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Ronny
January 25, 2006, 02:38 AM
It's been several months since this happened and haven't heard anything back from the police department, so I think I can finally tell others about it.

Fall of last year, Tampa FL:
After the evening Worship service I drove to my friend's apartment who had invited me over for dinner. She lived with her boyfriend in a two-story town house near the projects. After parking just in front of their building I noticed that the blinds in the second-story window of the adjacent apartment were shaking violently. They would shake then abruptly stop, then shake again. I ignored it, put on my coat, closed my car door and started walking to the door.

Suddenly, the blinds were torn down completely and the window shunted open throwing the screen out on the pavement below. Out comes a screaming woman in torn clothing leaping from the second story window and falling into the hedges. She recovered quickly and began running towards me screaming for help.

My hand goes to my phone and as I'm dialing 911 a large, shirtless man bursts through the door of the woman's apartment. He sees her, looks at me, and runs toward us.

Quickly, I scramble back to my car while the woman takes off down the parking lot. He chases her, pins her to the hood of a truck and starts punching her repeated in the face.

I'm talking to the operator over the phone at this point telling them my location and the situation while I run over to my friend's door and bang on it. My friend opens the door, sees what's happening, and runs inside to get her boyfriend. He comes to me, knife in hand and says, "Let's get this f**ker."

I hand my phone to his girlfriend, push them both back inside the apartment and yell to the man that we are calling the police.

"We are calling the police -- stop what you are doing!"

The woman is bleeding profusely all over her face. The man stops beating her long enough to make eye contact with me. He's easily my superior in stature -- about 300lbs, over 6 feet in height. He gives her one more punch that sends her sprawling over the hood and on the ground and starts walking towards me.

"Don't bring the police into this!" he yells at me.

My friend's boyfriend is egging him on at this point with is knife -- so I push him back into the apartment. His girlfriend is hiding behind the refrigerator. Once we were all inside, I drew my weapon.

The man came right up to the door, stopped when he saw me aiming for his head and started badmouthing again.

"What, you gonna shoot me muthafu*ka?! Do it!"

I said firmly, "Don't come any closer or I WILL shoot you."

There was an awkward lull -- neither of us making a move or saying anything. Then he thinks better of it. He curses at us some more, runs to his car and peels out. My friend, her boyfriend and I take the woman he was beating into the apartment, put a blanket over her and wait for the police.

When they finally arrived some 8 minutes later (I timed it), I told them everything, wrote a statement, showed them my weapon and my permit. It turns out the woman was being sexually assaulted when she finally overcame her attacker long enough to leap out of a window. Who would have thought something like this would have been happening right next door to where we were going to have dinner. And if she didn't overcome him, we'd have only found out in the evening news the next day.

It's been more than 6 months since this has happened, and I've had a lot of time to think about it. Never heard from the police about it ever again. I don't have a blog of my own, and I don't have people shooting at me all the time like Sir William.

All I know is I am a civilian; a lawful citizen of the United States. And no law abiding citizen should have to wait 8 minutes for help to arrive. Nothing against the local PD, but I thank the Lord every day that I have a means to protect myself and my family always.

Oh, and the woman -- I never got her name. She didn't even thank me she was in so much shock. But I'm sure wherever she's goes, I'm sure she thinks about "that guy in the dark grey suit with a cellphone and a gun" once in a while.

I've tried to stick with just telling it how it happened, with few interjections on my thought process. I'm writing this in hopes that by sharing this experience, others may learn from it. Specifically, that this sort of thing could happen to anyone at any time. I'm not looking for a "grade" because you don't get "A's" for this sort of thing. Just know that it happened. In life, all that matters is what happens. Not what could have been.

And now, back to that caliber war thread I was reading...

stratus
January 25, 2006, 02:50 AM
Give me a few hours to absorb that and I'll think of something to post...

...man...

Yeah, I'm the keyboard equivalent of tongue-tied.

That's crazy.

You kept your head about you, that much is clear. Good job.

Sir William
January 25, 2006, 03:53 AM
Your firearm, your life and your decision. This is exactly the situation that an armed citizen should become involved in.

stealthmode
January 25, 2006, 04:18 AM
scary thought

i wonder if the bag guy has your name and address from the police report? if he was arrested or questioned he can easily get access to the police report and come after you.

DavidJBlythe
January 25, 2006, 08:01 AM
i wonder if the bag guy has your name and address from the police report? if he was arrested or questioned he can easily get access to the police report and come after you.
He already knows whats waiting for him if he tries.

