PDA

View Full Version : stopping power COM: only shotguns (slug and/or buckshoot) drop wild boar instantly


Para Bellum
January 22, 2006, 11:48 AM
A friend of mine is an avid hunter and shared his experience with me recently.

Some days ago he and some hunting-pals were hunting for wild boar and shot some 30 of them. None of them had a rifle so they used their shotguns with mostly slugs ("brenneke") and twice also buckshot. Each boar dropped on the spot, all where hit in the body, none in the head.

From this and other experiences he told that no rifle-hit to the body, no matter whether .308, .300WinMag or .223 ever dropped any game he shot or has seen being shot. They all ran away, some far, some not so far but no animal was stopped. Not even with heart- or lung hits.

That's why he aims for the neck or head with rifles and that always dropped all game he hit there with rifles too. For defense he'd only rely on shotguns.

He doesn't even think of using any handgun whatsoever against any game.

What are your thought's / experiences?

CraigJS
January 22, 2006, 11:59 AM
I saw a television show years ago about Big Game hunters in Africa.. Their prefered weapon to use when going after wounded Lions or Tigers in brush was the shotgun with slugs!! Good enough for me!

Double Naught Spy
January 22, 2006, 02:30 PM
Some days ago he and some hunting-pals were hunting for wild boar and shot some 30 of them. None of them had a rifle so they used their shotguns with mostly slugs ("brenneke") and twice also buckshot. Each boar dropped on the spot, all where hit in the body, none in the head.

From this and other experiences he told that no rifle-hit to the body, no matter whether .308, .300WinMag or .223 ever dropped any game he shot or has seen being shot. They all ran away, some far, some not so far but no animal was stopped. Not even with heart- or lung hits.

Sorry, but sounds like garbage. What was his explanation for why shotguns produce the instant drops where as no other rifles will? How is it those calibers can drop deer in their tracks but not hogs? How come other hunters report instant drops with those calibers on hogs?

If you check this forum and others, you will find several accounts of non-cranial shots producing instant hog drops.

How is it your buddy and friends got 30 instant drops with shooting shotguns and no animals running off but other hunters don't seem to have the same luck?

What sounds like garbage is the definitiveness of the reports and an all or none absolutist account. All 30 pigs were dropped instantly with a shotgun via a body shot but no rifles have ever done that in his experience.

And if you check here and on other forums, you will find accounts of shotgun NOT producing instant drops with non-cranial shots.

FirstFreedom
January 22, 2006, 02:42 PM
Yep, it's BS. Your friends are absolutely correct that hitting game in COM with a rifle round, even with heart/lung shots, does NOT always, and in fact, not usually, result in instant drops. There's enough oxygen left in the blood for them to run at least 30-50 yds before dropping, even with a heart or double lung shot, when combined with adrenaline. True of deer, hogs, younameit. But the fact is that using shotguns slugs is not very different at all in terms of the physiology involved. Sure, it's quite possible that you get a few more instantaneous drops with a shotgun because of the wide diameter of the bullet passing through the vitals, and the resulting massive shock to the system. But they're not ALL going to drop instantly. For 30 in a row to drop instantly is about a few million to 1 chance. So unless your friends win the lotto each month, they are lying, IMO. Dropping instantly is an as-yet-not-fully-understood phenomenon. It can happen with a .44 magnum on a cape buff, and not happen with a .300 rem ultra mag on a little doe. Some think it has to do with whether the heart beat of the animal coincides perfectly with the hit, but I don't buy this either. I think it has to do with the general level of alertness/wariness of the animal, which can result in adrenaline being released faster and in more quantity than if the animal is non-chalantly going about its life when shot. Still, if the slugs drop them more often than a rifle, then by all means, that's a good reason to use it. It just ain't 100%. No way, IMO. Unless MAYBE they were all little baby piglets.

mete
January 22, 2006, 02:56 PM
I agree - tall tales !! As for going after something like a leopard - buckshot may not penetrate heavy muscles even at close range, so slugs are bettter .However a rifle with it's higher velocity will have great effects on the nervous system so take a rifle !!

