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Radiki
January 28, 2006, 10:48 AM
Obviously the answer is "as fast as possible". But how long does it take everyone to draw and fire? I don't think I am great, but I at 7 yards, from under a jacket I can get two shots on target in about 3-4 seconds. Drawing from under my shirt (as I normally carry at work) it is about 4-5. Any time I try to go faster (rather than pace my shots) I miss one or both of them. Any tips? (BTW: I am drawing from an IWB holster with my P99 or a paddle holster with my USP - both 9mm)

rapier144
January 28, 2006, 11:31 AM
I have always been a firm believer of " Make the first shot count you may never get another" so i'm more concerned with getting that first shot in the Ten Ring in a fair amout of time. I continually try to improve my time but when my accuracy starts to go i back off the speed. I never sacrifice accuracy for speed. Hell if speed is what one worried about buy a faster round to make up for your slower draw.:D

Radiki
January 28, 2006, 11:38 AM
I see what you are saying. I was always told that in a SD situation, if you are going to fire once, you might as well fire twice... Double tap. :D

gordo b.
January 28, 2006, 11:46 AM
You are in the real world ballpark!

stephen426
January 28, 2006, 12:08 PM
My problem is the ranges here do not allow you to carry your weapon in a holster much less draw and fire from it. Number one, they want all weapons with actions locked back and cylinders open to show they are empty when not on the firing line. Number two, they don't want to deal with idiots shooting themselves in the foot, shoting up the shooting platforms, or shooting anything but their targets.

The only place I was able to try this was in a private range in Alabama. The range I used to go to also allowed me to do it once when the range was empty. They let me go forward of the firing line and set up multiple targets (down range). That was pretty cool and a humbling experience but I wish I could practice regularly.

Do you guys think practicing with an airsoft pistol or a pellet gun might be good practice? I know Gamo makes an pellet gun that is very similar to a Glock 26. I know the weight and trigger will be off but the Gamo is a pretty good copy.

Pointer
January 28, 2006, 12:28 PM
Radiki

Obviously the answer is "as fast as possible".
Not so...

With the average person's reaction time being about 2 seconds, you have at least 3/4's of a second to draw and fire before the BG even thinks of what to do.

3/4 second is a long time... use all of it!

The world's fastest Western fast-draw, pulls, cocks, shoots and re-holsters, in about 44 hundreths of a second.

3/4 (.75) second is a long time... use all of it! ;)

if you are going to fire once, you might as well fire twice...
If you're going to fire twice... you might as well fire thrice.

Two high in center mass, and one through the eyes.

BTW drawing is a series of steps... practice slowly and gradually increase your speed... making certain that you fire three rounds right where you want them EVERYTIME you draw.


stephen426

Practice at home with empty gun...
Then at the restrictive range bring your "hot" gun up from the hip position and fire three well-placed shots each time.

It's not the best but it's better than nothing...

Have fun! :)

Ares45
January 28, 2006, 12:52 PM
The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

IIRC most self defense gunfights rarely last longer than 3-4 shots and a dozen seconds. The guy who ends up in the W column is the guy who makes his shot(s) count first. In my mind it's all relative to distance and situation. Single BG at 20yds is going to take me more than just a second or two. No flash sight picture here. One BG at bad breath distance is going to be multiple shots shooting from the hip the instant I clear leather. It's gonna be over real quick or I'll be moving off the line and twards cover following up with point shooting and sighted fire.

It's all relative to the situation.

Pointer
January 28, 2006, 01:03 PM
Ares

at bad breath distance is going to be multiple shots shooting from the hip

Making the first shot count...

at bad breath distance... I will put the first round into his mouth and then start spraying... :D

Whenever this subject comes up I can't help but remember the video of the two LEO's who stopped two militia-types and both sides fired multiple rounds, hitting nothing...

My intention is to place the first round, not "slowly" but DELIBERATELY, to ensure that the opponent doesn't get off a "lucky" shot that kills me or my partner!

A slow HIT is better than a fast MISS.