The British Soldier
January 25, 2006, 08:12 AM
"Shoot Him" - didn't you hear me screaming that from here in the UK!

sterno
January 25, 2006, 08:57 AM
I hope if I'm ever in a situation like that I can perform as well as you did.

Mikeyboy
January 25, 2006, 09:30 AM
Well I guess you realized like I did with my situation. You have a 6 ft 300lb guy who can commit assaults with no weapons, just brute strength, if you were not there with your handgun and your freind tried to take on this guy with just a kitchen knife, unless your friend is bigger and had some training, this guy would have killed both of your friends too. I never want to get stuck defending myself or my loved ones with something less than a gun.

nscale
January 25, 2006, 10:13 AM
Ronnie,
That is an amazing story and I agree with the other posters, I would probably not have been as calm and would have shot the guy. If ever I found myself in a life or death situation, I would hope the citizen standing with me was you.

But I have to say, while I know in the heat of the moment 8 minutes for the LEO's to show seems like a long time, it would take much longer where I live.

20cows
January 25, 2006, 10:21 AM
I am not saying you did anything wrong. Nor am I saying what I think I would do is more correct.

I would have had a hard time not "ending the threat" as he beat her on the hood of the truck. He appears to be causing "serious bodily harm" at that point. I don't think I could let that continue if I had the means to stop it.

EBF
January 25, 2006, 10:36 AM
As others have said, I think you showed great restraint and kept a level head throughout the ordeal.

One thought that crossed my mind was the victim was one tough lady. To have survived the assault inside and then the beating outside, plus you said this was a big guy......she was obviously pretty damn tough.

I'm in Tampa.......what area/appt complex was this?

Ronny
January 25, 2006, 12:43 PM
Thank you all for your kind words, but my appearance of "calm" is actually the result of many hesitations.

In retrospect, I didn't draw my gun on him not because of self-control but because I really didn't want to shoot him. I wanted the police to get there and so I went for my phone. If he had come after me instead of the woman when he emerged shirtless from the apartment, he'd have gotten me. And then I'd have been on the ground groping for my gun while my face was being punched in. I hesitated, and should have drawn on him the moment I saw him emerge from the apartment: weak hand on the phone, strong hand pointing my gun.

As for my friend's knife wielding boyfriend. He had the knife, but didn't seem to have the nerve to actually run up to the BG and eviscerate him. So he just stood there taunting and waving the knife around. I pushed him into the apartment not because I was afraid of him getting hurt, but because he was between me and the door. I wasn't thinking, he was just in the way of me and a safe place.

In all honesty, I forgot I even had my gun until we had all retreated into the apartment and I knew for sure that the BG was coming for us. Then, fear for my own life and theirs set in and I felt that bulk on my side, realized what it was, and grabbed it. All this from start to finish happened inside of a minute, and my mind was whirling.

What does this all mean? I need more training, I was just lucky, the Lord took mercy on me, and I wasn't prepared for this at all.

I'm in Tampa.......what area/appt complex was this?
I don't think it would be wise to answer this in full. It was one of the decrepit ones on the poor side of Bruce B. Downs road.

FirearmFan
January 25, 2006, 01:56 PM
Good Job. You made out of their without you or your friends getting hurt. If I was in that same position I'm not sure how I would have acted. Your talk of getting more training definetly reminds me to find a course to take in the next two months.

I like how you went immediately for the phone. It shows you have a clear head on your shoulders instead of running in like John Wayne to the womans rescue. Just wish the response time was faster for police in rough neighborhoods.

Stay safe and good luck.

XavierBreath
January 25, 2006, 02:11 PM
I'm not one to judge another man who has been through this kind of encounter. You did good. You survived, he survived, she survived. You really could not ask for more, and the end justifies the means.

If you want an in depth critique, I do not think I can give you one that is better than the one that has been buzzing in your head since this incident.

Good job Ronny.

One thing.......that friend with the knife..........he ain't no friend. He's a Class A idiot that you need to ditch. You could put him between two slices of bread and call him a trouble sandwich.

NavyLT
January 25, 2006, 02:15 PM
What about the consequences of allowing the perpetrator to escape? The criminal, especially in this case, will not hesitate to victimize another person.

Florida statute 776.013 section (3): "A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Personally, I would have drawn my weapon, sighted in on the perpetrator, approached close enough to ensure accuracy so as not to harm any other person, and shot to kill him without any verbal warning to the perpetrator. Not only would you be ending the victimization of this person, but also the future victimization of others.

tyme
January 25, 2006, 02:26 PM
As for my friend's knife wielding boyfriend. He had the knife, but didn't seem to have the nerve to actually run up to the BG and eviscerate him.
As well he shouldn't.