Death from Afar
January 22, 2006, 03:06 PM
I totally agree. Buck shot is tricky stuff and if you shoot within the magic range range whereby the pattern still holds together its great. Once you fire outside that range, and the shot "lets go" and the patterns open right out, its no good. Until I knew this, I happilly used buckhot on a wallabies and goats and lost a few animals- now I know why...

Twycross
January 22, 2006, 03:34 PM
He may well have the right idea, but the "never" and "always" stuff is usually BS, as I think this is.

Charles S
January 22, 2006, 04:18 PM
None of them had a rifle so they used their shotguns with mostly slugs ("brenneke") and twice also buckshot.

I have some experience with hunting hogs and I will state with absolute certainty that buckshot will not reliably stop a large hog. I know the last hog I shot I shot twice with 3 inch 00 buckshot from a Remington 1187. Both shots were excellent placement. One shot in the neck one shot in the head at 9 yards. They did not stop the animal. The animal gave very little indication he had been shot. The final shot was in the head with a 357 Magnum 145 Winchester Silver tip. The results were instantaneous, a stop. The hog I shot was not a particularly large hog.

My experiences certainly do not correlate with theirs.

Any large caliber rifle will produce rapid incapacitation in a hog. I have had excellent results with a 270, 30-06, 300 WSM and 300 Win Mag.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33200&d=1135884406


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33199&d=1135884374

Charles

Fremmer
January 22, 2006, 05:11 PM
"told that no rifle-hit to the body, no matter whether .308, .300WinMag or .223 ever dropped any game he shot or has seen being shot. They all ran away, some far, some not so far but no animal was stopped. Not even with heart- or lung hits"

I've never hunted hog. But if he is asserting that a deer which is shot with a good lung-shot while using a .308 or a .30-06 will never drop and will always run away, I would say...

HOGWASH!

:D Sorry folks, I couldn't resist.

Foxman
January 22, 2006, 07:25 PM
CraigJS
"I saw a television show years ago about Big Game hunters in Africa.. Their prefered weapon to use when going after wounded Lions or Tigers in brush was the shotgun with slugs!!" Good enough for me!
Television show was BS too, they generally use large shot not slugs! because they are likely to be charged by the wounded cat at short range SSG is one favorit. Also tigers live in India/ Asia not Africa.
A good book from Amazon that will tell you the real story is called " The White Hunters" by Brian Herne who is still to this day a PH in Africa, you will find it a fascinating read.

Boarhunter
January 23, 2006, 10:01 AM
Para Bellum,

As one who has killed a fair number of very large Russian hogs and observed others kill many, many more, I am calling bs on the conclusion your buddies have apparently reached regarding the ineffectiveness of non-slug projectiles on hogs.

I will be the first to concede that hogs are built like tanks, extremely tough to put down, and generally foul of temperament when injured (frankly, all of those qualities are what endear hog-hunting to me, personally). But they are not invincible, nor is a slug the only projectile that puts them down convincingly. A .308 will do it, as will any other similarly-powerful rifle cartridge. As will the more powerful handgun cartridges. The key is deep penetration, coupled with accurate shot placement. That combination will do the trick as well as a shotgun slug. I know. I have done it often and seen others do it lots of times.

Even with a shotgun slug (or a powerful rifle cartridge or a magnum handgun cartridge), there is no guarantee the hog will drop in its tracks, even with deep penetration and accurate shot placement. It can happen; but then again, it may not happen. Hunting hogs is not mathematics. There are no guarantees of results, but a powerful rifle cartridge or a magnum handgun cartridge is capable of achieving results (i.e., one-shot kill) similar to that of a slug.

I think your buddies are embellishing a bit.

Boarhunter

Art Eatman
January 23, 2006, 10:46 AM
I've hit a fair number of deer with heart shots. .243, .270, and .30-'06. Many of them instantly dropped and then got up and ran some 25 to 50 yards before flopping over dead. Some just dropped and stayed there.