:rolleyes:

Mannlicher
January 28, 2006, 01:10 PM
ya know, I don't think a lot of folks really practice, and if they do, they don't time it. My best times for clearing and shooting is no better than what you are quoting. Gotta practice more. :)

joneb
January 28, 2006, 01:12 PM
" be slow and in a hurry"
Wyatt Earp

Ares45
January 28, 2006, 01:25 PM
" be slow and in a hurry"
Wyatt Earp

I like that.

AAshooter
January 28, 2006, 05:03 PM
To give you some idea, I believe these are the times used at Front Sight for the skills test of their 4-day Defensive Handgun class. These are shot from concealment (either open-front or closed-front garment)

Description__________________Range_______Time (sec.)
Controlled Pair..........................3m................1.6
Controlled Pair..........................5m................1.8
Controlled Pair..........................7m................1.9

Needless to say, some of the advanced test times are faster.

281 Quad Cam
January 28, 2006, 05:33 PM
I carry SOB @ 5oclock, practiced quite a bit, and keep it fresh. I keep it around 1.?? seconds from moving my hand to a shot from retention.

From there.... double tap, spray, or aimed shots is a function of the situation. Practice all if you can. Depends on the distance and nature of threat. I generally train to fire untill slidelock or untill some obvious and unmistakable sign that the threat is gone. (IE recognizing the rag-doll-like drop of a CNS hit.)

I don't know about that "average persons reaction time" being 2 full seconds. In a fight when one throws a punch, it doesn't generally another take 2 seconds to realize it and block that punch. The bad guy is already prepared to deal with you when he attacks, his reaction times are as small as they get.

Defending yourself always puts you one step behind the curve. In that - YOU are the one who may take 2 full seconds to react to a nasty and fast hitting situation - from there you want to lose as little time as possible on the draw.

Don't practice presentation only for speed.
Learn the muscle memory to keep foul-ups to a minimum.

Fremmer
January 28, 2006, 05:44 PM
Be careful with the "fast draw and shoot." Fast is good, until you shoot yourself in the leg and/or foot because you were...going too fast.

You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight -- or to actually hit a deer. :D

STEVE M
January 28, 2006, 05:55 PM
In their duty holster instructions (yes I actually read them) Safariland says

to practice until you can draw and fire/hit in under 2sec. This is with a

mutliple retention duty holster. IIRC the gunsite 250 standard is a hit at 7

meters in 1.5 sec. from the holster.


Reaction times normally run around .1 to .2 sec. for the normal human. A

few can be less, some, more (drugs, alcohol, sleep deprivation ect. can add

to this).


Personally, if I can't draw in under 2 sec. with a carry method, then I

won't use it. With my primary carry method (both uniform and concealed) I

use the 1.5 sec. as standard. (Yes I use a shot timer to check these )

Watch some good shooters, these times are not fast. I have on tape a

guy drawing, firing hitting 5 targets in under 2 sec. and LOOSING the

shootoff at the Bianchi Cup.

You can never be 2 fast!!

Double Naught Spy
January 28, 2006, 07:20 PM
Not so...

With the average person's reaction time being about 2 seconds, you have at least 3/4's of a second to draw and fire before the BG even thinks of what to do.

3/4 second is a long time... use all of it!

Sure, go with what Pointer is saying, but you will be counting on the bad guy being on morphine or quaaludes if it takes his 2 seconds to form a reaction to your draw.

I am sure we have all seen the ATM videos where the two bad guys try to rob the good guy at the ATM. He turns to confront the bad guys, each with a drawn gun pointed at him and then realizing that he has about two seconds before the bad guys will react, he draws and fires on both, neither having even flinched because it takes about 2 seconds for bad guys to react. :rolleyes:

Holy crap, Pointer, where did you come up with 2.0 seconds? You are off only by a factor of 10. It is 0.2 seconds, not 2.0

meanoldman
January 28, 2006, 07:33 PM
I like to be able to drop my glass and empty my piece before the glass hits the floor. I can't hit anything but I sure as hell scare everyone.