There's nothing wrong with what you did. Having a cwl doesn't make you guardian of the weak and downtrodden, and if you weren't prepared to shoot an attacker to stop a third party from being seriously hurt, you were right not to do so.

My friend's boyfriend is egging him on at this point with is knife -- so I push him back into the apartment. His girlfriend is hiding behind the refrigerator.
That is to me the best part of the story, no matter why you did it. Whether through subconscious action or by fate, you did the right thing, and you've evidently learned from it.

Ditto on the boyfriend being an idiot. Maybe he learned from the experience, but I don't think people like that learn from their emotion-driven mistakes very often.

Pointer
January 25, 2006, 02:41 PM
"Shoot Him" - didn't you hear me screaming that from here in the UK!


+1

Has it occurred to anyone that the woman took one hell of a beating...
and might have died from it...

While you and your "gun" cowered in the doorway??
You didn't bring the gun into play until YOU were threatened! :mad:

At which point, you were "willing" enough to shoot the swine.

I (and my gun) could not have "watched" that scene take place, and let it continue one damned second longer, without at least trying to stop that 300 pounds s**t-bag.

What the hell were you thinking? :(

There's nothing wrong with what you did. Having a cwl doesn't make you guardian of the weak and downtrodden, and if you weren't prepared to shoot an attacker to stop a third party from being seriously hurt, you were right not to do so.


If you aren't "willing" to defend "the weak and downtrodden" it makes you very, very, low in my estimation.

And there is, most certainly, something wrong with it.

NDTerminator
January 25, 2006, 02:51 PM
Sounds to me like you did just fine. I don't see what more you could have done. You stopped the assault and made yourself available as witness afterward.

If you are really curious, I would go ask the agency which responded what happened. It's not unusual for a case of this type to not come to trial for a year or more AFTER the bad guy is coralled. Could be he's been nabbed and plead out, too...

Don't think I would judge the response time of your LEO's too harshly. Remember first they have to get there before they can deal with the situation. I can't even tell you how many times I'm personally aware of, where officers crashed running lights & siren to a call. This is not good on several levels. I work in a town of 8,000, and it takes me 2 minutes (I've timed it) to get from one end to the other, and that's if everything goes my way.

BTW, NEVER underestimate edged weapons! To be honest, I don't always carry my Glock off duty, but I NEVER leave the house without my Gerber Gator, honed shaving sharp, at my side.

After all my years on the street, I've learned to be more afraid of a bad guy with a knife than I am of one armed with a handgun. Most veteran LEOs I know share this view. A bad guy has to have some semblance of skill to effectively employ the bellygun, with the knife, all he has to do is get close. If you manage to survive an edged weapon attack, you will most likely be maimed for life...

Ronny
January 25, 2006, 03:00 PM
I (and my gun) could not have "watched" that scene take place, and let it continue one damned second longer, without at least trying to stop that 300 pounds s**t-bag.

What the hell were you thinking?

You're right, I should've shot him. But I didn't want to shoot him because:

1). He was on top of the woman and both of them were thrashing around. No room for a missed shot.
2). There was a guy waving a knife around yelling next to me.
3). He never forcibly entered my friend's apartment.

Part of me says that I should've killed him that night, but I'm glad I didn't. I don't think the law would've justified me in that action. I'm not a cop; I can't make that split second decision of taking a life and having the department back me up legally. The man didn't have a weapon, and my party was not assaulted physically. By the time I had a clear shot, he had ceased attacking the woman and, furthermore, fled the scene. No... I don't think the law would be on my side if I killed that man that night.

It's puzzling, our legal system today. In the early years of our great country, evil men died for lesser things.

NavyLT
January 25, 2006, 03:32 PM
Nobody can say sitting behind their computers that you did anything wrong, especially not having been in the same situation, or actually anything close to it.

I do not currently have a CCW permit. But when I do I am going to ensure a few things about myself:

1. I will look up the state laws myself and understand them fully to the best of my ability. All the Florida law says is that you have reasonable expectation that a perpetrator is going to kill anyone, cause serious bodily harm to anyone, or forcibly commit a felony and you can shoot them.
2. I will try to put the welfare of others over my own welfare. Do I feel the responsibility to defend all law abiding citizens whether or not I know them? Yes I do, otherwise I wouldn't remain a member of the military after 21 years now. My home was invaded by a perp who kicked in our dead-bolt locked front door while my wife was at home alone. Our three dogs chased him out, thank God. We both have our handguns now and will shoot the next person who enters our home forcibly for the equal reasons of protecting ourselves, our family and any other future victims whom the criminal may attack.
3. I would practice enough (and I do, currently twice a week) to know the limitations of my shooting ability. You're right, a shot at a perp sideways in close contact with the victim is very hard, but I would hope to have the bravery and coolness of thought to quietly approach with my weapon drawn close enough to guarantee an accurate shot.
4. Never shoot at someone without the sole intent to kill them.