I often wonder if some of these "heart shot" stories were indeed hits to the heart, or just sorta close by it.

Separately, sorta, I have a real strong opinion that any bullet that disrupts the spinal cord is a one-time event. :)

Art

Pointer
January 23, 2006, 11:15 AM
I saw a television show years ago about Big Game hunters in Africa.. Their prefered weapon to use when going after wounded Lions or Tigers in brush was the shotgun with slugs!! Good enough for me!

+1 And bears too!

no rifle-hit to the body

OBVIOUSLY a .458 or .460 is about the same size as a 12ga. slug!!!

NOT TO MENTION the powerful .378, .375, .338/.340, all big bores.

Either they've been miss-quoted, or they're full of crap...

With the right bullet-type, 165 grains or bigger... they'll drop JUST as easily with a rifle.

Death from Afar
January 23, 2006, 03:06 PM
One of my mates is a very good pig hunter, and uses either a .222 (!!) or a .357 Lever gun. He kills a LOT of pigs- maybe 200 a year. Its marksmanship that matters more than fire power.

Para Bellum
January 24, 2006, 10:45 AM
Garbage.... BS....
that's why I asked you guys what you'd think.... I'd even rely on a .223 + P ("P" stands for Placement in my language :D )

Mannlicher
January 24, 2006, 07:26 PM
goofy, just plain goofy

Bigoledude
February 6, 2006, 01:26 AM
Down here in SE Louisiana we mostly bait for hogs. This method usually brings 'em in pretty close (usually within 25 yards). We've mostly used "0" and "00" buckshot applied to the neck region.

Between my 4 sons and the guys we hunt with, we've probably taken over a hundred hogs in the last 15 years or so. Not one buckshot neck-shot hog ever ran off.

After reading all these BS accusations aimed at Para Bellum's podnah I called the guys to collect some info. The young men could not remember any hogs running off after being shot in the neck with buckshot.

The only time we tried slugs was through a smoothbore shotgun using slugs designed for a rifled barrel. The results were predictable. The young fella said he couldn't even determine where they were impacting.

Now, I personally have shot some hogs out to a hundred yards with my 30-06 using Sierra's 165 grain HP Gameking. Most dropped, some ran a short way and then piled up. Same story with the 7 Mag.

I just don't see where it's hard to believe that an animal would drop instantly when plastered in the shoulder/neck/head area with 8 or 9 .33 caliber projectiles doing about 1300 to 1400 fps. And inside 25 yards!

I mean some spin around on the ground for a minute maybe. But, none of us could remember any hogs taking even a couple of steps after being buckshot.

H&H,hunter
February 6, 2006, 02:56 PM
I have killed lots of hogs with rifles and shotguns with both slugs and buckshot.

Buckshot is the most unreliable killer of hogs of anything I've ever used.

Here's my take on this.

I've seen prefectley hit hogs drop to shot with rifles of just about ever caliber from a .223 to a .470NE.

I've seen prefectly hit hogs drop to the shot with slugs buckshot and pistol bullets.

I've seen perfectly hit hogs run for an unbelivably long time after being hit with any of the above mentioned items.

Last year my buddy Tim shot two hogs with his .458 Lott using 500gr soft nose hornandy bullets. He hit both of them perfectly in the sweet spot both of them ran for some distance on over 100 yards before giving it up.

I watched a guy completley B-slap a hog to the ground with a 45gr .223 round last week with a shoulder shot. (of course the hog did get up and run but the next 15 rounds were a bit rough on him.;) )

The moral of the story is sometimes they fall over sometimes they don't you simply can't make an always or never staement when it comes to hunting.

EXAMPLE,

This PAC (problem Animal Control) elephant went almost straight to the ground after receiving a 500 gr solid from a .470NE.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/Nzou1.jpg


These two hog were shot with the same rifle and load as the elephant. The bigger one ran over 200 yards after taking a 500gr .475 bullet through both lungs. The smaller one did a major dirt nap on the spot.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y187/GTAllyn/Hogsdogsdoubleswebready1.jpg

Does this prove that hogs are tougher than elephants? Nope just that sometimes things go right down sometimes they don't.