Pointer
January 28, 2006, 08:18 PM
Holy crap, Pointer, where did you come up with 2.0 seconds? You are off only by a factor of 10. It is 0.2 seconds, not 2.0
I'm not talking about a BG who has already drawn down on you... Much less TWO BG's... Duh! :rolleyes:

ALSO NOTE:

If the fastest WESTERN draw STARTS with the shooter standing at the ready... and it is .44 of a second... it stands to reason it might take longer if he ISN'T ready.

Don't just poke holes for the sake of poking holes... try a little consideration first. :p

Hell, any "County Mounty" or Highway Trooper can tell you that the AVERAGE reaction time is "ABOUT" 2.0 seconds.

RandyDTC
January 28, 2006, 08:20 PM
With the average person's reaction time being about 2 seconds, you have at least 3/4's of a second to draw and fire before the BG even thinks of what to do.


If the BG is standing in front of you with a knife or gun, you can draw and shoot before he can react to your action. That doesn't mean you won't get cut or shot in return. The problem comes in when you are on the other side of the equation - you have to react to an action - say someone charging you with a knife. Then the 2 second Boyd loop in 'on you'.


Holy crap, Pointer, where did you come up with 2.0 seconds? You are off only by a factor of 10. It is 0.2 seconds, not 2.0


It is 2 seconds.
It comes from Col. John Boyd's OODA loop. Google it.
To clarify, this also doesn't refer to someone throwing a punch or other action where your reflexes would control your response. It includes the cognitive process.

Randy

model 25
January 28, 2006, 08:25 PM
An old timer officer by the name of Bill Jordan used to hold a ping pong ball on the back of his hand, then draw his 19 smith so fast that the ball would fall into the holster after he pulled the gun.

No offense ment here but if you are having to draw in a gunfight you have probably lost allready. Watch every real police encounter and you will notice the the cop loses if he doesn't have his gun out when the trouble starts.

Drawing is good for getting the manual dexderity down and to get used to gun handleing but in those times you sense trouble you better have your gun ready. (geez I am a stick in the mud:D )

25

281 Quad Cam
January 28, 2006, 09:42 PM
If the fastest WESTERN draw STARTS with the shooter standing at the ready... and it is .44 of a second... it stands to reason it might take longer if he ISN'T ready.


A bad guy will always be ready... They are robbing, raping, kidnapping or otherwise attacking you. They are no longer part of the whole OODA loop. They are making binary decisions, no cognition required. They have decided you are their victim, a plan to attack, and begun to attack.

If another person is not assaulting or attacking you, you have no right to draw and fire, indeed you have no right to draw. But by the time you have been assaulted... The bad guy, as it were, is no longer relying on cognitive processes. Basically, if you are in mortal danger, the attacker isn't using complex cognitive processes.

You can play basketball or hockey quite quickly. He sees a flaw in the defensive layout, without skipping a beat, a binary decision is made to stay or go, and he is faking left and moving right, another man moves to block, he makes the binary decision to pass or stop, in about 1/5 of a second he is passing. YOU HOWEVER - are the guy on the sideline thinking of something else when the ball hits you in the head. From there it takes YOU 2 seconds to react and decide to play, return the ball, or be a jerk to them.

When the bad guy comes at you, hes already playing the game, hes made the cognitive decisions about the attack, where to come from, to subdue you or shoot you. By the time you're involved in the mess - hes into the game. He's making simple binary decisions about how to achieve pre-set goals! You were daydreaming about an ACOG when BAM, you become aware of a rotten situation, NOW YOU RUN THE OODA LOOP, not him.

You are behind the curve. You have to make the cognitive decisions to determine if you are under attack, how bad, if its real, how many attackers - than fight or flight, and the methods to do either.

Situational awareness is everything to cut down on the amount of time it takes you to react. Speed is the key.

James K
January 28, 2006, 09:54 PM
Might I suggest practice in techniques that will allow carrying the weapon at the ready while not openly displaying it? Those techniques allow rapid response without appearing to be the aggressor.

Jim

Pointer
January 28, 2006, 10:20 PM
Jim Keenan

+1

281 and 25

Makes good sense to me...

If I know I'm in potentially dangerous place or situation...
I already have my hand on gun or even have gun in hand.

