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threefivesevenmag
January 18, 2006, 10:56 PM
I got in an arguement today over a television program "Lost."

In it, a three person group armed with 1 Sig, 1 AK, and 2 1911s is surrounded by unseen island natives carrying torches. Their leader has another one of their friends held hostage with a pistol. He demands they drop their guns and leave the area and they will get their friend back alive. At first the trio protests, but then drops their weapons, gets the hostage back, and leaves unharmed.

My question is...would you ever drop your weapon? Even in this situation?

It is my belief that the moment you handover your weapons to an aggressive party is your quickest path to immediate pain/death. My friend said they did the right thing and had no chance of making it out alive being "surrounded" by a group of hostiles. I figure if you shoot and move quickly the surrounding party will have more to deal with than if you were an unarmed sap who they could do whatever they please with after your disarm.

Was I right in saying never drop your arms, even in this "impossible" situation my friend disagrees with? I mean, if you started to fire and move in the dark it wouldn't be simple for the surrounders (not even sure if they were armed) to be able to shoot completely accurately.

Opinions and theories all welcome.

joab
January 18, 2006, 11:06 PM
My question is...would you ever drop your weapon? Even in this situation? No, pull a Wyatt Earp maneuver and pick out the obvious leader and single him out for execution if they do not meet your demands.

Explain to them or him that if he kills the hostage there will be no reason not to kill him.

I was offered a job in Kuwait and Iraq awhile back.
My plan at the time was to carry multiple hi caps small caliber handguns.
I had no delusions of fighting my way out of any hopeless situation. It was simply to **** them off enough that they killed me on the spot instead of making sport of me later.
I think the same theory would apply here.

Before I am accused of spouting macho rhetoric again.
I don't see this plan of action as manly or heroic , but rather an example of self serving cowardice for which I would make no apologies in the hereafter.
I'm not afraid to die I'm scared silly of it hurting a lot

Optical Serenity
January 18, 2006, 11:20 PM
Not really sure what advice to give you, but the Wyatt Earp idea is a trip. :)

Most officers I know have a formulated plan on what to do in those type "hostage" scenarios...

mxwelch
January 18, 2006, 11:32 PM
You NEVER surrender your weapon. Instead on one possible victim, the gunman now has two.

joab
January 18, 2006, 11:33 PM
the Wyatt Earp idea is a tripIt worked for Kurt Douglas.

When you are in a no win situation, go out in a blaze of glory

OneInTheChamber
January 18, 2006, 11:34 PM
3 armed vs. 1 armed? No way; never. Even if you have a derringer and the other guy(s) have a machine gun.

You want my gun you can pry it out of my cold dead hands.

Chase

Half-Price Assassin
January 18, 2006, 11:49 PM
if you drop your gun your putting your absolute trust into your enemies hands. if someone has a gun on your friend or even loved one, and you drop your weapon, then you have forfitted all your pull in this ordeal. he can then kill your loved one, then kill you before you can pick up your gun. this is usually a no win case, but if you can convince him to let your partner go, and make him trust you, that you wont hurt him if he does, then you both might get what you want. but i wouldnt let go of my weapon. i know it would be hard not to if i found some creep holding a gun to my mothers head and yelling "drop it or shes dead", but you just cant do it. its kind of like the sleeper hold in wrestling, the best defence is to not get into it in the first place. be aware of your environment, and use your sixth sense when possible.

38SnubFan
January 18, 2006, 11:54 PM
I will NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, EVER!!!!! give up my weapon! At least if I'm armed, I still have a chance of fighting. If I'm unarmed, I'm at the will of my attacker.

I'm sorry, but I'm at NOBODY'S whim, except for my Lord and Saviour.