Pointer
February 6, 2006, 03:22 PM
parabellum

.223 would do it, BUT use only the strongest bullet construction for safety reasons... :)

youp
February 6, 2006, 03:34 PM
IMO most experienced hunters have a story or two about a heart shot animal taking off for a hundred or so yards.... and the next one taken with the same load, same range piles right up. I don't think anyone can explain it, it just happens. From my experiences if a whitetail takes off hard and low after the shot, it is a heart or lung shot with no major bones hit. He will be waiting for you in a hundred yards or so. Might be a hundred or two more if the bullet did not mushroom properly.

Charles S
February 6, 2006, 04:49 PM
Down here in SE Louisiana we mostly bait for hogs. This method usually brings 'em in pretty close (usually within 25 yards). We've mostly used "0" and "00" buckshot applied to the neck region.

Between my 4 sons and the guys we hunt with, we've probably taken over a hundred hogs in the last 15 years or so. Not one buckshot neck-shot hog ever ran off.

After reading all these BS accusations aimed at Para Bellum's podnah I called the guys to collect some info. The young men could not remember any hogs running off after being shot in the neck with buckshot.

Bigoledude

You obviously have much more experience with buckshot than I do....At this point I have shot one boar with buckshot. My experience will probably stop there.

I just don't see where it's hard to believe that an animal would drop instantly when plastered in the shoulder/neck/head area with 8 or 9 .33 caliber projectiles doing about 1300 to 1400 fps. And inside 25 yards!

I do. I shot a boar....The one in the picture twice with buckshot at a range of 11 and 9 yards. I skinned and processed the animal. Both shots were good shots. The head shot did not penetrate the skull and the neck shot did not hit anything that would put the animal down on the spot. The 357 magnum put the animal down on the spot. I cannot speak to your experiences, only mine, and based on my limited experience I won't try buckshot again.

I have killed hogs with a 357 magnum, 44 magnum, 30-30, 270, 308, 30-06 300 WSM, and 300 Win Mag. I find that rifle rounds are entirely adequate for the task.

I killed 3 more hogs last Friday in the rain. All three were shot with a 300 Winchester magnum with the first to 80 and 120 pounds heart and lung, the last 250+ (Our scale only goes to 250 and he bottomed it out) in the head. The 250+ boar was easily twice as large as the hog in the picture of my previous post.

I am going hog hunting this weekend. I will let you all know how I do.


The moral of the story is sometimes they fall over sometimes they don't you simply can't make an always or never staement when it comes to hunting.

H&H hunter is correct.

Charles

Ian Riordan
February 10, 2006, 05:31 AM
I've had oo/sg's bounce off a hog and dropped them with a 357, who cares? hunt to live and carry a knife.

bigben
February 10, 2006, 10:38 PM
I've been sitting here reading this thread, I love to hog hunt and I do most of my hunting in thick cane breaks where 10 yrds is a long shot and you don't have a lot of time to place a shot, so I use 00 buck and have used it with great results... I've never had many run far if at all, but at the range I'm shooting I sometime put 2 loads of it on them before they can react.... If you guys want excitment try stalking hogs in thick cover... I have killed as many as 10 in a day in se OK

Para Bellum
September 29, 2006, 04:46 PM
Does this prove that hogs are tougher than elephants? Nope just that sometimes things go right down sometimes they don't.

Thanks folks, that was all god info!
Stay safe,
PB

springmom
September 29, 2006, 06:48 PM
Hubster put on the "Hunting University" show this afternoon, and I saw the president of CZ-USA drop an oryx where it stood; and saw the sales VP of TC do the same with a good size axis buck.

Sorry, but this is just not true.

Granted it won't always happen, and lots of deer will run for a little ways; but it DOES happen.

Springmom

Pointer
September 30, 2006, 09:31 AM
How come when a duck is properly with #6 or #4 shot...
You never see them fly another 100 yds before they fall...
Unless it was a poor hit? :rolleyes:

In my experience... at least 98% of well-hit animals have fallen within a few yards, if not on the very spot...

