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Jibaholic
January 23, 2006, 08:36 PM
Hiya,

I've just completed my basic pistol course so I'm still very green! One thing that I learned is that it takes a surprising amount of skill even to hit a target 15 feet away. The experienced shots (people from other states taking the course to get a Mass. permit) were fast and accurate. Us beginners were not.

How many shots have most BG's even fired? 50? 100? Are there any that would be considered good shots?

American4guns
January 23, 2006, 08:49 PM
I'm not sure how you would go about deciding if the BG is a good shot or not unless he shoots you.I preferto think that hes as good as i am and i'm not going to give him the chance to get his gun out if it is'nt already.If the BG is on me already,i submit to whatever it is he wants.I would draw my weapon only and i mean only if i had a serious chance of drawing and firing with extreme accuracy.You could'nt know the abilty of a stranger.I'm sure there are some BG's out there that have had plenty of practice.They don't do back ground checks to shoot at a range.

281 Quad Cam
January 23, 2006, 09:05 PM
For the purposes of training, and mental preparation...

The bad guy is the best shot on earth, he reads shooting journals in the bathroom, and practices point shooting coins at 25 yards in the dark.

He does 800 pushups and situps a day, and can run 2 miles in 5 minutes. His idea of a vacation is attending Ranger or SEAL training.

He is armed with the very best equipment, not that he needs it. He is skilled in several martial arts, and has extensive experience with violence. He does not hesitate, he performs.

He is not recognizable, he is ordinary. He makes time in his training for fitting in, and being dismissed by his victims. He has an average, well kept wardrobe and hairstyle. He makes small-talk on elevators. He does not threaten, he does not assault. He always gets the jump on his victims before they know whats coming.

Train for him.... Than you will be ready.

God forbid it ever happens, there is absolutely no telling who it will be, and what the extent of their training will be. Train to the best of your commitment to it...... But don't ever make the mistake of deluding yourself to believe bad guys are subpar on any level. Some people make a living by preying on others, social predators. Don't mistake poor morals for poor inteligence.

Topthis
January 23, 2006, 09:14 PM
This is a funny question...I actually laughed. Any how, I am not sure if there is a separate school for BG's to learn to shoot. If then, we would judge the marksmanship of a BG by the destruction and such that they cause, I would have to say that they are pretty good shots...we are reminded of this point when we turn on the news and hear about another shooting and the death that resulted.

garand_shooter
January 23, 2006, 09:41 PM
Misses and accidental hits in a drive by are the wheelman's fault.:eek:
Ask a silly question...

Recon7
January 23, 2006, 09:44 PM
I'm a bad guy, and I am a excellent shot.
seriously, +1 to topthis, we love to worry if 9mm or .40 etc has enough stopping power, in reality, most people who get shot by bad guys seem to get hit and killed.

Capt Charlie
January 23, 2006, 09:56 PM
Absolutely outstanding post, 281 Quad Cam!!!: :cool: Right on the mark!

It's been my experience that most gang bangers, using the officially established gangsta stance (gun hand above head, wrist at 45 degree angle, starboard side of the weapon skyward, legs not spread due to pants being down around his knees :D ), couldn't hit a bull in the a** with a bass fiddle. Their philosophy truely is, spray & pray.

Then you run into one... only one, where his brother was a SEAL and taught him a few things. It'd be my luck (and yours) to run into that only-one.

Train like 281 Quad Cam said ;) .

Nightdiver
January 23, 2006, 09:58 PM
"For the purposes of training, and mental preparation...

The bad guy is the best shot on earth, he reads shooting journals in the bathroom, and practices point shooting coins at 25 yards in the dark.

He does 800 pushups and situps a day, and can run 2 miles in 5 minutes. His idea of a vacation is attending Ranger or SEAL training.

He is armed with the very best equipment, not that he needs it. He is skilled in several martial arts, and has extensive experience with violence. He does not hesitate, he performs.

He is not recognizable, he is ordinary. He makes time in his training for fitting in, and being dismissed by his victims. He has an average, well kept wardrobe and hairstyle. He makes small-talk on elevators. He does not threaten, he does not assault. He always gets the jump on his victims before they know whats coming.

