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Doug.38PR
January 25, 2006, 04:50 PM
Has anyone else ever pulled up to a courthouse or other no-gun building and had to wait a long time before you could go in because someone was sitting in the car next to you eating or talking on the phone, or some people were on the sidewalk in front of your car chatting, or people just happen to keep walking within eyesight of the driver or passenger side of your car so you couldn't reach under your coat and unclip your holster and put it in the console or glove compartment?

I have, many times. But the longest I've ever had to wait is like 30 minutes :mad: :rolleyes: :D :p . I couldn't believe it, last week I pulled up to the courthouse but there was a woman talking on her phone in the car next to me so I couldn't reach in and pull my holster out. After about 10 minutes she pulled out and right next to her was a car with a man sitting in his car looking through his notes. Then he got out and went in, but I think there was a car on the other side of me with a person in it. They finally left or went in or whatever. Then some old man or somebody would pull in where one of the two cars that pulled out was. Then a crowd of mexican people exited the courthouse and came across the street close to my car on the sidewalk and stood there chatting for about 5-10 minutes before breaking up to go to each other's car. Then off and on there would be one person or another walking by my car. I couldn't believe this! Every time I would seem to have an opportunity I would reach back and begin trying to unhook my clip holster but before I would work it loose someone would be walking towards my car or getting into their own car next to me. In another time and place it would make a good comic moment on TV.
Odds are people are probably to preoccupied with what they are doing or where they are walking to to notice...but why take a chance? I prefer to be cautious. I treat my CCW as Clark Kent does his Superman identity.

spacemanspiff
January 25, 2006, 05:06 PM
trust me. no one will notice. unless you hold the gun up high over your head when you unholster and announce on a megaphone: "this is my gun! there are many like it but this one is MINE!"

nlrpd115
January 25, 2006, 05:10 PM
I agree with spaceman. Don't worry about it. Even before I was in LE I didn't care if someone saw me remove my pistol or not. If they do see, wink and blow them a kiss, lol.

payne
January 25, 2006, 05:17 PM
I never think about it because from outside it just lookslike I'm pick my ****s tail outta my pants or somethin. You cant see what i'm doing when takin off my gun in the car fro the specified reasons

TexasSIGMan
January 25, 2006, 05:19 PM
Non gun people just don't see a gun, even if it's right there.

Their brain tells them "that can't possibly be a gun, you have made a mistake".

If it's only a glimpse, they will shrug it off and move along.

I've had many occasion where I just KNEW everyone could see, and I didn't even get a second look.

Wildalaska
January 25, 2006, 05:21 PM
You ought to see me doin the duck down and fat roll trying to get one off..Thats why I carry my Defender on my head

Hell i cant even cut my toenails...

WildbulgingAlaska

MoW
January 25, 2006, 05:59 PM
Try it using a Smartcarry:eek:

sjstill
January 25, 2006, 07:25 PM
I try to avoid such places, but when I have to, I take my gun off enroute (at stoplights, etc), so it is already hidden when I arrive.

I feel that even though I do a scan of the lot when I get there, there still might be someone who sees me remove my pistol and mark my car for a later smash & grab.

My 0.02

281 Quad Cam
January 25, 2006, 07:35 PM
Just take it off..... People don't care. I often do this... Just take it off, stick it in the glovebox or what have you. I cannot fathom sitting in your car an extra 30 or even 5 minutes.

snolden
January 25, 2006, 08:02 PM
I open carry here in Arizona a lot. very few people notice that, let alone what I am doing in my car.

Personally I only take my gun off if I have to go thru a metal detector. (courthouse)

gdeal
January 25, 2006, 08:11 PM
Can U go behind your car and pop the trunk? The trunk lid opened up makes a real good sight barrier.

Hardtarget
January 25, 2006, 10:36 PM
I think its best to be discrete. My wife has spotted two carry pieces at different times in store parking lots. I was in the floor with my grandson,(he is two...I'm 55), still had my coat on.He grabs my coat and feels something ...looks at me and says...gun?. Had to say yes. Then he's off to the toy box for a ball. They don't care at work anymore, but they know it's there. I keep mine concealed and with me.
Mark.

ATW525
January 25, 2006, 11:17 PM
Try it using a Smartcarry

Smartcarry is the easiest. Just hold an adult magazine in one hand while removing your gun with the other. People will naturally look away and never guess what you're really doing.

281 Quad Cam
January 25, 2006, 11:33 PM
Smartcarry is the easiest. Just hold an adult magazine in one hand while removing your gun with the other. People will naturally look away and never guess what you're really doing.

BWaHAhaHAH! :cool: :D

Capt Charlie
January 26, 2006, 04:46 PM
Just take it off..... People don't care.

I donno 'bout that. Sometimes, they do some really goofy things ;) .

http://filecabi.net/video/fake-gun-prank.html :D

nscale
January 26, 2006, 07:00 PM
I dont even have a permit to carry and I carry mine in a holster on my hip every where I go. I try to keep my jacket on and keep it covered but it is often exposed. I know they see it and I act like it is normal. I dont even think people care.

Maybe they think because I am so bold with it exposed, I must be a cop or something. I am careful if there is a LEO around not to let them see it after all I do not have a permit, and in Texas you are suppossed to keep it concealed when you have a permit.

I wonder what they would do if they catch me?:confused:

BigFunWMU
January 26, 2006, 08:11 PM
Nscale

I forsee jail time in your future......