The other's were already excited by the hunting pressure or already alert to the hunters who shot them...

None of my properly hit animals have run off to hide...

...and the ones that I've seen run off, were usually poorly hit... :(

My advice? Use enough gun!

UniversalFrost
September 30, 2006, 04:52 PM
"told that no rifle-hit to the body, no matter whether .308, .300WinMag or .223 ever dropped any game he shot or has seen being shot. They all ran away, some far, some not so far but no animal was stopped. Not even with heart- or lung hits"


416 rigby does wonders. So does 444 or 450, even 30/30 hp will do it. Will let you know about 45/70 when the gun finally gets here.

Art Eatman
October 1, 2006, 09:36 AM
Two words that shouldn't be used about hunting: "Always" and "Never".

:D, Art

Mannlicher
October 5, 2006, 02:39 PM
beware of 'experts' armed with anecdotal facts.:D

Personally, I think your friend's opinions on this are not in line with what I have experienced, and what has been reported in the various media. I use a Springfield Armory SOCOM, and with Federal Classic 150 grain SP, the hogs pretty much drop where they are shot.

navajo0472
October 5, 2006, 02:57 PM
I have been hog hunting with a friend of mine at a hunting club in Florida and they have had numerous instant kills with handguns and rifles on some large hogs. While I was in Florida I went on a hunt with him and saw a guy shoot his hog with a .223 and the hog dropped and never moved while his brother's hog took two slugs from a 2o gauge before it dropped. My friend works as a guide for a hog hunting club in Okachobee.

bclark1
October 5, 2006, 05:36 PM
for my bit here, although it's been well said already... i can't speak for boar but game in general i had a clean heart shot on a whitetail with a 30-06 almost a year ago, and she went down so fast i didn't see it, although i did see some other deer heading into the woods. i walked down to look for blood and was pretty confused until i spotted her, there were still some corn stalks on the edge that'd obscured it a little. if that's not the proverbial ton of bricks i don't know what is.

Fat White Boy
October 7, 2006, 12:01 AM
My friend and I use .270's for hogs. Sometimes they drop like stones, sometimes they run a bit...

As far as lions and tigers in Africa, last time I checked, tweren't no tigers in Africa...

texfar
October 8, 2006, 08:50 AM
Have hunted hogs in west texas and can only tell you what has happened to me. With my 99 .284 I hit a hog at about 200 yards through both lungs and it ran at lease 100 yards. My friend, ranch owner, hit one about 250 lbs through the top of the heart full loadand iand 165 gr and it ran at least 200 yards. He thought he missed it and didn't even go after it. I found it the next day and photoed the shot placement. One about 350 lbs I hit at about 250 yards in a field with 165 gr .300 rem ultra loaded down a bit through the lungs and it traveled at least 150 yards. Most of the hogs I shoot drop, but as stated above they are like tanks. What my placement is these days is to break the shoulder when rifle shooting at distance and not go for heart/lung placement. By the way, they are normally moving slowly accross the field at any where from 100 to 400 yards away at a walk.

Rich Lucibella
October 8, 2006, 10:17 AM
What my placement is these days is to break the shoulder when rifle shooting at distance and not go for heart/lung placement.
Interesting. How does one "break" a hog's shoulder and what is the result?

http://pnu-museum.org/en/collections/collection_03h.aspx#
Rich

2rugers
October 8, 2006, 12:33 PM
Well Rich, you put a big enough bullet travelling at a high enough velocity low into the shield and the results are about the same as with Deer, Elk and Bear, they fall down, kick a little, and then slowly relax into death.

Rich Lucibella
October 8, 2006, 12:43 PM
Hmmm. Is that from a broken shoulder or from damage to the heart/lungs? And how does one aim for the "shoulder" while avoiding the heart and lungs?
Rich

2rugers
October 8, 2006, 01:13 PM
Q:1.The falling down or the dying part?
Q:2.As for Texfar's comment I do not know how he shoots for the shoulder and misses heart/lung. Extreme angle? Don't know.