Train for him.... Than you will be ready." 281 Quad Cam

You hit this one dead center.
Never underestimate your opponent.

sdj
January 23, 2006, 10:04 PM
Excellent post! I might have to print that one out and put it up in my office cube! :)

Acegoesbang
January 23, 2006, 10:10 PM
it depends on the peson that has become bad a thug or gansta so to speak has lil experience with guns hopeing to never have to use one but to intimidate their enemys so that they will not have to use them and others who pratice with weapons with intention to are called terrorists these people have plans on killing a certian target and hopefuly getting away with it .then of course you have people who have just had enough they are ****** off at some one or something wether they have experience with guns or not thats is to be found out the hard way they could be a person with military training ,or hunter or maybe even a buissness man who has never fired a gun but never the less always keep your eyes open and be ready for anything.

Hard Ball
January 23, 2006, 10:11 PM
Most "BGs" are not very good shots. They tend to be "pray and spray" shooters.

SamD
January 23, 2006, 10:35 PM
I have only run into a couple of BG's out of hundreds, that were decent shots.
Quantify how good they were, pretty hard to do. They were good enough to shoot me so I guess that's good enough.:mad: Then again I'm still here:cool:

Sam

Recon7
January 23, 2006, 10:38 PM
remember the DC sniper he was a BG, and a pretty good shot too.

Shawn Dodson
January 23, 2006, 11:03 PM
I agree with 281QC. The bad guy is at least as good as you think you are, and probably better. He's going to use ambush tactics to surprise you and put you at a time-competitive disadvantage.

Topthis
January 23, 2006, 11:08 PM
So, the unanimous choice is...BG's are good shots. Yes, I agree!

Ronny
January 23, 2006, 11:28 PM
How good of a shot are most BG's?

Good enough to kill you.

DTakas
January 24, 2006, 10:29 AM
I disagree in part. I definitely think you should train for and be prepared to engage and beat the hypothetical bad guy described above. But in reality bad guys will probably be bad shots. The average cop probably shoots more often than most BGs and in all honesty the average cop is not a perticurally good marksman.
To illustrate what I’m saying, when room clearing or tactically moving through a house you should not approach a corner shoulders against the wall and move as close to the corner as possible and then spin around the edge like you see in the movies sometimes. Good tactical sources say to keep as much distance as possible between you and the corner. The reason for this is that the bad guy is probably not a good shot and you are because of all your detected training (this is assuming you are trained to be better than most, which, if you are serious about defending your life you should be). The distance makes him more likely to miss you and because you’re good the distance isn’t such a factor for you. Of course this isn’t going to mean he can’t hit you it just does a little more to help keep you from getting shot and when we’re talking about your life every little bit is important.
Train for the absolute worst and you’ll be prepared to handle almost any situation. Think of it like a professional fighter who is constantly training to fight matches against UFC pros. Then some night a punk tries to beat him up outside a bar for, lets say, looking at his girl friend the wrong way. Who’s gonna win? The guy who’s been training to beat the pros, but not only will he win he’ll walk away cracking his knuckles thinking “that was easier than I expected.”
It’s only easy and the bad guys are only bad shots in comparison to your abilities. If you aren’t prepared for the extreme you won’t be better in comparison. I think the real issue is not how good are they, it’s how much better are you.

BlueTrain
January 24, 2006, 10:45 AM
The biggest advantage the bad guy has over the good guy is his willingness to do things. The good guy has inhibitions to overcome before he can defend himself, usually, and generally speaking, the bad guy has none of these inhibitions. You could also say there is a killer instinct present.

It has been said that the average bad guy could kill someone, then go home and sleep soundly. But when a policeman is involved in a shooting, he is a mental wreck for a month. And besides that, his department suspends him for a week to make the investigation, which can't help matters.

It has also been said that the average policeman is a much better shot than his opponent and usually comes out OK in a gunfight (such things happen), yet in a place like D.C., and now also in Prince George's County, Maryland, just over the line, there are plenty of successful shooting, shall we say, every year. Not gunfights, mind you, just shootings.

pax
January 24, 2006, 10:53 AM
He doesn't have to be good; he only has to be lucky.