But, it is very easy to write this in the safety of this office not ever having faced a situation myself.

Pointer
January 25, 2006, 04:27 PM
Ronny

You have me wrong...

I'm don't mean you must shoot him...
I mean you must do SOMETHING...
If shooting him is REQUIRED then shoot him... :rolleyes:

But, in many cases like this, you can stop the perp's beating on the woman, by simply shouting for him to stop or you are going to shoot him...

Two guys... one with a knife and one with a gun, could VERY likely have ended the assault on the woman much sooner simply by "intimidation" and at least delay the beating until "backup" arrives... LEO's do this everyday!

The majority of the time... it is UNECESSARY to do more than that.

IF, in the event, the intimidation fails to work... then try something else...

And shooting may well prove necessary...
In that event, you must convince the perp that you mean what you say and you must NOT hesitate.

Live and learn... DO NOT LET this one incident screw with your head... You must be OK with yourself so the the next time you have a similar experience your head will be "in the right place" for it... and you won't go off "half-cocked" and shoot someone you don't have to shoot. :)

BUT YOU MUST TRY! NOT JUST FUMBLE AROUND WITH YOUR FINGERS IN YOUR EARS...


LIKE A LIBERAL... :D :D :D

Capt Charlie
January 25, 2006, 04:29 PM
A bad guy has to have some semblance of skill to effectively employ the bellygun, with the knife, all he has to do is get close. If you manage to survive an edged weapon attack, you will most likely be maimed for life...
Amen to that! One of our officers was working a side job as security for a supermarket a few years back when he tried to stop a shoplifter. He never even saw the knife that slashed his abdomen, and the &#$% manager jumped in front of him when he went to shoot the SOB. He was on the floor with his guts hanging out when we arrived. He did survive it, but has trouble to this day. Don't ever underestimate someone with a knife!

Para Bellum
January 25, 2006, 04:33 PM
Ronny,

very well done. I'd love to live in your neighborhood. Thanks for bringing up the courage.

Stay safe.

brett23
January 25, 2006, 06:01 PM
Ronny,

If you don't mind telling me, where exactly did this happen? I don't live far from Tampa and I'm curious of the location.

Powderman
January 25, 2006, 06:43 PM
What does this all mean? I need more training, I was just lucky, the Lord took mercy on me, and I wasn't prepared for this at all.


Absolutely no reflection on you, friend, but you are correct. And believe me, I don't mean that in a bad way.

Way too many people feel that when they strap on a gun, it automatically makes them the most cool, ubertactical, gun savvy person on the planet! Jeff Cooper could take lessons; to them, Clint Smith is a serious wannabe.

This feeling permeates, and seems to become more entrenched as time passes....

Right until the first time that they have a REAL encounter.

I'm not saying that you did this, or had this mindset at all. Remember this, though, and remember it well:

YOU WILL FIGHT THE WAY YOU HAVE TRAINED.

Train the same way that you will fight; and fight as you have trained.

Under stress, you will revert to reflexive movements. It takes roughly 3,000 repititions to engrave something into muscle memory.

Your firearms training should be done in three phases, inclusively:

1. Legal considerations. This is by far the most important part. Learn the laws of your jurisdiction as they pertain to self defense, concealed carry, and permits. Contact your local prosecutor, ask lots of questions. Learn when NOT to shoot, when you CAN shoot, and when you'd BETTER shoot.

2. Marksmanship. Bluntly put, if you can't hit a 5" circle at 25 yards 100% of the time, within 3 seconds, train until you can. With either hand.

3. Tactics. Here is where most pistoleros fall short.

Practice shooting. Training in marksmanship is one thing; training for armed combat is another.

NEVER practice shooting while standing still. Fire two rounds, move; evaluate. Repeat as necessary. Practice shooting from retention, point shooting, Bill drills, Tueller drills, etc. Practice strong and weak hand reloads and shooting. Shoot from your right, left, cross body, sitting, on your back, from the prone, etc.

Use the "El Presidente" drill to evaluate speed and accuracy.

And above all, train. Train, and train again. Over and over again.

That being said, you did well. Of course, there were some things I would have done differently--but it doesn't count, because YOU were there, and I was not. ;)

Thanks for standing up. We need more people like you.

EBF
January 25, 2006, 06:46 PM
He said off of Bruce B Downs (30th St).