One thing, though, I think if we were as practiced at drawing as a basketball player is on the "court"... we would react instinctively and the BG's wouldn't have a chance. ;)

Randy

I agree and thank you for the "support".

And of course I think we all "could" be right if the circumstances and scenario fit the occassion... :)

I was thinking of that video of the two militia men pulling on the two LEO's and a whole lot of ammo being fired without anyone getting hit... and then the driver jumps back into his vehicle and drives off at high speed...

I still think the FIRST round needs to be "deliberately" placed.

:)

281 Quad Cam
January 28, 2006, 11:06 PM
One thing, though, I think if we were as practiced at drawing as a basketball player is on the "court"... we would react instinctively and the BG's wouldn't have a chance.

That is the holy grail.... To be "playing all the time." Always aware of the situation, always ready for action. The greatest part of this concept - bad guys often dont attack or attempt to prey on those who are alert and ready. They realize that their prey is already "in the game" as it were. And so they also know that they don't have a time advantage there.

The bad guys seek those who are not "in the game." They wanna hit that guy sitting on the sideline talking to his girl at the game. They want to prey on the man who isn't aware of the situation - and thus they can get a time advantage on.

To put it in terms of the OODA concept. They want to prey on someone easy, who will have to run the whole OODA cycle before responding to their attack. That gives them the time advantage, and speed is everything.

If you're going to be in la-la land... You'd better be a quick draw. Otherwise you still need to be pretty quick! :D

Powderman
January 28, 2006, 11:57 PM
The world's fastest Western fast-draw, pulls, cocks, shoots and re-holsters, in about 44 hundreths of a second.


Not quite.

The world's record is held by Bob Munden, who shoots as the factory rep for Browning. His time for the first shot is .02 seconds. That's two hundredths of a second!

An interesting bit of firearms trivia, and not so well known is that the second fastes shot was done by Sammy Davis Jr. He was clocked at .07 seconds.

And, as for the time a BG can get a shot off at you, it has been documented and proven that a person can get off a shot at you in .09 seconds. That's nine hundredths of a second--faster than most people can blink!

lightfootMT
January 29, 2006, 12:24 AM
Powerderman, could you post a link to a website verifying those speeds of 2/100th of a second, that seems too fast for me to believe. I can believe 44/100ths to pull-cock-fire-and rehoster.

Quote: The world's record is held by Bob Munden, who shoots as the factory rep for Browning. His time for the first shot is .02 seconds. That's two hundredths of a second!

bermo61
January 29, 2006, 12:43 AM
Great thread!

Everytime I go to the range i see the same thing....people have one dimensional shooting practice. Weaver or police stance...and slow firing round after round. AAAAAarrrrrrrrggggghhhh! It drives me crazy because i know these people will get themselves killed in a gunfight. The good news is that statistically they will never see one.

Practice strong and weak hand...double taps..head shots in case of body armor which anyone can buy on e-bay nowadays. Reloading and firing...emptying the mag as fast as possible.

And then get some snap caps and do lots of dry firing practice from the hip or from whereever you carry....also close range where you have to hip shoot.

practice in the desert...firing from behind cover both sides...jog around and then when you are winded...check you accuracy...you won't believe how bad it sucks under stress or simulated stress.

And play paintball..lots of it. Its fun anyway and teaches you a lot about on the run tactics.

If you do all this....you MIGHT have a chance at being prepared in a gunfight!

lightfootMT
January 29, 2006, 12:55 AM
for a link, I looked him up myself. so happens i dont live that far from Butte, MT. But i will still have to see exactly what he is doing in .02 seconds.

snolden
January 29, 2006, 01:02 AM
As has been stated before, if you aren't in condition orange or better when trouble goes down, you are likely dead or seriously hurt already.

You have to be AWARE!!!!!!

Also, remember distance and cover. Practice shooting and drawing while moving. Go over what-ifs. My favorite is: My girlfriend, kids and I are together when trouble happens. What do you do with them to protect them? Do you do it first or draw and address the threat first? The correct answer varies depending on your skill and the situation.