You have to be good. You can't count on being lucky, since if he attacks you, well, you obviously aren't having a lucky day.

pax

Glenn E. Meyer
January 24, 2006, 10:59 AM
This has been studied - damned if I can remember the source now, someone might - but it's one on police hits and BG hits in close range gun fights.

BGs hit more - one reason is that they had the element of surprise and were quite close.

It's really too complicated a question to generalize. Some departments have great records, some are crappy. There are differences in training and personnel.

Close up and it doesn't take much to hit but you do see massive fire fights with very low hits.

I wouldn't take it for granted that you are better shot than anybody, esp. if most incidents are close up.

KC135
January 24, 2006, 11:00 AM
Armed and Considered Dangerous is a study by Wright and Rossi. This study was done in prisons and the interview people were long term convicts.

Among the subjects was their gun knowledge, training, and when they carried, what they carried, and how they planned to use their guns. Sources of guns and ammo, etc. A long read, but great information.:D

JohnLizCas
January 24, 2006, 11:22 AM
Go to www.plusp.com for a look. John

Double Naught Spy
January 24, 2006, 11:33 AM
Well DTakas, you would be one of those who underestimates your opponent because of a gross generalization that simple can't be counted on to be representative of the sampling of bad guys you are dealing with in a given situation.

281 Quad Cam's point is very good. You have to assume they are excellent shots and treat the situation appropriately. As noted, they may not be good shots, but they can still be lucky shots. So the question of whether or not they are good shots is immaterial.

I think it is short sighted to base a lot of self defense-related issues on the percentages of historical events. Historical events are mutually exclusive from the event you are in. When you encounter a bad guy, it isn't that you have a 95% chance that he is a crappy shot and 5% that he is a good shot as evidenced by the large numbers of bad shot bad guys out there. At best, the odds are 50-50 that he is a good shot. Its binary and it does not matter what type a shot he is relevant to the rest of the bad guy population as you are only dealing with this guy, not the whole population. Whether or not the rest of the bad guy population is good or bad shots has no bearing on his skills. Once again, it is mutually exclusive. So at best for you, odds are 50-50 he is a good shot. At worst, he is 100% a good shot.

As a park ranger commented on grizzly attacks of hunter in our national parks, he said the incidents were quite low, something like one attack for every 250,000 hunters or hunting excursions, but when a grizzly is attacking you it is 100%. In other words, the 1 in 250k sounds good until it is you who is being chomped on by a bear, then the stats don't matter.

In following up with some of the ideas already expressed, the bad guy does not have to be a good shot. He is not encumbered with being bothered by the legal hassles of shooting a bystander. So he is free to spray and pray. As a good guy, you need to be a good shot and you do care if you hit a bystander..

If you want to put faith into the percentages and go with the notion that most bad guys are bad shots, then why not apply the percentages across the board. Chances are that at any given time, you will not be attacked by a bad guy. If you are attacked, chances are you won't have to draw your gun or won't be able to draw your gun. If you are able to draw your gun, chances are you won't have to shoot your gun. So at any given time, the odds are nearly zero that you will need to shoot your gun in self defense, so why carry a gun?

You carry a gun because even though the odds are hugely in your favor, you know that there is still the potential that you may need it. My guess is that the odds are much higher that the bad guy you encounter will be a good shot, even higher if you add in those who end up as lucky shots, than the odds of you having to deploy and shoot your gun.

And what is a good shot? The bad guy may not be a good enough shot to pass the shooting qualifications for a concealed handgun permit, but he can probably hit you 9 times out of 10 at mugging distance and mugging distance is about half the distance or less of the shortest distance used in Texas CHL shooting qualifications (which is 3 yards).

Derius_T
January 24, 2006, 11:55 AM
281 Quad Cam, great post.

The most vital thing to remember about a BG, IMHO, is that he is indeed a Bad Guy. He has his mind set on violence, robbery, murder, ect. and is most likely experienced at it. He does not care who gets hurt or how bad, as long as its not him. He only cares about carrying out his task, with the least amount of personal risk to self. Make no mistake, this is a very dangerous mindset, and makes for a very dangerous opponent....

