37 PM
Two great optics are:

Horus Vision Talon (3rd optic down on page)
http://www.horusvision.com/scopes.shtml

(These new Horus Vision scopes are becoming very popluar in the US military.)

The Leupole MK4
http://www.leupold.com/hunting-and-shooting/products/scopes/mark-4-mrt-riflescopes/mark-4-1-5-5x20mm-mrt-one-inch/

socalarmy
February 3, 2008, 01:28 AM
i just got my hands on a socom II and i aquired a ACOG. the rifle though does not have the extended rail and i am clueless on how to get the scope closer to my eye. i am new to the field of M1A so can someone help me out with mount options and where to purchase them

T.A.Sharps
February 3, 2008, 01:36 AM
Leupold CQT and EOtechs are awsome sights, but i would never put a close quarters sight on a rifle firing a long range cartridge like a 308. Maybe if you will only use it at the range, or for hunting in woods.

I would get a really nice variable power scope. Leupold Mark 4 if I could afford it. A lot more long range potential.

HorseSoldier
February 3, 2008, 10:38 AM
+1 what J308 said. If you're wanting a variable magnification scope for both CQC ranges and pushing out past 200 meters, skip the Leupold CQ/T and get the Horus Talon. Pretty much same cost (Talon is $889.00 from the manufacturer, CQ/T seems to be low $800s to the same, depending on where you find them), and a much more capable optic that basically does everything the CQ/T can do and much more.

With the CQ/T you've got a simple circle-dot style "donut-of-death" reticle (which is quite good for close quarters work). The Horus gives similar performance with its ghost ring/cross hair reticle when set on no magnification, but when you bump the magnification up for longer range you get a reticle that includes 4-16 mil lead lines for moving targets and a gridded mil-dot "Christmas tree" reticle that allows pretty sophisticated and precise compensating for both bullet drop and windage just using the reticle.

SR420
February 3, 2008, 11:27 AM
I continue to try fixed power and variable magnification optics, but prefer zero magnification optics for cqb ranges out to 400 or 500 yards.
I love the dual reticle on EOTechs big screen. The 1 moa center dot enables very precise shot placement and the big circle of death is super fast.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/Railed.jpg

PDXGS
June 27, 2009, 10:52 AM
Agreed on the Horus- I shot one and sighted through several Horus equipped rifles yesterday and was very impressed by the reticle, performance and price of the Horus products.
Clay pidgeon at 200 yards on the second shot on a rifle I had never shot before. The first shot likely penetrated the clay without shattering it....(that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)

hooksz86
March 28, 2011, 05:46 PM
I just bought a Socom ii and did all the same looking around as you are doing now. I found what i think is going to work very well. You have to call leupold 1-800-538-7653, it is special order only or custom shop. but anyway the scope is the leupold scout. You dont need to put extended rail, dont have to take off any sights to mount. after talking to leupold tech, you can mount it at back of rail and let it hang over bolt/reseiver about 3 1/2 in and that give you perfect eye relief. It has a window of eye relief of 7 to 10 inch. I think the magnification is perfict, it is 1.5-4X28mm, and you can get a regular duplex or a fine duplex redical. the fine only covers .3 of an inch at 100 yrds. I got the fine duplex. So anyway, i know theres alot of choices out there but i think this is the best way to go. The cqt dont have enough eye relief without rail extenson from a.r.m.s. , the aimpoint does not do you any good at all if batteries run out, not even a black dot when it does, and if you put the 3xmag behind red dot it only has a 5in eye relief. the ar-332 just would be wiered. so that kinda what was going on in my head.

AK103K
March 28, 2011, 06:16 PM
I had both the Leupold and the Burris scout scopes, as well as an Aimpoint mounted on lever rings on mine.

I preferred the Aimpoint to the scopes. With the Aimpoints, battery life isnt an issue, even when left on full time, as the shortest lived models will last over a year when left on at a medium setting. The new ones go much longer.

The scope is mounted with the rear of the scope just forward of the bolt/chamber area for the correct eye relief.

You need to watch your mounts with either, if you use Springfields rail and any of the "mil spec" mounts. The rail isnt mil spec.

This one is the Burris.....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27e0811b86b00000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

and the Aimpoint....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27f63eb594000000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

hooksz86
March 28, 2011, 06:41 PM
well, yes you are correct im not for sure it will work perfect, just hoping it will. but you seem to be a good person for me to learn from about my socom. i have that scout ordered rite now, do you think that will be good for me. im wanting fast pull up and look through, but may want a little mag to reach out a little farther also. will it be ok for rear of it to hang over reseaver, as far as will brass always go directly out to the side and not hit my scope? was not knocking bad on your aimpoint at all though, i cam real close to getting one, just wanted a little magnification and was affraid if electronic failure. hope to get some help from u on this. i have a thread on reloading socom ii also if you can help me with that.

AK103K
March 28, 2011, 07:08 PM
When you get your scope, mount it how you think you want it and see what happens. I think youre going to find the eye relief is going to be about right where you see the scope mounted on my gun though. You dont need (or want) the scope close to your eye, and you generally shoot it with both eyes open.