If you are within 10 feet or so, a simple lateral step will throw you far enough off his line that he will have a hard time reacting and hitting you in a vital organ. This is what I practice over and over. Slide step left, weak hand up to do a palm strike or a eye jab while drawing. I can do that and get two shots off from a protected gun position within 2 seconds. I can retreat to cover and get a third aimed shot in shortly after that.

Cover, distance, angled or lateral movement away from the threat. Those are tactics that increase your odds tremendously. Of course there are some times that it is just your day to die. Run, fire some semi aimed shots while moving if possible (clear shot or angled downward), just get the hell away from them.

Do not stop moving. If you stop moving you are dead.

Powderman
January 29, 2006, 03:39 AM
No prob, Lightfoot. :)

I saw him (Bob Munden) during an exhibition shoot in El Paso, TX, during the '80's. To say that this guy is awesome is the understatement of the year.

I saw this guy draw and fan two shots from a Colt SAA so fast it sounded like an MP5 cycling. This guy is almost unbelieveable!

Koz
January 29, 2006, 11:04 AM
This talk of quickdrawing reminded me of this article.

http://www.gutterfighting.org/jellybryce.html

Oh, and the average reaction time is .2 seconds, not 2.

k9lwt
January 29, 2006, 11:32 AM
To answer the original question, low 1 second times. We did this drill recently with large and small steel poppers at around 15 yards. Most of the guys were doing mid 1 second, two of the faster shooters were right around 1.04/1.06 seconds and 1 shooter had a sub second time of .97 seconds. This was with a timer (IPSC/IDPA), drawing from the holster and hitting the steel target. It was a fun and interesting drill that I initially thought was going to be boring.

Weeg
January 30, 2006, 05:30 AM
Grip-Clear-Acquire-Engage


Rinse, later and reapeat


.

Acegoesbang
January 30, 2006, 06:14 AM
i shoot everuything befor i through it away just about lol

superdude
January 30, 2006, 02:50 PM
If you can pull your gun and fire like most people sign there name, I think you will be in good shape. I sign my name around 20 to 25 time a day, I have gotten to a point I dont evern have to look at it. I keep seeing people say to get you mucles to remember the actions. It seems like some soud advice. In the end practice makes perfect. If you do have to pull and fire on some one all the actions should be smooth as silk.

Pointer
January 30, 2006, 03:11 PM
Kos

Cool article...

However, too much missing info.

Also a photo series would measure from grabbing the gun to firing the gun...

The western speed draw is measured from the time the shooter releases the start button to the time the bullet impacts the target... and stops the clock.

The time is actually stopped a couple of nano-seconds before the gun is back in the holster.

Reaction time is just what it says... It is how long it takes to REACT to the threat... AVERAGE reaction time of the AVERAGE person is, in fact, about 2 seconds!!!!!!!!!

We have no idea from what stance, or what kind of holster, or where he was wearing the hoster, Agent Jelly Bryce was drawing from...

However, credit where credit is due... Agent Bryce is a perfect example of how a well-practiced draw-and-shoot can catch a BG unawares. 10 BG's are dead because of his excellent ability to draw and place his shot in a professional, deliberate and un-hesitating manner... Hence he lives... the BG doesn't... :D

(See my earlier posts, this subject)

If you want to test this... stand beside your friend who is at the ready and pointing his gun at the target...

Then you stand where he can see you, slighlty closer to the target than your friend. Then you draw, deliberately, not too fast, and put a round in the target... Your gun will very likely go off first...

This will ONLY serve to show you that his reaction time is not as fast as you think it is... and remember... HE WAS READY FOR YOU.

The more practiced you get... the more pronouced the differential will be... remember, also, he will begin to see your "tells".

DO NOT READ ANYTHING ELSE INTO THIS EXPERIMENT
JUST TAKE IT FOR WHAT IT'S WORTH... A DEMO OF REACTION TIME AND NOTHING MORE!!

:)

Hard Ball
January 30, 2006, 05:20 PM
"We have no idea from what stance, or what kind of holster, or where he was wearing the hoster, Agent Jelly Bryce was drawing from.."