Weeg
January 24, 2006, 12:17 PM
Only a fool underestimates


:rolleyes:

MK11
January 24, 2006, 12:29 PM
Proximity negates skill. If a bad guy targets you specifically, he's going to be so close (like in an elevator) that marksmanship is a lesser concern than tactics (and no, I'm not saying marksmanship isn't important). Can you recognize the threat before if gets that close? If it is that close, can you deal with it? Tight, slowly fired groups at 25 yards won't help much in that situation.

Knowing how to punch is only one component of a fist fight. Knowing how to shoot is only one component of a gun fight.

araebisu
January 24, 2006, 12:35 PM
The bad guy is the best shot on earth, he reads shooting journals in the bathroom, and practices point shooting coins at 25 yards in the dark.

He does 800 pushups and situps a day, and can run 2 miles in 5 minutes. His idea of a vacation is attending Ranger or SEAL training.

He is armed with the very best equipment, not that he needs it. He is skilled in several martial arts, and has extensive experience with violence. He does not hesitate, he performs.

He is not recognizable, he is ordinary. He makes time in his training for fitting in, and being dismissed by his victims. He has an average, well kept wardrobe and hairstyle. He makes small-talk on elevators. He does not threaten, he does not assault. He always gets the jump on his victims before they know whats coming.

Train for him.... Than you will be ready.

isnt that the guy from american psycho?


remember the DC sniper he was a BG, and a pretty good shot too.

not really, he wasnt really much of a sniper, the media just labeled him as one. didnt really do as much damage as he could have either (thank god). most of his victims were just wounded, as i recall

pickpocket
January 24, 2006, 04:26 PM
He doesn't have to be good enough to kill you, only lucky enough to hit you :)

That said, don't train to some dreamt-up specs of an imaginary BG....train to push your limits and develop your skills.

sirlonewolf
January 24, 2006, 06:59 PM
My career has led me to the firing range more frequently than most. I am on the range at least two or three times a week. I instruct and train law enforcement officers both veterans and rookies. The sad thing that I see is that most of them only shoot once or twice a year during a departmental required requalification round. Now I am sure that a lot of the bad guys are shooting much more than that. As most of you will testify when it comes to shooting, practice makes perfect. How many times have I had the priviledge (yeah right) to have a veteran street officer on the range and have to give him basic pointers on shooting? To me that is so sad. I realize this forum is made up of every God fearing, gun toting, red blooded American that has the guts to stand up for our second amendment. But take a second and ask yourself, how many times do I actually go to the range and work on just basic shooting principles. Once maybe twice a month? A couple times a week? Gee maybe I shoud start a thread with this question. The more often you shoot the more instinctive it becomes. Instinct works well in most situations of survival. I also have to opportunity to see the hardest criminals in society once they are imprisioned. I can truthfully say that most of them are quite stupid, timid and scared. I can't see them being any different on the street when they were committing their crimes. Except for the fact that all of their fortitude and feeling of formidability was due to the neatly stacked rounds in the magazine of whatever gun they had just stolen from one of us. So think about the bad guy who is armed. Remember he is also scared and stupid. That is a bad combination against the untrained civilian.

Mannlicher
January 24, 2006, 07:05 PM
From reading reports in the news, it seems like the bad guys are not well trained. Their shooting is slightly worse than that of trained LEOs. At least they dont festoon themselves in 'tactical gear' like SOME folks do. :)

OneInTheChamber
January 24, 2006, 07:22 PM
There is no difference in the trauma between a well aimed shot and a lucky shot.

I'd prefer to go into it with the mindset that I can't lose. Confidence is key. If you think you might lose, you will lose.

Plus one on what 281 said though. .... "Sweat now or bleed later".

k9lwt
January 24, 2006, 07:26 PM
There was some study done (maybe the above mentioned book was involved) that I was told about at a class some time ago. The study revealed that many of the deadly force bad guy interviews revealed that many of the bad guys studied disarming techniques, defensive tactics, and fired more rounds than an average officer per year.

The point is to never underestimate your opponent unless you want to lose (and probably die).

swmike
January 24, 2006, 07:49 PM
Some BG's are Good, Some are Lucky, and on the worst day of your life they are Good and Lucky.