I'm guessing somewhere between Bearss and Busch. I could be wrong, just a shot in the dark.

Not a real "bad" area I don't think.....USF takes up a big chunk on the east side of that area.......and there's some pretty crappy areas on the west side, near the V.A and university mall.

Glockamolie
January 25, 2006, 07:14 PM
Ronny, just doing something may very well have saved her life, even if you didn't shoot him. You did a lot more than many people (especially the unarmed masses that are self-centered sheeple), so for that, be proud. I generally wouldn't expose myself to possible criminal and probable civil liability for a complete stranger by taking that shot. If I tried to intervene (which I would) and subsequently became the target, THEN I would be OK with shooting the guy.

625
January 25, 2006, 07:23 PM
Wow, tough to criticize without actually being there, but I would have been tempted to stop the guy sooner. Especially, since he was such a big guy and could have easily killed the woman with his bare hands. It's a shame he got away and will likely do this again who knows how many times. It's good you and your friends did not get hurt, but now he knows where they live and might think you live there.

Mannlicher
January 25, 2006, 07:32 PM
Ronny,

The only thing I could fault you for, is thinking that the cops were going to respond quicker then they did. Frankly, the fact that they do NOT respond quickly, is why most of us are packing.
Other than that, I think you did some quick thinking, that most likely saved the victims life, and you did not have to deal with killing someone.
Darn shame that more things don't turn out that good.

kennybs plbg
January 25, 2006, 08:47 PM
She didn't even thank me she was in so much shock.

I'm confused here, what should she be thanking you for? You called 911 to report it then watched her get the heck beat out of her and almost killed.
I tend to agree with Pointer's view on this one.

kenny b

kjeff50cal
January 25, 2006, 09:56 PM
Ronny I think you did exactly right with the situation you were in. You did not know these people and only leaned that the 300 lb nutcase was a sexual pred after the incident. What if this creep that you almost took out was her husband..... And she sues you for wrongful death even if he was beating Marching through Georgia on her head. FMPOV he did not act like your typical sex pred more like a berzerk boyfriend during a domestic distrubance.

kjeff50cal

625
January 25, 2006, 10:29 PM
You did not know these people and only leaned that the 300 lb nutcase was a sexual pred after the incident.

I think it was a safe guess that he was not the husband when she bailed from the SECOND story window.

Ronny
January 25, 2006, 10:32 PM
I'm confused here, what should she be thanking you for? You called 911 to report it then watched her get the heck beat out of her and almost killed.
I tend to agree with Pointer's view on this one.

Victims tend to be thankful to the strangers who call the police for them when they are unable to themselves.

But you're right, I could've done better. I had an ally with an edged weapon that I could've set upon the BG. I could've approached the BG from the side and shot him point blank.

I'm hoping that by sharing this, others may analyze how they would respond to this real life crisis and do better than I did. Already it seems, some would respond the way I did, and others would have pulled the trigger sooner.

I'm don't mean you must shoot him...
I mean you must do SOMETHING...
If shooting him is REQUIRED then shoot him...

I called the police, got his attention and endangered my friend and her boyfriend in their own apartment. If I were an LEO, I'd have done a lot more a lot better. As it was, I was just an average man returning home from Church. But yes, Pointer, I've thought long and hard about the things you bring up and more ever since that night.

Also once again, I don't feel comfortable releasing the name of the apartment complex because it might have legal consequences that I really don't want to deal with. It was a off of 30th towards the University.

tyme
January 25, 2006, 11:21 PM
Two guys... one with a knife and one with a gun, could VERY likely have ended the assault on the woman much sooner simply by "intimidation" and at least delay the beating until "backup" arrives... LEO's do this everyday!
Okay... suppose he and his friend's boyfriend had approached the BG with gun and knife drawn. BG pulls a knife out of his pocket and threatens to slit her throat. Now you've got a hostage situation, no training to deal with it, no good shot, and minutes before the police get there. Good luck.

Pointer
January 25, 2006, 11:52 PM
Tyme

I truly don't mean to argue for arguments sake...

But "supposing" the perp might do something and seeing him do something are very different things...

The perp "coulda" pulled the knife and cut the woman up while "we" were standing in the doorway watching and doing nothing at all...

Any delaying action or distraction or intimidation or threat to the perp, has at least the effect of doing more than watching the crime take place...

According to Ronny the victim had asked for help...

Ronny Again, I repeat, DO NOT LET this screw up your head.
You are not a bad person because you reacted this way under stress...

NO ONE can know ahead of time what they will do under stress...
BUT you can go over this and many other scenarios until you are pretty confident that you will respond in a more effective manner.