Rich Lucibella
October 8, 2006, 01:18 PM
The falling down.
Is it from a "broken shoulder"?
Rich

2rugers
October 8, 2006, 01:43 PM
A broken shoulder does not always equal falling down or even certain death, but "a big enough bullet travelling at a high enough velocity" through BOTH, always does.

Rich Lucibella
October 8, 2006, 06:25 PM
The older I get, the further behind the times I find myself.

"Always"....that's pretty good. Gotta get me one of them there "always" calibers; or one of the ones that put hogs down by breaking their shoulders.
Rich

2rugers
October 8, 2006, 07:06 PM
Wellll...,they are not for just anybody. You really have to know how big a bullet and how fast you have to move it to do it everytime.

Rich Lucibella
October 8, 2006, 08:47 PM
You really have to know how big a bullet and how fast you have to move it to do it everytime.
Yup. It always seems to be that way. Lots of people seem to have The Secret. But nobody ever lets me or anyone I personally know in on the special secret recipe for those "everytime" guaranteed rounds. In fact, I'm surprised DoD doesn't take an interest in the knowledge offered here; we have this problem of our own military being hit by two legged game that was "dead on the first shot". Go figure.
Rich

Art Eatman
October 8, 2006, 09:54 PM
Folks probably hadn't oughta play with their food...

:D:D:D

Art

Rich Lucibella
October 8, 2006, 10:20 PM
oops!

2rugers
October 8, 2006, 10:44 PM
No secret Rich. use a big enough bullet and push it fast enough and it will break both shoulders and destroy what is necessary in between. DRT,honest, no-foolin.
As far as the DOD and their failure to provide our young men and women a big enough bullet and a cartridge that will push it fast enoughand the training on where to place said projectile, one can only assume their reasons.
I will add that a .223 at 3300 fps. using fmj. hitting com. on the jihadis will certainly not guarantee an instant dropor even certain death if a good medic is at hand.
But if they would like my advice on what will and where to put it, they need only ask.

Rich Lucibella
October 8, 2006, 11:10 PM
I think I got it now. Lots-O-Bullet and Lots-O-Velocity drops 'em like rocks every time. Thanks for the secret, 2rugers. I reserve the right to share it with my hunting pals.

Art-
You were so right. My education is now complete and I look forward to harvesting many hogs by breaking their shoulders. All it takes is "a big enough bullet and push it fast enough". They go "DRT,honest, no-foolin". Who'da thunkit?!!! ;)
Rich

2rugers
October 8, 2006, 11:58 PM
I would'a thunk a man with your well travelled hunting experience would have experienced this on hogs at least once by now Rich.!? Even if by mistake. If not your education is far from complete.
You almost sound skeptical.


P.S.Oh, you almost got it. Again, the correct formula is a big enough bullet, fast enough, through both shoulders you forgot that VERY important last part in your opening line. Also, not Lotso- anything, big enough and fast enough are the terms I used.

NB4ZOT
October 9, 2006, 10:40 AM
I too watched a show on OLN where they were hunting grizzlies in Alaska. The backup gun was a slug gun. I think the dude was hunting the grizzlies with a long bow http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif
:eek:

Art Eatman
October 9, 2006, 12:25 PM
:D:D:D

2rugers, you reckon maybe that what you're meaning isn't necessarily the way it's coming out in print? Seems to me ya gotta consider angles of shots and the difference between shoulder joints and shoulder blades when you say "shoulders", as well as the way a hog's bodily parts and pieces are assembled.

Most of us here have been at this game for more than just a day or two, with experiences ranging from ground squirrels to elephants, from BB guns to Great Big Bullets. :)

Art

Eghad
October 9, 2006, 12:44 PM
Well the big secret is actually "the look", when you take aim you have to use "the look" to get the animal to position itself for the shot. Then if you use lotsa bullet with lots powder and "the look" that wee beastey is goin down.