When someone is "tossing rounds" at you, do you care if they are good? At that point all that matters is how good your cover is and how well YOU react. Hopefully you can be Good, Lucky, or ---

Mikeyboy
January 24, 2006, 07:55 PM
I guess it depends, a BG could be completely green and never fired his weapon ever or the BG could be someone who had military training and is a closet gun nut that could have been an IDPA champ. My worry is the luck of the draw...even a young green BG holding his "piece" sideways can get you with a lucky shot and kill you dead.

Shawn Dodson
January 24, 2006, 08:16 PM
Consider this: Michael Carneal, the fourteen-year old boy who walked into a Paducah school and opened fire on a prayer group meeting that was breaking up, never moved his feet during his rampage. He never fired far to the right or left, never far up or down. He simply fired at everything that popped up on his "screen." It is not natural to fire once at each target. The normal, almost universal, response is to fire at a target until it drops and then move on to the next target. But most video games condition participants to fire at each target only once, hitting as many targets as possible, as quickly as possible in order to rack up a high score. It's awful to note that of Michael Carneal's eight shots, he had eight hits, all head and upper torso, three dead and one paralyzed. And this from a kid who, prior to stealing that gun, had never shot a real handgun in his life.

Stop Teaching Our Kids to Kill
Grossman and DeGaetano

rmt22
January 24, 2006, 08:16 PM
I currently have a client charged w/ murder. I believe what a BG lacks in training he make ups for w/ the "nothing to live for" mentality.

I think a cop vs BG advantage goes to the cop if he takes his job seriously.

BG vs gun toting citizen the advantage goes to BG. IMO

BG are NOT going to hesitate and consider the consequence of pulling the trigger.

When you are NOT LEO it is VERY different toting a gun. I am NEVER at ease when I am toting a gun. When I see the posts on here by non-LEO I wonder if they REALLY could take out BG and if they do what would be the consequences. Will a district attorney review the facts and decide whether to indict?

It is a VERY complex decision to shoot BG.

Deaf Smith
January 24, 2006, 10:52 PM
Most criminals that use weapons decide before the fact they are going to use it. The ranges they fire are very close. So between having already deciding to shoot and close range, their skill level need not be high.

A LEO or civilian with CCW knows they can get in big trouble if things go wrong and someone is hurt, plus they have to react to a criminials overt act. That complicates things hugely.

The typical criminal is not a good shot, they don't go to IPSC or IDPA or tactical classes. Oh, they usually know which end of the gun the bullet shoots out, and at 4 yards or less they don't have to be good anyway.

The main trouble is most good guys are at 'O' of OODA, while the criminal is at 'D' or 'A', as in Decision or Action. Winning while behind the curve is a hard way to win. That is what the color code is about. Always stay in Yellow and keep aware, least you be caught in 'Observe' while the criminal is at 'Action' of the decision making cycle.

pickpocket
January 25, 2006, 01:05 AM
Been a long time since I've seen a reference to the OODA-loop...

:)

STLRN
January 25, 2006, 09:16 AM
You also have to take into account the physiological and psychological effects of people under the fight or flight effect.

Here is an bullets excerpted from a class Marines are given
"EFFECTS OF A GUNFIGHT: PHYSICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL

Factors Involved
Combat Mind Set
Leadership
Training Level
Confidence
Personal Experience
Physical Conditioning
Fatigue: Mental/Physical
Camaraderie
Sense of Duty/Honor
Recognizing/ID Threat
Proximity to Gunfight
Intensity of the Gunfight

The Presence of Fear
Fear Effects Everyone Differently:
Three Types of Fear:
Fear of Death
Fear of Killing
Fear of Failure to Perform

Stages of Fear
Basic Fear
Panic
Hysteria/Lock-Up

Controlling Fear
Fear can be Contagious and Progressive
Fear cannot be conquered, but it can be controlled
Redirect Fear by turning it into Anger, Rage, Hatred and Violence.
“When flight is not an option, identifying and hating an enemy has evolutionary value for survival.”

Physical Effects
Going into the Gunfight:
Difficulty Breathing
Heart Rate Goes Up
Adrenaline Starts Pumping

“Calm Breeds Calm, Fear Breeds Fear!”

AT SOME POINT FEAR COULD & SHOULD TURN INTO ANGER!!