I once went completely "blank" for what seemed like an eternity, when a guy was choking on his steak and I suddenly forgot how to do the Heimlich maneuver on a very over weight man... The reason? I had had no previous experience with this situation and had not pondered or visualized the scenario in my mind beforehand...

DO NOT LET this eat at you... you will do better the next time... and anything you can do to interfere with the criminal, is better than being a bystanding witness... :)

I'm sure the victim is glad to be alive and as NavyLT said if you can walk away from it... you did alright. ;)

NDTerminator
January 26, 2006, 09:52 AM
Ronny, as I said before, you did just fine. You found yourself in a typical unexpected scenario, and you discovered it requires, instant assessment, reaction, re-assessment, reaction, and so on. In fact, I would say you did an outstanding job, considering you aren't a trained LEO.

For those opinioning you should have shot the badguy and making chest beating statements like "defend the weak and downtrodden", I'll say this.

First, better check your CCW and use of force statutes. I can assure you nothing in there authorizes you to be a part-time-when-you-feel-like-it unsworn LEO, vigilante, or superhero.

Also, when I hear some guy (including LEOs) making these "kill em' all" statements, it tells me they haven't BTDT, and are just running their mouths. I don't know a LEO who has looked through the sights at another human being with pressure on the trigger faced with the decision, who talks this way.

The kid's table is over there, let the grown ups talk...

GUNSMOKE45441
January 26, 2006, 10:14 AM
You did what you did, and I say WELL DONE!!!!

kennybs plbg
January 26, 2006, 12:58 PM
Not everyone was suggesting to shoot the person, just to try to stop the assult on the woman instead of watching it. Times change for good and bad and the reactions of many here clearly display such a change. Wether you had a handgun or not I can not imagin not doing something, it shows how weak we're becoming as a civilization and many condon it as normal today. I know there are still real men out there, they're just getting harder to find. This may offend some that fall into this catagory, but just call mom and vent.

kenny b

Pointer
January 27, 2006, 12:36 AM
Kennyb

+1

I musta missed those posts that were advocating macho-kill-em-all stuff...

I agree with you... it seems that selfish attitudes prevail in these modern times.

Since when is it UNACCEPTIBLE to defend the weak and downtrodden?

Is self-preservation all there is in the hearts of our fellow men?

Selfishness is the foundation of everything liberal and the "Big City", New York mentality of watching a crime take place, and "not getting involved", has spread even into "our" ranks.

It is the same selfishness that "allows" them to go about their lives blindly ignoring the torture and murder and tyrannical treatment of innocents in foreign lands. "It's over there... it has nothing to do with me..."

And then when someone does want to step in to help "they" get upset and call him the terrorist and dictator.

making chest beating statements like "defend the weak and downtrodden",

God help us... It's a cinch that NDTerminator won't help us and speaking of "chest beating", he is probably a "terminator" in name only. :mad:

R1145
January 27, 2006, 12:47 AM
Discretion is the better part of valor.

XDoctor
January 27, 2006, 06:02 PM
Its easy to say 'I'd have shot him.' But you never really know how you'll react or what you'll do until you're pointing a gun at another human being and trying to decide weather or not the treat is great enough to take away all he's got and all he's ever going to have.

Powderman
January 27, 2006, 06:48 PM
Its easy to say 'I'd have shot him.' But you never really know how you'll react or what you'll do until you're pointing a gun at another human being and trying to decide weather or not the treat is great enough to take away all he's got and all he's ever going to have.

Agreed, 100%.

And THAT is the reasoning behind my earlier post.

Good guys often think of this very fact--the reason that we ARE the good guys is our reluctance to do anything that will cause pain, suffering or deprivation to our fellow man, no matter how reprehensible that fellow man might be.

This reflexive act is the normal state of affairs for the normal human being. Unfortunately, it is also the state of affairs--and of mind--that will more than likely get the good guys hurt or killed.

It is no fault at all of the poster that he hesitated at the moment of truth, when a deadly force situation unfolded right in front of him. Blame instead the civilized manner in which we are raised, and where the majority of us adhere to the tenets of our upbringings, which advocate compassion and kindness.

To be effective and prepared for self defense--or the defense of others--that inbred compassion must be modified; the hesitance MUST be eliminated, and the will to cause harm or to kill must be ingrained. This is the primary reason that the armed services are so hard on the troops in basic training/boot camp--because killing is the most repugnant thing to us--at least the civilized ones.

You must learn to recognize when the moment of truth arrives; learn the difference between shoot and no-shoot and be able to apply sound judgement.

