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HUBEL458
July 14, 2007, 01:23 PM
Finally going to make able
to make the improvement on
the 87 levergun barrel.
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87up.jpg

HUBEL458
July 22, 2007, 11:56 AM
With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed

HUBEL458
July 29, 2007, 04:33 PM
Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed

Magdaddy
July 29, 2007, 05:40 PM
WOW ! I have barrel envy..

HUBEL458
August 4, 2007, 10:19 PM
More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in
3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.
I did the same. This compares to much lighter
REM Buckhammer slug with more speed. Almost all
the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards.
I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge
to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87.
Will be checking Mossy 395
for a guy who wants to put on
a heavy barrel. Ed

Birdville2011
August 5, 2007, 02:30 PM
you put this on a different forum didn't you?

HUBEL458
August 10, 2007, 11:09 AM
I post the info and testing on various forums,
have about 400,000 views. Sharing the fun.Ed

Rmstn1580
August 10, 2007, 03:06 PM
Wow... just, wow.

HUBEL458
August 16, 2007, 10:05 AM
Here is pic of 695 bolt action
Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long
rifled barrel for it. It has a recoil plate
like Rem/Sav, and two rear bolt lugs..Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss.jpg

HUBEL458
August 22, 2007, 12:22 AM
Read a report that H & H is going to
make Paradox rifle/shotguns guns again.Big bore
mania is catching on.Be able to use
shot and slugs, and with newer alloy
barrels, they'd be hairy like the guns Rob and
I have set up. Ed

BluesBear
August 22, 2007, 01:19 AM
That's good news.



For rich people.

But I'd have to mortgage my house and sell a kidney to be able to afford a Holland & Holland double.

HUBEL458
August 30, 2007, 09:16 AM
I tested in NEF 3' cases, Alliant 2400 with
small primers, Fired ok at 75 deg but when
case cooled there was majority of misfires
and squib loads. Don't reccomend it, not reliable.
Here is picture of Mauser 12ga bolt action
GEHA with a heavy barrel like I will put
on it Make a good slug gun.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/geha.jpg

HUBEL458
September 7, 2007, 08:15 PM
The 12GA From Hell is now on
Ammoguide, the last page of
cartridge list.Ed

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=611

HUBEL458
September 17, 2007, 12:52 PM
Saw info on a break action that
would handle 12ga FH.It is Cole,
with a strong top lock and real wide
strong extractor.Ed

HUBEL458
September 27, 2007, 12:12 AM
Tested 3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small
primers. My chamber is long for our
long brass case, so they work fine.....
600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227,
got 2100. Same slug, 180 gr, 7383 surplus,
got 2100 fps. That's 5800 ft lbs from 12ga
plastic shotgun cases.Ed

HDTVSELLER
September 27, 2007, 11:45 PM
love the gun!!!

HUBEL458
October 6, 2007, 06:27 PM
Along with testing loads in 3.5" plastic, later tested same loads
in 3" RMC brass cases; and with 600gr slug, same wt 4227 and
7383 surplus powders got same 2100 fps.I got a MEC Super Sizer
coming to size base of plastic and RMC cases. Both are hard to
resize with regular die, but this will save time and allow many
more firings of the cases.Just got 3.5" plastic for dime each,
and this sizer will allow as many firings as the RMC brass.Ed

TPAW
October 7, 2007, 09:46 PM
THIS THREAD IS REALLY GETTING TO BE PLAYED OUT. :barf: ENOUGH ALREADY.:cool: LET'S MOVE ON TO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. ;) AFTER 268 POSTS, WHAT MORE CAN BE SAID THAT HAS NOT ALREADY BEEN REPEATED A DOZEN TIMES?

BluesBear
October 8, 2007, 03:34 AM
What's with all of the yelling TPAW?

How about you redirect some of that anger towards the person holding the gun to your head making you read this thread? :rolleyes:

There are some of use who have been following the evolution of this since the beginning and who are still interested in future developments.
In other words, shut up and go away.

TPAW
October 8, 2007, 07:34 AM
BluesBear writes

shut up and go away.

My post was JMO. If you took offense perhaps you should lighten up a little. Personal attacks are not welcomed here. Additionally, before you post again, might I suggest you read the Forum Rules.

HUBEL458
October 12, 2007, 11:49 PM
A lot of research with different guns, and equipment is
still being done, and planned. We just want to share.
A bullet fella contacted me and he will make
750gr jacketed 12ga slugs for buck and a half.
He uses Corbin equipment, and that is a very
great price as others have quoted almost
50% more. Minimum order 500 bullets.He
has to get couple pieces of punch and die
tooling to make them .729" to fit most rifled
barrels, and he will get tooling if we pay
half, which is 300 bucks. I want to find
10 guys to put in 30 each plus order 50 or
a hundred and we have him get tooling ordered.
Contact me so I can see how many want to get
in on the deal.Then after I tally everyone
I will get back to you for the funds for dies
for you to send the them to him..Here is pic
of a sizer we got that does plastic
cases back to factory specs in few seconds
and allows 3 times more reloads. It will
also do the RMC cases I have. No more cases
sticking in dies, or spending 5 min
to get them sized only half assed.ED.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mec.jpg

HUBEL458
October 20, 2007, 11:03 AM
Here is the Enfield I reamed out to feed 12 gauge and BMG
size cases. I added two rear bolt locking lugs, one the huge bolt
handle and another added that locks in rear bridge. The front lugs
still contact on their top 40 %. This is concept from earlier shown
Mauser shotgun conversions, where they were made from 98
Mausers, giving a bolt action 12ga.This one is chambered for
my belted 700H 3.25" case, as a load developement test gun.
Loads up to 825 gr at 2500.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/325b.jpg

HUBEL458
October 25, 2007, 09:26 PM
The three From Hell cartridges----
My 28GA FH, 2nd Our 12GA FH, can
you guess the 3rd?. What do readers think. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8fh.jpg

FirstFreedom
October 25, 2007, 10:26 PM
I think: "Great googily moogily - what the hell is THAT?!?" :eek:

HUBEL458
October 26, 2007, 10:32 PM
It is the 8GA From Hell, a real cartridge. 4.3 inch long
brass case. 8 ga shorter plastic case, plan on in same chamber.
Looking now for guns or actions and barrels. I make it
from 20mm Suzy brass(20mm Hispano Suiza), by putting
on a 8ga size rim and reshaping like we did 12GA FH....Ed

Eghad
October 26, 2007, 10:38 PM
Awesome....I want to see the finished levergun :eek:

HUBEL458
October 29, 2007, 09:27 PM
Here is a bolt action bmg upper that would take my
700HE and 12GA FH. Right now $1000, decent price
compared to others.Just change barrel. Ed

http://www.longrangesupply.com/images/bohica/leftside.jpg

Hello123
October 29, 2007, 11:06 PM
Ed, why don't you post a pic of yourself. I am not funny or anything, but I would like to see the man that sits behind these creations.:)

sharpshot08
October 30, 2007, 11:19 AM
That gun is amazing :eek:

Magnum Wheel Man
October 30, 2007, 11:35 AM
HUBEL... I've followed this thread, & been wanting to do a project similar on the 10 gauge...

... do you know any place to get rifled choke tubes or someone who could build one for a 10 gauge barrel ???

I've been thinking this would be an interesting starting point for self abuse...

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=27889&stc=1&d=1193762093

HUBEL458
October 30, 2007, 12:04 PM
Back in the thread where I posted picture of my guns
leaning up against my " Safari Car " , I'm in the pic.
As far as 10ga choked rifled tubes no idea. Might be cheaper
to just get a NEF 10ga Ultra Slug Gun ready to go, about
250 bucks, already rifled heavy barrel.Nice gun.Ed

Magnum Wheel Man
October 30, 2007, 01:06 PM
ED... thanks for the tip... but I've been to thier website many times in my research

http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/ultraSlug.aspx

yes they have rifled 12 gauges, but I have been unable to find any listings for 10 gauge rifled slug guns, as that would be an interesting & cost effective starting point for load & projectile developement ( I could also possibly machine a choke tube to fit either the Browning or Remington repeaters from a rifled barrel if I could find one...

... please understand, I'm not trying to out do what you have already done ( which is amaizing ), only trying to do something a little different... thanks again... MWM

HUBEL458
October 30, 2007, 10:31 PM
I plan on testing a few hopped up loads in a 10ga
smoothbore I have here this winter. I want to see how
our powders work with 10ga smooth slugs, compared to what
factory loads with shotgun powders do.And if someone like you
does it in a heavy NEF, along with testing I
will do on lighter barrel double, that makes experimenting
easier for all of us and I will get whatever info developed around
the net for 10 ga owners. Ed

BluesBear
October 31, 2007, 06:32 AM
Both the Pardner® Turkey Gun and Pardner® Waterfowl (http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Shotguns/pardnerTurkey.aspx) come in 10 gauge and 12 gauge. They use the same receiver on both gauges so the chamber diameter of both the 10 ga and 12 ga barrels are the same. So rechambering the 12 ga barrel to 10 ga is quite easy.

What I'm wondering is if there is enough wall thickness to have the 12 gauge barrel bored out and rifled to 10 gauge? There might be enough metal in the walls to remove the .036" needed to go from the .729" smooth to a .775" groove diameter bore. There wouldn't be much more metal removed than when backboring.

Magnum Wheel Man
October 31, 2007, 06:59 AM
BLUES.... I spent a week or so contacting a wide array of barrel makers choke tube manufacturers, etc... & was unable to find anyone with the tooling to rifle a 10 gauge barrel or choke tube...

admitedly the SP-10 repeater with the thumbhole stock is a very attractive base gun ( though it's hugely expensive when compared to the "handi's" ) so I would not be opposed to buying a Handi, even buying a barrel blank & having it fit to the gun, ( I could get that done locally pretty easily, if I could find anyone that could do 10 gauge rifled barrel or choke tube rifling )... I thought I'd read a few years back, that the difference in accuracy between a fully rifled barrel, & the same slugs out of smooth bore with a rifled choke tube was very marginal so I'd be happy to start with either...

... after that, a projectile will need to be chosen... a 1.75 ounce slug would be a shoulder buster, but would litterally shoot rainbow patterns... so a saboted "bullet" would likely be a better option, I could have some bullet molds machined ( again pretty easily ), as just using an existing bullet in that huge bore doesn't seem right, & buying .600 or bigger bullets seems costly, especially since I have almost a ton of lead on hand for bullet casting...

BluesBear
October 31, 2007, 07:31 AM
Hmmmmm, let's see who can do a rifleed 10 ga?
Have you contacted any companies that do custom black powder guns? What about the guys who make ¼ scale cannons? Thay might be able to do something in a bigger bore.

I have a Browning extended (4"), rifled choke tube that I use on my Winchester 1300 Defender. It's pretty dang accurate with anything I've put through it so far. Even the sabot bullets (I just can't bring myself to call a .45 fired from a 12 ga a "slug") that are marked "for fully rifled barrels only" shoot well.
I figure the Paradox guns were good enough for the big game hunters a hundred years ago and in essence that's what I have with my setup, a 12 gauge paradox repeater. :D

If I ever get around to finally getting my casting area set up I'm thinking of some nice large lead boolits that will fit nicely in a 12 gauge brass case since, in essence, the inside of a 12 ga brass case is 11 gauge. I'm thinking that very hard cast wouldn't lead the smooth bore and that looong tube would give it enough spin. I'm not looking for real long range. Just the ability to drop anything that walks on, swims in, flies above or might invade, the planet, up to about 150 yards. Plus I like the ability to quickly switch it over to shot loads.

Magnum Wheel Man
October 31, 2007, 08:02 AM
I contacted several blackpowder & all the shotgun & rifle manufactrers that I could find with a few days of "Googling"

very few replyed back, but all that did, said they didn't have tooling to do a bore that size...

sounds like we are of the same mindset for a goal on the "big 10"

Magnum Wheel Man
October 31, 2007, 08:21 AM
Funny you should mention the Cannon manufacurers, ( I had a thread on them here a while back... I always wanted a pair of them up by the house on each side of the driveway :eek:... my tastes are bigger than my wallet :D

I have several makers bookmarked, but I think all they do are smooth bore cannons ???