-38SnubFan

DTakas
January 19, 2006, 02:14 AM
I’ve never negotiated a hostage situation but in college I did an independent study course on hostage negotiation and one of the rules of negotiation is never give any weapon to the hostage taker. Especially not yours. For all you know they don’t even have a real gun they could be bluffing and you just blew your shot of ending things without anyone dying. Not to mention if I had a rifle at point blank range I wouldn’t be afraid to take the shot. But it would be wise to inform him if he kills his hostage he will definitely get killed in return.

stratus
January 19, 2006, 04:15 AM
I'm not afraid to die I'm scared silly of it hurting a lot
lol, I heard that.

azurefly
January 19, 2006, 04:58 AM
I believe you were right in maintaining that it's stupid, and just short of suicidal, to drop your weapon in that case.

If you think you are in a bad spot when you're armed and surrounded, how in the hell do you think you improve your lot -- OR retain any kind of bargaining chip -- if you give up your weapons?!

That's just MORONIC. The characters/writers were moronic for doing it; but what's worse is that people who have the luxury of considering the situation at leisure could not see the abject danger in giving up your weapons to people who already are threatening you/your group with death.

-azurefly

Weeg
January 19, 2006, 05:54 AM
That whole show is moronic.


:barf:

pickpocket
January 19, 2006, 08:05 AM
Hell yes I would give up my weapon....


If it was in the script and I was being paid $100k per episode :)



My whole squad over in Iraq promised each other that if we happened to be the poor bastards that some insurgents tried to take hostage that the next time America saw our smiling faces would be on CNN with a KA-BAR and a hand-grenade, not on Al-Jazeera with a hood and an AK at our skulls.

Never give up the weapon, boys. They may keep their promise, but then again, they may not....and then where are you at?


...I'm not afraid to die I'm scared silly of it hurting a lot

True...so true. Can I steal that? LOL

NDTerminator
January 19, 2006, 08:35 AM
Drop or give up your weapon? In a word, NO! In two words, NO, NEVER!...

Weeg
January 19, 2006, 10:26 AM
Hell yes I would give up my weapon....


If it was in the script and I was being paid $100k per episode


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


:D

The British Soldier
January 19, 2006, 10:56 AM
Never drop your weapon - you're a statistic if you do and the bad guys never honour their word; they live to use that 'Terminator' line in their finest germanic accent

"I Lied!"

If it comes to a fight or light moment, shoot the one who is talking the most; if anyone moves shoot him next. Fairbairn and Sykes, who characters who designed the F-S Commando knife for WW2 Army Commandos, stated emphatically in their training that:

"When you are faced with numerous armed enemy, shoot the first one that talks - he could be a catalyst for disaster, then shoot the first one that moves - he's started to think and is, therefore, dangerous."

Two interesting individuals who materialised from the Far East at a time when their country needed unusual people to take a devastating style of warfare to the enemy. There is a fascinating tale about their arrival at Wilkinson & Sons [the Swordmakers] to talk about their design for a fighting knife for the Army; when lost for words on a design point, one of them grabbed a ruler and stalked the other around the office. It was done in such a way that Messrs Wilkinson and Son never forgot it!

Strange how, in times of all out war, such people appear, do the deed and then are forgotten because their skillset is unsuitable for peace.

shield20
January 19, 2006, 11:16 AM
Saw the show - yelled "Don't do it!" then, and I still agree. Jack should have moved in on the bearded guy, put the AK up against HIS head, and tell those torch bearing clowns that we WILL leave, but we are taken Kate and will NOT give you are weapons". (but then Jack shouldn't have gone running through the jungle screaming for Mike when they had an idea what they are up against either).

My PD sargent told us way back when then if any of us were being held at gun point, too &^%king bad - he was not given up his weapon. I agree.

pickpocket
January 19, 2006, 11:30 AM
The British Soldier:
...shoot the one who is talking the most...

HAHAHAHA!! Wyatt Earp humor from a Brit...I love it!