Physical Effects
When Shooting Starts:
Chemical Cocktail:
Adrenaline
Cortisol
Dopamine
Blood diverts from extremities to large muscles.
Loss of Dexterity and fine Motor Skills


Tachypsychia:
Eyes Dilate
Tunnel Vision
Auditory Exclusion
Blood Vessels in Ears dilate
Nausea
Time/Space Distortion
Things Slow Down

Physical Effects
Heart Rate:
60/80 BPM is Normal
300 BPM has been recorded
200 BPM has been recorded sustained
115-145 BPM is Optimum Combat Performance
At 145 BPM Complex Motor Skills Go Down
At 175 BPM Gross Motor Skills Go Down

Physical Effects
Heart Rate of 175 BPM
Fore Brain Shuts Down and Mid Brain Takes Over
Mid Brain does only four things: Fight/Flight/Eat/Sex
Mid Brain sends signal for perseverance shooting…shoot until it works (NSR)
All senses but vision shuts down
(Touch, Taste, Smell, Hearing, 6th sense)

Physical Effects
Out of 10 Shooters expect:
9 to have auditory exclusion
2 to hear intensified sounds
8 to move on auto pilot
6 to have higher vision of clarity
1 to experiences paralysis
2 to have memory distortion
2 to experience the world moving in fast motion
4 to experience intrusive/distractive thoughts (family, loved ones)

Effects on the Shooter
Shoot Faster & Less Accurate
Will Think & Perform Tasks with less Accuracy
Experience Some or Complete Memory Loss
Experience Loss of Feeling:
Pain may or may not be felt
Denial
Altered Decision Making Process
Do things never done or been trained to do

Remember
Learn to fight out of intent and will, not out of panic and fear
Order and Simplification are the first steps towards mastery of survival
Focus on Ability, not Vulnerabilities.
Focusing on vulnerabilities will cause fear.
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO RISE TO THE OCCASION, YOU ARE GOING TO DEFAULT TO YOUR LEVEL OF TRAINING!!!

Weeg
January 25, 2006, 11:09 AM
You guys who underestimate Bad guys...


More power to ya


:(

NDTerminator
January 25, 2006, 03:04 PM
In my experience, the average criminal is a pretty lousy pistolero. As you pointed out, it takes some skill to hit a target with a handgun. To be perfectly honest, I'm much more afraid of a bad guy with an edged weapon than one with a handgun. With a knife, they don't need a lot of skill to ruin your day, all they have to do is get close.

Shotguns & rifles are a different story. Just about anyone can employ either very effectively with little practice or know how.

Don't take any of the above to mean I patrol around underestimating the dirtbags. What I do is keep tactical awareness at all times, and give myself some reactionary gap when dealing with them...

RioShooter
January 25, 2006, 04:57 PM
pax wrote:

He doesn't have to be good; he only has to be lucky.

I agree. A LEO was killed last year, while chasing a BG, by a 60 foot shot that entered his body under his raised arm, through an opening in his body armor.:(

delta58
January 25, 2006, 06:01 PM
281 makes an excellent point, you never know who the bad guy will be. I served in the Army with guys that easily had the potential to be BG's that would be very nasty to deal with. Training will tip the scales possibly in your favor but as I have said before and have heard others say the real battle is between your ears. You have to decide under what circumstances you will use your weapon before you need it, especially if you are not an LEO. The BG may have trained at a camp in Syria or Iran. He may have been trained by some western countrys Spec Ops guys gone merc :eek: . You never know.

Capt Charlie
January 25, 2006, 07:00 PM
He may have been trained by some western countrys Spec Ops guys gone merc . You never know.
Remember the bank robbers in the N. Hollywood shootout. They weren't your average BG's.

NDTerminator
January 26, 2006, 10:01 AM
Very good point. I think it's reasonable to expect, given the number of Gulf War (both 1 & 2) vets with combat experience, and accepting that a certain number are bad actors or have mental problems, that there are going to be more bad guys with above average tactical and weapons skills floating around these days...

stephen426
January 26, 2006, 10:26 AM
Its sad to say but I've seem some pretty shadey characters (really looked like a bunch of thugs) at some ranges I have gone to. Some Bad Guys DO PRACTICE!!! I was shooting much better than them but I consider myself an above average shot. I'm not sure where most police officers train but it must not be at the ranges I go to. Either that or they go during normal working hours so I never see them. I also think some departments have their own ranges.