HUBEL458
November 4, 2007, 11:37 PM
8ga, we gonna do a couple, first one a test
gun in an Enfield with rear locking lugs.
All locking is in the rear, it is not exactly like
my 700HE one, lugs seats all gone in the
front like a Mauser shotgun.
May have a way to get barrels 'fast'---
fast being like 2 weeks, from the time I
have money to do it. And only about
150 bucks each.......Am working on it.
In pic you see long case sticking out of
the action, a couple 8ga plastic cases, a
couple of the 8ga kiln slugs, 3 oz and
hardened. Am looking for a slug built like the
Federal 10 ga one that has rounded nose
and hollow base, that will fit bores tight.
The barrels I am working deal on will be smoothbore.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8fhe.jpg

HUBEL458
November 9, 2007, 11:37 PM
Finally my Long Tom.....Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/87L.jpg

HUBEL458
November 12, 2007, 10:54 PM
We're going to test smoothbore slugs in 87
like these Brenneke KOs with our special
powder loads to get velocity up. Many guys are
getting accuracy with these in smooth and
rifled barrels, and I going to see if they
will stay together and be stable with speed added.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bren.jpg

HUBEL458
November 18, 2007, 01:25 PM
Got an 8ga barrel blank being made now,
will be here end of the week.Found this
info on plastic 8ga kiln gun loads, they
load a frangible 710gr slug at 2300-
for 8300ft lbs, load 1275gr hard slug to
1700, 8100 ft lbs. We will outdo those easy
with our non-shotgun powder loads, in
a heavy barrel.Ed

HUBEL458
November 30, 2007, 09:47 PM
Tested 35" smooth barrel in 1887. Got couple
1 oz foster slugs over 2400, with 110gr
of 4227. 3" plastic case, regular primers.
The 28GA FH cases on the way.Chambering
bolt gun for it now..Ed

HUBEL458
December 5, 2007, 12:05 PM
In the 87 long smooth barrel got
1 oz Brenneke to 2400 with 110gr
of 4227, You could use 4759 and
VV110 also at lesser amounts.
Barrel is cylinder bore size.
Brenneke slugs need no wads as the
locked on wad works good.Ed

HUBEL458
December 12, 2007, 01:19 AM
In the long barrel 87 got 600 grain
Dixie over 2000, got a Buckhammer slug
I took out of factory load over 1900.
Buckhammer and locked on wad is 630
gr. Tested in 3" plastic cases.

The firing pin on the 87 didn't protude out
like I like them to as it comes from factory,
so I removed .015 from the hammer stop.
It fires big and small primers perfect.Ed

HUBEL458
December 21, 2007, 01:05 AM
10GA FH..a NEF 10ga, medium to heavy wt smooth barrel.
28" long, gun weighted to 14lbs. factory FED 765gr loads
are 1300 fps. 200 gr of first powder tested is 7383 surplus
and the regular shotgun primers got 765 gr to 1600,
for 4300 ft lbs. Case won't hold anymore 7383.
We will test 4227 with the same slug , and saboted slug
of some design. The 765 gr Fed slug is hollowbase for
smooth bores. Roll crimped with crimper in drill press.
Case expansion with 7383 very little(.006") like
the factory loads. 3.5" plastic cases.Ed

Magnum Wheel Man
December 21, 2007, 09:12 AM
Awesome... who's pulling the triggers on that gun ???:D

HUBEL458
December 21, 2007, 07:36 PM
I am-it isn't bad as its weight and thick doubled
up pad does the job.It is like my 12ga Nef as far as
weight and pads. Just a single barrel break action.Ed

HUBEL458
December 23, 2007, 07:44 PM
10GA FH info.Fed factory hollowbase slug is .025" smaller than
10ga bore. I bumped it up to the .775" size, by expanding
hollow base. With 7383 that gave another 150 fps.Fast starting
shotgun powders expand base better than much slower 7383.
The Federal factory load has 120gr of wads/seals about 1.4"
long. Better to replace with much more slower powder,
getting better velocity, still at low shotgun pressures.Ed

HUBEL458
December 29, 2007, 08:30 PM
Look real close at the bases of these
cases. What do you see. Comments...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/pc.jpg

HUBEL458
January 1, 2008, 11:01 PM
Santa sent me the three on right.
The left two are our 12gaFH cases we had
rims added to bmg cases, to make them.
What do you think. We may have found a case source
that doesn't involve putting on rims.Our fellow who made
our first cases has retired.. If any of you can help find these cases
it will be appreciated.They are Proparms cases, used in short barreled
cannons for bomb disposal. These cannons of different makers are
mostly of 12ga size, a lot using 12ga plastic cases. Proparms uses
brass case. It is exact size of ours. There are many hundreds of
these in bomb aquads, the military, etc. The company doesn't reload so
if fired brass is surplus, maybe all of us can round up some. .... Ed

HUBEL458
January 5, 2008, 01:46 AM
In 10GA NEF 110gr 4227 got 765gr slug
to 1800, ejected ok. If it was a really
heavy barrel it could do more.Using the
7383 surplus at 150 gr, don't even have
to resize to fire 3 times. The 28GA FH
done and testing in next couple weeks.Ed

HUBEL458
January 9, 2008, 06:38 PM
Fired 28GA FH-- Cases extract easy.--It is
in bolt action Enfield. With 550gr jkt slug,
full load 150 gr of WC-860, got 1900 fps.
This will be slowest load and powder.
In picture is 3.25" brass 28ga cases, regular
28ga plastic case, jkt slugs, a 458Win
for comparison.Regular cases work also.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28fhb.jpg

HUBEL458
January 12, 2008, 06:03 PM
28ga cases are made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge,
Barrel is rifled with 4 grooves, 1-22 twist.
You could do one on Savage 210.Another
shotgun bolt action that would handle it
with little work, heavy barrel, is the
395-495-595-695 bolt action Mossberg.
Just show that 28GA FH isn't puny, here is
picture of it next to a 505 Gibbs.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28fhg.jpg

HUBEL458
January 18, 2008, 10:10 PM
Here is picture and info on Royal
Arms' site for hopped up 12ga loads,
used in little cannons for bomb work.
Anyone got any of these fired that I could inspect to see how they are built.ED

http://www.royalarms.com/EOD/ammo/canonammo.gif

Tom Matiska
January 19, 2008, 02:09 AM
Been following this thread and looking at the new Itaca M37 Deerslayer III... and I'm drooling....

http://www.ithacagun.com/deerslayer3.html

HUBEL458
January 19, 2008, 02:41 PM
It does look fairly heavy barrel. I will find out
the barrel alloy and muzzle size from them.
Gun has a nice quality look. Ed

Tom Matiska
January 19, 2008, 06:19 PM
The new Ithaca with some warm 3" Hubel's could be as much whoop a** as you can get in a pump..... unless Remington offers their 7600 in the 458 Win.....

HUBEL458
January 21, 2008, 08:35 PM
Should be great quality at over 1100 dollars.
I'm sure they will be swamped with orders.Ed

HUBEL458
January 27, 2008, 10:55 AM
I like the Savage 210 so I'm putting
a 700 barrel on one and chambering for
my 700H 3.25 case. Working on it now.
Should get the same energy levels as
the 12GA From Hell case in same action.
In pic is 700H case in the action. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/325c.jpg

HUBEL458
January 30, 2008, 01:40 AM
Here is pic showing process of making my
700cases from BMG brass.Shows the steps,
first bmg case, next the belt formed, last case
expanded to 700 cal with slug.
An 06 case on right for comparison.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/process.jpg

HUBEL458
February 5, 2008, 10:52 PM
28GA FH research. Guy on other forum suggested using 54cal
rifled barrels for 28ga as they are easy to get. I looked into
it and did some testing. It is ok as long as you keep bullet
about 400gr as most 54cal barrels are not super alloy.
And everyone with 28ga wants slugs and there is no slug loads
from factory, and to reload the heavier bullets we shouldn't use
these barrels or regular 28ga barrels with 600-700 gr slugs.
But there are couple dozen 54cal bullets out there
stocked all over the gunstore shelves, in weights from 300 to
450 gr. There are heavier but for 28GA FH on deer 400gr is
great. I tested the 405 gr copper plated Powerbelt brand, with
velocities from 2300 to 2800 plus fps. That's 6500 ft lbs.
The 54cal slugs load tight in the RMC 3.25" 28ga case fine by
sizing top a little tighter. Bullet obturates to fit .550 bore
as bullet is hitting target straight. A lot of 54cal barrels
go from 530 to 560. 54cal slugs range from .534 to .560"
There are different sizes of 28ga barrels and chokes,
so some where there is lighter 54cal slug that fits..
And with light slugs the pressure limits with the MRC brass
match top muzzle loading pressures, so these barrels will work.
And great thing is the 54cal barrel guys ain't allergic
to making long barrels. I've shot one MRC case 15 times and
still going strong...Ed

gunsmithing
February 7, 2008, 02:36 PM
I now have all the original drawings for the Wickliffe Rifle, and am about to start manufacturing. My machinist is making a CNC program to make all the parts, so the Wickliffe rifle, and Magnum Wickliffe will be going soon. The perfect action for the 12 guage from hell. Or even a 10 guage from hell for that matter.
H.P.White Labratories did a test on the original rifles, and found them capable of 120,000 units of pressure with no damage done to the action at all.
Our rifles are being made from certified stock, so they will be stronger than the cast originals.

HUBEL458
February 11, 2008, 10:53 PM
28GA FH testing. 405 gr in 2.75" plastic case
got 1400. Tested the Great Plains 54cal
lubed slug, runs from 2200 to 2700. It is
by Hornady and its front band actually measures
.550" and hollowbase. They hit target straight.
Got a bunch of 415gr hollowbase coming that
are 548" from Dixie Gunworks. Only 26 cents each.
All will work in plastic or long brass
case. I found another .550 bbl and coming, and
it will go on a Mossberg 12ga bolt action
for the second 28GA FH to test.. Ed

gunsmithing
February 12, 2008, 08:25 PM
It does not look like a magnum version of the Wickliffe will be made any time soon. We are trying to work out the bugs in the standard grade.
We are working on an adjustable trigger for weight of pull, and engagement. It is not as easy as it seems.
The original rifles designer and I talked about it, and I am working on several ideas.

gunsmithing
February 12, 2008, 08:36 PM
I saw that Ed was thinking about a double in 12FH. The action that he showed had no 3rd locking lug, an important feature in a double rifle, especially one with high pressures. The 3rd lug, be it Purdeys, or Greeners, is for safety in case the other 2 shear from forces. It is the same idea as the Mauser with its 3rd safety lug in the rear.
I built 2 double rifles in 12 guage rifled, and I hope they were only fired with factory rounds, as they had no 3rd lug, or bite,as the British call them.

gunsmithing
February 14, 2008, 09:58 PM
The Wickliffe Rifle Company is in business. We have prices available, and all the vendors on line, to produce the most accurate rifle possible.
I know the guys on this forum will be interested in this, as a 20 guage rifle from hell is not out of the question. We can still churn up more energy than a 50 BMG. And have more fun doing it.
Not to mention the Nitro Express rounds that can be put in.
Let me know at Wickliffe Rifle Company (http://hometown.aol.com/wicklifferifle/WICKLIFFE.html)

HUBEL458
February 15, 2008, 10:53 PM
The older Zabala I have has a third lug. The E-213 model
I showed from a pic on their site is all alloy and heatreated
so it will be strong enough also, but it is costly. I was told is was
tested at over 40,000 psi in 12ga, and action and cases held the loads,
they just had to be knocked out with a rod. I,ve loaded plastic cases
here like that with strong guns. Guns ok, brass pushed out with
a rod, some stil lusable with tight primers.Ed

HUBEL458
February 18, 2008, 10:54 PM
Tested the 415 gr hollowbase slugs in 28GA FH long
brass case. These are ones that Dixie Gunworks sell
that they call their Sharps .548" slug. They all run
about .008 bigger than that so they make perfect tight
fit for .550" barrel, and I used a good lube on them
in the grooves. Same speeds as above for GPs.
They are a little harder alloy slug than
the Powerbelts or Great Plains The 28ga shellholder
for our Lee, Lyman, Rcbs presses , we use, is from
RCBS for regular metallic press rams. For 28ga dies
Hollywood made some for metallic presses.Also for
sizing for bottom 2/3 of the brass case you can cut
top off of the 500J die.The slower powder loads don't
even have to have the bottom half sized, which
is great for a turned case. If we had drawn brass cases
we could get 11,000 ft lbs, in the Enfield, which we
don't really need for deer. 4-6000 ft lbs ok/deer ..Ed

HUBEL458
February 23, 2008, 10:07 PM
I get asked about hopping up 410s with brass cases.
A good drawn case is 9.3 x 74R. It'll work in 3"
410 chambers or shortened for shorter chambers.
I am not doing any just passing on info.Ed

HUBEL458
February 28, 2008, 11:45 PM
Here is picture of a jacketed hollowpoint
12ga slug a fellow is going to make for us.
We hope to have tooling set up this summer
we plan on. Next to it is a 600gr Dixie hardened
slug. First ones he will probably make will
be about 700-750 gr.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12h.jpg

HUBEL458
March 5, 2008, 12:56 AM
The hollow pointed slug above can have a
light plastic/rubber nose for streamlining for
better BC, for 2-300 yard shooting.
In the 87 Win Levergun, smooth barrel,
long barrel, using brass RMC 3" cases,
1 oz Brenneke KO slug to 2700 with 4227
powder. Shotgun primer. I will be getting
some 3.5" RMC brass that he will put a special
longer corner radius in, to allow faster loads
with less case expansion and easier resizing.
Should get same slug to 3000 and resize
easier also. With shotgun primer able to use
4227, and you WON"T have to rework hammer
or firing pin to do big primers.ED

HUBEL458
March 11, 2008, 07:23 PM
Santa sent me 9 more PROP cases used in little
cannons for bomb disposal. In pic, 2 on the left
are our originals, next 3 are resized PROP
cases, exactly matching ours, and then 9
to be resized. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/pc1.jpg

HUBEL458
March 19, 2008, 11:22 PM
Here is picture of the Enfield bolt,
showing the 2 rear lugs I added.
The huge bolt handle base is 3rd lug.
Bolt handle needs polishing.This one
will be in the action for the 8GA FH.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8lug.jpg

HUBEL458
March 26, 2008, 08:30 PM
Here is picture of the 4 slugs I've used in
the 28GA FH load developement in the
3.25" long brass case and they
also work in the plastic cases. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28sl.jpg

HUBEL458
March 30, 2008, 09:11 PM
THE 8GA FH BELLERED TODAY. It is in Enfield I rigged with
rear locking bolt lugs. 32" barrel, tested 3.3" plastic cases.
Cases are the REM kiln gun cases. With the double cup base.
I shaved base a little so that chamber will fire these as well as
regular 8ga plastic. None of the firing today expanded base cups
at all, so they are real strong cases. Started testing to check
ignition with shotgun primers and to see if cases are any
good. Starting with a 110 gr mouse ball, wad under it, and 150 gr
of Blue Dot, about 5000 fps.. Gun didn't even recoil.Then a
410 gr one at 3000 fps, Then a 770 gr hollowbase slug in a wadcup
up to 2000 so far with 180gr of 7383. Barrel is smoothbore. 832"
bore at the muzzle. Ed

B. Lahey
March 30, 2008, 09:40 PM
Mouse ball?

Is it hollow? I'm trying to picture a 110gr 8ga lead ball, but I'm not having much luck...