If youre not used to the scout concept, a lot of this may seem a little foreign at first.

Id go with low rings, and try to get it as low as you can. Youre not going to get a great cheek weld, but it will be usable, and I think you'll find its more usable than a traditionally mounted scope.

As far as the Aimpoint, its all what you like and want. Having used both, I just found it worked the best for me. Either way, with lever mounts, they can be gone in the flip of a couple of levers, and your irons are there.


Reloading wise, I just used the same loads I use in my other .308 gas gun's. I use one load for a couple of different guns as it keeps things simple. Basically I just try to keep things close to the military 147-150 grain loads at around 2600-2700fps or so.

hooksz86
March 28, 2011, 08:16 PM
thanx for the input again, i got the aluminum medium mark 4 picatinny rings for that scout scope. leupold didnt make a low ring and about all i know is i like my mark 4 rings on my mark4 scope, so i went ahead and got those. i put a blackhawk tie on cheek pad that raises my head about 1in so do you think that will work out ok. and ya i agree with u on the scope scooting up like that one on yours. im hoping i do have enough eye relief to scoot it up to the back side of rail with the rear glass.

AK103K
March 28, 2011, 09:25 PM
Im not sure about the cheek pad. The only downside to them for me is, you cant use the irons with them on. Then again, once you find the optic you like, its usually what you end up using anyway. With the higher rings, it might be just what you need. Youll just have to see when you get it together. I think youre going to find the scout scope is going to be OK just forward of the the bolt/chamber area.

Thats sort of the pain with these type things. Lots of stuff around and usually its not cheap, and you get to be the guinea pig for yourself, since you never know for sure until you try it out. :)

One other thing with the rings. If they are "picatinny", unless Springfield has changed their rails, you may have to do some fiddling to get the scope to stay put. I had ARMS lever rings on mine, and had to fit the scope to the rings while mounded on the gun, and then slide the rings fore and aft against the "blocks" before tightening the ring screws for the scope down, so the scope would not move under recoil. If that makes sense. :)

SR420
March 29, 2011, 09:46 AM
3 years ago I was still using an EOTech... much has changed since then.

The EOTech is gone and my SOCOM length MK14 CQB 16 wears a
Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T 168 gr M2 with illuminated SPR.

http://i895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/CQB%2016/th_IMG_4681.jpg (http://s895.photobucket.com/albums/ac160/The_H2O_MAN/MK14EBR-RI/CQB%2016/IMG_4681.jpg)


I highly recommend the M8 from UltiMAK to anyone that uses a traditional
stock and a forward mounted optic (red dot & LER/EER scout scope).
The M8 sits extra low, allows you to cowitness the irons through low
sitting Aimpoint red dots and you should not need an add on cheek riser.
Standard weight/profile barrels only.











.

Big Boy
August 23, 2011, 07:30 PM
www.browe-inc.com

I found this on thier website at About Us...

BROWE, Inc is based in Madison Heights, Michigan and was founded in 2009 by Brian K. Browe, former Director of Operations of Trijicon, Inc. Mr. Browe has over 15 years experience in manufacturing combat and tactical optics with extensive experience in all aspects of the business. The company was founded on a simply idea of building the ultimate tactical combat optic. Two years of extensive research and development resulted in the 4x32 BROWE Combat Optic.

The 4x32 BROWE Combat Optic (BCO) is a state-of-the-art tactical riflescope that combines high-quality optical glass with high precision machining, all packaged into a military rugged Titanium housing. The mechanical design was benchmarked from the current fielded sighting systems within the US military and the optical design was developed by Optical Engineering of Minnesota, a company known for their experience in the commercial, research, and military arenas. BROWE, Inc. partnered with SCHOTT glass for the finest quality optical glass available, precision ground and broad band anti-reflective coated for excellent light gathering capabilities. The 4x32 BCO reticle is etched into the mirror prism and can be customized designed to match any requirement. The BCO is also compatible with currently fielded InSight & FLIR thermal and night vision devices. The BCO’s main housing is investment casted from military grade titanium CP-2, which is well-known for its high strength-to-weight ratio and is about 2.5 times stronger than aluminum. The exterior finish is a matte BioBlack anodize exclusively designed for titanium.

During the product development BROWE, Inc quickly realized the importance of having the ability add accessories to tactical optics and responded with multitude of design improvements. For starters, the objective face was designed straight. This shortened the overall length by 18mm and allowed the mating with in-line accessories, such as thermal and night vision devices, much more practical. Also, the shorter length conserves valuable rail space that can be utilized for additional weapon accessories. The main housing includes a machined a 30mm eyepiece for an ocular dust cover and the objective housing is threaded to accept the Tenebraex killFlash® Anti-Reflections Device and the Tenebraex Tactical Tough objective dust cover. In addition, a 42mm ring was machined into the objective bell housing for mounting or securing additional accessories. Mid-optic mounting bosses were added to the center of the optic for mounting accessories such as the L3 Insight MRDS or the DOCTERsight mini red dot sight. This moved the mini sight location forward on the optic and away from the operator’s helmet and helmet gear. The BCO 4x32 comes standard with retainer straps for the battery and adjuster caps and an A.R.M.S. #17 throw lever mount, designed for mounting on MIL-STD-1913 rails.