And when the moment of truth arrives, you must be sure in your movements and your decision. You must be willing to carry through and complete the action if need be, without hesitation or second guessing--or, like GySgt Hartman (Full Metal Jacket) said, you will be a DEAD good guy--and then you will be in a world of (you know what) because GOOD GUYS SHOULD NOT DIE WITHOUT PERMISSION!!!:)

In conclusion, the original poster should NOT be faulted for his actions in any way. He stood forth to meet the challenge, and assisted in the best way that he was capable of doing at the time.

Ronny, as the saying goes, you'll do to ride the river with. If you're ever out this way (Washington State) hook up with me, and I'll hoist a cold one with you. (Mine will have to be root beer, because I don't drink alcohol.:) ) Muy hombre, vaquero. Muy hombre.

Pointer
January 27, 2006, 08:24 PM
Its easy to say 'I'd have shot him.'

It's a good thing nobody said that in this thread!! :rolleyes:

we ARE the good guys is our reluctance to do anything that will cause pain, suffering or deprivation to our fellow man, no matter how reprehensible that fellow man might be.


That "piece of work" hardly qualifies for my compassion when there is another of my "fellows" getting her face bashed in...

The choice is clear to me... even if it seems "warm" and a little "fuzzy" to you.

Discretion is the better part of valor.

This a platitude and it is cliche. It also doesn't fit into anything that has been said in this thread. Perhaps you could elaborate... a little? :confused:

kennybs plbg
January 27, 2006, 09:39 PM
Blame instead the civilized manner in which we are raised, and where the majority of us adhere to the tenets of our upbringings, which advocate compassion and kindness.


It is no longer a civilized manner today but a politically correct one. Where is it civilized to not react and help the helpless in need, but rather give the first consideration of compassion and kindness to the agressor.
When I read such garbage it makes sick.

You must learn to recognize when the moment of truth arrives; learn the difference between shoot and no-shoot and be able to apply sound judgement.


At one time this was covered in our upbringing. People knew right from wrong, it was taught by their parents, family members, schools etc. They didn't need to read it in a book midway through life before being able to make a sound judgement. My children will leave my home with this ability when the time comes, actually the time is here and I have doubt of their outcome.

kenny b

Half-Price Assassin
January 27, 2006, 11:02 PM
ok anyone that criticizes our hero is just being unreasonable. he did what he thought was right, without running the possiblity of sharing a jail cell with the people like the attacker. remember everyone, we live in a society that loves to punish people for brandishing a gun, or even using it, in ANY situation. there have been many cases where cops have discarged their firearms to save lives, only to be tied up in court facing civil charges, and having their savings wiped out paying legal costs, or facing criminal charges. remember con-air, when the hero went to jail, cause he killed a scum bag in selfdefense, well that stuff does happen, good hoenst people do go to jail doing the right thing. i think if i was in the same situation, i would have done the same thing, and the only reason i wouldnt have done more is because i would be afraid of some wacko judge throwing the book at me cause i didnt "use enough restraint". this country is full of peace-loving hippies that think all you have to do to solve your problems is "talk it out", which is true bull$h**. i will be honest i would have loved to shoot the bastard, a rapist, who would have killed some poor defensless woman, the world would be better off with out him. but you can never forget our wonderful justice system, that might burn you for doint the right thing.

here is a question, what if you shoot him in the knee once he got up and said "shoot me Motherfu**er"? or shoot him in the lower leg area, to prevent him from running off, or maybe killing the poor woman? i would have considered a leg shoot, now after thinking it over.

anyway good thread and thanks for sharing

kennybs plbg
January 28, 2006, 12:03 AM
cut him some slack


Ronny my comments are in response to todays civilization, I hope you don't think I'm singling you out. I'm sure you did what you thought was best at the time and it may have been, but even you are having second thoughts of your actions. Some here wouldn't have even did what you have, and yet others would still be waiting for the response from Dear Abby to see what they should do.

kenny b

Pointer
January 28, 2006, 12:00 PM
Half-fast-Assassin... er uh, Half-price ;)

We do not have to go to EXTREMES to help the victim who's getting her face caved in...

We don't have to go to jail or get sued...

As I said, we only have to do SOMETHING or anything to get the BG to stop beating on her...

IF in the event the BG turns his attentions to us...

We can:

1. Run around a parked car...

2. Hide inside and close the apartment door...

3. Kick him in the 'nads...

4. Or shoot the s.o.b. in the 'nads...

5. Or kill him...

ALL of the above options are SELF-DEFENSE!! or third-
party-defense, and even in Liberal City you won't go to jail for self-defense.

In the MEANTIME we have STOPPED the beating of the victim, (Perhaps saving her life.) at least, long enough for backup to arrive...