Strange how, in times of all out war, such people appear, do the deed and then are forgotten because their skillset is unsuitable for peace.
Those people are always there, and they are always considered stains on the white linen of civilized society. However, people eventually realize that it takes a certain character to do a nation's dirty work....and a thankless job it is, at that.
Could be why so many of us feel so lost after returning, eh? Can't really market my skillset :)

Derius_T
January 19, 2006, 12:29 PM
Never give up your weapon. I refuse, REFUSE, REFUSE, to put myself at the mercy of ANYONE if I can help it. Let them know if they kill the hostage, they immediately follow them. Cowards that take hostages are just that.....cowards. When faced with absolute death, most will opt for life.

I'd inform him tht his buddies may kill me, but I will DEFINATELY take his ass with me.....

Chris Phelps
January 19, 2006, 12:59 PM
First one to throw a threat my way dies. People who threaten are almost always the leaders of the group. In any event, during a hostage situation, I refuse to negotiate. Especially for the one thing left keeping me alive.

GeorgeF
January 19, 2006, 01:29 PM
As a complete aside, I think its funny that Hollywood throws in the 'hammer cocking' sound all over the place. Wasnt the Hillbilly Jim character holding a Luger to Kate's head? And then he cocked the hammer. Now THATS an interesting Luger!

Chris Phelps
January 19, 2006, 01:46 PM
Kind of like the scenes with the BG using a shotgun... you find yourself yelling at the good guys to hold still for another 3 seconds... the BG has pumped the shotgun so many times that it should be out of shells by now.

bclark1
January 19, 2006, 02:21 PM
i like the show, but their handling of weapons is utterly foolish and for the most part unrealistic if you actually expect people to be in a survival situation. even around a bunch of half-wit bleeding hearts, you'd have to view firearms as you're most precious tool on the island. though i missed the latest episode, i'm stunned that with their new cache of weapons no one is carrying BUGs. i never bothered to inventory what was in the bunker but i saw several long guns and pistols, why not conceal a pistol and brandish the long gun? buys you options, including the ability to surrender one after dropping the mag or something. the show would be getting more boring with me there though, the cast would be down to half of what it is now.

pickpocket
January 19, 2006, 02:41 PM
bclark1:
...why not conceal a pistol and brandish the long gun?

Well, sir.....because it's Hollywood. And in Hollywood, everyone knows that pistols are always used as primary weapons...I mean, it's just so much sexier.
Rifles are only used if the alien is bigger than a dumptruck....standard rules. :D

westphoenix
January 19, 2006, 02:42 PM
I agree, never give up your weapon.

I can't understand it either. If I was on that island I would carry (all the time) no less then a rifle (most likely scoped) with 2 hand guns and a few hundred rounds of ammo.
The other may think you're crazy, until the poop hits the fan and they are looking for your help.

I like the show, hate the smoke cloud thing. Those are the noisest guns I have ever heard.
click click click clack click, everytime they pull one out.

Mr. James
January 19, 2006, 04:06 PM
Read the The Onion Field, by Joseph Wambaugh.

Mannlicher
January 19, 2006, 06:41 PM
I ain't dropping anything.

Dwight55
January 19, 2006, 07:12 PM
The old memory may not be correct but I think it may have been Charles Bronson in one of those mid 70's modern westerns, . . . he was a bad dude who knew martial arts, . . . got into some kind of out West, Native American religious experience, . . . then had to do battle with a bunch of drugged out hippies with a lever action rifle.

The hippie bad dude was right when he told him "You can't kill all of us" so he just killed the leader (dead between the eyes, . . . broke his white sun glasses in half), . . . then addressed the second in command, . . . and all of a sudden our hero got whatever it was he wanted.

It ain't often you learn something useful from a movie, . . . but that one I never forgot. I still think it is the best answer, . . . shoot the talker, . . . then shoot the ones that move, . . . pretty soon you'll be in charge.

