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Art Eatman
January 15, 2006, 08:57 AM
Too many crooks, and U.S. fines can be heavy.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10841107/site/newsweek/

"- Jocelyn Chiwenga is not a woman to be taken lightly. The wife of Gen. Constantine Chiwenga, commander-in-chief of Zimbabwe’s army, Mrs. Chiwenga has earned a reputation in her own right as a vicious enforcer for President Robert Mugabe and his ruling Zimbabwe African National Union-Popular Front (ZANU-PF)."

And

"She also knows how to use her power. About three years ago, Chiwenga won an auction for a coveted lease on a 220-square-mile tract of bush, owned by Zimbabwe’s Parks and Wildlife Authority, located just outside Hwange National Park in southwest Zimbabwe."

And

"Last November, the Treasury Department added Chiwenga, 50, to a list of 128 Mugabe relatives and cronies who are “undermining democratic processes or institutions in Zimbabwe.” The Treasury Department has blocked the assets of those on the list and established penalties of up to $250,000 and 10 years’ imprisonment for anyone who does business with them."

There are others whose tracts also are used by American hunters, and highly-advertised guides who take clients to those areas. I don't guess it matters if you have nothing to do for a ten-year period, and a loose quarter-mil hanging around...

The entire article is worth a read.

Art

Rich Lucibella
January 15, 2006, 09:04 AM
Heading over this fall.

Had I read this article prior to last week, conscience would have caused me to think twice about plunking down the deposit. However, I've spent it in RSA and Tanzania which are hardly bastions of free enterprise.

As to the legalities, there's talk that the US is going to tighten up on hunters going to Zim. In order to do that, however, they'd have to be pretty specific as to outfitters and camps that are off limits. A hunter has no way of knowing where his money is going, once he hands it over to an outfitter.

Finally, and paradoxically, the only chance of survival for the wild game over their is hunters....or, at least, hunter revenue. Just a few decades ago, Kenya was the jewel of Africa, in terms of game. Once the Communist government banned all hunting, the herds were slaughtered wholesale by poachers and government people for meat and ivory. Today, it's all but a wasteland when we look at the game numbers.

With hunting dollars going in, there remains a faint hope that those profiting will realize it's a sustainable income, if done right....eg: Tanzania. Still, I'm not real hopeful. But true African hunting will become a thing of the past in most of our lifetimes....experience it before it disappears.

Rich

Art Eatman
January 15, 2006, 10:04 AM
"Finally, and paradoxically, the only chance of survival for the wild game over their is hunters....or, at least, hunter revenue."

Amen. But that's not really a paradox. Any asset which has a monetary value has some degree of protection. So, it's in the financial interest of those in authority to offer protection and a management system. No different from what Merril Lynch does. Since this is a common-sense issue, it's beyond the thought capabilities of many governmental types, not to mention the bunny-huggers.

Two points: I'd check to see if the regulation speaks to "knowledge and intent". Then, to provide some self-defense against prosecution, I'd get a signed statement from the guide that the area of the hunt is not controlled by a proscribed person.

Art

FirstFreedom
January 15, 2006, 11:27 AM
But true African hunting will become a thing of the past in most of our lifetimes....experience it before it disappears

That's quite disheartening.... :(

12-34hom
January 15, 2006, 11:30 AM
Sounds like a good place to become the hunted instead of being the hunter.

Statistics don't mean much when your dead.

12-34hom.

Rich Lucibella
January 16, 2006, 02:53 PM
Sounds like a good place to become the hunted instead of being the hunter.
Statistics don't mean much when your dead.
September 19, 2001 (8 days after the balloon went up) found me in Dar Es Salaam alone for four days waiting on my guns. Good time.....truly.

We all have to go some time, Charlie. ;) Fact is, thousands of Americans hunt Zim every year. When was the last time you heard of an incident? RSA is only slightly more stable these days; Joburg is far more dangerous than the Zim outback. Besides, the last time in RSA I came back with the African version of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. There's stuff everywhere that'll kill you, when it's your time.

If this becomes my time, which I highly doubt, please ask them to put this on my headstone:
"Hunting Cape Buff was worth the risk." :D
Rich

12-34hom
January 16, 2006, 03:42 PM
Rich, Art made this post over on THR also. H&H hunter replied to this thread, it's worth a read, he advises not to go also.

I believe this gent hunts professionally and i don't think he would advise not going unless substantial risk was entailed to those hunting that area.

But if you decide to go =Take care - Happy New Year.

Charlie.

Rich Lucibella
January 16, 2006, 05:25 PM
Charlie-
H&H is one of my hunting partners in Texas. He's hunted Africa several times, as I have. And he posts here frequently. Besides, you're talking about a guy who took his wife and kids to RSA for a hunt! Greg, wanna chime in here?

Just as Tanz is not Tanz, is not Tanz; Zim is not Zim, is not Zim. In other words everyones experiences will be different.

The outfitter in Zim is well known to close friends of our party. And I always take an Ace-in-the-Hole in the form of RSA Outfitter and good friend, Danie Van Graan. He still hunts up there 3-4 times each year; he's living proof that "native" is not synonymous with "black" and I'd let him watch my back anywhere (I know, 'cuz I've seen me do it!)

Rich

Art Eatman
January 16, 2006, 05:33 PM
I probably should have titled the thread "Be careful WHERE you hunt in Zim."

Huntin's huntin', but 10 years and a $250K fine sucks.

Art

Wisby
January 17, 2006, 04:30 AM
I gotta get me a second job or something I have been wanting to hunt Africa since I saw Haitari with John Wayne when I was little. It's on my list of things to do before I die hope I can get around to before it's gone.

Art Eatman
January 17, 2006, 09:50 AM
To me, stuff like this is complex. Lemme sorta walk both sides of the street for a bit:

1. Mugabe and his thugocracy are an evil bunch. They're bankrupting the country. If it finally goes down the tubes, maybe a better group can take over. I dunno. But, bringing foreign hard currencies into Zimbabwe puts off that day of reckoning.

2. Anybody who's developed a good working relationship with a professional hunter has invested time and money and effort. One's money to that hunter's fees might enable him to leave a bad situation, among other isssues. And, good friends are hard to find.

3. "See it before it's gone." Lord knows the U.S. is bad enough. One problem with getting old is looking through tears at what used to be. I can show you places where there once were no miles and miles of condos along Florida beaches. Where I caught tarpon and kings and mangrove snapper and snook. Areas where at night in the west there were no lights anywhere...Good fishing and hunting within a few miles of what are now major metroplexes...

IOW, it's all complex, and I for one have no answers...

Art

Capt Charlie
January 17, 2006, 12:59 PM
"See it before it's gone." Lord knows the U.S. is bad enough. One problem with getting old is looking through tears at what used to be. I can show you places where there once were no miles and miles of condos along Florida beaches. Where I caught tarpon and kings and mangrove snapper and snook. Areas where at night in the west there were no lights anywhere...Good fishing and hunting within a few miles of what are now major metroplexes...
Plus one, Art............. plus one :( .