Not to beat a dead horse but Quad 281 hit the nail on the head. Never underestimate your enemy and always train hard so that you will be better than them. Prepare yourself mentally so you won't hesistate at a critical moment and do what it takes to protect yourself and your loved ones. Another thing is know when to draw and when to comply. Unless you are John Wayne, you have little chance of drawing from concealment and shooting a bad guy who already has his gun trained on you.

FirearmFan
January 26, 2006, 10:30 AM
Living here in Philly I can guarantee that the bad guys are not as skilled in shooting but they play the cards in their favor to be more accurate and get hits. We have had 23 people shot this year and it's only Jan. 26th. The bad guys here get close and spray and pray. Any way you look at it, if he's using a 15 round 9mm chances are he is going to hit. For that reason I believe you can never underestimate them. All you have to do is walk down the street in some neighborhoods and you feel the eyes of the wolf looking upon you weighing pros and cons all the time.

MEDDAC19
January 26, 2006, 10:46 AM
I would have to say that the average BG is comparable to the average good guy. That being said, my past experiences in the Army and in the world clearly show, that most would easily fit in the bad shot catagory.

At ranges and in the field I cannot believe just how poor some people, (who are often called good shots), actually shoot. I have hunted with state police, city police, and strike force personnel, who don't shoot that well, some are darn right horrible. Many of my fellow soldiers only shot when required to requalify and then barely could pass the requirements.

The difference between firing at targets and firing at people is more than most can imagine. When you have had an adrenaline dump to your system it causes a multitude of effects. Just look at what happens to hunters every year, it has a name...buck fever.

I admit that even I don't practice as often as I should. This all means nothing though when you are confronted by a BG weilding a gun. As we all know Mr. Murphy and his law has a good chance of intervening and when he does it usually isn't a good outcome.

guntotin_fool
January 26, 2006, 11:19 AM
well the one who shot me was 3 feet away, close enough for me to see the hammer fall, how good of a shot do you need to be at that range....

k9lwt
January 26, 2006, 08:48 PM
guntontin,

Glad you're still around-was luck on your side, or was he/she just a bad shot?

Lycanthrope
January 26, 2006, 11:39 PM
Yes, criminals tend to be bad...but lucky shots....

Would you rather be good or lucky?

I'm currently striving for both......

pickpocket
January 26, 2006, 11:57 PM
Depends...if I'm getting shot AT then I'd rather be lucky...

If I'm doing the shooting I'd go for Good.

Ares45
January 28, 2006, 01:46 PM
Lee Malvo, Columbine H.S., JKF, Reagan attempt. The attempted assassination of Truman at the Blair House by two PuertoRican nationals armed with semi-auto 9mm pistols killed or wounded a half dozen secret service agents before they were put down. Two of the agents were expert marksman and competetion pistol shooters.

All impressive shooting by mostly amateurs . The Reagan attempted assassination especially. John W. Hinckley Jr., by all accounts had no previous firearms training and took on a dozen well trained secret service agents and a crowd of police and reporters. With a six shot revolver he hit: POTUS in the lung, 1 SS agent, 1 police officer, and of course Jim Brady.

Never underestimate your opponent. Ever. Sometimes they just get lucky.

KNJoe
January 31, 2006, 03:19 AM
Many wonderful points have been made, I don't think there's any more to say on the subject of opinion.

Only posting here to throw out some numbers. Last year, known American civilian crimescenes revealed a 2/11 proficiency by the so-called 'bad guy' and only 5/11 by LEO, at an average of ten metres. I'm not sure whether I can post detailed studies of military happenstance, so I won't.

Nice thread.

BigFunWMU
January 31, 2006, 03:31 AM
I am a strong believer in good luck through good planning. Also, I assume that anyone who points a gun at me in a threatening manner (as opposed to idiocy, which is another matter; shot at vs yelled at...alot), knows how to use it.


That said, my control over my luck is limited at best. My control over my skill level is much greater. If the BG makes a decision to put my life in danger, and I decide to end that danger, I would really like to stop him before he hurts me. The better my skill is, the less luck I need to do that.