Internally, the BROWE Combat Optic has many upgrades as well. With the international trend to restrict Tritium along with all of the concerns of using radioactive materials, the BCO was designed using a simple, intuitive, and effective electronic system that is driven from a standard 3 volt 123A Lithium 3v battery. This power source opened the world of technology to the BROWE Combat Optic with many unique features, including our Target Light Sensor Technology.

Target Light Sensor Technology detects and measures the target light transmission through the optic and automatically adjusts the reticle illumination to the ideal intensity. This is a major advantage over the current systems that use ambient light or manual illumination controls. The issue with ambient illumination is that when used in dissimilar light, such as aiming from a dark room or under cover, there is little or no reticle illumination. And when aiming from a well lit area to a darkened area, such as an alley or dark building, the reticle is way too bright; this forces operators to use riggers tape and all kinds of other things to mask the ambient light collectors. With battery powered systems that only have manual controls are difficult or impossible to adjust during real world conditions. Operators are forced to choice a single illumination and deal with it. There is no time during these situations to adjust the illumination for every light level the operator is faced with. These methods are not an effective or efficient ways to manage reticle illumination. The Target Light Senor Technology in the 4x32 BROWE Combat Optic addresses these issues and instantaneously adjusts the reticle illumination to the appropriate target light, no matter what the ambient lighting conditions.

When nothing less than most advanced tactical combat optic will do, contact BROWE, Inc.

Charlie_98
August 23, 2011, 09:08 PM
I have a Socom16 and I wound up taking the rail off completely and just using irons. For the role I have it for (shooting to 300M) the irons are adequate.

Were I to mount an optic, I would go with the UltiMak rail and probably the EOTech (greater field of vision.) I don't think the barrel-mounted rail the Socom comes with is the ideal platform due to heat (hot barrel changing POI) and heat transfer (to the optic.)

Gunny I Corps
January 17, 2012, 04:48 PM
Personally I like two different optical sights in addition to the iron sights. The first woulld be a good scope (Schmidt and Bender, Night Force, Leupold Mark IV) in about the 2 to 8 power range with a mildot recticle. I have the Leupold. It is mounted on a GG&G quick release that is attached to a Picatinny rail that is drilled and tapped into the stripper clip guide on the extended VLTOR rail that came with the model I purchased. Additionally, I have mounted an offset Burkett mount for a Trijicon RMR dual illuminated heads up sight with a 7 moa dot.
The are several reasons for this; the least of which is that my eyes just aren't what they used to be. The scope is for long distance stuff ... anything over 100 yds. The mildot recticle is to calculate the distance to target. (That is, if my CRS disease lets me remember the formula.) Next are the targets that are close and must be acquired quickly. With the Burkett offset mount all I have to do is cant the weapon towards my weak side and I have a seven MOA dot to cover the target and squeeze. It's really a simple movement, and I still maintain a good cheek weld. Previously I've tried mounting a DR headsup display on top of a trijicon ACOG. The result was no cheek weld and a floating point of impact on short distance targets.
So there it is the best sights setup for the SOCOM II ...IMHO.
Gunny I Corps (66-67-68)

Gunny I Corps
January 17, 2012, 04:55 PM
Pull the trigger out and either send it back to Springfield to be modified to National Match Specs (I don't know if they even do this). Or just buy a National Match trigger group for it.

SR420
January 17, 2012, 05:28 PM
My CQB-16 has changed quite a bit since I posted that picture back in March of 2011, I removed the folding mechanism and replaced the Leupold with an Aimpoint T-1 on a LaRue mount.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/CQB16wSuppressedBullpup.jpg


The LT mount is currently being modified with an iron sight tunnel... there will be more on that later.





Gunny I Corps

Personally I like two different optical sights in addition to the iron sights.
The first woulld be a good scope (Schmidt and Bender, Night Force, Leupold Mark IV) in about the 2 to 8 power range with a mildot recticle. I have the Leupold. It is mounted on a GG&G quick release that is attached to a Picatinny rail that is drilled and tapped into the stripper clip guide on the extended VLTOR rail that came with the model I purchased. Additionally, I have mounted an offset Burkett mount for a Trijicon RMR dual illuminated heads up sight with a 7 moa dot.

My MK14 Mod 0 type SEI is set-up in a similar fashion to what Gunny describes above, but with a 3.5 x 10 Leupold with illuminated TMR, a Burkett offset mount with a 3.5 MOA Insight mRDS, plus Troy flip-up battle sights (not pictured). All aiming devices are available with the cheek rest set at one height... the Leupold must be removed from the CASM before I can use the flip-up sights though and this is easily done.
All of my M14s have trigger groups with SEI's M14/M21A5 C-IED 4.5 lb MAX-PAK Trigger Upgrade with EBR trigger shoes.

http://www.athenswater.com/images/Mod0-l.jpg