Actually we do. It was documented in thea November 1945 issue of LIFE magazine and timed by high speed electronic flash photography.

The stance wasd a forward crouch,
The holster was a Tom Threepersons open top forward rake design worn on the belt on the strong side.
THe pistol was an N frame .357 Magnum revolver.
THe target was man sized,

Double Naught Spy
January 30, 2006, 10:28 PM
I'm not talking about a BG who has already drawn down on you... Much less TWO BG's... Duh!

Oh I get it. You are going to quick draw first on the "bad" guys who don't have out guns, or don't have out other weapons that would readily justify to witnesses the reason for your draw? Witness accounts will portray you as the gun happy bad guy. I like the preventative tactic, but it may be a hard sell. I have trained several places and nobody suggests drawing down on folks who aren't showing weapons or blatantly overt signs of being about to do you harm.

Have you used this often? Have you had luck with the courts using it?

pickpocket
January 30, 2006, 10:37 PM
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Practice that way.

gordo b.
January 30, 2006, 10:45 PM
If you are in well covered CCW(like UNDER a shirt like original post) and have a deadly threat suddenly appear UNEXSPECTEDLY I'll bet NOONE out there gets a COM hit in less than 2 seconds. :p
The real world is much different than the range!:rolleyes:
However that 2 seconds that the master CAN do it is plenty adequate!:cool:

BreacherUp!
January 31, 2006, 12:10 AM
I used to be a regurgitator of the phrase," slow is smooth, smooth is fast." That means slow equals fast, for those with less math genes than me. Doesn't compute. Nor does it in reality.
Trainining should start out smooth, to get the mechanics down. If you're comfortable, you're really not pushing yourself. We should all come to a point where we are getting a little wild. Crank it down a notch, and work until that is smooth. Ever increasing speed and accuracy. I was able to train with and watched Scotty Warren draw and fire. He looked like a spaz. To him, he was in the zone. He definitly was not slow, he was fast. But he was fast and smooth. BIG DIFFERENCE. I believe if you're sitting on your backside, not wanting to increase your speed and accuracy b/c some dead cowboy said being slow and accurate is good enough, you are selling yourself short.

281 Quad Cam
January 31, 2006, 12:11 AM
I've grown up with "The time to have a gun in your hand is BEFORE trouble starts" method. I've often heard people downplay the importance of even having the firearm readily available (IE in a zipper pouch taking 15 seconds to deply) because they assume they will have the gun in hand before anything bad happens. Awareness can take you a long way.... but be realistic.

Not only do I see a flaw in the circumstance that you are attacked without warning or interview... But it's very hard to get away with legally. Even in cases where the evil do have intent, deploying your weapon before they assault you, is intent on YOUR part... Reality doesn't matter, courtroom theatrics do.

From a survival standpoint - go for it.
However I don't consider prison to be living, so keeping my freedom plays as large a role in my carry etiquette as simple survival. I may even prefer to die than be labeled a convicted murderer, social scum, with life in prison. Some would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but I can't bring myself to be comfortable with that.

So from that personal standpoint, which no one else has to share... I place emphasis on the speed of deployment. I DON'T train for documented averages. I DON'T train for numbers calculated by defense guru's. I train my mind to believe the bad guy will react instinctively and quickly.

k9lwt
February 1, 2006, 10:12 AM
Double Naught,

I didn't post it, so I'm not sure, but I think the point is that you need to be able to draw and rapidly fire on threats that are not necessarily guns. I need to be able to quickly and rapidly stop a threat with a knife, hammer, shovel, axe, etc. If two people have (or even one person has)already drawn on me, I'm in trouble either way.

pickpocket
February 1, 2006, 03:04 PM
That's pretty much what it means, man. The point isn't to start out slow and smooth and then stay there forever. The fundamental principle of the "slow is smooth, smooth is fast" ideal is that if you practice slow and smooth then the speed comes naturally. It's all about muscle memory...if you practice fast and jerky and all jacked up, then that's how you're going to consistently perform. ..doesn't matter how cool you think you look in the mirror. If you practice slow and smooth and work your way up, then speed will be a natural byproduct of your training...speed shouldn't be your ultimate goal, it should just be something gained along the way.