Is it plastic or something?

HUBEL458
March 30, 2008, 11:56 PM
It is hard rubber computer mouse ball. The heavier 410 gr one has
steel ball inside. It was just something lighter than lead to start
load and gun testing with. Ed

HUBEL458
April 4, 2008, 01:23 AM
Some 8GA FH testing- using IMR 4759, 770 gr slug,
top load of 140 gr, got 2500 fps......
Over 10,000 ft lbs..Cases extract easy.
The plastic in 8ga case is twice as thick as
in 12ga cases. Tried 4227 and case is too large
diameter for dependable ignition.So it's
old dependable 4759..Ed

HUBEL458
April 7, 2008, 11:00 PM
Here is picture of Enfield 8GA FH. You can see plastic case
in the port. Box of cases behind, 770 gr and 1050 gr
slugs in front with the 8ga wadcups I use.
Left two slugs are 1050 gr made from 3 oz kiln slugs.
I rounded nose and put in hollow base. Also the
cards and fiber wads used. Slugs are hollowbase, as
it is smooth bore barrel. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/8en.jpg

HUBEL458
April 14, 2008, 02:28 AM
In picture of the 8ga bolt action you can see the
ring I put on front of bolt to support large diameter
8ga casehead. It is suported against thrust by the
front lugs, and total bolt thrust is supported by rear
lugs and have taken the heavy loads ok.. Ed

ralthoff
April 14, 2008, 12:12 PM
...thats.......AWESOME.........:D

HUBEL458
April 21, 2008, 09:49 PM
Here is picture on left of the 12ga hollowpoint slug
with plastic tip. Makes it streamlined, good for 300yds.
And still will expand good thin skinned game-deer.
I put tip in with glue gun in few seconds, and
shaped a point on it with trim knife. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12hfill.jpg

HUBEL458
April 25, 2008, 11:27 AM
I also have two other cartridges with my name
on them that I am promoting. They are my 700HE
and my 585BHE. They both belted straight cases.
Montana Rifle company is coming out with their
big PH action and some guys will be doing my
cases in them.

Info on the 585BHE. It will work in
any gun that handles 505 Gibbs like Enfield, CZ,
Ruger,etc.Mine is in Enfield.Here is picture of
of one next to Trex. And mine holds 15gr more
powder than that Trex case. 585BHE will do 750
grain from 1800 to 2800 fps in my Enfield.

Anyone interested setting up a gun, contact me
I will furnish reamer and 15 free cases. Cases are
headstamped. When done return reamer to me, for
the next guy. I will keep them sharpened. After a
few guys have guns we all will get together with
others wanting some and get a run of brass made.
I'd like guys to ask for reamer when gun is going
to be ready to chamber, that way reamers get the
most guns done in shortest time.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/heandt.jpg

HUBEL458
May 1, 2008, 12:28 AM
On Fri May 2 8pm on the Science Channel ,they will have
an article about the heavy barrel cannons that shoot
the brass cases for bomb disposal.They are the same as
our 12GA FH case,when resized in my dies and are shown
in this thread a couple months back in picture.
It will show them using them for bomb disposal. Ed

HUBEL458
May 6, 2008, 09:51 PM
Testing 8GA FH in Enfield, 1050 gr slug in wad cup, 120 gr
of 4759, over 2000 fps. Cases extract easy. Hardly any
base cup expansion...Ed

HUBEL458
May 11, 2008, 11:44 PM
Here is picture of a sectioned 8ga plastic case
showing how heavy and strong it is built. The
plastic is one piece compressioned formed and
the sides of the cases are twice as thick as
12ga cases.You can see the double thickness
of the base cup. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8sec.jpg

HUBEL458
May 21, 2008, 07:18 PM
Here is picture of the bolt setup for the 8ga
Enfield we did.Also comparison to a Mauser
12ga shotgun bolt conversion, from which
I got the concept. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bh.jpg

HUBEL458
May 30, 2008, 11:10 PM
I was asked how I got 8ga heavy barrel so quick.
First it is smoothbore, second a 110 bucks total shipping and all.
First I bought a 1.5 inch dia 4130 alloy, heat treated, shaft,
32" long. Then I had a deep hole drilling company drill
a .832" hole in it. Came out centered on both ends.
Then after it got here I used cylinder hone to polish
the inside of the bore. Threaded it, chambered it, and put
in the Enfield bolt action. The heat treating it had was just like
the barrel stock that barrel guys get. Ed.

HUBEL458
June 11, 2008, 11:14 PM
For those wanting to see video of the 12GA FH in
the Savage busting big pail of water, one of the
kids posted it on Youtube- Titled "Grampa's Cannon".
I just found out that it is on there.
This was the video that the still pictures posted
before, was takem from. They have the sound
muted so as not to hurt camera sound system. Ed

HUBEL458
June 17, 2008, 01:52 AM
Load of 12 triple ought buckshot in 8ga. They are
70gr each, total 840 gr, and over 2000 fps with
125 gr of 4759. Ed
Here is URL for the waterpail busting video above--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNHszY4ACM

Moloch
June 17, 2008, 04:16 AM
@ Hubel,

maybe you should jump to blackpowder too to see what you can do there.
I'll get a rifle soon which can shoot a 1'' lead ball weighing approx. 1500 grain with a load of 250grain 2FG blackpowder @ 1500 fp/s out of the 54'' barrel - which makes 7500 ft/lbs, but the guns weighs 34 pounds to not kill the shooter with the recoil. (BP recoils more)
You can get pretty decent big-bore stuff with traditional muzzleloader rifles, and this is as close as you can get if you want a cannon with a buttstock which can be carried and fired by one man. :D

Currently I am shooting cal .69 730 grain conicals @ 1250 fp/s out of my M1847 for target work, still powerful and the deep thunder it generates is gorgeous.

Great work you're doing here!:):cool:

Teppo Sensei
June 20, 2008, 06:49 PM
8 gauge industrial magnum shell with a 3 oz(1312.5 grains)slug has a typical muzzle velocity of about 1744 feet per second and a muzzle energy of about 8,863 foot pounds.

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/ 8ga wads
Ballistic Products Inc. 0000 Super Buckshot about 18rds in a 3.25in
built a 30lb 36in barrel 8ga single shot a few years ago from a nef 12ga parts and scrap metal and an .84in ID 1.5in OD pipe in a 14in long sleeve
had to make a stronger lower receiver moved the serial number
3in silicon buttpad on a fiberglass stock
it was heavy and ugly but worked
recoil and noise was worse than a 50bmg
no1 want to be near you at the range
too heavy for hunting and not legal for waterfowl in the US
slugs kicked much worse than buckshot
NEF 12ga $70 other parts $100 sold for $250 to a friend
wasnt worth the time building i did learn to weld better
8ga 3.25in ind mag ammo is hard to find and not cheap
remington SP8 MAG 3 Oz. Lead was what i start with
wish building a 50bmg was in my budget

HUBEL458
June 20, 2008, 11:00 PM
It isn't bad loading for it now, Primed new cases 70 cents at
BP, and roll crimper for slugs, and use wad cups from BP.
Use 3 oz slugs as is or hollowbase them and give them round
nose, And I also use 10ga 770 gr slug in cups, I just expand
them a little, as they have hollowbase.And you can casrt also.
And on most loads base cups don't expand so you can iron
out the mouth and reload a few times. Ed.

HUBEL458
June 24, 2008, 01:11 AM
There are now two videos of 12GA FH on YouTube,
exploding big heavy walled pails of water.
The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view,
and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video,
the first one, that shows how the top of heavy
shelf got bent. Later kids will do videos showing
muzzle blast and recoil.
Also the 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load
above goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test
8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed

HUBEL458
June 29, 2008, 10:12 AM
I've got extra 28ga alloy rifled barrel now.
So along with first one in Enfield I will be doing one
in Mossberg 695 bolt action. Will add a little weight
to the stock and one of kids will see how it does on
deer this fall.Ed

Oh here is URL of the Grandpa's First Shot Video--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk

HUBEL458
July 3, 2008, 09:24 PM
Here is pic of Mossberg 695 that will be the
second 28GA From Hell.You can see long
brass case in the port. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss28.jpg

HUBEL458
July 12, 2008, 10:05 PM
Somebody suggested this picture to show the
difference between shotgun powder, factory loads
and our loads in plastic and brass as it relates to
increased powder capacity. Factory 3rd case with
small amount of powder(more wads), 2nd case plastic with
larger amount(less wads), 1st, brass case all powder.
This allows us more volume of slower powder.
Also the Videos, 'Grandpa's Cannon', 'Grandpa's First
Shot', are heading up to 3000 views on Youtube.
Any of you who could pass info about thre videos out
over the net, I'd appreciate it. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/3pl.jpg

HUBEL458
July 30, 2008, 11:41 PM
Ok, the fellow who is making the 12ga jacketed hollowpoints
just got all his dies and has a 1000 cups coming for a 1000
bullets. These I pictured before and they will work great
for rifled barrels. Wt will be about 720gr. Ed

laea7777
July 31, 2008, 08:22 PM
Hello Mr. Hubel,

I find your posts fascinating and inspiring, though I must confess I haven't had time to read all of them yet, so I apologize if you have already answered my questions in a previous post.

I am new to the Firing Line forum. I was directed here based on a question I posted in a Gun Owners group on MySpace regarding maximizing the ballistic potential of a 12 gauge pump shotgun while still retaining its versatility (as compared to a rifle).

Are you aware of any companies producing 3 1/2" (super magnum) rifled and/or sabot slugs in 12 gauge? I've found only 2 3/4" and 3" slugs.

I like your idea of using the brass casing from a .50 BMG. I wasn't aware that they were the same diameter as 12 gauge. Would such a cartridge (shortened to 3 1/2") work in a factory Remington 870 28" super magnum barrel, or is it too thin? If it's too thin, are you aware of any companies that produce a heavier barrel for the 870 that would tolerate a brass casing packed full of powder?

Also, I take it that getting a rifled barrel is a good starting point, as the sabot slugs in a rifled barrel generally outperform the rifled slugs through a smooth barrel (please correct me if I'm wrong). I believe Remington makes a 20" rifled 'deer slug' barrel, but I think it only chambers up to a 2 3/4" or 3" casing, though I can't find it on their website now.

I'm just curious about hypothetically maximizing the ballistic potential of a Remington 870.

Here is an excerpt from my other post:

"It seems to me, judging by the size of a 3 1/2" 12 gauge cartridge (compared to a .577 Nitro, for instance), that if it were made out of brass, packed full of powder, with a 600 grain .727" slug, that one could take an elephant [at close range]. I’m guessing that the overall weight of the firearm and the thickness of the chamber and barrel is just too small on a typical pump shotgun to tolerate this level of pressure. Or is there something about the brass that would negate a pump shotgun’s reliability? I know some manufacturers do produce brass shotgun cartridges, but it definitely is not common."

Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

-Luke

HUBEL458
August 3, 2008, 12:38 AM
You'd have to have heavy alloy barrel made for 870.
I'm recommending everyone get 3.5" turned cases from
Rocky Mtn Cartridge as we can't get a large number
of bmg cases with the 12ga size rim added. We figure
RMC cases will get 600gr slugs to 24-2500, in heavy barrel
and/or alloy barrels. But you can reload slugs in 3.5 plastic
with our fast rifle powder loads with a decent length barrel
and get 600 gr to 2100. A better pump for little higher
pressures is the Benelli with turnbolt locking lug bolthead.Ed

HUBEL458
August 6, 2008, 10:21 PM
Here is closeup picture of Rob's 12GA FH Borchardt.
The long brass case shown has one of Rob's 2000
grain solid bore rider 12ga slugs. Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/2430DSC00694.JPG

HUBEL458
August 9, 2008, 01:06 AM
I got my long 700 HE case chambered barrel
finally in a bmg size action. It is barrel
I locked onto an I-beam and got all the
load developement done over the last couple
years. Max load about 23,000 ft lbs.
It weighs 27 lbs, laminated thumbhole stock,
a max size pad, weighted butt, a reinforced
wrist, recoil barrel ring on front of stock.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700helr.jpg

HUBEL458
August 13, 2008, 06:34 PM
Here is comparison of my 700HE on the right,
that is in the above big action, with a
700NE on the left and our 12GA FH center.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/comp.jpg

HUBEL458
August 23, 2008, 09:30 PM
Here is picture of a neat scaled up Sharps replica
that would handle out 12GA FH and my 700HE.
That outside hammer looks great...Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/Bradley50BMG4.jpg

HUBEL458
August 28, 2008, 10:06 PM
Here is a pic of a projectile idea Rob had. We will test it later
this fall, It is 12ga bore rider design Body is Aluminum, and it
will have a heavy 50 cal insert in the nose made from tungsten
or similiar metals. In the picture he put a 50 cal bullet in for
show. The insert in the nose will be flush with front of the
AL carrier. It should be stable at slow twists and if built
with back and front same diameter stable in smoothbores.
The long lighter tail-end compared to heavy nose insert
will make it stable. Same principle Brenekke uses. This idea
is being explored to try to get superior penetration
from 12ga, with heavy, hard insert in the nose.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_01741.jpg

HUBEL458
September 3, 2008, 10:27 PM
Here is another view of my 700HE blaster,
that I got rigged up on an action and stock.
Side view shows action with a aperture sight I
rigged up. Also cases. On left is 700H 3.25" case.
Center my 700HE, what the gun in picture has now.
Good for nearly 23,000 ft lbs, we attained in
a work up in testing with the barrel as a test
barrel with screw on testing receiver....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/helr.jpg

HUBEL458
September 11, 2008, 08:09 PM
Here is picture of a dart type 12ga slug Rob made. Body
is aluminum, it has a heavy tungsten carbide insert in the
nose. The TC in the nose is about 6 times denser than AL.
Total length is 2.35 inches, weight about 950 gr. The .75" long
insert a real tight type fit. Heat AL, put in insert, cools, locks on.
It is fairly streamlined, yet has wide meplat for penetration
in game. Flat points penetrate straighter in game.
It is hollow inside in the back, behind insert which puts the
center of gravity way up front, it should fly straight even from
a smoothbore. They are fast to make and material
less expense than copper.In pic is a copper and a brass 600
cal slugs for comparison. Dart/slug on right has insert.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/00312.JPG

johnwilliamson062
September 11, 2008, 08:29 PM
How about a modern anti-tank rifle? You know, like in WWI. Lets see you put something together that can punch through an M1 Abrams:)

HUBEL458
September 13, 2008, 02:23 PM
Well Abrams have so much thicker, higher strength armor,
that you can't puncture with any conventional non-explosive,
non-rocket projectile, from a shoulder fired gun.
Even WW2 bazookas won't hardly bother an Abrams. Ed

johnwilliamson062
September 13, 2008, 09:54 PM
Well, "God Rods" are kinetic energy weapons with the effect of small tactical nuke, so it certainly can be done.

HUBEL458
September 14, 2008, 11:57 PM
Here are more samples of nice slugs.....Here is pic of the
ones RG Henson sent. Jacketed 12ga. 715gr hollowpoints,
on the right and in front a jkt 675gr hollowbase.
RG's number 1-770-366-4846. These will be great for
shorter plastic and brass cases as well as long cases.
Other slugs in pic, in the back, left to right
Foster 436gr- Dixie 600gr- 750gr brass- my 750gr hollowbase
brass, and a hollowpoint I put a filler in the nose.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12hbhp.jpg

HUBEL458
September 16, 2008, 10:10 PM
Two other 12ga slugs RG may do later on are full
jacketed ones. If interested in the hp one above
contact him at number above. He has to do a bunch
of them to get ahead to do others.And they will be
a fantastic deer, hog, bear slug. He is in Georgia.
Also, any of you who might want some of the 12GA FH
brass cases made from BMG brass, we have the fellow who
had the idea about the 12GA FH first, Rob on AR forum,
is planning on making them. He has got the machines to do
it now, that we didn't have before. Let me know how many
you are interested in getting, so he can plan and figure
the best price. He has a bunch of BMG cases to start with,
he and I have places to get more.I'm posting this all over.Ed

HUBEL458
September 27, 2008, 10:57 PM
Testing 715gr jacketed hollowpoint from RG Henson in Savage 210.
With 30 inch barrel, long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Slightly hairy load 290gr RL22--2700 fps. Shot moderate load
of 300gr W-860 -- 2400 fps for 3 shot group of 3" at 50
yards with my bad eyes and peep sights. They shoot nice, they go
into target straight.. Other nice thing the price from RG,
for customers getting in on his first run, $1.25 plus shipping.
That is less than half of what other big bore jkt bullets cost.
Call him for some great slugs. They are great like
the Dixie slugs. Ed

HUBEL458
October 1, 2008, 09:38 PM
Lookee what another santa sent me.
A regular BMG case on the left, and
a straight BMG case on the right, and it
CAME FROM THE MANUFACTURER THAT WAY.

It is primer cartridge for large guns and howitzers.
It is used in those guns/cannons that have powder in big bags.
It is filled with powder and inserted into cannon breach and
when fired sets off the larger charge. On some cannon breaches
they have an automatic feed for these with a huge 40 round
drum magazine. This on is marked IVI 89 C67. IVI is Canadian.
On these breaches it is held by collet fingers for head space
and for ejection.

Ok, there are many thousands more of these out there than the
PROP cases I showed before. We need to find few barrels of these
and have Rob, etal, put on rims.... no annealing.....no fireforming,
just slight resize to 12GA FH. Please help if you know of any.
They would save so much work and time..And even though fired
the bases are perfectly straight, another plus.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bmgs.jpg

HUBEL458
October 5, 2008, 09:58 PM
Here is a picture of RG's jacketed 715gr slugs in various
loads.First are 2.75" and 3" factory foster slugs\ for
comparison. 3rd is jkt HP in 3.5" plastic case, 4th in a
3" brass RMC case. 5th in a 3.5" brass case with small
primer, 6th in our long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Top hairy load in long case in Savage, 2900..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rgslug.jpg

HUBEL458
October 12, 2008, 08:52 PM
Please notice in the picture above, cases loaded with
the 715 gr jacketed slugs the 3rd and 4th ones.
They both have same 90gr of 4227, same number of
wads shoot at 1700 in 24" NEF barrel. 3rd plastic is
3.5" case, the 4th brass is a 3" RMC. Both have shotgun
primers.The 5th longer case is a 3.5" strong
brass one I made from a PROP case, and when I put
in primer bushing, I set it up for shotgun primer. I
will test it with 4227 powder, 600gr and 715 gr slugs.
Also in a couple months Rob who's idea the 12GA FH
was will be able to deliver the super strong 12GA FH
cases made from BMG brass. And the they will be
headstamped, all done by his CNC machine.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_02111.JPG

GetYerShells
October 12, 2008, 10:54 PM
Quote: "Well Abrams have so much thicker, higher strength armor,
that you can't puncture with any conventional non-explosive,
non-rocket projectile, from a shoulder fired gun.
Even WW2 bazookas won't hardly bother an Abrams. Ed"

Such a weapon is already being used against our tanks and armor in Iraq and Afghanistan. Although it is not really considered a conventional shoulder fired projectile it can certainly be fired from a bipod or mount. It's not really an explosive and it's not really a gun either. It is somewhere in between. It's basically a metal tube packed with a charge and a primer. The projectile itself is just a big chunk of copper made into a slug. So they set up the device, pack the charge, load the copper slug in there and point it at any tank rolling down the road, and set it off. You want to talk about devestating? That copper slug has so much thermal energy when it hits the armor that it litteraly melts it's way through the armor. It turns everything inside the tank into a milkshake or slushy because when it exits out the other side it leaves all it's thermal and kinetic energy in the tank. It is very nasty, and very effective at defeating armor.

B. Lahey
October 12, 2008, 11:08 PM
That's an EFP, there are no tubes involved. It's a dish-shaped sheet of copper backed with explosives. The copper is formed into a big blob-dart traveling at very high speed when the explosives fire.

You can't get that kind of velocity with conventional powder, you need high explosives.

HUBEL458
October 14, 2008, 02:36 AM
The difference is the speed of the powder when it
detonates. The high explosives in an EFP have a shock
wave speed of 20-30,000 fps. Propellants used in cartridges
about 4500-5000 fps.Ed

HUBEL458
October 14, 2008, 08:31 PM
RIP on AR Big bore forum is doing 835 Mossy and 1400gr Darwin slugs.
A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy. Has 4X Sightron in QRW rings. Do 3.5" plastic hulls with the Darwin in it first. It balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggerguard.
It is heavier rifled 24" chromoly alloy barrel.

Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder.



http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1443.jpg

HUBEL458
October 17, 2008, 10:37 PM
Still testing 8ga I have setup in the Enfield.
It has a long smooth barrel. Those 8ga
heavy plastic cases are great. Fire them 4 times with
no resizing. Here is pic of slugs used in 8ga..
One and two are 1015gr hollowbase. Three and 4 are
875gr hollowbase. On four the cushion base is cut off
so I can use card wad and have more room for
powder.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8slug.jpg

HUBEL458
October 21, 2008, 04:21 AM
We got our RMC 3.5" brass 12ga cases. These are turned
cases using shotgun primer. They have nice thick base,
and a good radius in the corner. Got a Brenekke OK 437 gr
slug to 2800 fps, a 540gr Hammerhead slug to 2450. got 600gr
Dixie to 2300, the 715gr RG jacketed to 2130, and a 1400gr
Darwin to 1400 plus. Tested in NEF. Shot one case 15 times
and still going strong, tight primer, with loads running about
20- 24,000 psi.I have pics of cases soon, and we also will
test these brass ones and 3.5" plastic in 12ga Encore
Prohunter..Ed

HUBEL458
October 25, 2008, 11:29 PM
Here is picture of RMC 3.5" cases with variety of slugs,
locked on wad slugs and sabots. There are 3 of our long cases
in back for comparison. The RMC turned cases have shotgun
primer. Case # 4 has 437gr slug in BPI SABOT( finally hard sabots
in 12ga for reloading), #5 437gr Brenekke KO slug, #6 540gr
Hammerhead slug, #7 600gr Dixie hard slug, #8 RG's 715gr
jacketed, #9 750gr solid brass. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rmcc.jpg

HUBEL458
November 1, 2008, 06:35 PM
Here is picture of a 12ga hard discarding sabot you can get
for reloading, the BPI. From Ballistic products. In picture
is sabot with a 437gr Hornady Great Plains 50cal slug I put
in it. Also the 410 gr and 385gr Great Plains work.
Finally able to load your own instead of paying 3-5 bucks
each for loaded rounds.You can use the 500 S&W bullets also
as well as shorter 50 cal blackpowder slugs... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpi.jpg

Moloch
November 1, 2008, 07:03 PM
One question; I see you have used Brennekes, how much velocity will they have with your loads? I ask because I've heard that the lead of the brennekes ist too soft to push it over 1700 fp/s, the air friction will tear the projectile apart. With pure lead it would start about 1400 fp/s.
And if the lead slug withstands the air friction it will fall apart if it hits a target because the lead will become frangible if it hits a soft medium at those speeds.

Watching the whole project with great interest! Those 1015 grain slugs look pretty entertaining! :eek::cool:

HUBEL458
November 2, 2008, 11:41 PM
I took Brenekke KOs out of factory cases and shot them at
2700+ fps. Seem to work fine- hits straight, hardly any lead on
rifling..I think the heavy plastic base picks it up.

Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is
one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200".
It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for
the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail
there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill
welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up
with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF
on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5"
plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore
110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug
in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500.
The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in
forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC
brass cases started in chambers. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nefen.jpg

Papa Smirf
November 6, 2008, 01:05 PM
:(
Very excited about BPI 12 ga sabots but when I contacted them to order
found they can not ship sabots to Canada ...... is there anyone out there that would mail me some .... I would send money order and cover shipping/postage etc

Thanks

Papa Smirf
November 6, 2008, 02:27 PM
Just an added comment

Price of saboted slugs in Canada are rediculous ....... would be great to be able to get some BPI sabots and load my own

Help !!!!!!

Smirf:(

HUBEL458
November 6, 2008, 08:11 PM
You may be out of luck. I got stuff from Can sent
to me but going the other way no good. Ed

HUBEL458
November 7, 2008, 09:33 PM
See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases.
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/smag.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/smagb.jpg

HUBEL458
November 11, 2008, 12:05 AM
Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic
overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and
nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't
tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use
cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases
roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with
my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and
just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of
all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug
in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint
with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases.
Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and
smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when
fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get
the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not
problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding
frong edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right
next to our long original case to show how well it is built
thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rmcs.jpg

gunsmithing
November 12, 2008, 01:59 PM
J.C.Gunsmithing is no longer venturing into the Wickliffe Rifles. Sorry for any inconveniance. Contact Tom Kocis, in Streetsboro,Ohio for infromation.
Thank you

HUBEL458
November 15, 2008, 11:31 PM
What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting.
Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime.

NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5"
with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with
80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through
17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only
lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga
regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside
of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most
other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and
WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length
of the Lyman.

Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test.
Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity
than Blue Dot. Ed

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/IM12Even/IMG_0439.jpg

HUBEL458
November 18, 2008, 11:40 PM
Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases. Ed

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7339/s5000699ow4.jpg

Dawgkilla
November 24, 2008, 03:30 PM
I have been following this for a while and just can't get enough!
Just wondering if any thought had been given to using one of the old bolt action shotguns...specifically an old Marlin "SuperGoose" 10ga.
Looked at one not long ago, super beefy. Guess you'd have to cut the barrel down a bit since it is fixed full choke....any ideas?

HUBEL458
November 25, 2008, 12:02 AM
Here is information and reason for keeping and milling
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. As the bolt pushes top case in the mag forward the
back of case and rim comes to where the tapers widen out so
the case then slides up in front of the bolt.I'm fixing up my
2nd Savage I have set up for my second 700H 3.25" belted case.
Just to see how it will work and along with other guys
doing it, get the info out to people.
This work on the stock/action can be done in a vertical
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on
the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 2.875"" brass long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4".The 730 gr flat wide nose slug protrudes 1/8".
You also have to widen and smooth the ramp going into the
front bridge so case lifts smoothly on the way into chamber.Ed

DZ416
November 26, 2008, 07:19 PM
I have been screwing around with large caliber cartridges for a while now but since I live in Idaho and we hunt with rifles it never accurred to me that you could do things on this scale. We just don't use slug guns. I have a 500 A-Square in a target rifle amongst other things. I have already ordered my 210 Savage and am thinking about both a 585 (577NE) and a 620 (600NE). What I have in mind is to shorten the BMG case to get the same capacity of the nitro Express cases. I want to recess the bolt face, headspace off the shoulder made by necking this rascal down and maybe change the extractors out for a couple Sako style extractors. I can think of a few other changes to make but they are not necessary to list at this point. According to the A-Square manual the 577NE using a 26 inch barrel shoves a 750 gr bullet at 2081 fps using 135 Gr. of RL-15. The 600 NE ( also with a 26 inch barrel does 1943 fps with a 900 gr. bullet using 159 gr. of RL-22. After reading what you guys are pulling off, this seems very possible. I'm not sure of the length of the cases to do these projects as the BMG is larger diameter than the express cases are. I have a project I am finishing now so I am free to do this one. Does anyone know what the Savage 210 action proofs out at? Do you think this is a do-able project? Thanks for the input and by the way, GREAT IDEA!!! Dave

DZ416
November 26, 2008, 07:27 PM
Oh yes I almost forgot. the 577 NE and the 600 NE loads I mentioned are 30,100 psi and 26,700 respectively , Dave

HUBEL458
November 28, 2008, 11:53 AM
Dawgkilla- The Marlin I saw couldn't have the port opened enough
for our long case, or even the 3.5" RMC case with a slug protruding.

DZ416- Thr Savage will handle the 577NE, 600NE, 700Ne at their
pressures or higher as it handled our 12GA FH with bigger base,
at 35-40,000 psi. It is just bolt thrust that the action has to handle
as long as barrel is heavy enough, which is why we put on heavy barrel.
You could say that our 12GA FH at 40,000 was the test load.
As case gets bigger diameter bolt thrust goes up.
As for a shorter case built from the bmg brass there is my
700H 3.25" which I have one in Savage now. And one in a
Enfield, and one soon in my first MRC PH action..Ed

DZ416
November 29, 2008, 04:02 AM
Hubel 458, thanks for reply, What I am going to put together is a 12-13 pound Savage 210 that approximates the power of the 600 NE. I want a short carry version. For long shooting I have a Weatherby Mark V chambered for the 500 A-Square that was made for the high BC BMG bullets. I am getting 2400 fps out of the 750 grain A-MAX. Energy at 900 yards approximates the 458 win mag at the muzzle. What I am curious about is would a 35,000 PSI 50 BMG reach higher velocities than the A-Square at 60,000, Dave

HUBEL458
December 3, 2008, 09:34 PM
My 12ga FH 35,000 psi 730gr load in Savage got 2800 plus.
My 700H 3.25 got 825gr to 2500. So it'll do more.

We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth.
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85", little weight added.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0231.JPG

ThreeStepsAhead
December 3, 2008, 09:41 PM
Would you take a video of that thing shooting a watermelon?

ultimate pink mist.:eek:

:D:D:D

HUBEL458
December 4, 2008, 11:53 AM
We have video on youtube listed above of it doing a 6gal
sealed pail of water. Pail disintigrated, huge
water vapor cloud. Ed

HUBEL458
December 9, 2008, 03:03 AM
Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10brake.jpg

HUBEL458
December 10, 2008, 12:42 AM
More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel,
regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16ls.jpg

fisherman66
December 10, 2008, 12:47 AM
You are one sick puppy.








I like sick puppies, BTW.

HUBEL458
December 10, 2008, 08:08 PM
We can be happy their is no cure for that. Ed

HUBEL458
December 13, 2008, 12:15 AM
Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/neflb.jpg

HUBEL458
December 17, 2008, 11:02 PM
Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16rev.jpg

HUBEL458
December 20, 2008, 10:24 PM
Here is picture of the bolt for my big gun, the 700HE.
It is holding a 700HE long case. The caseholder extraction system
can headspace a BMG rimless case,no belt, so you could
put on a 12ga barrel, straighten case more, from .700 to .729"
and have the rimless 12ga. Could straighten case for a
.750" bore, even to 10ga(.775") with a little thinning of the
top one inch of the case. Experimenting is interesting
to say the least. 700 slugs in pic are 1000gr Woodleigh,
1000gr PA, 825gr Copperhead Custom(CC), 770gr FP CC,
1000gr HP CC, 825gr HP CC..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/vulcanb.jpg

Ozzieman
December 21, 2008, 01:52 PM
You know that this makes you a gun nut far and above all other gun nuts,,,
I am proud of you for building such a monster,,,, but,,,,
You could have saved yourself a lot of work,, you know they did make anti-tank bolt action guns back in the 30’s, 20 or 22 millimeter.;)
You couldn’t pay me to shoot that monster, but I would give any thing to see it hit,,,, say a 55 gallon barrel full of water.:D
That gun deserves to be on Myth busters.

HUBEL458
December 23, 2008, 12:21 AM
Thankyou-When spring gets here we will do a plastic 15 gallon
barrel with top load in the 700 with a hollowpoint. the one
we did with 12GA FH in Youtube video was a 6 gal pail.
There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out,
the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier
loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened
for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed



http://www.rossiusa.com/imagesMain/H_S121230S.jpg

HUBEL458
December 27, 2008, 09:53 PM
The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter.
With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run one
into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy.
Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE
great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug
was reduced .020". With 300gr of super fast ball
powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500.

Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase
jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887
Win levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO
435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got
a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has
34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long
cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore
going from .726" to .722". Took out lifter and other
stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that
is operated by the lever at bottom of opening
stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to
handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey,
neat looking, single shot blaster.Ed

HUBEL458
January 1, 2009, 02:31 AM
Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with
a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better.
It is the one I showed the ported barrel previously.
I did some 10ga FH testing in that newer, real
heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an
8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up
on the end as shown in picture above works great.
I stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil
Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock.
Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug,
135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed

HUBEL458
January 5, 2009, 01:13 AM
A 28GA FH new slug.. The Lyman cast 20ga slug made to
fit in a 20ga shotcup for 20 ga slug hunters, works perfect
in the 28GA FH brass case. It is a hollowbases hourglass
shaped 362 gr slug. No wadcups or wads needed, loaded
right on powder. It is the slug you buy the molds to cast
your own or you can buy them from guys who cast for
sale. I use slow rifle powders in case so no air space,
they fill to the slugs. I got 2900 with moderate case
expansion and it hits target straight on, from a smooth
28ga heavy barrel on 695 Mossberg bolt action.

Other new info on primers. Some of the guns can't have the
firing pins or hammers beefed up easy like my Enfields
With some magnum primers with hard cups you get delayed
ignition if hammer doesn't have perfect hit and high strength.
One test with a small diameter case/bore that any primer will
ignite slow powders fine with good firing pin spring would
show delayed ignition with shotgun battery cup style 209
CCI Mag and 209 Federal Mag primers, and when I tested them
in cases with just the primers, they only put in a small dent
when they fired, but WIN 209, REM 209, RWS 209(used in
Brenekkes, Lightfields, Hastings), dented in much more when
firing just the primer. And with the smaller bore you had fire out
the end of the barrel, so you could compare primer strength
visually. The REM 209 was as good or better than CCI and FED
209 Mag Primers. The WIN and RWS was close behind. We put
the REM in same case/gun where that we had delayed ignition
and it fired instantly, no delay. The two mag primer brands have
the primer insert in cup rounded a lot and little harder metal,
and the other 3 metal cup insert is almost flat and slightly
softer. It is easier to get a better more solid strike and dent.
I always figured mag primers were best in our hopped
up shotgun loads but not anymore. It took a while but I finally got
everything around for proper test. Hopped up loads(regular also)
we have talked about, use REM 209, where the firing pins
and hammers can't be strengthened. Even loads with Longshot,
Blue Dot, Steel, HS6-7, etc.
Hope this helps.....ED

HUBEL458
January 7, 2009, 12:22 PM
More pimer info-- Some guys tell me that large rifle primers
in Magtech and other brands that make brass 12 ga cases
are more powerful than shotgun primers in brass cases.
First of all there is no major mfg selling loaded brass ammo
so their isn't lot of them out there with shotgun primers,
that have to meet industry specs and reliability.
It is mainly reloaders doing it. The large rifle primers are
flat on top once loaded in the case and they are not real
hard metal so they give real good ignition, hence the thinking
they are stronger than shotgun primers. But if shotgun primers
are ignited ok they do have a little more power as can be
seen in my smaller shotgun barrel tests where the flame
comes out the end of the 28ga barrel to see easy, and
you see how far the flame extends. And lab tests show that if
both ignited ok that shotgun primers are stronger.
I've had too many click bangs and the purpose of this
bunch of tests is to get primer reliability for guys reloading
slugs with all the variances in cases, headspace, firing
pin strength, different powders etc. So others don't
get misfires and delayed ignition. ED

TheShootist1894
January 7, 2009, 05:03 PM
Hubel, have you shot any critters with this or should I say these calibers yet? Can you say PENETRATION?

HUBEL458
January 9, 2009, 12:20 AM
I've shot brass slugs & solid bullets through 6 foot bundles
of hardwood slabs. Shot lead bullets through 1/4" steel
plate, makes huge hole. Many guys in the midwest and
south have used the hopped up loads in plastic and
brass 2.75", 3", and 3.5" cases for deer and hogs.
Shot couple pigeons with hopped up 10ga shot load
going about 2000 fps.Ed

HUBEL458
January 11, 2009, 08:22 PM
Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun.
It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows
in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil
barrel ring I added so forearm stays put.
It has internal brake on barrel that I picture
earlier in thread with the porting holes.
Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right
that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups,
and many folks have good accuracy with them, even
in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy
design. These are the ones you cast your own.
And there are guys casting some for sale.
On the left is my prototype of the Lyman
style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a
mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup
used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our
smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this
as the flat ended kiln slug wasn't designed
to give accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8nef.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lyman8.jpg

HUBEL458
January 17, 2009, 01:10 AM
The picture is some aluminum cored jacketed slugs

RG made, weighing 385 gr. Full .730" diameter, hollowpoint,

and one I filled nose with glue gun. Fairly streamlined. 3600 in

the Savage with our long case..Slug is nice and long,

1.22" HP and 1.4" with plastic I put in the nose.

In Nef with RMC 3.5" brass case 2700, 3.5" plastic 2500. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rgal.jpg

2fewdaysafield
January 17, 2009, 01:20 AM
I still can't figure out what I would use it for, but I WANT ONE!!!!!!

HUBEL458
January 22, 2009, 12:15 AM
You can make big holes you can see easy.

RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with
shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And
I just tested some variety of ones myself.
Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with
slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer,
with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.

These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above
thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.

1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs,
with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.

715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.

Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase
powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example,
with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25
as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case.
A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter
powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.

On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if
enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with
a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling
folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot
and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity
out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed

HUBEL458
January 26, 2009, 02:28 AM
Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr
Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use
originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting.
It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores.
Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It
will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns
that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber
for the brass case. Good hunting loads would
be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added
and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask
about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28lyman.jpg

HUBEL458
January 31, 2009, 01:43 AM
Here is a double projectile load that would make a
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC
case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal.

Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A
515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my
10ga, by using thickwall BPI steel no slit wadcup
shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it
is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield
and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman
so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga
no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it
so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bren2.jpg

PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go
to the thehighroad.us forums, join in and support them.
The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from
him and he is in court to get it back. He is in
the right and if you folks show up there it will help.
And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from
the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.

daywalker627
January 31, 2009, 07:04 PM
All I can say is...well..... yea thats all ive got to say. Wow. I am looking all over youtube and I can't find the vid on it. Is there a vid? Is there a link to it?????????????