Please go get a permit so you don't become an antigun statistic.

Doug.38PR
January 26, 2006, 08:32 PM
Nscale,
while I respect your right to self defense, self righteous District Attorney's, Judges, and police (if for no other reason simply because it is their duty regardless of how dangerous you in fact are) would love to persecute you and as BIGFUNWMU said make you an anti gun statistic.

If caught you will be arrested. It is extremely likely that you will go to jail. I second the strong suggestion that you get a license immediately. Not all people out there will assume you are a policeman (and even those that do could have a case made that you were impersonating a policeman :eek: ). Two weeks ago a gun store dealer that I know from church was telling me about a co worker of his who got spotted with a gun under his coat by an old lady in the grocery store. He bent over to pick something up and she actually bend over behind him to follow him down to look under his coat to see if she had actually seen a gun (busybody old hag :rolleyes: ). She immediately ran off and told a manager. The manager, cooler head prevailing, simply approached the man and said, "I assume you have a Concealed Carry License." If he had not had that license, that man would have had a very bad evening.

GET A LICENSE SIR! FOR YOUR OWN SAKE!

nscale
January 26, 2006, 09:34 PM
BigFun and Doug,
I appreciate the information. I will have to take precautions and keep the weapon out of site. Actually I have considered the pager pal holster, allowing total concealment.
I am not oppossed to obtaining a permit and have even pursued it, however, Texas law makers decided to attach a requirement (pork) to the permit law that I have not yet complied with.

No felonys or criminal record prevents me from my permit, instead it is a very old student loan debt that has not been resolved.
Unfortunatly until I can satisfy this old debt, I do not qualify for my permit.

While I do not deny responsibility for the debt, I find it rediculus that this made it into the law. So until I can pay my debt - No permit.

When I discovered this pork, I had to make a decision as to whether I would continue to carry. It is obvious how I decided.

My concern has been the consequences resulting in having to use the gun. God forbid. If in fact that time comes I must rely on the old saying:
Better to be judged by 12,
Than to be carried by 6

Your point is well recieved. It is not my desire to be the poster boy for the anti-gun activist.

Doug.38PR
January 26, 2006, 10:12 PM
I understand. Then I wish you well and pray you get your debt resolved as soon as possible. If having to use the gun, a fair and impartial (as opposed to indoctrinated jury) jury would understand too and nullify that law and let you go home in peace.

Peeweester40
January 26, 2006, 10:44 PM
"I am not oppossed to obtaining a permit and have even pursued it, however, Texas law makers decided to attach a requirement (pork) to the permit law that I have not yet complied with."


Did it ever occur to you that the lawmakers intended to make sure that people who obtained a carry permit were upstanding in all facets?

I was in a serious accident 18 years ago in which a good friend of mine was killed. The pickup I was in collided head on with a semi-truck. The driver of the semi had a suspended drivers license at the time of the accident and he was passing on a double yellow line. His defense was that his license was suspended ONLY because he had a parking violation. If he had followed the law that night, my friend would be alive today. Like it or not, laws are made for reasons, whether you agree with them or not.

You are giving law abiding concealed carry license holders a bad name. If you're going to break the law, at least don't brag about it in a public place.

Doug.38PR
January 26, 2006, 11:49 PM
The driver of the semi had a suspended drivers license at the time of the accident and he was passing on a double yellow line

seems to me the semi driver passing on a double yellow line is the reason why your friend was killed, not because the semi driver was without a license.

Dangerous people of criminal element are going to carry guns whether there is a law forbidding them to do so or not. Drivers who are foolish and irresponsible will drive deadly whether they have a license or not. Teenagers do it all the time before they are 16 for instance.

Nscale isn't looking for trouble, from what I can tell (and I don't know him personally) based on what he has told us, he is interested only in defending himself not in looking for trouble.

Peeweester40
January 27, 2006, 02:25 AM
seems to me the semi driver passing on a double yellow line is the reason why your friend was killed, not because the semi driver was without a license.

Sure, the physical impact killed him, but again, if the driver had followed the law and not have been driving because his license was suspended, the accident wouldn't have occured.

If you don't have a license to carry concealed, and your state law requires you have one to be within the law, you are breaking the law. As I said, I don't think this is a positive reflection on law abiding gun owners. Just because someone doesn't think it's a good reason isn't an excuse for the law.

tegemu
January 27, 2006, 04:24 AM
I think if I were that concerned about people in the vicinity of my car, I would just drive to a less conpicuous location for the removal and return.

Doug.38PR
January 27, 2006, 09:40 AM
I think if I were that concerned about people in the vicinity of my car, I would just drive to a less conpicuous location for the removal and return.

Then you lose your good parking place :( :) And besides, if there is a trial or something going on that day, you are lucky at all to be able to get any parking place at a courthouse.

nscale
January 27, 2006, 10:21 AM
You are giving law abiding concealed carry license holders a bad name. If you're going to break the law, at least don't brag about it in a public place.

peeweester40,
You are absolutly correct, I have made a choice to break the law. I dont see how my choice to do so reflects on law abiding concealed carry license holders , but I will go along with your statement above.
I am sorry for the loss of your friend and I totally agree the person was breaking the law driving, regardless of why he lost his license.

I will say this, and it is not my objective to incite you or anyone else. I carry this weapon because I have seen and been expossed to crimes that may have had different outcomes if a good guy was armed.
For me, my decision to carry is based on a moral decision to prevent myself, my family or any innocent from being harmed.