May God bless,
Dwight

joab
January 19, 2006, 07:24 PM
Wasn't that Tom McGlaughlin playing Billy Jack in The Born Losers

joab
January 19, 2006, 07:28 PM
Just thought of this

Remember The Wild Bunch

holden shot the general who was doing the talkiing, then after a long pause Ernie shot the first one that went for his gun.

but that didn't turn out so good for them, Nevermind

Dwight55
January 19, 2006, 07:35 PM
Don't know for sure, Joab, . . . been too long ago, . . . was a once seen movie in a drive in on Friday nite.

I just remember the good guy shot the bad hippy between the eyes and busted those great big wide white frame sun glasses, . . . the scene was shot in real slow motion, . . . the dead hippy falls over a couch, . . . bounces, . . . hits the floor, . . . bounces some more. Then I think they showed it again in real speed.

Anyway, . . . rest of them hippies didn't want no more to do with a lever action dude trying to be like the Indians or something.

May God bless,
Dwight

mjolnir
January 20, 2006, 08:54 PM
The "drop your weapon" scene is just another cliche used by lazy leftist scriptwriters that have never handled a firearm in their lives. It saves on having to actually think of something original. There's something masochistically appealing to the leftist mindset about surrender and submission to evil...the hero having to sustain humiliation/defeat before achieving final glorious victory.

Humbug. Life isn't a flugging storyline where you get to write the ending.

Like anything else involving Hollywood & guns...

Do any of us remember, sing praises to, or have mementos of the Vichy French?

Or do we admire and remember those who've faced that decision for real...the Spartans, Romans, Vikings, Alamo-ans, etc.?

GUNSMOKE45441
January 20, 2006, 09:11 PM
Thousands of Sheeple saw that brainwashing, and believed that if you surrender you weapons, you will be ok.
Shoot the talker!!

siotwo
January 20, 2006, 09:30 PM
Wasn't that Tom McGlaughlin playing Billy Jack

Yup, Billy Jack

One tin soldier rides awaaayyy....(billy jack song)

RioShooter
January 20, 2006, 09:30 PM
My question is...would you ever drop your weapon? Even in this situation?

Thanks for the question. It's always driven me crazy watching TV and movies when an armed individual surrenders their weapon. I usually scream at the TV, NOOOOOOO!!!!!
:mad:

Why even carry a weapon if you're willing to give it up?

joab
January 20, 2006, 10:08 PM
One tin soldier rides awaaayyy....(billy jack song)That song has been running through my head all day. I didn't make the connection until I read this

Bender711
January 20, 2006, 10:40 PM
lets see are there less then 18 BG's if so then not a chance
if there is more, im kill 17 of them and saving one for me.

or i could just pull a chck norris and round house kick them to the face1!!

azurefly
January 21, 2006, 03:45 AM
Yup, Billy Jack

One tin soldier rides awaaayyy....(billy jack song)


I guess I'm gonna have to go out and get Billy Jack on DVD, then. Never seen it, but it sounds worthwhile for this one scene alone -- as a training video! :D


As far as, "Drop your weapon!" goes -- it must be understood that it's only for bad guys to be told that by good guys: society is supposed to understand that when a good guy forces a bad guy to drop his weapon, it's to take him in unharmed (otherwise he'd just shoot him, right?). When a bad guy forces a good guy to drop his weapon, what would one expect the bad guy would do then? "Take him in"? That's not the job of bad guys, so no. It would most likely be to kill the good guy without being shot at.

-azurefly

joab
January 21, 2006, 08:02 AM
I guess I'm gonna have to go out and get Billy Jack on DVD, then. Never seen it, but it sounds worthwhile for this one scene alone -- as a training video!There was a series of them in the early 70s

Billy Jack was a blue eyed indian that left the reservation to join the Green Berets and learn karate.
He came back and kicked people in the face for killing horses

Despite a deep personal grudge against the star I still love those movies

You can always walk up to the leader and tell him
"I'm gonna take this leg and kick you on that side of your face. And there's nothing you can do about it"