BTW, I think you should change your "handle"... :rolleyes:

Half-Fast is cooler than Half-Price and a whole lot better than Half-Baked. :D :D :D

Jus' kiddin' :p

big daddy 9mm
January 28, 2006, 01:23 PM
its sad that we have such evil in our world. we need to shoot that guys nuts off.:) :mad:

fiVe
January 31, 2006, 12:23 PM
Ronny,

Thanks for posting your story. You've given us all much on which to ponder.

I hope I never have an encounter such as yours.

Regards,
fiVe

WhyteP38
January 31, 2006, 08:45 PM
I think Ronny did okay. Not perfect, but he had enough sense to pull his gun--I've read of folks who carry who don't when needed--and to push his so-called friend--who was escalating an already bad situation--to the periphery. I *hope* I would have pulled my gun rather than my cellphone if in his situation. Not necessarily pulled and fired, but pulled and ready. And Ronny did stop the guy from pounding the woman. Not immediately, true, but the guy stopped when he turned toward Ronny and then fled when he saw the gun. I'd grade Ronny's performance as a B. Not an F or an A, but better than the average I've read and heard about.

The ongoing issue, as I see it, is that most of us are taken by surprise by these situations. Classic Condition White. How many of us walk around in Condition Yellow as we should? Sadly, habit leaves most of us (including me) in Condition White most of the time.

Ronny, thanks for posting. For me, the lesson learned is to practice more situational awareness and mental "what if" scenarios. When I used to ride motorcycles, I constantly practiced three mental scenarios:

1) Escape routes. All I needed was an opening the size of a common doorway to squirt through in case someone in a car or truck cut me off or if there was road debris ahead. That mental drill alone saved me several times.

2) Car wheels moving. Forward, backward, left, right, it doesn't matter--if a car is waiting to pull into traffic and those front wheels are moving, the driver is thinking more about where he wants to go than about you. I dodged a few drivers who suddenly pulled out in front of me, because I was prepared.

3) Vehicles with stuff strapped to the outside. Things fall off. On a motorcycle, if you hit something, you'll probably lose. Never ride behind a vehicle with stuff strapped to the outside.

I suggest it's a good idea to figure out a couple of self-defense scenarios--"What if such-and-such happens? What would I do?"--when you go places. It's difficult to do at first, but it becomes second-nature when you practice it enough. You might still be caught by surprise, but not AS surprised.

Hook686
February 6, 2006, 02:15 AM
01-27-2006, 09:39 PM #44
kennybs plbg
Senior Member


Join Date: 05-27-2004
Location: Western New York
Posts: 222 Quote:
Blame instead the civilized manner in which we are raised, and where the majority of us adhere to the tenets of our upbringings, which advocate compassion and kindness.



It is no longer a civilized manner today but a politically correct one. Where is it civilized to not react and help the helpless in need, but rather give the first consideration of compassion and kindness to the agressor.
When I read such garbage it makes sick.


Quote:
You must learn to recognize when the moment of truth arrives; learn the difference between shoot and no-shoot and be able to apply sound judgement.



At one time this was covered in our upbringing. People knew right from wrong, it was taught by their parents, family members, schools etc. They didn't need to read it in a book midway through life before being able to make a sound judgement. My children will leave my home with this ability when the time comes, actually the time is here and I have doubt of their outcome.

kenny b


kenny, I once read of a Michigan Dept. of Fish & Game project that took o few dozen Mule deer from the Southwest and transplanted them to Michigan. A few years later there were over 1,000 Mule deer roaming the Michigan forrest. The Fish & Game folks were very happy ... their project was viewed as very successful. However, it was the mid 50's, as I recall, the worst blizzard in a long, long time in that region. Come Spring, there remained roughly two dozen Mule deer ... the rest had not survived the harsh winter. Without the natural preditors to weed out the herd, all survived, even the weak ones that would not have made it back in their native habitat.

What does this have to do with this thread ... well it seems to me, if most folks must rely upon others for their survival, the species loses that which is essential for survival ... the weak perish. This is what I view the responses of some that postulate a strong, violent response.

2nd, I wonder at the judgements used by some folks to decicide who is to live, and who is to die ... are written standards to be prepared ... who writes those standards, applies them, adjudicates them ? Perhaps there will be no standards of personal interaction, perhaps a simple "Law of the Jungle" approach to be the standard ? However then, how will it be determined who the weak are, who are to protected ?

Sometimes I think those that advocate swift, violent, retribution are the more frightened. I applaud Ronny, a marvelous scenario .... and yes I think he trained well for this experience ... did he not say he was returning from church.