Yes I will use my weapon to protect my life, yours or your childs, whether I can carry legally or not.

Personnaly, I am prepared to spend a life in prison if my actions save the life of one child. So come to my trial and feel free to tell the jury "The guy with bad credit may not legally carry a gun"

This was my point with my States Law. But as you pointed out. It is still the Law.

tegemu
January 27, 2006, 06:39 PM
Doug.38PR, your point is well taken and agreed with. However the original post spoke of waiting 30 minutes one time and then another time,waiting 10 minutes for a lady and when she left there was a man shuffling papers on the other side of where she had been. When he "went in or whatever" there was someone on the other side of the poster's car. after that the coast was apparently clear. I feel certain that I could have pulled away a short distance, removed my gun, re-parked and then have been inside the Courthouse before all of this time had elapsed.

snolden
January 27, 2006, 10:21 PM
I really am not a troll. Despite my low post count, I feel the need to interject here. There is a constitution here in the US. That includes the 2nd amendment which states the "people". This guy that you are putting down is a "people". Just because the government decided to limit the "people" unconstitutionally doesn't mean that we are deprived of the right to bear arms. This is a god given, inherent right of all of us.

It is smarter to have a permit (I do now, but not until I carried for many years without one) in case you have to defend yourself in court. It was not a good idea for nscale to tell us as now he has exposed himself but it is not the place of any of you to deprive nscale of the right to bear arms. If I were to live in Washington D.C., Chicago, LA, New York City and other soviet republics I would still retain the right to bear arms. It is a right, not a privilege to be granted by the government.

Please remember that and that you should not pass judgement on your fellow man.

nscale
January 28, 2006, 01:02 AM
TexasSIGMan said it
"Non gun people just don't see a gun, even if it's right there. Their brain tells them "that can't possibly be a gun, you have made a mistake".
If it's only a glimpse, they will shrug it off and move along. I've had many occasion where I just KNEW everyone could see, and I didn't even get a second look."

My original response to the topic of this thread was really to make the point that where I live people really don't take notice when they see a weapon as TexasSIGMan stated above. Maybe this is only typical in Texas?

In regard to my permit status, I had no idea the mention of it would incite such strong oppinions. I do however, appreciate the fact that we are all at liberty to state our oppinions. "NO WHERE BUT AMERICA".

I am glad there are folks like snolden who make a decision to carry a weapon, not based on his state laws requirements, but based on his conviction to protect himself, his family and other innocents from those that may do them harm. I applaud snolden for his willingness to comply with his state laws and I am happy he qualified for a permit. But, as he stated it is his right to carry either way.

I also appreciate the support from Doug.38pr and would hope that if ever I find myself being tried by a jury of my peers for using my weapon, a person like Doug would give me the benefit of the doubt.

But most of all I have to say, the strong oppinion of Peeweester40 has humbled me. While the reason I carry, is in my oppinion, right and justified, I should not consider myself above the laws of my state. Lets face it, we all carry our weapons to protect ourselves from people who have decided to break the laws of our land.

So where does this leave me?
I will be more discrete, but I will stay armed.

BigFunWMU
January 28, 2006, 01:19 AM
Nscale

Discretion is crucial to carrying concealed, permit or no. Your first post in this thread stating how your gun is often exposed, does raise some concern.

My concern is not in based on the fact that you do carry, it is the method that you go about it. The whole point of a concealed firearm is that nobody can see it. Even without a permit, a gun that nobody sees will cause much less trouble than one that is visible. I'm glad you are planning to take steps conceal better.

I wish you the best of luck in getting a permit in the future,

czc3513
January 28, 2006, 02:01 AM
Authority is artificial.
It is NOT a higher power.
You CAN resist opposition.
Life is anarchy.

I believe that we have the natural right to defend ourselves in any way that we see fit.

I do not have a packing permit.
I have said that I have packed but I have not said that I have packed outside of my home.

I find it hard to believe that all of you with a permit had not packed before you got the permit.
So you went through all of the trouble of getting a permit before you even knew what it was like to carry?

This thread will probably be closed/locked because posts are off topic and involve illegal activities. So into history/oblivion we go!

czc3513
January 28, 2006, 02:03 AM
O...
And I take my gun off in the car all the time.
:D

BigFunWMU
January 28, 2006, 02:58 AM
So the topic sticks, since it is a good one....

I leave mine on in my truck, unless I'm going into a gun free zone (police station, courthouse, college campus buildings).

Then I ususally pull the gun, holster and all, while still in the truck, and lock it in the center console. I also make extra sure my doors are locked. I actually got the kind of holster I did in order to make it easier to remove the gun while in the holster and put it somewhere for safe keeping.

And I did carry around my own house before I got my permit, but I didn't take that show on the road.

Doug.38PR
January 29, 2006, 04:43 PM
I find it hard to believe that all of you with a permit had not packed before you got the permit.


I'll admit once or twice I loaded my .38 up driving across town back home late at night a few times before I got my permit. Who wouldn't? I loaded up once driving from Carthage to Houston late one night about midnight (but actually I found out later that was perfectly legal as I was traveling between at least 3 counties)

It is a right, not a privilege to be granted by the government

Amen!

Wildalaska
January 29, 2006, 05:15 PM
Personnaly, I am prepared to spend a life in prison if my actions save the life of one child. So come to my trial and feel free to tell the jury "The guy with bad credit may not legally carry a gun"

Oh give me a break, if you were such a firm believer in your right to keep and bear arms and how the carrying of firearms prevents crime you wouldnt be doing it surreptitiously...be proud..you're prepared to spend the rest of your life in prison on an "if come"? Show em whose boss, call the press, conceal your gun, tell the press and police , take it to court!!! Change the law, save potentially hundreds of lives!

WildnawitseasiertochestpoundonthenetAlaska

teejhot.40cal
January 29, 2006, 05:20 PM
This may sound odd but just pretend like you are supposed to have it (which you are) if people see you trying to hide it they would probably report you. If you just put it in your glove box like you would when no one is looking, people might think you are a cop or in the military unless they know u personally. People know an average person wouldn't do that so u would have to be a cop or sumone that is suppose to have it. I know it sounds crazy but it is true.

nscale
January 29, 2006, 05:49 PM
wildalaska :confused:
Will you finance this activity?:D

woodland
January 29, 2006, 06:24 PM
In the court house here, they have the metal detectors, and they tag and keep anything not allowed until you come out. I just leave the gun locked in the rig, and leave my holster on. I have a Suburban, so not many can see in from their cars, and pulling from the holster and locking in the center console is not even noticable anyway. I always pull the mag and take it with me. I put it in the tray with keys, cel phone, etc. before going through the detector. They just ask "do you have a weapon?" and I say "It's in my truck. I just don't like to leave a loaded weapon unattended ." They say "OK" and seal it in an envelope with my name on it, and that's it. No big deal.

Wildalaska
January 29, 2006, 06:32 PM
Will you finance this activity?

Money comes before principles?

WildnosympathyAlaska

Doug.38PR
January 29, 2006, 06:45 PM
In the court house here, they have the metal detectors, and they tag and keep anything not allowed until you come out. I just leave the gun locked in the rig, and leave my holster on. I have a Suburban, so not many can see in from their cars, and pulling from the holster and locking in the center console is not even noticable anyway. I always pull the mag and take it with me. I put it in the tray with keys, cel phone, etc. before going through the detector. They just ask "do you have a weapon?" and I say "It's in my truck. I just don't like to leave a loaded weapon unattended ." They say "OK" and seal it in an envelope with my name on it, and that's it. No big deal.

Most of the courthouses I go into don't have metal detectors and all that garbage, so if it is a shoulder holster, I just take it and my speedloaders in while removing the gun and locking it in the car.
However, if it does have metal detectors then the only problem I have with doing what you do is that it causes attention to you and anyone around knows there is a free gun to be had in your car if they can break in and get to it.

Peeweester40
January 29, 2006, 08:00 PM
I find it hard to believe that all of you with a permit had not packed before you got the permit.

Well believe it. If I didn't intend to comply with the law, I wouldn't have bothered to get a permit. I did however carry in my vehicle prior, with my pistol "securely encased" as the law states, which is legal in Florida.

So you went through all of the trouble of getting a permit before you even knew what it was like to carry?

Precisely. I wouldn't however, consider it "trouble" to go through the process of getting a permit. It was done all in one afternoon at a gun show. I found it quite informative and to the point. The worst part was having my mug shot taken.

nscale
January 29, 2006, 09:55 PM
Money comes before principles?

By asking I assume your answer to this question would be "No". So that must be a yes to my original question. Principles before Your money?

swmike
January 29, 2006, 10:38 PM
Not only do I remove my weapon when parked, I have even been known to change my pants in my car.:rolleyes:

I was scheduled to testify as an expert wittness in Federal Court one year. I went to the courthouse about 20 minutes before I was scheduled. Off came the belt and holster (which was then locked in the console) and then the jeans.:eek: On with the slacks and belt, all with people wandering around the parking lot. Nobody really cares.:cool:

Went in, testified, came out, changed and re-armed again. No issue. BTW, I didn't park right by the elevator, I did go to the end of a row.

riverrat66
January 30, 2006, 12:01 AM
I find it hard to believe that all of you with a permit had not packed before you got the permit.

Actually it's illegal to purchase a handgun in New York State without a pistol permit so there would be no way to carry before receiving one's permit. Also an illegal handgun calls for a mandatory one year prison term.

I just remove my firearm when I park and use a magazine or hat, if need be, to cover it as I put it in the glove box or console. Yep, and I've also changed my pants in the truck.

czc3513
January 30, 2006, 04:16 AM
Precisely. I wouldn't however, consider it "trouble" to go through the process of getting a permit. It was done all in one afternoon at a gun show. I found it quite informative and to the point. The worst part was having my mug shot taken.
I didnt know that it was that easy to get a permit.
It seems like I have read about it taking over a month.
Maybe I was thinking about a full auto or silencer permit.
Do you agree with the 21 min age requirement?

invention_45
January 30, 2006, 09:10 AM
Hello, y'all. My first post. I had to register just to tell you all this one.

About 3 years ago I had to go to the Broward County Courthouse. At the time I had a Beretta 8045 (that I REALLY REALLY liked) and, of course, a CCL.

My practice, at the time, when going to places I knew disallowed CC was to unload the gun and lock it in the glove box. I figured better to come back and find a BG departing with it unloaded than loaded. So, of course, I'd put the clip in my back pocket and go about my business.

I was getting a RO, and the procedure is so that you go twice during the day (unless you want to wait there two hours, and it's not that entertaining of a place). First trip, I went in the main entrance downstairs. Empty all the metal stuff from my pockets, including the clip. Some official or another sees the clip in the little plastic bin on the x-ray belt and grabs it. He says I can't take it into the courthouse, but he'll bag it for me and I can pick it up at this little stand where two deputies watch the lobby.

I get my business done and go to that stand, and, sure enough, I get my clip back.

That afternoon, I go to pick up the TRO. Instead of going downstairs (the parking garage was fuller, so I was upstairs instead of ground floor), I took the 2nd floor flyover to get to the courthouse. There I found another entrance inspection station.

I know the drill, so I empty my pockets. Suddenly, lots of eyebrows go up and a deputy approaches me, takes the clip, and asks "what is this?". I ask him if he can hold it for me while I'm inside and says he most certainly cannot. I explain that that had been done earlier. As we're talking, more deputies show up and are chattering about the situation. One leaves.

After a minute it is explained that I'll have to take it back to my car. So I'm putting all my stuff back in my pockets and as I'm about to start walking back to the garage, the deputy who left returns.

He stops me and says he knows why I was allowed to have my clip stored earlier. The guys downstairs simply assumed I was in law enforcement.

Most of the guys present found it good for a laugh. But I did have to leave the clip in the car.

Another time I went to a nightclub. I followed the same practice, separate the gun/clip with the latter in my rear pocket. At the door they were patting everyone down, for drugs, I guess. The lady doing the patting touches the clip and asks "what's this?" I answer "it's my clip". She didn't even ask to see it. Maybe she thought I meant money clip. I was allowed in with it.

Mikeyboy
January 30, 2006, 02:33 PM
As long as it's not a bunch of teens or someone who looks like they will break into your vehicle while your gone, I don't care. Your being paranoid, if you do it in one easy motion, they probably would have no idea what your doing.

riverrat66
January 30, 2006, 03:26 PM
Peeweester40 sez:
Precisely. I wouldn't however, consider it "trouble" to go through the process of getting a permit. It was done all in one afternoon at a gun show. I found it quite informative and to the point. The worst part was having my mug shot taken.
czc3513 sez:
I didn't know that it was that easy to get a permit.
It seems like I have read about it taking over a month.
Maybe I was thinking about a full auto or silencer permit.
Do you agree with the 21 min age requirement?

I don't mean to get off topic but you guys are fortunate. I've carried for 30 years and it took me 7 months to get my CCW permit and then only after hours of safety classes, references, interviews, fingerprints, pictures, background checks, both local and federal and approximately $200. Also if I want to purchase a handgun I must show my permit at time of purchase and then I have 10 days to report to the pistol permit office where they record the Make, Model & Serial Number in their files also recording it on the back of my permit. In other words, they have a list of every handgun that I own, complete with serial numbers. They even charge a fee to "register" that handgun! My permit is "good until revoked" or until they see fit to take it and all my handguns with it. After all they have a complete list of each and every one of them. You talk about someones rights being trampled! In New York State they consider it a privilege not a right to own a firearm.:mad:

Doug.38PR
January 30, 2006, 03:38 PM
Hello Invention_45,
Welcome to The Firingline. Wow, quite a story about your clip. I didn't know it was illegal to carry around ammunition in Florida. In Texas there is no law against it (unless you are in an airport where it is considered an "explosive"), but I just leave my speedloaders or clip in the car just to avoid attention when metal detectors and all that junk are involved.

Peeweester40
January 30, 2006, 08:04 PM
I didnt know that it was that easy to get a permit.
It seems like I have read about it taking over a month.
Maybe I was thinking about a full auto or silencer permit.
Do you agree with the 21 min age requirement?

I had fullfilled all of my requirements in one afternoon. After having my picture taken and leaving the CCW class, I had to go to the police station to get fingerprinted. I think Florida has to issue (with correct and clean applications) within 90 days of receipt of CCW issue info. I recieved mine in about 40 days. I absoluetly agree with the 21 minimum age requirement. I just wish it were required for marriage too. :rolleyes:

joneb
January 31, 2006, 01:20 AM
wow, I see someone is headed to the school of hard knocks. Now I understand why the bar needs to be higher. :eek:

Wildalaska
January 31, 2006, 02:02 AM
Principles before Your money?

Now isnt that Democratic party...

Your principals...my money :)

WildgoaheaddoitillonctribtoyourdefensefundAlaska

czc3513
January 31, 2006, 06:52 AM
wow, I see someone is headed to the school of hard knocks. Now I understand why the bar needs to be higher.
:confused: I dont. ???

invention_45
January 31, 2006, 07:32 AM
Legality of carrying ammunition is something I haven't really researched, so I don't know. I don't remember running across any statutes covering it, though, and I've read them to death since our self-defense (SYG) laws changed recently.

I think that it's just because it was the courthouse. They can do pretty much whatever they want there, and I guess their attitude is that you can file an appeal if you don't like it. I'm guessing the occupants (judges, SA, etc.) make the rules.

To give you an idea, on the boilerplate part of a RO, either temporary or permanent, is the commandment that the respondent (meaning the stalking creep, but that's another issue) is prohibited by law to not be in possession of any firearm OR ammunition while the order is in effect.

The law, by the way, only specifies this to be the case after the PERMANENT RO has been issued, but since there's no hearing before the TRO is issued, it's sort of hard to argue against it.

Back to taking the gun off in the car. I'm just getting used to carrying again after a 2 year break (long stalking-related story that I'll spare yall on this thread). I have a really nice hard leather in-pants holster I bought specifically for my Cougar .45 when I had it. I snipped a few threads and it works OK for the HK-USP.

On the one hand, it's a heck of a lot easier to grab it from the glove box in an emergency than to wrestle it out of the holster when all settled in. But, on the other hand, playing the game of removing it from the glove box and cramming it past the seat belt (even when undone the belt has a protruding part from the seat that is in the way) and into the somewhat-squished-shut holster is kind of awkward in a busy Publix parking lot.

The result is that I've had that same experience...waiting for the rare moment when nobody's waiting to park behind me, loading their groceries, getting out of their car or something else to transfer the gun without being seen.

I suspect part of the problem is the USP is on the big side for a CC weapon. But I intentionally picked it that way. I think with time I'll get it all worked out, and I hit what I'm aiming at with it a lot better than with any of the compact .45s that I tried.

Raytracer
February 5, 2006, 08:18 PM
Nscale,

I understand your position, but take this into consideration: getting caught carrying now could make it impossible for you to get a permit when you do get your debt straightened out. It might even keep you from even legally owning a gun in the future.

Why not get a Florida permit? PDO is down again so I can't check, but I don't remember there being any stipulations on outstanding debts.

joe

RsqVet
February 9, 2006, 04:56 AM
Wow ---

People sure do worry about strange things!!! Some people wih their CCW must be so scared with flashing it or so forth that they must walk around as obvious as day to anyone with the slightest bit of training or experance that something is up. I frequently remove mine sitting in my truck and no one notices or cares --- heck people are so oblivius you could probibly sit there and clean it fro all anyone care --- I was once flased by two women sitting in a parking lot --- I got a call for a phone interview with a reporter just as I was pulling into the grocery store so I'm just sitting there on the phone when this car pulls in across from me and the one must have had a mole or something she wanted the others opinion on --- it was pretty funny becuse they looked up and were obviously mortiifed by the situation.

I rarely clear mine as I have very secure storage in the truck +/- a German Sheppard waiting for my return and I worry that were one to witness the act of loading / unloading that that might be interpreted as agressive or getting ready for something by the sheep out there.

riverrat66
February 9, 2006, 12:08 PM
RsqVet sez:
People sure do worry about strange things!!! Some people with their CCW must be so scared with flashing it.

That is not the case at all. In New York State concealed means just that, out of sight totally and completely out of sight at all times! That means you cannot flash your handgun or give someone a "peek" to scare them or to show them you are a "tough" guy. If someone sees you handling your firearm it's their prerogative to call the police and report you as "someone with a gun" and in todays climate that's very possible. That's why when I'm carrying I don't want anyone to know.

BTW, If I'm not mistaken, not only is it illegal to take a firearm into the court house or any other government building but it is also illegal to take a firearm onto government property including their parking lot!

Doug.38PR
February 9, 2006, 03:45 PM
BTW, If I'm not mistaken, not only is it illegal to take a firearm into the court house or any other government building but it is also illegal to take a firearm onto government property including their parking lot!

To my understanding, in Texas anyway, the prohibition of carrying on government (state or Federal) property (schools, courthouses, city halls, capitols) does not apply to parking lots, driveways and sidewalks.

riverrat66
February 9, 2006, 04:00 PM
Doug.38PR,

Different states different laws but however, as far as Federal law goes, when I go to the VA hospital, I've been reminded to not even have a weapon in my truck, no weapons on federal property, period! Maybe that's just a misinterpretation of the law but that's what I was told by the security officer at the VAMC and that's all it takes to have my permit revoked, permanently!

RsqVet
February 9, 2006, 05:09 PM
RiverRat --

I am not suggesting sloppy concelment, however if one walks around scared to death of a break in concellment that is as obvious to many having the gun exposed --- you may have seen this --- people tuggging at shirts, looking down, patting the weapon, adjustments, etc. and etc. True it's the public sheep's perogitive to summon LE if they see a weapon and want to freak however a relaxed opps and a wink will likely avoid that in all but the most rabit anti's while if I see someone obviously nervus with a weapon I go on alert and start lookng real close at their actions --- conceled or not as we are an open carry state.

riverrat66
February 9, 2006, 05:16 PM
RsqVet

+ 1

bruchi
February 10, 2006, 12:03 AM
NSCALE do yourself a favor, leave the gun home,or on the glove compartmetn of your car if allowed with no CCW in your state and get a can of maze to carry instead.

invention_45
February 10, 2006, 08:58 AM
My apologies, this is REALLY long, but I think it definitively answers the question about carrying in a post office or courthouse or other federal facility.



§ 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal facilities


Release date: 2005-08-03

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
(e)
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm in a Federal court facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to conduct which is described in paragraph (1) or (2) of subsection (d).
(f) Nothing in this section limits the power of a court of the United States to punish for contempt or to promulgate rules or orders regulating, restricting, or prohibiting the possession of weapons within any building housing such court or any of its proceedings, or upon any grounds appurtenant to such building.
(g) As used in this section:
(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
(2) The term “dangerous weapon” means a weapon, device, instrument, material, or substance, animate or inanimate, that is used for, or is readily capable of, causing death or serious bodily injury, except that such term does not include a pocket knife with a blade of less than 21/2 inches in length.
(3) The term “Federal court facility” means the courtroom, judges’ chambers, witness rooms, jury deliberation rooms, attorney conference rooms, prisoner holding cells, offices of the court clerks, the United States attorney, and the United States marshal, probation and parole offices, and adjoining corridors of any court of the United States.
(h) Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility, and notice of subsection (e) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal court facility, and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a) or (e) with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a) or (e), as the case may be.




Looks to me like, unless other law makes it unlawful (like state law), it's OK to carry in a federal facility, provided you are doing it lawfully according to the state and local laws.

Furthermore, if there's no sign, you can't be federally convicted (at least not federally) even if you are statewise-unlawfully carrying in same facility. If it's against state law you might be able to be convicted by the state.

My post office does not have any such sign at the entrance to the area where the PO boxes are. I haven't checked the parking lot yet, but I will, and If I see no sign, I'm clean, federally, to go pick my mail armed. I haven't yet checked in the part of the office where the clerks reside.

I don't think Florida specifically prohibits carry in federal facilities. The state defers to federal law by saying "..or anywhere prohibited by federal law" or something like that. I will check and report in my next post on this thread.

My apologies for the length, but that's the whole law. And I don't know how it's going to format on the board, so it might be hard to read what paragraph is what.

invention_45
February 10, 2006, 09:54 AM
ok, and for those in Florida....


"
(12) No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any career center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083."



So there it is.

Looks like "any courthouse or courtroom" would include federal ones. But no mention of any other federal property, except to defer to federal law.

So, at least in Florida, my read is you can carry concealed onto any federal property that isn't a courtHOUSE or courtROOM (as opposed to courtPARKING LOT), including the post office. Note the absence of any mention of any banks.

I can't find any firearms related state laws here related to banks, so looks like it's OK to carry there, too.

When I renewed my license, I was sent, along with it, an warning (along with a printed copy of all the firearms laws) that it was illegal to carry in a state park. I can't find that law online.

Oddly, I DO find online that it's illegal to carry any firearm of any kind in any National Forest except during hunting season or except properly encased on a state road. There is an exception by "permit", but it doesn't say that that permit is the same as your CCWL.

But aside from that one oddity, it seems clear to me that, particularly if there are no signs present, ANY parking lot is fine, including a federal parking lot, and ANY place not described above is fine so long as it's not a courtroom or courthouse.

My question is (just for curiosity, since I rarely take this route), since I think the Everglades is a national forest (somebody correct me if I"m wrong), and since the road from the east to west coast that cuts across it used to be SR84 but is now I-75, what kind of troubles am I going to have if I use that road while armed? If I get time I might call the FHP and ask them if it's still SR84 for these purposes.




Now, given all the stuff I presented in this and my last post, if I get to one of these can-carry places and I get a hard time from an official there (which I should never do if I'm concealing properly), I am NOT GOING TO ARGUE THE POINT. The smart thing to do is apologize, introduce myself, thus getting their name, then leave. After which I'll find out just exactly who's in charge and ask THEM what's what. If that differs from my experience, I'll ask them to inform their staff of the correct thinking.

You would be surprised how well this works. Communication within organizations is like the game of telephone. The guy you talk to in the lobby is hearing the rules repeated to him for maybe the 4th or 6th time. They're likely to have evolved. If you are stonewalled by him, then start at the top.

The man in charge (or, more correctly, his secretary) will almost always hear out your complaint. They'll refer it back to the same people you were stonewalled by earlier, but this time it's from the boss. You'll get called back and you will get results. Oh, and be polite and businesslike when you call. Sounding rabid and sarcastic gets you zilch.

I've done this several times, and it WORKS. Walgreen's. Jefferson-Ward. Comcast (their customer service is the WORST stonewall you'll ever face). Broward County Sheriff (They weren't stonewalling. They just can't know every single little law and I was getting bad advice. A call to Florida's Attorney General cleared everything up).

Failing that, I'll go elsewhere if possible. If not, I'll just not carry there.

Duxman
February 10, 2006, 10:35 AM
Re-focusing on the topic at hand here:

The answer is No. I do not wait for people around me to go away before I reach over and put my weapon on my person from the vehicle's glove box.

The only reason it is in the glove box in the first place - is usually because I am going to work or someplace where weapons are restricted in my state: Schools, Courthouses, workplace (if they specifically mention it in employee handbook).

And since I have a CC permit, and Open Carry is legal in VA, I have no problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me - I smile at them.

I have so far done this quite often - at least once a week - there were SUV's next to me with a good vantage point on my car, people walking around and behind the car as I moved from box to hip, and one time there were 2 police cars 2 parking spaces away as I moved my weapon.

No issues whatsoever. Maybe I am subtle - but unless people look carefully at what you are doing in your car (Most folks do not care) - the sheepies will never know.:cool:

springmom
February 10, 2006, 11:01 AM
In general, people do not "see" a gun even when someone is printing. If you reach into your waistband and pull out your gun in its holster, and put it in its lockbox or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to pay the slightest bit of attention.

The question stems from the "neon sign effect"...that irrational belief that once you are carrying concealed, EVERYBODY is more aware of YOU and is watching you. It just isn't so. We are trained in this society (especially in cities) NOT to be too observant of others. Those of us who carry for self defense are hopefully always in "condition yellow", but face it, others around us are just not.

This is just not an issue to worry about.

Springmom

Doug.38PR
February 10, 2006, 11:35 AM
In general, people do not "see" a gun even when someone is printing. If you reach into your waistband and pull out your gun in its holster, and put it in its lockbox or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to pay the slightest bit of attention.

The question stems from the "neon sign effect"...that irrational belief that once you are carrying concealed, EVERYBODY is more aware of YOU and is watching you. It just isn't so. We are trained in this society (especially in cities) NOT to be too observant of others. Those of us who carry for self defense are hopefully always in "condition yellow", but face it, others around us are just not.

This is just not an issue to worry about.

Springmom


I know what you mean. We have something to hide and are hence more alert, others do not.

riverrat66
February 10, 2006, 06:37 PM
Well now that we're re-focused on the topic at hand let me quote Duxman
The only reason it is in the glove box in the first place - is usually because I am going to work or someplace where weapons are restricted in my state: Schools, Courthouses
Oops, we're back on that topic again! :cool: ;)
And since I have a CC permit, and Open Carry is legal in VA, I have no problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me - I smile at them.
I have a CCW permit and open carry is NOT legal in NY, I do have problems moving my weapon from one location to another. If someone sees me- there is a very good chance that I will have a half dozen cops pointing their guns at me in a matter of minutes! :eek:
In general, people do not "see" a gun even when someone is printing. If you reach into your waistband and pull out your gun in its holster, and put it in its lockbox or whatever, nobody but nobody is going to pay the slightest bit of attention. This is just not an issue to worry about.
Springmom

Maybe not in your neck of the woods but it sure as hell is in mine! You guys and gals just don't get it. New York State is not a gun friendly state! In NYC where it is almost impossible to get a CCW permit and is very difficult to obtain a permit to simply possess a handgun in your home or place of business. If one is fortunate enough to get a PREMISE LICENSE and wants to go to the firing range they need to ask permission up to one month in advance and maybe they'll be allowed to take their handgun to the range on a specific date and only on that date.
PREMISE LICENSE: IS A RESTRICTED TYPE OF LICENSE. It is issued for your RESIDENCE or BUSINESS. The Licensee may possess a handgun ONLY on the premises of the address indicated on the front of the license. Requests to remove the firearm for the purpose of practicing at an authorized New York State Range must be made in writing one month PRIOR to the desired date and must be AUTHORIZED, IN WRITING, BY THE COMMANDING OFFICER, LICENSE DIVISION.
Can you imagine? Having to ask permission one month before you want to go to the range? Thank God I don't live in NYC. But read this link and you'll get an idea of how the law works in this state.
http://www.handguncontrolinc.org/nyc_permits.htm

LICCW
February 10, 2006, 10:28 PM
nscale: I think you'd better be careful. Watch out for some LEO seeing your carrying and checking to see if you've got a permit. In my sate carry permits are few and far between (I have one..yipee!) so not too many people are authorized to carry, and I know guys who just have "sportsmen" permits which are house, range, and hunting pistol permits. What the guys do is join a private 24 hour range. State law states you may carry your gun on you concealed and loaded to the range or to a hunting destination. If they get caught they show their sportsmen permit and their range key and membership card. Now granted you can't be 100 miles headed in the opposite direction of the range, but it covers guys for a wider range of having the gun on them without a carry. Now I'm not saying I condone this, but I do agree its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so I thought it might help.

LICCW
February 10, 2006, 10:28 PM
nscale: I think you'd better be careful. Watch out for some LEO seeing your carrying and checking to see if you've got a permit. In my sate carry permits are few and far between (I have one..yipee!) so not too many people are authorized to carry, and I know guys who just have "sportsmen" permits which are house, range, and hunting pistol permits. What the guys do is join a private 24 hour range. State law states you may carry your gun on you concealed and loaded to the range or to a hunting destination. If they get caught they show their sportsmen permit and their range key and membership card. Now granted you can't be 100 miles headed in the opposite direction of the range, but it covers guys for a wider range of having the gun on them without a carry. Now I'm not saying I condone this, but I do agree its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6, so I thought it might help.

springmom
February 11, 2006, 01:00 PM
In order for you to be denied a permit, you must be in default on your student loans. That implies that you quit paying on them altogether. If you want to legalize your status, you can work with your lender and get some sort of consolidation, refinancing, repayment plan, or even debt forgiveness if you are disabled. You do not have to pay off the whole thing before you can get your CHL.

Do yourself a favor and deal with this. Your CHL is not the only thing that wil be impacted by this; the state of Texas is hooking student loans and "deadbeat parent" issues to a number of things. I would expect, although I am guessing, that one of these days driver's licenses will also be linked to these issues.

You can do it. They will work with you, and once you are no longer "in default" you can get legal. Go for it!!!! :D

Springmom

riverrat66
February 12, 2006, 02:34 PM
Your CHL is not the only thing that will be impacted by this; the state of Texas is hooking student loans and "deadbeat parent" issues to a number of things. I would expect, although I am guessing, that one of these days driver's licenses will also be linked to these issues.
They are already doing it in New York! An acquaintance had his tax return withheld because he was "default on his student loans". Others have been known to be arrested as "deadbeat dads" when they went to renew their drivers license.

As far as I'm concerned, they owe the money they should pay it. I pay my bills so should they. My daughter has been paying off a $60,000 student loan (6 years of college) for many years now and is very close to being done.

Tonyny
February 13, 2006, 08:35 PM
"So, at least in Florida, my read is you can carry concealed onto any federal property that isn't a courtHOUSE or courtROOM (as opposed to courtPARKING LOT), including the post office. Note the absence of any mention of any banks."

I thought so to and used to carry in them untill I asked a local cop who said its a no-no to carry in the post office. So I now leave the gun in the car for the few minutes I'm in there. Let someone else be the TEST case.:cool: