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springmom
January 24, 2006, 01:32 AM
It has indeed been a bad week. I have written about this finally at my blog, The Mind Boggles (and it does indeed after this week!) at www.themindboggles.blogspot.com Since this involves RKBA and tactics I would welcome your reading and commenting, here or on the blog itself.

BTW, since it is "The Mind Boggles" I chose "Boggle Mama" as my nickname over there, lol. Just so you don't get confused....

I have had it. Anything else and I'm going to go bang my head on a wall. :eek:

Springmom

stratus
January 24, 2006, 02:31 AM
"I realized that even if I'd had a gun it would have just been counterproductive, that by the time the guy had drawn on me, I just needed to survive, not fight."

Words of wisdom on your son's part. Fighting a hopeless battle is not immediately the smartest thing in the world, and he recognized this, and made the best possible judgment call to ensure his survival in light of the situation.

I am very, very glad they are both okay, albeit very, very indignant that these things happened to them in the first place.

It reminds me of the quote from Taxi Driver, "Someday a real rain will come and wash all this scum off the streets."

In our case, a fair amount of scum was washed away promptly from New Orleans and into the Houston area.

Surreal.

The crowds at some of the gun stores I frequent are changing. Infer from that what you will. And other things are changing. Crime in my girlfriend's neighborhood has gone up. She's interested in learning to shoot the Taurus PT-111 Millenium Pro she got a while back and left to sit in her safe. She's taking an interest in her own preservation as well as that of her family, and not a moment too soon.

It's not that we didn't already have our fair share of gangbangers and other such wastes of life, it's just, well... we have more of them now.

Springmom, give your kids a pat on the back for me, they have excellent heads on their shoulders. Give yourself a pat on the back too, after all, you're the one who raised 'em. :)

gac009
January 24, 2006, 02:52 AM
Let me tell you, Harris county gets worse by the year. I got mugged myself not too long ago by a gang member who was part of a group of crips in my apt complex responsible for a string a serial muggings in the area that went on for over a month, several a knife point. Luckily my only injury was a financial one. I had another encounter the other day when a large young male in typical gangsta dress yelled "HEY BOY!!!" at me as I walking at night as he ran full speed twords me, I stopped walking turned around and looked him in the eyes and he turned around laughing and walked away, dont know what that was about.

Ive debated owing my own firearm since a little before I turned 21 about a year and half ago. Every time I hear about someone getting killed by crime in a 15 block radius of me it just reinforces my belief that one day I may need a firearm "just to survive". I hope I never have to fight with one.

Your son sounds very smart. I would be proud.

better to have one and not need it.....

azurefly
January 24, 2006, 04:48 AM
gac009, you gonna wait until it's too late to get yourself that gun that may save your life? I don't get it. :confused:


-azurefly

gac009
January 24, 2006, 05:10 AM
About a month ago I finally decided that I could if necessary take another life to protect my own. Not an easy thing to decide for me, resolving to take a life. Before that there was no point in me owning a gun if I wasnt sure that when the time came that I could use it. The decision to own a gun should not be made lightly. If you read my other post you will see that at the moment I am educating myself as much as I can in gun knowledge and deciding what kind of gun I want to start with, Im thinking a 150$ mosseberg 500 with 18 brl and a sub compact springfield xd 9 with factory nite sights.
Ofcouse with my limited knowledge of guns Id like to look around some more before commiting.

My deadline is FEB 10th.

DavidJBlythe
January 24, 2006, 08:05 AM
Springmom,
You mentioned Katrina "refugees" in your blog. Did you get refugees in your area? If so, what else have you seen change in your surroundings since their infusion? I would imagine that most or all would be also integrated to some kind of welfare program for the duration of their visit, which will probably be forever. Are their apartment complexes or hotels they have taken over? Very interested here.

SMITH910
January 24, 2006, 08:38 AM
What kind of area do you live in??? I say move far away from there. That's too many bad things happening to stay, sounds like your neighborhoods' gone to hell.

Chris Phelps
January 24, 2006, 09:13 AM
Definitly sounds like a horrible week.


In Maine, you can own a handgun and CCW when you are 18, but you cannot buy it at a store. You have to have your parents purchase it, then have the FFL transfer it to you. It seems I live in the only state where they do this?


That was indeed a well written piece.

Ares45
January 24, 2006, 10:46 AM
Not an easy thing to decide for me, resolving to take a life.

GAC009:
I prefer to think of it as "what am I willing to do to ensure my own survival?" The answer to that is anything it takes. I have never resolved to take another life. I will, however, defend myself with lethal force if necessary. It won't be my decision to make if one day I am forced to take another's life. The other party will have made that decision for me.

Glad to hear that you at a young age are willing and capable of asking the tough questions. A huge step in the right direction of become a responsible citizen, gun owner, and CCW'er if you ask me.

Derius_T
January 24, 2006, 12:15 PM
I am extremely glad youself and your family are safe. We will put you in our prayers.

There were alot of decent people displaced when katrina hit. That being said, looks like you got alot of the RATS that deserted their sinking ship.

Let people say what they want. I have been to NOLA quite a few times, and hae friends and family that lived down there over the years. Certain areas had some of the absolute WORST CRIME, and WORST LEO RESPONSE, of anywhere I have been or seen. Is it my fault the majority were young blacks......or theirs.....

Seems like alot of young people, especially blacks, have been completely ruined by todays society. Its now cool to be a 'gangsta'.

Wonder why they don't try that crap on some REAL gangsters?

springmom
January 24, 2006, 12:26 PM
....to try, when they end up in Huntsville.

Thanks all; keep reading and responding and feel free to crosspost and pass it on to your friends.

FWIW this actually IS a nice neighborhood. We like all our neighbors. Our two Irish terriers have single handedly.... well, four-pawsedly...gotten a number of kids who were TERRIFIED of dogs now coming up RUNNING to pet them when we walk them. Remember it was a neighbor (one of the real neighbors) who put herself on the line at 10 pm.+ to chase the thugs away from Aaron's car earlier that week. That's a good neighborhood.

But there is an influx of not-so-nice people from east of here. The good ones already have jobs, already are contributing, and already are eligible victims for the rest of the scum. And anytime an area has an influx of new criminals, the OLD balance of criminals/turf/etc is going to get upset and you're going to see activity where it was not before, or at least that is my reasoning. LEO's chime in to clarify if this is correct.

Springmom

Capt Charlie
January 24, 2006, 01:20 PM
I'm really glad they got 'em! But I imagine your son's still pretty sore. It's usually the 2nd or 3rd day before you feel the full brunt of the injuries.

A couple of things I would suggest: First, stay on the prosecutor's backside. Keep in touch with him, and ask to be kept appraised on the case. Make him see the assault as if he was the victim. Squeaky wheels get the grease ;) .

Second, it sounds like your neighborhood still has a chance. Neighborhood watches work, if done right, but there comes a point where the "cancer" has gone too far. It needs to be done now! Get together with your neighbors and get united and organized. Get local LE involved; they love neighborhood watch and will help you organize and train.

As the Book says, A house divided can't stand. Neither can neighborhoods.

superdude
January 24, 2006, 01:46 PM
I Love to read this kind of stuff. but am so sorry to hear. I just turned 21 a couple of months ago and i getting my money and mind in the right state to own a gun. It helps me to read this stuff like this to help me if I am ever in a situation like that. ( I will more than likely be in more than my fair share, I plan a becoming a police officer.) Springmom I sorry to hear all your troubbles, glad to know you and your sons are smarts and know what to do to help keep themselfs safe. Hopefully you will have a better and safer week. Thanks to everyone for your words of wisdom that I read everyday.

Trip20
January 24, 2006, 02:14 PM
This filthy :barf: goes on all over America. You can't imagine what kids have to deal with on the playground now-a-days, compared to when you were their age.

America is full of breeders; parents are a minority.

stephen426
January 24, 2006, 02:17 PM
Hey SpringMom,

Sorry to hear about your family's misfortunes. On the other hand, both your sons are alive due to their wise decisions and quick thinking. Give yourself a big pat on the shoulder for that. By the way you are a very articulate writer. You should tell the prosecuter to look into threating your son's attack as a hate crime and push for a stiffer penalty. Also be sure to keep up to date on the release of those scumbags so they don't come back and retaliate. Better yet, make sure your entire family is prepared to retaliate when they show up. Look up the laws in Texas. In FL it is legal for someone under 21 to own a handgun even theough they are not allowed to buy ammunition. I think it is basically allowed when "transporting" it to and from the range or to a place of employment where they are "legally" allowed to carry it. I've been carrying since I was 19. I work in the fastfood restaurant biz and refuse to simply "hand it over" after busting my chops to some scumbag who probably hasn't performed an honest day's work in his life! Besides, with the way these scumbags are today, there is no gaurantee that they won't shoot you just for kicks after you give them what they want (or what you have anyways).

It is sad to see the moral fabric of our society deteriorating to where it is today. Have you listened to the crap they play on the radio these days? Kids are stupid enough to believe this stuff rather than taking it as harmless entertainment and fiction becomes reality. Look at the role models they have. It is okay to look up to upstanding professional athletes but these kids are idolizing THUGS! It is sad to see how bad things have become.

Stay safe, stay alert, and give em' HELL when they come looking for it!

stephen426
January 24, 2006, 03:05 PM
Spring Mom,

One other bit of advice I forgot to mention that may come in handy. Your son did a good thing by high tailing it away from the other vehicle but he should have called the highway patrol and given them his location. I know he was probably all shook up and was just concentrating on getting away, but the bad guy got away as well. In Miami, the highway patrol is pretty quick to respond to this kind of thing. I have heard about people calling in such threats and giving a vehicle description. The cavalry comes charging in a few minutes later and one less piece of crap on the roadways. One other possibility is driving to the nearest police station and blaring the horn.

I'm glad your son was not injured, but he could have gotten into an accident or even caused someone else to get into an accident. I suggest you share this suggestion with him in case it something like that happens again. Make sure your kids all have cell phones for such emergencies.

Barr
January 24, 2006, 03:34 PM
I am sorry to hear about your sons' troubles. Makes me want to go get my concealed carry permit right now. (I have already qualified, I just have to plunk down the cash and officially apply for it.) Gang members are not very brave when confronted with the business end of a high capacity 9mm stoked with 124gr JHP.

Hook686
January 24, 2006, 04:09 PM
WoW ! Talk about lightening hitting twice in the same spot ... I shake my head. You have indeed had a week to remember. I can certainly understand your thoughts and feelings ... my son was threatened with a knife when he walked through a condominium complex next to ours and was confronted by a latino kid a year or two younger than his 17 years. Being a dumb jock, he walked up and decked the kid with a right cross to the nose. The kid took off up stairs to a 2nd storey unit and 4 bigger, and older latinos came out with the younger kid. My son is lucky he was in high school sports, for he was able to outrun them. My son has gotten wiser with age, but I still suspect his 1st impulse would to hit first, as hard as he can.

In reading your web page I can understand your thoughts and reactions. I will offer an opposite view simply to offer another view. I see Iraq much as you describe your promoted community, "They meant every able-bodied adult (not kids....neither of my sons are quite yet able to fill this role) to be armed, to be able to use those arms, and to be able to both KEEP and to BEAR them".

Unfortunately I suspect that such a community would become much like Iraq, and other middle eastern countries. Everyone would have weapons ... lots of gun fights ... and the governing body (authority) would need be as tough, strong, ruthless as a Saddam Hussein. Who else could hold together a country to rival, gun totting, groups (gangs, tribes, parties). I note here in the USA politicians we elect, or public servents hired, or appointed are routinely caught providing themselves, and their followers gratuities out of the public coffers ... some even get away with killing someone.

While maybe 50% of the folks carry a gun, the badguy has to guess and just might decide not to pick a victim, if he thinks the person might be armed. On the other hand, knowing the potential victim is armed will result in a stronger 1st assualt. Look at Iraq, those folks are armed to the teeth and they have multple deaths, kidnappings, etc. every week ... even the police and military members are not exempt.

Is that your dream community ... everyone with a gun. Do you really think that would stop everyone from criminal activity ? Instead of walking up and beating up your son, the guy could have walked up and shot him. Is that better ?

Unfortunately I think this country is spending way too much trying to do the impossible in Iraq. I personally think the money would have been better spent on police and military forces in this country, for building and funding more institutions to house more criminals, and for rebuilding our devistated areas, such as New Orleans. My big fear is that American lust for cheap goods and services, is counter to the productivity of our country. See http://pf.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

I think of the neighborhoods I grew up in during the 50's and then look at the neighborhoods I see today ... I too shudder. Maybe my grandson will have to carry an M16 and granades in his backpack, instead of books, just to go to school, but I certainly do not like that picture.

For these reasons I very much support it being tough to get a CCW, and do not think every Tom, Dick and Harry (or Trixie, Donna, and Harriet) ought be able to carry a concealed weapon.


I realize this is not the opinion on this board. Remember, I too carry (S&W 686), served honorably in another war, so I am not an anti. I would just like to hear other thoughts and opinions along these lines, in response to your story.

springmom
January 24, 2006, 04:28 PM
In reading your web page I can understand your thoughts and reactions. I will offer an opposite view simply to offer another view. I see Iraq much as you describe your promoted community, "They meant every able-bodied adult (not kids....neither of my sons are quite yet able to fill this role) to be armed, to be able to use those arms, and to be able to both KEEP and to BEAR them".

Unfortunately I suspect that such a community would become much like Iraq, and other middle eastern countries. Everyone would have weapons ... lots of gun fights ... and the governing body (authority) would need be as tough, strong, ruthless as a Saddam Hussein. Who else could hold together a country to rival, gun totting, groups (gangs, tribes, parties). I note here in the USA politicians we elect, or public servents hired, or appointed are routinely caught providing themselves, and their followers gratuities out of the public coffers ... some even get away with killing someone.

While maybe 50% of the folks carry a gun, the badguy has to guess and just might decide not to pick a victim, if he thinks the person might be armed. On the other hand, knowing the potential victim is armed will result in a stronger 1st assualt. Look at Iraq, those folks are armed to the teeth and they have multple deaths, kidnappings, etc. every week ... even the police and military members are not exempt.

Is that your dream community ... everyone with a gun. Do you really think that would stop everyone from criminal activity ? Instead of walking up and beating up your son, the guy could have walked up and shot him. Is that better ?

Um. The scum who assaulted my son DID HAVE A GUN AND DID SHOOT AT HIM. They just didn't hit him.

How you can compare Iraq to the appropriate self defense of families and communities is beoyond me. I am not in a place to answer this, but I do not believe that the Founding Fathers meant for the U.S. to be anything but a place of freedom. Iraq is a cesspit of lawlessness and insurgency.

Others can take on your "not anti" views. I've got other things to be upset about right now.

Springmom

Wisby
January 24, 2006, 04:37 PM
Springmom,
Times sure do change fast. What happened to your family and Sons is not something that I would expect for that area. At least your kids where smart in both situations and neither one of them where hurt beyond repair. I grew up in Cypress and Magnolia and left there when I joined the Navy... My family is still there of'course. That story really hits home for me and kinda worries me well really worries I have a little brother age 22 that goes out and does what 22 year old males do when there single, and of course he won't listen to me because he knows so much more than I do :rolleyes: but guess i'll give it a shot tonight when I get off work and try to talk to him about being careful. I wish the best for you and your family and hope the problem gets undercontrol one way or another.

xjmox14x
January 24, 2006, 04:48 PM
How in the hell did this thread turn into a debate about Iraq??? Hook686, this is a thread about Springmom and her family, not a political situation that is taking place 4,000 miles away. If you have a problem with Iraq, post it in the Politics section, not on this thread. I'm new to this forum, please don't tell me this is just another one of those "Bush is f****** up Iraq" forums. Leave it out.

Hook686
January 24, 2006, 05:18 PM
My 1st thought is to tell you to go pound sand xjmox14x. I am not offering debate. I am curious why do you think that ? I simply ask for anyone's introspective thoughts on the thoughts presented in this thread. No debate. My thoughts and feelings are mine. Ought I fear expressing them on this board. Can you express yours along the thoughts presented in this thread ? No "Right, or wrong" here. Simply anyone thoughts, ideas, opinions, feelings on a community where everyone was armed.

Capt Charlie
January 24, 2006, 05:28 PM
OK, glad that's settled (it is, right?)

Now, back on topic!

Dwight55
January 24, 2006, 06:58 PM
Hook686, . . . I would like to address your question and your statement:

"Is that your dream community ... everyone with a gun. Do you really think that would stop everyone from criminal activity ? Instead of walking up and beating up your son, the guy could have walked up and shot him. Is that better ?"

Yes, . . . I have no fear whatsoever from the 45,000+ CCW holders here in the state of Ohio. Not one of them has ever been convicted of a major crime, . . . not one of them is a convicted spousal abuser, . . . none of them has ever spent time in the "big house" for crimes against humanity or their fellow citizens. Other than other like-checked out groups in other states, . . . there is no group their size with so clean a background. The same cannot be said for the American Bar Association, the American Medical Association, or the National Teachers Whatever just for starters. Don't even get me started on Kalifornia politicians.

"For these reasons I very much support it being tough to get a CCW, and do not think every Tom, Dick and Harry (or Trixie, Donna, and Harriet) ought be able to carry a concealed weapon."

And just how would your high and mighty criteria read for obtaining a CCW? I suppose those in a wheel chair or on other mobility assistants would be opted out. Heart patients, . . . excessive arthritis, . . . cancer patients, . . . folks who used to be in the military, . . . would you deny these also??? How about Springmom here, . . . probably deny her because she is just an emotional woman, . . . you know, . . . got all them kids and probably too high strung to safely be entrusted with a firearm.:barf:

There has to be some criteria, . . . and being an adult with no skeletons in the background, . . . I think that is plenty enough. The CCW should also be recognized in all 50 states and WDC too.

You need to do some thinking, . . . you've sounded a lot more like Teddy Kennedy than Ronald Reagan.

May God bless,
Dwight

OneInTheChamber
January 24, 2006, 07:18 PM
Holy crap, that is one bad week. I feel very sorry for you. That whole thing makes me :mad: .

Best of luck in the future.

Hook686
January 24, 2006, 07:39 PM
And just how would your high and mighty criteria read for obtaining a CCW? I suppose those in a wheel chair or on other mobility assistants would be opted out. Heart patients, . . . excessive arthritis, . . . cancer patients, . . . folks who used to be in the military, . . . would you deny these also???

Dwight ... I am a disabled American veteran. I was not excluded. I am in California ... perhaps not the toughest, but certainy not the easiest place to get a CCW. Perhaps this group, as a group (those with CCW licenses), has a pretty good group record simply because of the strict standards that are applied ... not everyone can get a CCW and every applicant here in California is open to a psychological evaluation, in addition to having their full record checked.

How about Springmom here, . . . probably deny her because she is just an emotional woman, . . . you know, . . . got all them kids and probably too high strung to safely be entrusted with a firearm.

Personally I do not like the references you make to Springmom as an emotional woman, with lots of kids that cause her to be high strung. Geeesh ! I view her as an adult citizen, with all the rights, privilages, duties and obligations that go along with that staus. Other than what I read on her web page, and here, I know nothing else about her. Be nice.

There has to be some criteria, . . . and being an adult with no skeletons in the background, . . . I think that is plenty enough. The CCW should also be recognized in all 50 states and WDC too.

Yes I can understand that you believe that some criteria is needed in order to decide who can carry a weapon, and who cannot. Once it is decided that a criteria is required, the next step is, "What is the criteria " ? You suggest, "No skeletons in the background." What are "Sketons in the background" ? A DUI on ones record ? Any sort of record at all ? skipping school ? Unpaid parking tickets ? An ex who filed a complaint against you in domestic court, and had a restraining order lodged agaist you (that applies here in California) ?

I find once it is decided that a criteria is required, I find myself right in the very situation that exists today, some get a license, some do not. As I expressed, I don't have a problem with that. In fact it is this very thinking that led to my questions, not an unjust, or unempathetic response to Springmom's post.

I really have no "High and mighty criteria". I'm just wondering what folks think the criteria, if any, ought be .... or does everybody get to carry ?

I was just thinking. Please don't let my thoughts aggrivate you ... just the silly thoughts of an old disabled veteran, who thinks he has trouble with everybody carrying a weapon, or coming up with a list of criteria to sort out the eligible applicants. Dwight it was not me that would exclude the disabled, it was Springmom who indicated she would limit carry to the abled bodied, not me.

You need to do some thinking, . . . you've sounded a lot more like Teddy Kennedy than Ronald Reagan.

I do some thinking, maybe too much thinking. No I'm not a supporter of Teddy Kennedy ... but then I do not support "Reaganomics" either, nor many of his other ideas.




__________________
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!


You are most welcome Dwight.

bigautomatic
January 24, 2006, 07:46 PM
I'll keep this short and to the point. Capt Charlie is right on target. Springmom, you cannot let them win. Take a stand in your neighborhood, get organized. Go door to door. I'll bet most of the people in your neighborhood are waiting for someone like you to get the ball rolling! TAKE YOUR NEIGHBORHOOD BACK.

xjmox14x
January 24, 2006, 07:53 PM
Ok, I've pounded some sand........moving on, I agree with bigautomatic, get a neighborhood watch thing going. Let the local PD know that you're doing this and that you're concerned. If this sort of thing happens again, make sure EVERYONE knows about it and the intruders are met by not only the PD but 20 ****** off neighbors as well. It's your property and neighborhood, make sure it stays that way.

springmom
January 24, 2006, 09:00 PM
RIght. We talked to the constable about that idea that night in the ER as we were finishing up getting Aaron's statement written/signed. It will, interestingly, take a multi-neighborhood watch to make this work.

The reason (those of you who know the Houston suburbs may now take a nap) is that each neighborhood is actually its own little quasi-legal entity. Each neighborhood contracts with either the constables OR the sheriff's office for police protection. This is because the two overlap, I suppose.

At any rate, there are about as many neighborhoods within, say, two miles of here, as my dog has fleas in July. Each one has to do their own neighborhood watch thing, or else there will be "holes" in the security net that the BG's will slip through. (Can you tell I'm trying to figure out how to make this work?) ;)

What we will need is some sort of interface that will enable, say, the Fairfax Neighborhood Watch patrol (who should have been near enough to have heard this going on) to contact the Postwood and Birnamwood and other Neighborhood Watches (all of whom need to have civilians on patrol armed with two way radios that the sheriffs and or constables will hear) and the LEO of their jurisdiction.

In other words, we need a comprehensive system, and what we HAVE is a patchwork quilt.

Our little neighborhood is really quite good (evidenced by the lady who jumped out of her car to chase off the car thieves in action!) But we are a neighborhood with only one entrance/exit and maybe 40-50 houses total on that loop. We are really set up for taking care of ourselves. We have a constable who lives right across the street (although he's not assigned here, of course). We have people who know each other, our neighborhood is always active and out on the streets or our front yards when the weather is nice... you can't get much better. What we don't have is any control at all over what happens 3/4 of a mile away in Fairfax.

I wonder if life was ever as uncomplicated as I thought it was when I was a child....?

Thanks so much for the support, guys (and Hook, Dwight was making a point, not putting me down. I know he would never do that, but thanks for being concerned) ;)

Springmom

Glockamolie
January 24, 2006, 09:33 PM
It may or may not help, but you and your sons need to come to Brian Hoffners lecture on SuperBowl Sunday. Forget football, you have other priorities. It's going to be at Jim Pruett's Guns and Ammo, 11101 Huffmeister. You can call the store to register, and it's FREE. 832-237-GUNS. It's from noon to 4pm. www.hoffners.com
I have no affiliation with Pruett's or Hoffners, except that I listen to Jim on 97.5, and Hoffner is a guest every Monday around 4 or 4:30pm. See you there!

By the way, Harris County DOES suck. I hate the traffic, the crime, etc. I want to move out of here asap.

Wisby
January 24, 2006, 09:48 PM
Thats right down the road from Ravensway where I lived

stratus
January 24, 2006, 10:15 PM
Is that your dream community ... everyone with a gun. Do you really think that would stop everyone from criminal activity ? Instead of walking up and beating up your son, the guy could have walked up and shot him. Is that better ?
Well, my dream community would be every law-abiding citizen with a gun. Regarding felons, I don't quite feel the same way. But someone who would go through the obvious hassle (especially in some states) to acquire a CCW clearly has a measure of respect for the law. I don't know about you, but the idea of a murderer breaking a sweat over carrying a concealed handgun without a permit seems like a pretty ridiculous notion.

For these reasons I very much support it being tough to get a CCW, and do not think every Tom, Dick and Harry (or Trixie, Donna, and Harriet) ought be able to carry a concealed weapon.

Could you be more specific? What are the qualifiers for people being able to carry a concealed handgun? Is screening for convicted felons not enough?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I won't. But I will say that without further clarification on your part, your statement lingers on rather thin ice in terms of the Constitution.

If you'd care to start a thread in the Legal and Political section about this, I will certainly contribute, as, I imagine, will others.

Sir William
January 24, 2006, 10:27 PM
Springmom, contact your TX Homeland Security office. Explain the entire situation to them and ask about grants for block patrols. Contact your PCT 4 Constable and discuss your options. Contact the HCDA and DO light a fire under them and keep it lit. Contact DC Bloomfield and ask him about a victims advocate and request written advisory notices concerning the case. I decided to purchase a HK91. HINT, HINT.

PythonGuy
January 26, 2006, 09:00 AM
This whole thread is like a blog, perhaps a chat forum would be better, or we could all detail our week.:cool:

GUNSMOKE45441
January 26, 2006, 09:56 AM
Tough way to live, unfortunately too many places are getting to be like that.
You need to be aware at all times, a lot of it has to do with the courts, the punks know there will probably be no punishment other than probation.
We need to take back our streets one block at a time.
Best of luck Springmom!! Stay after em.
Too many lock their doors, and hide under the bed hoping things will get better, it doesn't work that way. Stand up and be counted!!!!

springmom
January 26, 2006, 05:50 PM
....I wonder why you are the ONLY one who find this thread irrelevant?

Let's see: there was Sir William's post on setting up a Neighborhood Watch, which was in my response to a post talking about the difficulty of doing so in a patchwork of jurisdictions that are literally several blocks wide at most; there is the question of when/whether a person should carry and what training is involved....and of course there is the original article that I wrote ON MY BLOG, not reproduced here, in which I call for the arming of every eligible citizen to stop the rampant crime that is eating our society alive.

Oh, but that's only talking about my week. Doesn't measure up to your standards. So we should all just drop the thread posthaste. :barf: :barf: :barf:


Springmom

loosecannon
January 26, 2006, 06:20 PM
... not everyone can get a CCW and every applicant here in California is open to a psychological evaluation, in addition to having their full record checked.

The state of California giving people psychological evaluations? :eek: I don't know whether to laugh or to weep Hook686,( If I do either I am sure I would be disqualified by the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia for being to emotional.)

azredhawk44
January 26, 2006, 06:24 PM
Hey SpringMom:

Sorry to hear about your sons' misfortune, but very glad that everybody is alive and breathing.

Best of luck and all support and prayers possible for you and your neighborhood watch program if you decide to pursue it.

I hope your thugs meet up with a darker shadow in a darker alley and leave your neighborhood in peace.

Not to be monday morning QB, but hopefully this raises the situational awareness of your sons. The martial artist may have benefitted from paying a little more attention to the idea of "the best way to block a punch is not to be there when it comes", but he was probably blinded by the pretty lady friend he was with.

stephen426
January 26, 2006, 06:55 PM
Springmom,

About your Oprah rant on your blog... She has since recanted (http://tv.msn.com/tv/article.aspx?news=213584&GT1=7654) her support for Frey and claimed she was duped by the publisher. I still have all the respect in the world for that woman and she has helped a countless number of people.

I know this doesn't have anything to do with your bad week but it was on your blog. Sorry to go off topic.

American4guns
January 26, 2006, 07:13 PM
Damn it i cant read the story.the links wont work for me.I believe that if a person is a law abiding citizen they should not be refused a CCW in any state.
damn i wish i could have read springmoms story so i could comment on it.
I dont know if i would give the right to a 18 year old though.Generally speaking i think people that age are to impulsive.I myself would be worried having a number of people that age walking around legally armed.However there are always going to be the people that age and younger who have illegal guns.The world is a different place from when I and most of you grew up.If there was ever a time ,in my opion for legally armed citizens its now.
Springmom i kind of got the jist of what happened to your son.Glad all are ok.

garryc
January 26, 2006, 09:20 PM
**And anytime an area has an influx of new criminals, the OLD balance of criminals/turf/etc is going to get upset and you're going to see activity where it was not before, or at least that is my reasoning**
Any time a wild preditory species population grows it must occupy more territory in order to feed. It will continue growing, feeding and adapting until it reaches a physical limit.
A 45 slug, IMHO, is damned limiting!!!

springmom
January 27, 2006, 01:06 AM
Not to be monday morning QB, but hopefully this raises the situational awareness of your sons. The martial artist may have benefitted from paying a little more attention to the idea of "the best way to block a punch is not to be there when it comes", but he was probably blinded by the pretty lady friend he was with.

Azredhawk, you are certainly correct that situational awareness is important. But youngest son was sitting out in a lit neighborhood park area (in this part of the country each little neighborhood associations has its own pool and park, sometimes more than one, depending on the size of the neighborhood. He was in an area that I would not have hesitated to be in... at least, not before last Friday.

And my other son was in his car on a major east-west thoroughfare at 10:00 on a Sunday night.

They weren't in places where there should have been trouble.

OTOH, part of me wants to stamp my foot and proclaim, dammit, we pay taxes and neighborhood association fees and there is NOWHERE in my neighborhood that is public that is off limits to me because it IS my neighborhood. These vermin need to crawl back in the sewers whence they came.

A postscript: apparently several of these two-legged rats are still on the loose. The officer who came to show youngest son the mug shot photos did not think they were in custody. Very confusing, and none of it is in the online records yet to get more specifics.

Springmom

ahenry
January 27, 2006, 05:06 PM
I saw this article (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183031,00.html) on Fox News and thought of your situation Springmom.

It’s a small story so I’ll just repost it here:
Eight Katrina Refugees Arrested in Texas Murder Cases

HOUSTON — Eight Hurricane Katrina refugees who are members of rival New Orleans gangs were arrested in connection with 11 recent murders and other violent crimes, Houston police said Friday. Investigators with the newly formed Houston Police Gang Murder Squad said they are still looking for three suspects. "The safety of the city of Houston, its citizens and as well as some of the evacuees depends on us arresting these individuals as soon as possible," Police Chief Harold Hurtt said. The Houston-area crime rate spiked sharply in the last few months of 2005, and police officials have attributed some of that to Katrina refugees. The 11 suspects are also accused of aggravated robbery, kidnapping and other violent crimes. Nine of the murders happened in the city's high-crime southwest side, while the other two were in the Houston suburb of Pasadena. All the murders have occurred since November. Authorities said they believe the killings can be attributed to rival gangs who have set up shop in Houston after evacuating New Orleans following the Aug. 29 hurricane.

Eghad
January 27, 2006, 11:11 PM
Ouch.. my heart goes out to you and the family.

garryc
January 28, 2006, 09:31 AM
<< QUOTE
HOUSTON — Eight Hurricane Katrina refugees who are members of rival New Orleans gangs were arrested in connection with 11 recent murders and other violent crimes, Houston police said Friday. Investigators with the newly formed Houston Police Gang Murder Squad said they are still looking for three suspects. "The safety of the city of Houston, its citizens and as well as some of the evacuees depends on us arresting these individuals as soon as possible," Police Chief Harold Hurtt said. The Houston-area crime rate spiked sharply in the last few months of 2005, and police officials have attributed some of that to Katrina refugees. The 11 suspects are also accused of aggravated robbery, kidnapping and other violent crimes. Nine of the murders happened in the city's high-crime southwest side, while the other two were in the Houston suburb of Pasadena. All the murders have occurred since November. Authorities said they believe the killings can be attributed to rival gangs who have set up shop in Houston after evacuating New Orleans following the Aug. 29 hurricane.

It would seem to me that "saving" people who have criminal records or are affiliated \with violent gangs at the expence of the peacfull is a violation of the public trust.During Katrina, FEMA disarmed many persons and left them open to preditation by gangs. This was a willful violation of the constitutional rights of citizens.
Perhaps the persons that have been convicted of violent acts, or drug dealing if they show on the New Orleans data base, should be located and intured in closed prisons or closed military bases. For example, Orient correctional in Ohio was closed and has a capacity of about 2000. This would be a good job for private corrections under federal control. Of course private corrections, at least in Ohio, has no experiance in handling difficult inmates that they can not "cherry pick".<<Quote>>
After reconstruction, the persons should be returned to New Orleans and let the liberal government in that city handle them.
Or, perhaps, a CCC program should be set up and the persons under the above conditions would have the elective of going to inturment or working to rebuild the city.
Sending these people to areas and expecting the cities to handle the increased crime problem is just wrong.

Apple a Day
January 28, 2006, 09:48 AM
God bless you, ma'am.
An innocent question regarding the car break-ins: in Texas can't you shoot someone who is on your property at night trying to steal something?

DasBoot
January 28, 2006, 10:22 AM
Springmom,
I'm real sorry to hear about the crap you folks are going through over there.
But does it really suprise anyone?
I don't know how sensitive the staff is here to politically in-correct viewpoints, so I will be somewhat vague.
And yes! The views stated here are a GENERALIZATION, arrived at by over 50yrs of walking this planet.
There is a certain portion of our society that embraces hostility and anti-social behaviour as the norm.
Just take a look at the "music" videos to see what I mean.
Ever really "listen" to the lyrics?
They make up approx. 12% of the population, yet commit an amazing 80%+ of the violent crime!!!:eek:
Let that statistic SINK IN!
Broken homes, unwed mothers, the males impregnating as many females as they can then deserting them, welfare cheats, gang members, women who don't even know who the father of their baby is, drop-out rate, crack babies, etc, etc, etc...........!
This is the only group I've ever witnessed rioting in the streets, burning down and looting their own homes/stores and neighborhoods.
Then screaming for the government to rebuild it!
To have a criminal record is a badge of honor.
If you study hard in school, some of your peers will ridicule you as trying to be "white".
Whenever an area becomes predominantly populated by this group, the character and safety of this area inevitably declines.
In 5 years of driving a taxi in NYC, this is the ONLY group of people that tried to either rip me off, skip on the fare or just hassle me in some way.
They are at the top of most every list of societal ills you can think of.
In South Florida, AIDS cases declined across the board.
For this group, THEY DOUBLED!!!(As per a report by the Sun Sentinal)
The saddest part about this is what it does to all the beautiful, hardworking and lawful members of this group that are lumped in with all the scum.
They are a small percentage but do an ENORMOUS amount of damage in our society.
And yes, EVERY group has it's troublemakers.
This group has more than it's fair share!
Be aware Springmom.
Get that neighborhood watch going.....NOW!
These punks will usually turn tail at any real show of resistance.
They do not expect that from the rest of society.
Good luck, and again, be very aware of your surroundings.

ArcherAndShooter
January 28, 2006, 01:50 PM
Oops. Just realized that it's the hubster that's logged on. So ignore the "archerandshooter" name attached. My bad....

The punks who attacked my son were black; and the other punks who threatend my middle son were black. But that does not mean that I need to look at blacks as being more of a threat. I'm surprised that post remains on this thread, and frankly, if TFL is trying to raise the bar on grammar, we'd better raise the bar on racism too. That looks a whole lot worse to the anti groups than misspelling.

As to shooting someone trying to steal your property...yes, in Texas that is not a crime. However, I would not kill somebody over a car. I do have one shotshell in my revolver, however. If somebody is breaking into the car I have several options: call the police and wait inside (preferable, in my view), call the police and go out and confront the burglars (risky), or go out shooting. The last is, theoretically, legal, but I believe that is wrong and I could not justify that to my own conscience. I imagine that #2 might be my choice if it was the same car a third time in as many weeks! But it wouldn't be because I was making a truly "best choice" but because I was pi***d and wasn't going to let them get away with it. :mad: But with the response time in our area, especially, if I saw them at it I'd call the constables. I expect at this point they'd boogie right over....

We're getting express service these days, since we've become regular "customers" :eek:

Springmom

DasBoot
January 29, 2006, 08:53 AM
Springmom,
How did you come to infer that I was referring to blacks?
I never mentioned the word "black" in my thread.
Now who's being racist?:rolleyes:
Do you feel that the points I brought up point to one racial group?
And which point(s) in particular do you think are incorrect?
My post has NOTHING to do w/racism.
It has to do with what I have experienced and observed in the world around me for the last 50yrs.
And yes! The views stated here are a GENERALIZATION
Did you read that part?
Do you think it's just a coincidence that crime has spiked in your area since the so-called "refugees" arrived?
If I have stepped over a line here, I would appreciate the TFL staff letting me know.
Again, my post had nothing to do w/racism, just conclusions based on observation and experience.
BTW, my wife is a mix.....Columbian, Hawaiian........and black.

NukemJim
January 29, 2006, 09:09 AM
however. If somebody is breaking into the car I have several options: call the police and wait inside (preferable, in my view), call the police and go out and confront the burglars (risky), or go out shooting. The last is, theoretically, legal, but I believe that is wrong and I could not justify that to my own conscience.

+1

SpringMom, I like the way you think.

Also on other subjects as well :rolleyes:

Hope things get a whole lot better, you an your'n have had very "intersting time" as in the old Asain curse " May you live in intersting times" may your life get less "interesting".

NukemJim

springmom
January 30, 2006, 10:30 AM
No, this is not a factual update: apart from the fact that youngest son did look at mug shots late last week, no news so far.

No, this is a thank you to all of you who sent best wishes and prayers, both in public on the forum and in private emails and messages. Y'all are da bomb, as youngest son would say.

It is also to now tie this back to tactics and training. Given that this is a situation in which anybody could find themselves, but looking at it as if it were YOU and YOU WERE CARRYING (so that takes "what should Youngest Son have done" off the table for this) what, seriously, would you have done?

Keep in mind: this is a well-lighted, open place, surrounded by single-family houses. (I emphasize that because you are therefore going to have to be VERY careful IF you choose to shoot.) To the north/northeast lies a large culvert/gulch/bayou, pretty deep, because it has a bridge OVER it. This is where the young lady in question ran to. It was late evening, but 10:30 at night is not an outrageous time for people to be out on foot, especially in a residential neighborhood.

Sticking with the scenario as it happened, put yourself in there (you may add dogs if that is why you would have been out at that time of night, and the person with you might be your spouse or a lady friend). What would you do?

Springmom

Harley Quinn
January 30, 2006, 02:08 PM
Hi,
Unfortunatly as of late you are a victim, not you personally but your sons and that then includes you. For you may be having a tougher time with this then they are.
Since what has happened to the vehicle is a problem, but it is a vehicle and over that issue I am not sure you can shoot persons, unless for a reason you put yourself in harms way.

I think you are basically doing what you can regarding the beating and your son need's to understand that he is not alone. It happens all the time in this country, one of the big problems that it is always happening to someone else until it happens to you.

You live in Texas yet you call the LEO a Constable? Do you have Constable's in Texas? Does he respond to that name, or is it just a preference on your part? Just curious on that term.

Good luck, remember if you do take action it can get extremly worse for you and yours. That sounds weird but if you can let it go it will be better for all.
Tighten up on security and try not to become overwrought.
Be careful of what you say or do on the net and around your neighborhood.

Again remember it is happening to you at this point and time, it happens to thousands of people daily in America. You are not alone. Sad but true.

HQ

Derius_T
January 30, 2006, 02:34 PM
Trip20 wrote:

America is full of breeders, parents are a minority.

One of the best statements I've read in a long time.....and the saddest.

springmom
January 30, 2006, 05:37 PM
In Texas, counties have sheriffs. But larger counties, at least, have constables as well. This creates some interesting "turf" problems, that I've written about already on this thread.

FYI, in Texas one can shoot to protect property, or if one fears that one will not be able to get that property back if one lets it be stolen. (I suspect, but do not know for sure, that this is a legacy from the old "cattle rustling" days...IOW, if a steer was stolen and re-branded, it could be difficult to prove it was yours.) I would not be inclined to do this, certainly not with my home defense ammunition.

FWIW, I think there is a mindset of "victim" that one can choose to reject. These things have happened to him, but that boy is no victim. He made good judgements at the time as to how to protect himself, and we've told him that we are very proud of him (as we are). Hope that makes sense: but my sig line is a statement of intent and mindset, not a blindly foolish statement that nothing bad can happen to me. ;)

Springmom

exar
January 30, 2006, 05:44 PM
Without being in the actual scenario, it is really hard to tell what I would really do but I can try. I am a very cautious person in public which is why I even have a ccw. I am also very aware of the saftey of friends and loved ones around me. Being in a park with my girlfriend at 10:30pm, no matter how well lit will put me at an advanced level of awareness ( I have taken females out to the park late at night, so I am familiar with that aspect of the situation:). I definitley would notice an aggressive looking pack of males approaching. Keeping with your sons scenario, if the person made any threatening remarks or gestures at a distance, or even was walking a path that would bring them by me, my defense level increases even more so. If he yelled something like "Hey white boy", I would acknowledge them and ask them what they wanted from a reasonable distance. If there was no response or they continued toward me I would assume a firm and confident posture and tell them that "I don't want any trouble and you need to leave me alone now". I will assume the role of your son and say that they are going to attack me. I would reach for my .38 special, point it directly at the priority target, and if this was not enough of a deterrent I would fire at the ground,if possible,for a warning. If I thought for 1ms that there was no time for a warning and my girl's life or mine was endangered then I would not hesitate to fire directly at the assailant for a stopping shot, be it lethal or non.

gdeal
January 30, 2006, 05:48 PM
I like California State Laws: U can only shoot to protect life NOT property. I wouldn't want to end somebody's life over a material possesion like a TV. But the laws in TX to hold off cattle rustling sense to me. And when U think about it, cattle is life, not really a material possesion. Hmm... I wonder if I would be allowed to shoot someone that was going to harm my dogs.

Glockamolie
January 30, 2006, 08:41 PM
Every county (in Texas, at least) is broken down into precincts. Each precinct has a Constable, and they in turn have Deputy Constables, like a Sheriff would have. This goes back many, many years to a time where a single county would be too much ground for a Sheriff to cover, so they needed other regional agencies in the county. Smaller Constable departments generally serve civil papers and may do other law enforcement duties, but maybe not a whole lot of patrol or traffic. In larger counties, a Constable's Department may be huge, much as Pct 5 in Harris County. No matter their particular role in the county they serve, they are all sworn peace officers with equal powers of any other peace officer in the state. If you live in an unincorporated area of a county, either the Sheriff of that county or the Constable of that precinct has (overlapping) jurisdiction. Many subdivisions have it established that the Constable is on a contract and is the primary responder.

stephen426
January 30, 2006, 09:07 PM
exar,

Please don't take this response as a personal attack but rather as a critique of how you would have handled the situation. When you are dealing with a pack of thugs, the best thing is to leave if possible. You do not know if these trouble makers are armed (and we found out later that they were). You might think you are a tough guy but when you are out numbered and dealing with an unknown enemy (in this case unknown enemies).

Say you whip out your .38 special (note that no threat has yet been made and you are already breaking the breaking the law by brandishing a firearm). They can then say that you threatened them and shoot you in self defense. How many rounds does your .38 special hold? How many speed loaders do you carry? How good of a shot do you think you are? Do you really think you can scare down a pack of thugs with your gun? I'm almost willing to bet that they would taunt you and dare you to shoot them. Then any of them that are armed would draw their weapons and you would go down in a hail of bullets. You might be a lion but even a lion can get taken down by a pack of hyenas. I'm sorry but I feel you are going to get yourself killed that way. You have no backup, you are outnumbered, and you don't know your enemy. It is not a good situation.

Although this may be a blow to your pride, but the best response is to get the heck out of Dodge when you see these unsavory characters. It might be a blow to your pride, but it is way better than multiple blows to your body. Imagine if you decided to stay and be a tough guy. Say they beat the crap out of you and leave you in a heap and then proceed to rape your female companion. Your poor decision has just caused her to get raped. If those guys started chasing you, then they give you no chose but to fight. I would make as much noise as possible to attract as much attention as possible. SpringMom said there are houses nearby so the neighbors might call the cops. They might not get there right away (maybe they will since all this crap has been happening lately) but at least help should be on the way should you get the crap beat out of you and need medical attention. My point is if you leave before they get that close, you will have a head start and will be able to read their intent much sooner than if you wait around.

Good luck and I hope this post at least opens your eyes to any short comings your plan may have had.

gac009
January 31, 2006, 03:48 AM
Exar- never escalate the level of violence in a situation. No offence but your remarks lead me to believe that you have never really spent much time in a "bad" neighborhood. I have. Where I live now used to be alot better and its getting kinda bad, but its still one of the better places that Ive lived and let me tell you -

"I would assume a firm and confident posture and tell them that "I don't want any trouble and you need to leave me alone now". I will assume the role of your son and say that they are going to attack me. I would reach for my .38 special, point it directly at the priority target, and if this was not enough of a deterrent I would fire at the ground,if possible,for a warning."

Do this and all your gonna do is look sound and act SCARED, you are going to escalated the level of violence and you are challanging people that dont back down from challanges from people weaker than them. Three huge mistakes in an already dangerous situation.

Springmom, no offence this used to be a nice neighborhood, but this is for exars sake, because if he ever dose what he said he would do he will likely end up dead.

If you are going to go to the park at night, have the car pointed at the street in the right direction and stay as close to the car as possible. If a group that set off your radar enter your proximity and begin to walk twords you at night in the park, you leave. Immediatly. They can take you, they know they can take you. Thats why they travel in groups. If you are scared of them they will know it, you cant hide it even if you think you can.

If you dont have it in you to brutalise another human to the point of death then you arent at their level and they will know that too.

Be repectfull; never insult anyone in the group. Dangerous people aquire things through violence, disrepect and they will use violence to get that respect back.

In a situation where you are approached/surrounded by a gang of 2+ with or without a gun its pretty much up to them if you live or die. Alot of it is street sense, My advice to exar: stay home at night. Seriously.

exar
January 31, 2006, 10:54 AM
sorry if I gave an incorrect idea to anyone. I was trying to place myself in springmoms' sons' shoes. Everyone is correct when they say to try and leave immediately, which is what I personally would recommend and DO. I was only placing myself in the boys position where an attack is unavoidable, and you better believe if i was being assaulted that i wouldn't care how scared I might look (and probably would be if i was being attacked), I would still reach for the .38 and defend myself. If you are not willing to draw your weapon in defense, then there is no point in carrying one. Once again, sorry if i upset anyone but springmom was asking for a specific scenario and i tried to give her an idea of what someone else might do in an UNAVOIDABLE attack. BTW Memphis, Knoxville, and Louisville are my old homes and they can get rough. I'm not blind to the reality of situations and that is why i carry in the first place. If you were raised in Memphis being the only white kid on your block then you might understand where i come from.