HUBEL458
February 1, 2009, 12:30 AM
I get it by search term "Grandpa's Cannon"
it worked a while back.ED

HUBEL458
February 4, 2009, 12:14 AM
Here is 12ga prototype cushioned base sabot I put
together to show how heavy of powder seal
and heavy cushion base that is needed. That
eliminates the blowouts and damage that was
happening to sabots unless I put a card
under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion
base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one
and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit
target straight. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsab.jpg

HUBEL458
February 7, 2009, 09:39 PM
Some 8ga experimenting and info. The 8ga chambers
I have are set up to fire the regular 8ga
size cases, and also REM kiln cases with bases
turned smaller, where the extra short basecup
is formed over the inside cup.Just reduce to the
diameter that it chambers ok and regular case
doesn't expand very much fired in same chamber.
This idea came from UK 8ga hunters that found
it was easier to get kiln cases. Now the other
case in 8ga available is the WIN kiln case and
ones I've seen are only single thickness basecup,
but they have the step formed in them to match
the kiln case belt size. Now you can't turn them
down any to fit my chamber, BUT you can swage
them down .012" in a die with a lttle lube on the
basecup. Examining them they do expand much more
than the doubled up REMs.I fired REMs 4-5 times
with bases expanding .002", the WIN I did
expanded .005" in one shot. I will use
heavier built REMs as they are 70cents
primed and good for 4-5 shots, hairy loads.Ed

HUBEL458
February 12, 2009, 01:56 AM
I glued up 3 of 12ga prototype sabots. At 25yds( the 50yd range
is in the water and snow) And the three with 437gr .512"
slugs I did one 2" group with peep sights and bad eyes.
Running about 2400 fps from RMC case in the NEF 12GA FH
Shot 3 of my 28ga FH with Lyman 360gr at 2100, from
the Enfield 28GA FH, and got same size group.Real windy
when testing . Going cold and ready to snow again.
Shot a 600 grain Dixie hardened heatreated slug, in Savage
in our long case at 2900 though two-- 1/4" steel plates with
2" of wood between them. Made big hole.Ed

2fewdaysafield
February 12, 2009, 07:25 AM
We're going to have to find you some elephants to shoot at, Ed.

johnwilliamson062
February 12, 2009, 09:16 AM
I just want to know when you guys start necking down 20MM shells to fire steel core 223 rounds through the sides of tanks.

I think you should try, even if it is not possible.

2fewdaysafield
February 12, 2009, 05:08 PM
johnw....careful now, probably shouldn't be saying things like that out loud, even in jest.

HUBEL458
February 14, 2009, 11:46 AM
A 223/20mm would be a bit overbore. Here is pic of
one necked to 50cal, that Bob Snapp made for a company
testing armour 40 years ago.50 bmg on left for comparison....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20mm.jpg

HUBEL458
February 15, 2009, 10:49 PM
Before it got cold again got little more testing done.
I shot 8ga Lyman 900gr wasp-style slug out of
the Enfield at 2350. I made it from heat treated
lead REM kiln gun slugs, and it went through 6 foot
of hardwood slabs in my backstop. Hit target square,
behind chrono, which is great from smoothbore.
It is hollowbase and seems very stable.And real hard.
I shot 3 shot group, with 12ga 525gr Lyman, in 87
smoothbore long barrel levergun, At 25 yards they
all made hole like cloverleaf. Used 3.5" RMC brass, with
Lyman in a WW12-114 shotcup, going 2100.Now my
87 smooth barrel is .722" at muzzle, .726" at breech,
so it gives tight support to shotcup and Lyman slug,
for fairly accurate load.....Ed

dcobler
February 16, 2009, 12:05 AM
Fantastic project and beautiful work. I'll definetly keep this one for a ref.

HUBEL458
February 20, 2009, 03:11 AM
dcobler--Thankyou and if you or anyone needs any
help in the way of info or research just ask.Those of
us doing this are having fun and glad to help anyway
we can.ED

HUBEL458
February 22, 2009, 12:46 AM
Here is picture of one of RIP's NEFs 12GA FH, with
a Vias brake installed. He had smith ream out a
50cal one to let 12ga slugs pass through...Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1845.jpg

HUBEL458
February 27, 2009, 11:40 PM
The Vias brake bored out in above picture will help
RIP with recoil as he wants to shoot all heavy slugs
in the NEF Ultra. Guys like the Vias brakes.They
can be bored out and fitted to anything.
I just like ported internal brakes and more gun weight.

Here are some results( had 1 nice day) with 8 gauge and
10ga light slug loads of my testing. I call them my real
big bore varmint loads. A 770 gr slug in 8ga fired in
Enfield at 2400 all 3 shots nearly touching at 20 yds.
A 515 gr Lyman, NEF 10ga at 2400, same tight group
at 20yds. Lyman is originally for 12ga, but is fit in
10ga thickwall BPI shotcup cut off and slug glued in so
it is like a impact discarding sabot. Both smoothbores.

Smaller varmint load. NEF rifled 12ga with RG's 385gr
aluminum cored jacketed slug at 2700, 2 overlapping
and one half inch away using RMC 3.5" case. Ed

4INCHSMITH
February 28, 2009, 04:17 PM
W. O. W.:eek:

HUBEL458
March 2, 2009, 12:59 AM
The three slug loads tested above are real
light recoiling, easy to shoot. I call
them my big bore, varmint slugs as they are
light for the bore size. Here is picture of
the 3 slugs for comparison. 1st is 770gr in 8ga wadcup,
second is 515 Lyman in 10ga wadcup, third is the
12ga 385gr HP with aluminum core. The 8ga wadcup
loses its petals going out the barrel, but
hollowbase 770gr slug stays straight.The 515gr Lyman
in the 10ga thickwall wadcup is also as a unit
nose heavy and runs straight. The Lyman is held in
cup with little plastic mender glue, so that it
acts like a Hammerhead and Lightfield slugs.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bbvar.jpg

HUBEL458
March 3, 2009, 11:33 PM
Here is what a 600gr super hardened Dixie slug
at 29-3000 plus does to two mild steel plates with
2" wood between them. Fired from our long case
in the Savage.Plates are soft mild steel.
Anyone interested in the 12ga Encore
with 3.5" chambers, that I tested loads in,
it is on Gunbroker..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bhole.jpg

HUBEL458
March 6, 2009, 10:39 PM
Shot the NEF 8GA FH. That is the heavy barrel NEF
that was a 10ga.. I bored it out to 8ga and chambered
it for the heavy duty 8ga case. 770gr at 2200 out of
29" barrel. End of barrel has internal brake with 21
porting holes and with weighted thumbhole stock,
it handles recoil easy.Will have picture soon.Ed

HUBEL458
March 11, 2009, 11:20 PM
Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole
stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked.
Along with weight and heavy barrel handles recoil
great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage
112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and
heavy barrel,and got rid of monte carlo
outline.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sav12th.jpg

HUBEL458
March 16, 2009, 11:46 PM
Here is picture of RIP's two 12GA FH NEFs.
Both are the 12ga Ultra Slug Guns.
One has Vias brake, other expansion chamber.
He calls it his golf ball launcher. Ed


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1870.jpg

COYOTE JLR
March 16, 2009, 11:55 PM
I've got to admit that I'm extremely impressed by all of this. Showed my buddies at work to the sound of much "ooing" and "awing" Great job man.

HUBEL458
March 17, 2009, 09:10 PM
I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders,
like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun
primers I had to use Blue Dot starter.
But not with these.....They are the industrial
shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use
these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges.
When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test
firing function(cases came with primer), then I put
regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder.
Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one
apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder.
I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer
could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder
using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial
primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel
2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame
just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original
REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular
primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got
info on th powder used and how to get these primers,
let us know. I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic.
Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr
of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with
437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter.
140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition.
Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads
in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed

Brian Pfleuger
March 17, 2009, 09:16 PM
Do you guys know where one could purchase sabots that could be used to load 12ga shells with something in the 30-45 caliber bullet range?

I'm thinking that if a 12ga can fire a 385gr slug at 1900 fps then it ought to be able to do wonders with a 150-250gr bullet.:eek:

HUBEL458
March 18, 2009, 12:00 AM
The only 12ga sabots out there so far that I know of,
are for 50 cal slug/bullets. Like the BPI shown earlier
in thread. Maybe there is a 50cal sabot that holds
30 cal bullets and put that in 12ga sabot.Ed

Brian Pfleuger
March 18, 2009, 09:53 AM
The only 12ga sabots out there so far that I know of,
are for 50 cal slug/bullets. Like the BPI shown earlier
in thread. Maybe there is a 50cal sabot that holds
30 cal bullets and put that in 12ga sabot.Ed

I thought about the double sabot idea but considering that the major manufacturers have enough trouble getting reliable sabot separation when using only one, I can't imagine the trouble with getting TWO cleanly away. I suppose it might be possible to glue the two together.... hmmm....

HUBEL458
March 19, 2009, 09:41 PM
I always felt that if some company would make powders like 7383
available it would be great. 7383 ignites fine with regular
shotgun primers in 12ga, but it is surplus and only a few of
us have it.It is a powder that has a lot of the deterrent inside
the of the material, not all near the outside like 99% of
all other powders whether spherical, tubular, or flake.
This allows easier ignition, but yet the deterrent still can
control the speed. Well the new RE-17 just out for 2 days
is setup like that. The surface of the RE-17 grains is
more porous than RE15, so that fact allows better ignition
even though a slower powder, and along with fact that company
got most deterent inside it still regulates speed.
Today I fired with regular REM and WIN primers in
plastic and RMC cases, a whole bunch of loads of RE-17,
with no hesitation or squibs or misfires. Loads ranged from
437 gr slugs to 750gr slugs today. All loads burnt clean
and I got in RMC case one of RG's 715gr jkt slugs to 2300
with 160 gr of RE-17.....Whoopee....Ed

HUBEL458
March 25, 2009, 10:04 PM
I shot couple loads with regular primer with RE-17
and 1040 gr slug in 12GA FH NEF, and it does great.
Tested loads that were cooled outside a while.Perfect ignition.
I fired loads RE-17 8ga plastic,in my 8GA FH on new NEF long
heavy barrel that was a 10 ga and RE-17 is great. No hesitation,
it fires off as good in 8ga as the 4759. Remember
I couldn't get good ignition in 8g with 4227, but so far
RE-17 is magic. In 8 ga all it would hold under the 8ga REM
wadcup with 770 gr slug is 200 gr of RE-!7, with the
wadcup pressed down, compressed real hard,good crimp,
and it really bellers.2400 plus.Going by case
expansion about 20k pressure. Which don't bother
those one piece compression molded super strong
8ga REM cases. You must have real tight proper
roll crimp in plastic cases and good tight
taper crimp or rolled in crimp in groove
in the brass cases. In RMC brass I size it so slugs
have to be shoved in with press.

And this RE-17 doesn't break up the kernels when powder
gets to a certain point, like the 7383 does, causing burning
rate to speed up more than what it was designed for.
I tested 7383 in my 700HE, and when up to 35-40k it's
pressure went up fast, much more than linear progression.
I still like 7383 at shotgun pressures, but I really like
RE-17.Just pour case full and shoot with lighter slugs.

Ok- for those who want to get into the 12GA FH and get
the long strong 3.85 inch cases Rob on AR got some made,
you can email him to get some- garnickrob@aol.com
He can also tell you where to get reamer.Ed.

HUBEL458
March 30, 2009, 01:48 AM
Here is picture of another fellas work on AR forum,
of NEF 12GA FH, factory thumbhole stock
and a brake he built, with wide slots in top and round
ports on the sides. He is testing heavy slugs.Ed




http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/IM12Even/IMG_0509.jpg

HUBEL458
April 1, 2009, 10:50 PM
Here's picture of solid turned 12ga slugs that Rob makes.
They are flat on one end and hollowpoint on other.
They can be shot either direction. Aluminum ones
are 346gr, brass 1080gr........If you need any
contact him. He, RIP, and others on AR are testing
them with different powders. I have gotten similiar brass
ones to 1900 in NEF with RMC case, with
140 gr the new RL-17. Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1873.jpg

HUBEL458
April 5, 2009, 11:08 PM
Heavy brass slug testing-----
RIP'S components in first picture-
15gr Blue Dot starter, thin plastic separator,
230gr HBMG, thin plastic under slug,
and 1087gr brass slug; in a RMC 3.5"
brass case, fired in his great looking,
braked NEF 12ga FH Ultra, got him
1812 fps average. Barrel and brake
are 27" total length. Great work. Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1883.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1880.jpg

HUBEL458
April 13, 2009, 01:20 AM
One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened.Ed

dcobler
April 13, 2009, 11:25 PM
Have you got pictures of the 8 GA. yet?

HUBEL458
April 15, 2009, 02:45 AM
There is two pics above. One is 8ga in the Enfield
bolt acton. the other is the NEF, and here is NEF
in pic again.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8nef.jpg

HUBEL458
April 16, 2009, 10:36 PM
Rob on AR is building a 12GA FH double on a Zabala Double
10 gauge frame. It has the Greener crossbolt. He cut off
barrels to make a 4" long monoblock double to screw a
pair of heavy 12ga rifled Pacnor barrels into. He reamed out
monoblock section and threaded it. His barrels are
1.116" at the breach, .97" at muzzle and 22" total length.
Barrels threaded into monoblock with a 15/16" x 32 thread.
In the pics it is partly done and he will put in the ribs
and integral sight rib and regulate for accuracy.
It will be about 14.5 lbs when done he says.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0285.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0286.JPG

ddeyo1
April 17, 2009, 12:06 AM
now that is dead sexy

HUBEL458
April 18, 2009, 04:21 PM
Yes that is the best gun of all everyone has
done so far in 12GA FH. I really like its looks.Ed

ddeyo1
April 18, 2009, 06:19 PM
i agree. although everything else looks nice too:p

HUBEL458
April 20, 2009, 03:01 AM
Some more BPI seal and sabot testing.
First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels
and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took
him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with
looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot.
For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr.
I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long
chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs
so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the
BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a
cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got
2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals,
2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the
Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would
roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before
it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp
outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic
crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs.
I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok.
Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the
.512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for,
AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used
Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using
60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up
BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in
place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman
fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more
that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman.

Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with
slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough
to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot
base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed
on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder
and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I
will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with
the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads.
We will know soon.Ed

Ravenshade
April 24, 2009, 04:08 PM
Hi all,

Was just wondering Ed if you or your fellow enthusiasts had ever looked at the CAWS that H&K and Winchester teamed up to produce for the US military in the early 80's? It was a bullpup design semiauto shotgun that fired special high pressure brass shells with a max of 25000 psi. This link is the only one I've found with any specs. http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo06june.htm
Just thought that if you contacted said companies and offered to do a little free R&D work for them (especially with this economic downturn) that they would maybe provide some weapons and shells to play with. Would love to see a bullpup semiauto 12GA from hell. Keep up the good work.

HUBEL458
April 25, 2009, 11:00 PM
Thanks for info We'll check it out.
Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8inef.jpg

Magnum Wheel Man
April 28, 2009, 07:26 AM
with out re-reading all of this thread... have you ever expirimented with 577 Snider cases ???

my buddy ( a local builder & retired tool & die guy ) & I were sitting around chatting one day, & the subject came up about how to best anneal aluminum, at which time he produced a handful ( appearently he has a couple hundred ) fired aluminum cases, which were mortor spotter rounds ??? or some such, which used a shotgun primer, & happened to be about the right size to fit 58 caliber mini balls... he was thinking the heads would seperate if the aluminum cases were not annealed... as the conversation progressed, we turned to brass 28 or 24 ga shot shells, but the non solid head design would really limit the performance of the resulting cartridge... next came the 577 Snider, which is a fairly easy to get case... I have 4 of them coming to look at...

my thoughts were it would be really cool if a guy could use a rifled 58 caliber muzzleloader barrel, & chamber a bolt action 20 gauge or similar for 28 gauge that the Snider case could be formed to fit th chamber, you could call those reformed cases 28ga slugs, & possibly have a bolt action big bore deer hunting "rifle" legal to use in shotgun zone ???

thoughts ???

HUBEL458
April 29, 2009, 09:26 PM
The Snider and other 577 calibers are same as 24 gauge. I made
a 28ga FH with a long 3.25" brass case that I had RMC make
I used a 550 cal rifled barrel that was also made for the 550
Magnum. Our chamber/barrels fires factory 28ga also.
If you'd want a 24ga/58cal with you could also use
577NE brass which is 3" long and built heavy.And get a 58cal
barrel. And you could fire any 24ga regular shells also.
And stamp the barrel 24ga, just as we stamped our barrel 28ga.
And the fact that you could fire regular 24ga it is legal 24ga.
Checked on the CAWS info.
Here is pic of Case for the CAWS weapon system.
Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi.
Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of
the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so
they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in
to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner
near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded
it with big buckshot and test other projectiles also.
They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled
over brass mouth for crimp. Ed

http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo06juna.jpg

HUBEL458
May 2, 2009, 11:19 PM
Here is picture of a NEF breach barrel section that I threaded
monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE.
It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its
OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered
to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long.
I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows..
Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc,
as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too
thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these
that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels
big power fun.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nefmono.jpg

Magnum Wheel Man
May 4, 2009, 10:25 AM
HUBEL... can I pick your brain a bit for my 577 project ???

right now we are leaning towards a double rifle, using a strong 12 ga side by side shotgun & barrel liners in 577 by using 3 equispaced set screws in each shotgun barrel muzzle, the bore end of the liner could be adjusted within the shotgun tube, then the screws could be either trimmed to length, or a pourable epoxy could be added between the barrel & liner, after the barrels were properly regulated, & the screws removed... if the gaps were small enough the muzzle could be soldered as well ???

I have already gotten some 557 cases, & have dies ordered...

one thing my local builder is concerned with is finding a strong enough action ( I figure you are the guy to ask :D ) an exposed hammer would be a nice feature, but my buddy is concerned that the 577 even in black powder loads is almost double the pressure of a 12 ga, so finding a strong enough action would be important... finding one that was cheap enough to use, or commonly available is equally important... any suggestions ???

HUBEL458
May 7, 2009, 10:55 PM
You want to get a Zabala 10 ga just like Rob is using
in the pics above. You get the one with Greener crossbolt.
With 10ga you can make the 577 insert with thicker sidewalls.
It will take any load that the 577 cases can hold.

I fired mono-blocked NEF this week with a 585HE 32"
barrel and the gun is weighted to 15 lbs. Thick pad.
I have cone breech as this case is belted with thick base.
I'll have a pic of gun later. Gun is still tight after testing.
I can take out cases with my fingers as they don't stick.
First 650gr, with no extractor. The HBMG, WC-860,AA8700,
Retumbo, Magpro, RE25, W-780 loads come out of the chamber,
with my fingers.If I tip gun up they fall out.
Top speed with RE25 and W-780 is over 2400. Now I knew what
to load them at because I have tested this case in 3 other guns.
I have all the different powders and bullets tested.
This is example of a case extracting easy,
due to proper side taper that my 585 has....Ed

HUBEL458
May 10, 2009, 10:13 PM
Here is a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double,
that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing
the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun.
He has it chambered for 12GA FH long case.
Really beautiful work and gun.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0362.JPG

HUBEL458
May 16, 2009, 02:42 AM
I found odd steel block with a square cornered
1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big
machining problem for me in doing a 4bore.
And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel.
The rest of machining I can do, and I have
the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts
and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff.
To many problems with all the parts riding on the
breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor.
Will be my own design with hammer and
trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar
to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885
and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline
on the block of the shape it will have.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/stblb.jpg

Come and take it.
May 16, 2009, 01:23 PM
12 guage/ 50 Browning elephant gun?

282 lb feet of momentum.

If that can't knock a person sized object a few feet than I don't know what would.

Taylor KO factor= 211

HUBEL458
May 21, 2009, 11:19 PM
Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with
the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist.
Chambered for my 585HE belted case.
I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga
Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock.
and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra
ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will
show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it.
I am firing first bunchs of test loads without
an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and
750 gr bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They
come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole
stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more,
were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers.
And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail.
Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases).
You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach
setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it
is in my three 585HE bolt guns. And is why I can get cases
out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef585.jpg

HUBEL458
May 25, 2009, 11:21 PM
Here's pic of my to be 4bore falling block with
the block to be the breech setting in the hole.
Breach needs trough on the top yet, but now
it is done for exact width and height and the
bottom recess and link hookup is done, since
the picture was taken..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/stbl.jpg

Come and take it.
May 26, 2009, 09:09 AM
Did anyone see the Cartridges that John Connor used in Terminator Salvation on the Arnold terminator? He was using a prop modified tear gas launcher made elephant cannon. But the cartridges he had for it were straight cased and every bit as big as a .50 browning.

Looked very much like this 12 guage rifle cartridge.

HUBEL458
June 2, 2009, 12:20 AM
The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture,
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8z.jpg

Ravenshade
June 6, 2009, 01:22 AM
What does more money bye you during any given day? In a word, OPTIONS. The person with ten dollars in there pocket is limited to certain options by that amount of money to what they can bye for lunch that day. Equally the person with one hundred dollars in there pocket has many more options available to them for lunch that day. The more options you have equal a better potential quality of life. Seems like common sense to me.

So using this example let us look at the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun. This weapon is considered by many to be one of the most versatile weapons in the world. So why is it that it’s full potential of options is not being used? First let us identify some of the options that this weapon brings to the table. The twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun firing shells loaded with small shot pellets to large buck shot pellets and even larger slugs has been putting meat on the menu for a long time. The many different sizes of projectiles allow the weapon to take small game such as birds all the way up to larger game like bears. The weapon has also been defending hearth and home for just as long and is a favorite weapon of many if not all police and military forces. The only option not covered by the smooth bore twelve gauge shotgun is the niche presently held by the high powered rifle. In particular the rifle projectile’s high velocity, long range, and accuracy. I just believe that with today’s technology the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun should be able to come very close to high powered rifle performance. Even at long ranges.

That being said I would like to draw your attention to Ed Hubel and his fellow enthusiasts at http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197214 these folks have been doing some very interesting experimenting with heavy barrel twelve gauge and other big bore guns, both smooth bore and rifled barrels. Recently Ed and company achieved these results.

“One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened. Ed”

Seems to me we have the velocity and with the correct type of projectile we could have the range and accuracy. Granted the prevailing wisdom states that a twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun can not achieve results like that of a high powered rifle. My thought was that barrowing the idea of fin stabilization from BPI’s AQ slugs, anti tank rounds used the world over, and even the ancient technology of the arrow (Hence ensuring that even the anti gun nut lawyers could see that the precedent has been set.) that someone should take the Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets 50 BMG (510 Diameter) 647 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail projectile drill out the back of said projectile there by reducing its wait to 500 grains (With fins included) and insert fins like the AQ slugs but maybe with the fins more in line with the projectiles boat tail shape and then placing the projectile into an appropriately sized twelve gauge sabot then placing said sabot into a brass shotgun shell of 3.5 to 4.0 inches long that maybe that would be a step towards knocking the high powered rifle off its pedestal. At the very least giving the twelve gauge smooth bore shotgun more range and accuracy and thus adding one more option to this versatile weapon.

I would think that the Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets 50 BMG (510 Diameter) 647 Grain Hollow Point Boat Tail projectile with the above modifications and moving at 3000 fps or faster would do a great job on whitetail deer on up to possibly moose sized game.

After thought – Could the breach end of a sabot be designed to achieve rifle like spin while being thrust down a smooth bore barrel thereby imparting said spin to the projectile?

Disclaimer – I am in no way an engineer or a gunsmith. The ideas expressed herein are just conceptual. Any person or persons that make use of these ideas do so at there own risk. I make no legal claims to these ideas and give full credit to Ed Hubel and all persons involved on “thefiringline” forum.

HUBEL458
June 6, 2009, 09:06 PM
Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is
lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach
block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbc.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbt.jpg

HUBEL458
June 11, 2009, 10:20 PM
Answer for above post-Most dicarding sabots are used in
rifled barrels and they impart spin to the bullets for
stable flight. The boat tail bullets will work also if they fit in
sabot tight.Most locked on saboted slugs wil lwork in rifled and smooth. They work in smooth due to being very front end heavy like old foster
slugs. If they leavr barrel pointed straight they fly straight.

Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling
Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbo.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/naval.jpg

HUBEL458
June 16, 2009, 11:39 PM
Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two
BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in
MN has, in a long heavy rifled barreled Savage
like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet
in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts
ok with the Savage bolt action extractor.
He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't
get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the
extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads.
The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract
like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork,
I get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr
slug in the sabot.The case shown was fired with the
RE17 load like that....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/wcpl.jpg

Seancass
June 22, 2009, 12:21 PM
If I went out and bought a NEF Ultra Slug Hunter Delux, what would be my next steps towards the heavier 12 ga 3 1/2 inch plastic shell loads? This gun would be strictly for giggles and shoulder injuries. Do you have compiled recommended loads? Its hard to search for more information becuase google just brings up 500 versions of this same thread from all the different sites.

HUBEL458
June 24, 2009, 11:18 PM
Ream out chamber for 3.5" case. Add weight to the butt,
get a thick pad.- Using RE-17 powder, 150 gr with Lyman slug
525gr in wadcup, 145gr with 540 gr Hammerhead slug, 140gr
with 600gr Dixie slug,155 gr with BPI sabot w/420 slug.
Any space is taken up by wads. I like RE-17 best now.

Here is picture of NEF I've set up with my
700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility
of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked
like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on
the same SB2 frame that I have my 12GA FH on as
it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers
use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case.

Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel
to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge
I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned
earlier in the thread.

Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W
NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a
chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip
in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment
with and along with reasonable costs, we don't
have to worry about case length. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef700h.jpg

HUBEL458
June 27, 2009, 11:03 PM
Here is picture of a falling block a guy on Weaponsforum
has picked up to finish. The fellow who started building
it laid it aside for awhile and the new guy is going to finish
in BMG. It has 50cal bbl on it. Looks easily big enough
for 12ga,10ga,8ga, my 700s. The lever on left is cocking
mechanism, The tube in back is a firing striker and spring
and it hits the hammer block you see in the back of the
breach block, which hits firing pin ahead of it in breach.
It is the the only one like it. They've put a lot of work
into it, especially the hammer block striker setup.Ed

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/ultramagbrion/MY%20WEAPONS/50customandScarborough022.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/ultramagbrion/MY%20WEAPONS/50customandScarborough016.jpg

HUBEL458
July 5, 2009, 11:22 AM
In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle
Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired
test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one
test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and
1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired
outside the factory.It is in first picture.
PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And
if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH,
here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case
partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with
action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield.
And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor
In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting
and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so
it would handle same pressures as Savage 210.
And 3.5" with average length 12ga slug would feed from the
magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened
and some mag work. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph700gun.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph12ga.jpg

HUBEL458
July 18, 2009, 10:22 PM
Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and
my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga
box mag and its follower and spring
inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box,
and permanently mounted to metal and floorplate.
Holds 2 down. That way feed lips already a working
design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case
like I did with my 700 in Savage 210. Also work
for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't
loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Using most
cast 12ga bullets like Dixies, the overall length with
3.5 brass is 3.9" and fits 4.05" box ok. Here is picture
PH from bottom showing its big size.You can see in pic
there still is room to make box longer yet.
And the feed port can be longer.Montana Rifle has
great action here with lots off room and strength.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbot.jpg

HUBEL458
July 30, 2009, 02:09 AM
I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs.
Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel.
Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it.
It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan
50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone
knows where there are any. 4 bore cases shown,
and I'll use a big ammomaster press for them..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbbl.jpg

HUBEL458
August 4, 2009, 11:42 PM
Here is a picture of the front end of the 4bore,
showing a 2000gr slug protuding out. Simulating
stop action photo work, as if anyone wwould be brave
enough to put a camera out in front of it
when it fired. Will have it firing by fall.
I plan on using hollowbase lead slugs of
about 1600gr, as it is a smoothbore. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbul.jpg

HUBEL458
August 13, 2009, 11:22 PM
I got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17.
Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they
come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had
on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter. Original barrel on the GEHA
was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug
onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun.

Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle
these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic
3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under
the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got
over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie
got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel,
so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion. It works great in 3" and really gets the
speed in 3.5" cases, as in 3.5" cases,as seal/wads about same,
extra length for powder. The 870gr load is max peak pressure of
16,000 psi. Muzzle pressure is about 3500-4000 psi.
I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED

HUBEL458
August 19, 2009, 01:09 AM
Here is picture of my 695 Mossberg bolt action.
It is 28ga FH, a 3.25" long brass case. Was a
12ga with light barrel. I also have a heavy 12ga
barrel chambered for 3.5" cases and a .500" barrel
for my 499HE a real long brass case. Also I am
doing my 499HE in a NEF. You can get a NEF with
MMouse 500S&W and run my reamer in and get real
power.The 395,495,595 actions will work also,
as they like the 695 have double bolt lugs
and a loading port that can be lengthened.
And they have a nice style...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss28d.jpg

HUBEL458
August 26, 2009, 12:18 AM
We get asked about finned slugs for
12ga smooth bores and if they take high
speed. Well they'll do just as good at high
speed as the locked on wad stablized Brenekkee
OK slug I tested in my smoothbore 1887 with long
barrel, in first pic. Second pic is a Corbin
finned slug I will get and test later. Third is
BPI AQ slug I will test, few weeks in the 87.
I'm going to test also in a regular smooth bore
12ga slug barrel of medium muzzle size.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87L.jpg

http://www.corbins.com/images/finslugs.gif

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/images/slug_aq.JPG

HUBEL458
September 2, 2009, 12:43 AM
Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I
setup with an Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage
plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3"
chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load
combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so
this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases.
Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter.
The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in
Germany in the 20s, to 12ga by reaming outl the front lug seats
and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear
bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok.
The cases come out with the weight of the bolt.
That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun
barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super
mag turkey and goose loads expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mauserd.jpg

HUBEL458
September 5, 2009, 10:31 PM
Testing some .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast
slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic
case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga
NEF about 2100 fps. Greg Sappington makes
these. They are hollow point. 3" group at
50yds, peep sight, bad eyes. I also fired
a couple to see if they'd work in my long
brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture.
They work ok, so Greg has a double duty
slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also.
The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel
isn't heavy, on Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gregsl.jpg

HUBEL458
September 13, 2009, 10:37 PM
Comparing brass cases.I tell everybody who are stepping
up in power from 3.5 plastic, you can get 3.5" brass cases
from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. Here you can see how heavy
and nice they are compared to regular brass cases.
They also make shorter 3" brass cases also.
They fit the chamber tight and are long enough to
get some serious thumping power.And they have a
super strong, thick , solid head, not a weak balloon head
like regular ones on the left in pic.Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_2093.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_2090.jpg

pvt.Long
September 14, 2009, 12:00 AM
ooooo can I play?????

HUBEL458
September 15, 2009, 01:39 AM
Get a NEf Ultra slug gun to play with.. Have smith lengthen chamber
for 3.5" cases. and use our strong loads in 3.5" plastic cases.
Then get 3.5" brass RMC cases and get more power.And your on
your way to recoil land.Ed

HUBEL458
September 19, 2009, 10:01 PM
Tested my 499HE in a NEF. Loads I didn't have to
full length resize the case, only top 1/4 of case.
325gr at 2600, 500gr at 2150.
In NEF got both weight bullets 300 fps faster,
still extracted very easy.I got reamer. Just run it
in NEF 500 chamber and you got a blaster. And add
a little weight and thick pad to the gun.I have
a barrel ring to hold forearm along with original
bolt, as I added weight there as well as the butt.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499nef.jpg

HUBEL458
September 25, 2009, 12:03 AM
Finally an 870 with longer 1" muzzle barrel. Barrel
is heavier than most all add on pump gun barrels,
and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get
it on with the slower powder loads we have.
Rifled barrel is solid mount in receiver, scoperail solid mount.

It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun.
Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for
handling recoil better. Plastic case 3" slug loads of ours that
gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this
Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture
that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the
vise readt to be crimped...Ed

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/870_super_slug_780.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/drill.jpg

TRX
September 29, 2009, 10:43 PM
Ed, I've been following your progress for a while now. I even got a couple of 12gaFH dummy rounds from you earlier this year.

After reading this thread over from the beginning, I have a few questions:

1) where is "the AR forum" that the FH originated on?

2) are you still selling the threaded rim rings for people to use on their own BMG brass?

3) you mentioned you used a Pac-Nor barrel on your first FH.
They list a 28", 1.5" dia. 12ga rifled barrel (no twist given) for $305, plus $11/inch for extra length. Is this what you used, or was it all custom?

4) have you used barrels from anyone else?

5) have you (or others) come up with a good idea of what twist works with any particular bullet, or is there not enough data yet?


"I got a fever! And the only prescription... is more cowbell!"

HUBEL458
October 3, 2009, 01:00 AM
I have no threaded rings- but Rob on AR is making them
as well as complete cases. Pm him there.
AR is acuratereloading.com, and you go to the BIG BORE
section of the forums.
That is the barrel we use and we use a 1 to 20-22 twiist,
other barrels used are smooth ones and the rifled ones on
the NEF as they come from the factory.
1 to 22 twist stabilizes anything we use even super heavy
slugs. You can start with a NEF Ultra slig and ream chamber
for longer plastic and brass cases to get in recoil business.

Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on
the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never
touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in
smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do
great also.Could be made heavier and different points.
Flat point shown would do great damage to game.
On the net- ammunitiontogo.com
This one is about 500 gr.

Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W,
shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting
much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/images/Monolit%2032.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499he.jpg

HUBEL458
October 8, 2009, 12:26 AM
Some more testing with RE17 powder. I used it in 2.75",
3", 3.5" 12ga plastic, 3.5 and 3.85" brass. I like it the
best of all, as well as the real slow powders in our
long case with BMG primer.
Following tested in Savage-max pressure 35k psi.
I took couple of our first made 3.85" BMG based
long cases and bushed them back to use shotgun primers
to fire off the RE17. Works great, with 715gr jacketed slug
and 220 gr RE17 getting 2700 . With 420 gr slug in
BPI sabot with 250 gr RE17 getting 3200 plus.
Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi.
Using 3.5" MRC brass, 715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500.
420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got 2900 fps.
And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the
basecup expansion of factory mag loads.So that solves
problem-IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and
shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to
get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic
and higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder
for plastic and brass loads.
I see now that Lightfield Co has the Commander 3.5" Plus
slug loads with 600gr at 1900, probably in a test barrel.
But that is great- nice, as it seems we're being copied!!!ED

HUBEL458
October 13, 2009, 05:24 PM
So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own.
Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe
and they are working to get distributors/stores here.
Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need
many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot
petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked
on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give
decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels
also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr
weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only.
It is called the US-S slug, and their site is
europeancartridgeunlimited.com ..Ed

http://www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com/images/P7190013_s.jpg

HUBEL458
October 21, 2009, 03:13 AM
The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds.
I had helped him test another slug a while back.
He sent me some each of the US-S 570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr.
I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887
smoothbore 35" barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at
1900 fps. I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS
seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal
is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing.
Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each at 50 yds with
peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized
in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled.
My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle.
These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to
ask their dealers to work to import these for them
to have what seems a good slug to reload...

On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up
to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter
If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the 4.1" long
10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed

trhoads83
October 24, 2009, 08:44 PM
Have you ever seen or performed a conversion on a Remington 700 action ? I have wanted to do a 12 gauge 3 1/2 conversion for a while. Although with Hastings coming out with the 3 1/2" 20 gauge, that might be the chambering I would want to use. I am primarily interested in long range accuracy. Winchester currently has the 20 gauge 3" Partition Gold slugs rated in the 2000 fps range. I believe this slug is 260 grains. I would like to get a plastic hull 3 1/2 " to push a similiar weight bullet in the 3000 fps range and still be safe. Do you think that the remington 700 would work for this, and which caliber would be a good starting point ? Also, would you go with a the 20 gauge or the 12 gauge? Keep in mind that I am not looking for the heavy weight bullets that you are using. I have a 700 MLS in .50 caliber that I have been eyeing for this project. I appreciate any advice.

Thanks

HUBEL458
October 24, 2009, 11:53 PM
You can get light slugs that fast in a BPI Sabot, 3.5" plastic case, with our slow powder loads. And others loads.

I get 420 gr in BPI sabot up to 2700. Rem 700 doesn't have large enough diameter for 12ga case. You can use a Savage 210 12ga bolt action. or a NEF Ultra 12ga slug gun, with bull barrel. Or if pumpguns you like ythe new heavy barreled 870 slug gun.

Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup with other 12ga slugs I'm testing.

Lefteris was kind enough to send me a few of each weight to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right. They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in 3.5" plastic so far.

At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both. With peep sights and bad eyes. So the US-S slug is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled.

My smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle, a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle, and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle, 1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug gun with slugs like these, and others like the Brenekkes, I have spare one. It is 30", chrome moly alloy, super strong, nice an shiny inside and out. Plenty of metal for any contour.
Good for bolt guns like Savage,Mossberg. ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslug.jpg

HUBEL458
October 27, 2009, 11:22 PM
I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action.

It is singlestack with feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I had here. Works great, shown in first picture.

Now it is longer than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding long brass 12GA FH and long MRC 12ga cases. The 700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. In picture case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim pops up under extracter as bolt is moving forward.

Second picture is the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together. Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700phfeed.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700box.jpg

HUBEL458
November 4, 2009, 11:06 PM
The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000 in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5" 3 shot group at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with for smoothbores.

Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting on a rim like the 12GA FH is built. Just a prototype, third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some, as it is much easier way. First in picture is 16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long, 3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafh.jpg

2fewdaysafield
November 4, 2009, 11:36 PM
Alright Ed.....I've been following this thread for a long time and my guts are twitching!

All this stuff you are doing is MILES beyond my capabilities.

But I have been wanting a S X S double rifle since Johnson was President!

If I handed you a S X S shotgun, could you make it into a rifle? A BIG bore rifle.

Not a tack driver....2/3 MOA....An old style African big game rifle.

HUBEL458
November 8, 2009, 10:45 PM
To do a heavy barrel 12GA FH on a double you use
heavy 19ga double and mono-block in heavy 12ga barrels
I don't have the machines to do a double, but Rob
on the big bore section of Accuratereloading forum
is doing one.Check with him. Gunsmith Colin Stolzer
might be able to do it.

I now have a variety of 12GA FH test guns including
two Savage 210s in the lineup...SO passing on the first
12GA FH that I did on the Savage 210 bolt action.
Its in original Savage stock now, 28" Pacnor rifled barrel.
Stock is weighted and double thick recoil pad.
It is chambered for the original 3.85" long 12GA FH
case.It will fire shorter cases also.
750 plus shipping, included 4 of our long cases and
30 slugs.That is the first 12GA FH built on a Savage
and the second 12GA FH ever built. Pickup here for MI
guys ok also. Savage 210s are now 550 bucks, the heavy
rifled barrel cost me 350 bucks..Ed

javven
November 8, 2009, 10:56 PM
How is this not a DD?