There will be plenty of people who have enough personal experience to disagree, but I know what I have taught and what works for me. This is a tried-and-true philosophy for dynamic entry and CQB, it's how I learned, and it's what works for me.

Don P
February 2, 2006, 07:16 PM
Ok folks, here's my .02 worth for the question. Practice is a given! I was on the prowl one night and found some info. First in looking for a private range or gun club I met a member of the U.S.P.S.A. His suggestion was to join either USPSA or IDPA. Both of these organizations will give you what we are looking for. Practice at drawing and getting your shots off and making them count while being timed. The gentelman that I spoke with stated that he can, from the sound of the horn draw and let the first shot go in 8th's of a second. His statement is practice, practice, and practice some more. I do realize the competetors are using holsters made for competing, but that is quick. So IMO join either club and who knows where it may lead. He also stated a private club that you have use of from sun-up to sun-down will be a great help with the practice end of things. I'll be attending my first match on the 18th of this month.
I was told for equipment the holster must cover the trigger guard and you will need a total of 4 extra mags in pouches. Be prepared to use approx. 150 rounds for the match. 9mm is the minimum caliber for auto's and a 10 round clip. Give it a go! What do you have to loose?:cool:

Koz
February 3, 2006, 09:31 PM
Reaction time is just what it says... It is how long it takes to REACT to the threat... AVERAGE reaction time of the AVERAGE person is, in fact, about 2 seconds!!!!!!!!!

I don't know how you are defining "reaction". but the average response time from stimulus is .2 seconds.

bruchi
February 4, 2006, 01:42 AM
That is how low the documented accuracy of TRAINED LE drops to in real life gunfight situations from 95% accuracy at the range.

Situational awareness is number one, but there are so many posible scenarios that you can be caught with your pants down and need to draw fast and shoot.

I drove a gypsy cab in one of the worst neighborhoods in LA in the late 80's and saw plenty then. My biggest scare was not the gangbanger that held a gun to my head as a stunt to see if I would soil my underwear, it was the hooker that on April fools day got in and as I turned around to ask her destination she blasted at me one of those little plastic bottles that you pull a cord and confetti strings pops out. For an instant I believed I had just been shot, the last thing on my mind was the box cutter I kept under my leg for defense while I drove.

I got hooked to the adrenaline rush, every pasenger was a new adventure, you develop street skills very fast in an eniroment like that, got wise and got out after seeing another driver hold a rag ot a fellow cabbie's head after being shot point blank with a 38, he suvrived but I still catch miself checking my surroundings via my car mirrors when I park at the mall.

I personally believe that the one that fires first has the advantage, once someone blasts at you, even if he misses the shock will leave most of us, particularly those that have neer been there before (most of us for sure) unable to react like the "Rambo" we all like to think we are.

Another thing is that the one to fire first, even if he misses has already the gun out and ready to go for a second, third, fourth... shot. You have to be incredibly cool to just stand there and take aim to return fire in an accurate enough fashion to put two on the chest and one in the eye!

And it can be done, a competition shooter here bumped into a BG fleeing a robbery and got shot in the process, the BG saw the gun on the guy's waist and shot him in case'. The shooter got 2 shots from the floor before passing out, one went into the BG's side, the second also going through the car window killed the BG entering just in front of his ear as he drove away.

The flipside is that a LEO with many years in the force, admired for being a great shot and winning many range matches, got in a confrontation with a BG, 10 feet from each other emptied their guns at each other, neither one was hit.

Running as mentioned here alrady is not a bad idea, hitting a moving target under strees is not that easy, gives you time to get your gun out and fight proiding you have traned yourself properly to do so.

A similar tread is being discussed on another forum I frequent and one comment is that you react as you train, that cost the lives of some LEO on a gunfight because as they where trained to do they where picking up their spent shells from the floor in the middle of battle!

detructo4130
February 4, 2006, 08:55 AM
I don't think you need to worry about drawing fast at all. i have only been shooting for about a year now but i think i take it very very seriously, you know with a lot of respect. I think you might be thinking a life or death situation like its a bad western movie. You might want to consider learning how to draw effeciently before you get to the fast part. I mean there are alot of different holsters out there and alot of different carrying techniques. You need to first find which one is the absolute best for your situation example;do you spend alot of time in a car?, do you just walk everywhere you go?, can you carry open and if so would you be comfortable doing so?, you know stuff like that. after try various different methods start drawing very slowly at different angles and positions and such and hitting a perfect ten everytime. The speed will come after you are completely comfortable, you wont even realize it, it will just happen. Anyhow im not trying to act like a know-it-all because im not, just trying to give honest advice if you want to take it fine if not we all have different opinions. I for one am not even considering fast draw techiniques as i am still learning to be a better shooter in general.

Hard Ball
February 4, 2006, 10:58 AM
AS Jeff Cooper said "Draw as fast as you can! Shoot as slow as you must!"

That's very good advice.

Onebum
February 6, 2006, 09:57 PM
However fast you can draw and shoot ACCURATELY. Numbers are great if you're defending yourself against a Timex, but being effective is key in the real world. I don't think anyone can put a number on how long it will take because situations vary with unlimited amounts. That said...i love quick draws and all that stuff.

The old west folks talk about drawing and shooting strait, not drawing the fastest...I can't think of the "gunslinger"s name, but it was time to throw down and his opponent fired twice before his first shot rang out, but his one was the only one that matter because it hit the target. There weren't many quickdraw gunfights in the old west, at least not nearly as many as you'd think from movies. Might have been Earp that I'm thinking of, but it could easily be someone else.

riverrat66
February 7, 2006, 01:36 AM
bruchi sez:
I personally believe that the one that fires first has the advantage, once someone blasts at you, even if he misses the shock will leave most of us, particularly those that have never been there before (most of us for sure) unable to react like the "Rambo" we all like to think we are.

Another thing is that the one to fire first, even if he misses has already the gun out and ready to go for a second, third, fourth... shot. You have to be incredibly cool to just stand there and take aim to return fire in an accurate enough fashion to put two on the chest and one in the eye!

The flipside is that a LEO with many years in the force, admired for being a great shot and winning many range matches, got in a confrontation with a BG, 10 feet from each other emptied their guns at each other, neither one was hit.
bruchi +1

The sound of bullets flying past your head is a sound you never forget! Shooting at paper targets is quite different then shooting at a real person.
snolden sez:
Also, remember distance and cover. Practice shooting and drawing while moving. A simple lateral step will throw you far enough off his line that he will have a hard time reacting and hitting you in a vital organ. Do not stop moving. If you stop moving you are dead.
snolden +1

It may be good to be a "fast draw" and "good shot" but you could end up being both with a knife stuck in your heart!

I'm finding it hard to believe that everyone walks around 100% of the time at the "ready", just waiting to draw and fire. Doesn't anyone ever carry any packages or anything else in their arms. How about heavy coats, sweaters or jackets, no suits or anything to hinder a fast draw? Does your wife/girlfriend never walk on your strong side as not to hinder your draw? How does one draw so fast while sitting down?

I've seen the USPSA or IDPA shoots on TV and they do indeed shoot very quickly and accurately but they don't have anyone shooting back at them either and are most likely using a firearm with a 1# or 2# pull which would not make a very good carry gun. Everyone would love to be able to empty a magazine like they do in the movies but very few people are talented enough to do that, at least not able to hit a moving target that's shooting back at them.

I'd rather take a few extra seconds and draw & shoot while I'm moving and put 1 in their head and 1 in their heart.

Oh BTW, something I learned a long time ago from a Korean martial arts master. If ever accosted by a BG with a knife or gun you should start begging for your life, "oh please don't hurt me!" yada, yada, yada! Pretend you're crying if you have to! It makes the BG think you are scared to death and you're going to be a push over. Take your money out and toss it to him and that's when you make your move because he's not expecting it.

Of course this is just my opinion and opinions are like you know what, everyone's got on! :rolleyes: